OT - Frustration with J word bullets and M1 Rifle

[lurch]

This isn't exactly a cast boolit related topic, but maybe somebody here knows the answer.

I was trying to develop a J word load for my M1 for foul weather hunting and to let a friend borrow while we are hunting together (silly fool sold his '06 to pay some bills - I'd lose a few pounds first). Anyhow, I first tried this a couple of years ago using some Nosler 150 gr Btips with starting powder charges of 4895. I don't remember the specific charge but it was pretty well down the scale. Off to the range and fire a couple. The first looks OK, the second shows a pretty flat primer and the third has the primer pocket open up enough to drop the cup in my hand with a little jiggling. The bore interior at the muzzle of the rifle was well coated in guilding metal. My father was with me when this was going on. He got his '03-A3 out. We tried that same load in that rifle with about the same results - decent looking first leading up to a gas leak around the primer. Being gluttons for punishment, we tried the same load again in a Rem 700. Absolutely no problems at all in that gun. Load was indeed on the light side and there were no pressure signs at all.

Fast forward to this afternoon and I thought about trying this again with a different bullet. This time the Sierra 168gr HPBT. The load for today was 47 gr. BL-C(2) - not quite a start load, but should not be terribly warm either according to the Hodgdon web data. Firs shot looked good, second shot had a pretty flat primer. Quit while I was ahead and the rifle was still in one piece... The bore at the muzzle has a decent amount of guilding metal present. It's almost as if the bullets are galling and getting harder and harder to push down the barrel.

Anybody ever seen this apparent escalating pressure in a military bore? Ball rounds (RA 57 - older than I am) and full power handloads using military style bullets (WIN 147gr FMJBT) can be shot all day with no issues - even after the experiment with bothe the Noslers 150 Btip or the Sierra this afternoon. Am I overlooking something? I'm surely at a loss over this one.

Anybody have a suggestion on a hunting style bullet that has a chance at working in this gun?

Thanks,

Kurt

[AZ-Stew]

I use 50.0 H-335 under a Sierra 150 GameKing spitzer boat tail and a standard CCI LR primer. I've never had any problems with it.

The first thing you should do is get the barrel clean. Really clean. Then have a gunsmith check the muzzle for crown damage, and the bore for any other irregularities. I can't imagine any other reason for copper accumulation at the muzzle, so long as your loads don't run any faster than 2900 fps from a 24 inch barrel, and you start with a clean, smooth bore.

Regards,

Stew

[dominicfortune00]

In my '03A3's and my Garands, I take ball ammo, pull the ball, and seat a 150 grain Hornady flat base spire point and crimp it.

Shoots the same as ball for me.

I've hit groundhogs as far away as 190 yards using the iron sights on one of my 4 groove Smith Corona '03A3's and this load.

If you can work up a load using ball and 4895, then switch the bullet to a 150 grain Hornady flat base spire point, I'm sure it will shoot fine for you.

[HeavyMetal]

Suggest miking the Sierra bullets see if there "fat".

Then slug the bore, if you haven't already, cause something don't compute!

[StarMetal]

That's a toughie. First I'd say the jacket composition of the Nosler and Sierra are lots different from you RA 57 bullets. Second I'll bet the friction bearing surface of the Nosler and Sierra are more then the RA 57. Consider the RA 57 has a cannelure groove on the bullet and that's a non friction area so don't count it. Third I'd say the Remington 700 has a button rifled barrel with narrower lands and groove, more of them too and I'll bet the bore (not the groove diameter) on the Model 700 is a wee larger. I'd say the rifling in the M1 and 03 are cut rifling. The Remington is more then likely smoother too. May be a difference in the chambers between the two military rifles and the Model 700. Try this, take case fired in the 700 and see if it will chamber in either of the military rifles without resizing it. You didn't mention if the 03 had guilding metal at the muzzle like the M1, did it?

Joe

[MtGun44]

Any chance you neglected to trim the cases?

Otherwise, how about mil brass with civvy load data? Mil brass typically has a significantly
smaller interior volume, which will increase pressures.

Bill

[405]

I've seen that once before or at least something similar. There is some chance that the shoulder is over running the headspace datum in the chamber allowing the end of the neck to crimp onto the bullet as the cartridge goes to full battery. The neck crimp scrapes off some jacket that is deposited down bore. It also increases pressure depending upon the amount of the crimp- and likely varies case to case. Like MtGun44 said, you might try to trim back the cases so the neck mouths won't hit the end of the neck chamber.

[Echo]

No experience with this problem, but based on the above, check the length of the fired brass. Should be no more than 2.494 - less is OK. If between 2.494 and 2.484, then check the depth of the chamber, to the end of the neck. Should be at least 2.495.

Hope this helps...

[runfiverun]

check the case neck length good idea.
my suggestion is to go shoot the first one again the open your bolt and take out the next round and see if they[bullets] are being pushed in the cases.
neck tension and no crimp may be your problem here.

[garandsrus]

Are you single loading or are the rounds in the magazine/enbloc clip (depending on which rifle you are shooting!) ? If the rounds are not single loaded, I am wondering if the bullet is getting pushed into the case when the rifle cycles or recoils. This would cause increased pressure, possibly gas leaks, and who knows what else.

John

[lurch]

Are you single loading or are the rounds in the magazine/enbloc clip

I am allowing the action to cycle and feed the rounds from the enbloc clip. I did worry about pushing the bullets back as there is no cannelure to crimp to. Rounds that were cycled in by the action (fired a round, pulled the one now in the chamber out and measured) were the same length as they were before being chambered. Checked this a couple of times in the first attempt and once for this attempt.

check the length of the fired brass...chamber depth

Brass lengths:


New unfired IMI used for the loads: 2.482 - 2.484, trimmed & chamfered.

IMI after firing: 2.490, both of today's on the dot. Looks like the grew .006" or so. Wonder if that's indicative of a little too much head space in the rifle...

Fired RA57: 2.487 - 2.495

I'm not sure how I would check the chamber depth. To me the rear datum will be somewhere in free space slightly behind the barrel and kind of hard to get an accurate fix on. Suggestions since I don't have a set of go/no go gauges (which wouldn't get me the neck to head dimension anyway)?

Sierra bullet diameter:

Running 0.3083 to 0.3084 (using a real mic, not a guessing stick) Seems fine to me. Have not slugged the barrel. Added to the to-do list.

There is some chance that the shoulder is over running the headspace datum in the chamber allowing the end of the neck to crimp onto the bullet as the cartridge goes to full battery.

That is a good thought. I used a collet puller to yank the bullet from the cartridge that got chambered when I decided enough was enough. There are no untoward marks on the bullet from the case mouth. Similarly, the case shows no sign of running into the the end of the chamber - no bright marks.

Mil brass

The IMI brass is Mil spec. We have shot some of it in a Rem 700 without incident using the same loads that were giving trouble in the M1 and 03. That leads me to believe that the load in and of itself is not responsible for the high pressure in the mil guns. First round from a relatively clean bore is also OK from the mil guns. It's the subsequent rounds that start getting scary.

Clean bore

For today's shoot, the bore started as clean as I know how to get it - no blue gunk coming out after a soak in wipe out. A few ball rounds were fired to be sure the rifle knew where the paper was and then on to the Sierras with aforementioned screwball results.


The bore friction suggestion is along my line of thinking at this time. Now granted, this particular gun is not exactly a show piece. The bore is "dark" when clean indicating that it is a little rough. Yes Joe, the 03 had a good thick layer of copper in it too.

I may have to make a trip to the gun shop while I'm still at my Dad's (when I get home, I won't have a back yard range to use) and see about a box of Hornady 150 flat base. I'll try a couple of those if I can get the goo out of the barrel before the end of the week. Thank heaven for wipe out. If that doesn't work I guess i"ll scrub it out again and send it to a good smith. Might just bite the bullet and get it re-barreled too.


Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Kurt

[garandsrus]

Kurt,

I have used quite a bit of IMI 30-06 brass and have never had a problem with it.

John

[405]

Since it sounds very similar to an instance I dealt with in an 06, this does sound like a headspace and/or over-length case issue. One kinda masks the other. The shallow shoulder angle in the 06 family of cases has a little built in excess headspace anyway. That coupled with any excess headspace in the gun creates a compounding situation. Even if the cases are trimmed to the normal length, say .010 under the chamber length, the compounded headspace could still allow the cartridge to run farther into the chamber and the neck mouth could be crimping onto the bullet. Those things together could show or cause the variable flattened primers, variable pressure signs and the excess copper fouling down the bore. The excess copper fouling of course can be caused by any number of things. The variable pressure signs are telling though. Might try trimming cases to a full .020 under chamber length and only partially re-sizing the fire formed cases to give maximum headspace control. In addition to above might also try some bullets with a crimp groove and crimping into the groove with a light roll crimp. And could help to lightly chamfer inside and outside of case neck mouth.

......Follow up on a hunting style bullet for the Garand. I think one of the least expensive "hunting" bullets for the Garand would be the old style Remington Core Lokts in either 150 or 165 grain. They do fine with a MV of around 2500 fps. Those bullets fit the pressure curve preference with the 4895 type powder in the Garand. They are cannelured so a bonus for the light roll crimp.

[lurch]

...Might try trimming cases to a full .020 under chamber length and only partially re-sizing the fire formed cases to give maximum headspace control.

I'll try this sometime in the coming week after I get back home. The rifle is still full of goo as I didn't get around to starting cleaning until last night. A couple of rounds into the ground out behind the house might get the neighbor's attention [smilie=1:

In addition to above might also try some bullets with a crimp groove and crimping into the groove with a light roll crimp. And could help to lightly chamfer inside and outside of case neck mouth.

A cannelured bullet is an option I might investigate. The cases are chamfered already and will be again after a little more trim. That's SOP for me.

[chevyiron420]

i dont know what the problem is but i am watching this thread because i have noticed a big increase of copper fouling in every gun i shoot jackets in except one. my M95M steyr 8x57 is the only gun i shoot sierra bullets in and its fine, but all others get hornady and all of them are copper fouling like crazy.[smilie=b:

[lurch]

I got the fouling out in time to send a few down range before packing up and heading home. I had a pristinely clean bore to start with. This time I started with some (ancient) Sierra 150 spitzer flat base. Load progression was 3 shots each of 45, 46 and 47 gr. BL-C(2). All these looked OK. A couple were showing more pressure than the others, but nothing that looked alarming.

Since that went OK, I tried some more of the 165gr, Sierra HPBT, 3 shots each at 44, 45, 46 and 47 grains BL-C(2). By the time I got to the 47 grain string, the barrel was getting very noticeably fouled. In fact fouling was noted as colored lands at first, progressing to more and more surface coverage as shooting continued. The first 47gr shot gave me a severely flattened primer with a little extrusion into the firing pin hole. Note that the previous 46gr. string showed normal pressure with rounded edge primers.

For grins (& possibly puckers) I took the remaining two cartridges with the 165gr Sierra and 47gr. charge and pulled the bullet. I seated a couple more of the 150 gr Sierra spitzers on top. Shot one and got a flat primer. Fired the second and got a minor gas leak around the primer.

During this session a total of 22 rounds were fired with the last 2 resulting pressure signs from a load that was fine for shots 7-9. While this time it took a little longer for the pressure signs to show up, I also started form the pristine barrel - not the case previously as the rifle had had a few ball rounds through it before the commercial bullets. I didn't chrono all the shots. The first I chrono'ed was single round I fired with 47gr BL-C(2) and the 165 grain Sierra. Velocity for that was 2650. The 22nd round was 45gr powder with a 165 Sierra (had one extra that I made up before I realized it). That round went 2395 and showed pressure signs as well - flat primer and a very little primer cup extrusion into the firing pin hole, but no gas leak.

About all I can conclude is that I have a barrel that fouls very quickly, to the point of being dangerous, with commercial bullets in the span of a very few shots. Probably the result of some corrosive priming residue left in the bore at some point along the line. The fouling gets thick. At the muzzle (only place I can readily observe it) I can see what appear to be "cake frosting marks" for lack of a better term. Imagine spearing a stiff cake frosting with a knife. When the frosting under the knife is used up, you get a thin, jagged edge where it quit. I can see something that looks like this (albeit on a much smaller scale) near the muzzle if the light is right and I look closely - no magnifying glass needed.

Here are a few poor quality images of the muzzle. You can't see much except for the extent of the coloration imparted by the fouling. (cheap camera, can't do manual focus). The pictures are big, so I'll just post a link to a picasa web album for those interested.


http:// picasaweb.google.com/kurthesse/M1Muzzle?feat=directlink

As I see it at this point, I can stick to military style bullets exclusively (Ball rounds, reloads using my considerable stock of WIN 147gr FMJ) or I can re-barrel. Me being me, I'll probably opt for the re-barrel job. Next question is, do I want to try it myself or get a good smith to do it.... Time to study up. :coffee:



Forgot to add - I checked all the fired cases in a wilson case gauge. The all go in just fine and the head and neck are where the gauge says they are supposed to be...

[405]

You might try lapping the bore. Lots of elbow grease with something like 600 grit compound or even finer JB compound to smooth up bore. Might help, might not. I don't think that the copper fouling will cause such an increase in pressure. You might be confusing flattened primers with pressure?--- particularly if using near starting load charge. Headspace can casue false increased pressure signs where pressure has not increased much. What happens is the cartridge over runs the headspace stop (datum ring) on the shoulder... primer fires.... primer backs out.... cartridge is pushed farther forward.... case walls stick to chamber as normal pressure builds... case stretches rearward re-seating and flattening primer.... showing excess pressure signs when in reality the pressure is normal. After a few such reloadings such cases might split just ahead of web. Don't know if that is what is going on but is a possibility.

As I described in first post... still possible the case is over-runnning the shoulder datum stop enough to crimp the case mouth onto the bullet just as the bullet is pushed forward as the charge fires. That could account for any real increase in pressure and could account for the excess fouling near muzzle as there is an excess of brass and copper scraped off and vaporized at the ring of the crimp. Several things may be at play. This one may take some work to sort or eliminate each possibility. Things I'd try before re-barrel... lap bore, check headspace, check chamber length and trim case to account for over-running of case mouth into rear edge of throat... partial resize fired cases only enough so a cartridge easily enters chamber. Good luck.