Swaging cartridge case bases

[Danth]

Hello All: I am attempting to make 6.5 Arisaka from 270 Winchester cases. The book of Cartridge Conversions states one should swage the base to .447" from .470". What's the best way to do this? I tried using the 6.5 sizing die, but end up pulling the rim right off the case in spite of using several different lubes. Thanks for suggestions. Danth

[StarMetal]

Hello All: I am attempting to make 6.5 Arisaka from 270 Winchester cases. The book of Cartridge Conversions states one should swage the base to .447" from .470". What's the best way to do this? I tried using the 6.5 sizing die, but end up pulling the rim right off the case in spite of using several different lubes. Thanks for suggestions. Danth

If it's quite some amount to swage down (and it doesn't take a lot to be large) you can't use a sizer die. You're lucky you just pulled the rim off case because normally you will crack a die. New to have a special swage die for doing that. To save you lots of work and frustration why don't you just buy brass from Grafs & Sons?

Joe

[Bent Ramrod]

Starmetal is right. Generally you need a hydraulic press with a set of dies that swages the base down in 0.005" or so stages. The punch needs to have a projection that fills the primer pocket so the head and pocket aren't distorted by the operation. It's a lot more trouble than it's worth, if the brass is available.

[Danth]

Hi all: Thanks for the replies. Yes, I agree buying brass when available is the way to go. I enjoy making cases from other available caliber cases, but this one had me stumped. In Cartridge Conversions it was stated the bases be swaged, but I couldn't find a way to accomplish this. Another alternative was to form the case as far as possible, then turn the case base down to .447". The author feels the remaining base metal can be removed without weakening the case. Can this be so? Thanks, Dan

[elk hunter]

Hi all: Thanks for the replies. Yes, I agree buying brass when available is the way to go. I enjoy making cases from other available caliber cases, but this one had me stumped. In Cartridge Conversions it was stated the bases be swaged, but I couldn't find a way to accomplish this. Another alternative was to form the case as far as possible, then turn the case base down to .447". The author feels the remaining base metal can be removed without weakening the case. Can this be so? Thanks, Dan

Dan,

I would be very careful about turning down the head of a case as a minor miscalculation would leave you with a very thin case section in front of the web which could cause a case separation at that point.

If you have access to a lathe you can make the necessary base reduction dies. I recently made a set to make 6.5 Carcano cases from 308. If you are interested in making the die set let me know and I will PM info on how I made mine.

regards,

Elk Hunter

[Danth]

That would be great. I'm really interested in now this is done. Thanks much, Dan

[StarMetal]

Just basically a die that is made of strong enough steel and thick enough to resist the stress and cracking, then a mandrel to keep moved metal from making the primer pocket smaller. Eventually the brass moves towards the inside the case, making the capacity just a tad less, but you end up with a good thick strong case.

Joe

[kawalekm]

Dan
I looked at the case dimensions and although the case body is .447", the rim .466". What I would think might be possible is the take the primer punch out of your die body, turn the die upside down, and tap .308 Winchester cases into your 6.5 mm die. You would have to lay a piece of steel over the case and tap it in till the rim just reached to die body. You would then turn the die over, put a steel punch through the primer stem hole and drive the swagged case back out. I remember reading a Gun Digest article on making .41 shorts out of .45ACP cases this way so the author could have light loads for his .41 magnum revolver.

At that point you'd have a case with a body of .447" but with a rim of .473". I would think you could chuck each case you formed into a drill and turn down the rim to .466" with the light touch of a bastard file
What do you think?
Michael

[StarMetal]

Dan
I looked at the case dimensions and although the case body is .447", the rim .466". What I would think might be possible is the take the primer punch out of your die body, turn the die upside down, and tap .308 Winchester cases into your 6.5 mm die. You would have to lay a piece of steel over the case and tap it in till the rim just reached to die body. You would then turn the die over, put a steel punch through the primer stem hole and drive the swagged case back out. I remember reading a Gun Digest article on making .41 shorts out of .45ACP cases this way so the author could have light loads for his .41 magnum revolver.

At that point you'd have a case with a body of .447" but with a rim of .473". I would think you could chuck each case you formed into a drill and turn down the rim to .466" with the light touch of a bastard file
What do you think?
Michael

Not a wise thing to do. The Jap has a case body diameter right ahead of the extractor groove of .447. The 308 in the same location is .470. That's .023 hundreds of an inch difference and a pretty sure recipe to crack a sizer die. Plus with that much difference, even using a steel plate as a buffer, you will smash the head and the extra metal will move to the primer pocket. Believe, I've done all this before...I also am a friend of Dave who owns and run CH4D reloading dies etc. Co. and we talk about this all the time.

Joe

[bruce drake]

First time I broke my 6.5 Jap sizing die trying to form the brass from 308. Cracked it right as I was getting to the head of the cartridge. A Buddy of mine then built me a set of swaging dies to make 6.5 jap from 308 Win brass. I then proceeded to break the linkage on my Lee O press. Replaced the linkage and then still had trouble forming the cases to fit my rifle's chamber because the top of the Pot Metal LEE press would bow up form the pressure of swaging the cartridge head down. Did not make a decent workable case until I bought a LEE Classic Cast that didn't bend.

One note. Use Winchester or Remington Brass. They are thinner than Mil-Surp and are easier to swage down.

It's a long (and potentially expensive) process if you don't prepare ahead of time.

Bruce

[bohica2xo]

It can be done in one pass, but not with ordinary reloading equipment.

1) A hydraulic arbor press.

2) A die block with the proper hole profile.

3) A punch with a protrusion to fit in the primer pocket, slightly tapered.

4) A Lyman primer pocket reamer

5) A flash hole drill / uniformer


Pressing the case into the block to form the head WILL reduce the primer pocket & flash hole. The taper on you head punch will allow you to remove it after forming.

Flip the block over, and use a rod to press the case back out of the block. Use the pocket reamer to square up the sides of the pocket again. Open the flash hole back up. Finish forming & sizing the cases in regular reloading dies.

You will still need to deal with the rim / extractor groove dimensions. I generally use a wilson case holder chucked in the lathe.

I have made 25-20 Single Shot cases from 5.56 nato brass exactly this way.

B.

[Danth]

It can be done in one pass, but not with ordinary reloading equipment.

1) A hydraulic arbor press.

2) A die block with the proper hole profile.

3) A punch with a protrusion to fit in the primer pocket, slightly tapered.

4) A Lyman primer pocket reamer

5) A flash hole drill / uniformer


Pressing the case into the block to form the head WILL reduce the primer pocket & flash hole. The taper on you head punch will allow you to remove it after forming.

Flip the block over, and use a rod to press the case back out of the block. Use the pocket reamer to square up the sides of the pocket again. Open the flash hole back up. Finish forming & sizing the cases in regular reloading dies.

You will still need to deal with the rim / extractor groove dimensions. I generally use a wilson case holder chucked in the lathe.

I have made 25-20 Single Shot cases from 5.56 nato brass exactly this way.

B.

Thanks for this info. You mention a die block with the proper profile. Is this just a thru hole of the proper diameter, or is there some sort of taper? Thanks, Dan

[bohica2xo]

Dan:

For .012 per side, you can get away with a straight hole. The radius on the entry should be as large as possible, and still allow the area you wish to form to enter the straight section of the die.

For cases with a rim the same size or smaller as the head, they can be pushed through a die. For rimmed cases you need to back them out. Springback should be less than .003, so make the die -.005 or so, and hone up from your test cases.



B.

[Jjed]

Just run 35 rem cases through 6.5 jap die, rim size and oal is a little different but not enough to matter. it worked for me.
shoot them in my 6.5 jap with no problems.
Jim

[d_man2]

It can be done in one pass, but not with ordinary reloading equipment.

1) A hydraulic arbor press.

2) A die block with the proper hole profile.

3) A punch with a protrusion to fit in the primer pocket, slightly tapered.

4) A Lyman primer pocket reamer

5) A flash hole drill / uniformer


Pressing the case into the block to form the head WILL reduce the primer pocket & flash hole. The taper on you head punch will allow you to remove it after forming.

Flip the block over, and use a rod to press the case back out of the block. Use the pocket reamer to square up the sides of the pocket again. Open the flash hole back up. Finish forming & sizing the cases in regular reloading dies.

You will still need to deal with the rim / extractor groove dimensions. I generally use a wilson case holder chucked in the lathe.

I have made 25-20 Single Shot cases from 5.56 nato brass exactly this way.

B.

Yes I know this is an old thread.....but the info is still pertinent today. Do you have any pics of this set up? I just cannot picture it in my head. Probably seems easy to you but for those of us who have never done it, it would be majorly beneficial to have some pictures.

[MaLar]

I've made 6.5 Jap cases from 220 swift. Base is the same diameter. Straight forward job.
Finding the brass might be another hurtle.

LaMar

[EDG]

I have messed with the 6.5 Jap brass a good bit. Here is what I learned.

1. The back end of the 6.5 Jap chambers are about .460.
When factory brass is fired it forms a huge bulge because Norma brass measures .446-.447.
I don't care for the bulge and I made brass out of 7.62 Nato LC 66 Match brass. I used an open top steel .44 Mag die that had been polished out. I also used a Herters .303 die to squeeze the heads too. It took 3 or 4 passes and is very hard on loading presses unless you have something like and A2. I used a Rock Chucker but I would have been happer with a heavier press.
I used the Nato brass because I have a lot of it and it requires a lot less trimming.

>>>>What ever you do do not do all that work swaging heads to .447 because that is about .010 to .012 too small.<<<<


2. I think the best brass to use might be PPU .303 brass. It measures .454 ahead of the rim. Form and size using the big fat .303 rim. Trim to length. Turn the rim and extractor groove to work in your rifle. I would much rather turn the rims than do all that head swaging.

Several times I have thought of rechambering my rifles to get rid of this problem.
The old REchambering solution was the wildcat 6.5X .257 Roberts when the 6.5X55 Swede was still a rare bird. Today you could rechamber for the 6.5X55 today since brass, ammo and dies are easy to find now.