30-40 Krag

[flhroy]

Saw one in a pawn shop yesterday. They're asking a bit less then $300 for it and that seems low. Is this a super deal? I've seen them for a heck of a lot more on the auction boards. This one has been d&ted for a receiver sight but other then that it looks original. Can someone tell me what to look for to see if it has been bastardized. I'm not really looking to buy one but........


Thanks

Roy

PS the guy behind the counter kept telling me it wasn't a Krag its a Springfield

[Bret4207]

If you can grab a Krag thats in good shape and only D+T for $300.00- DO IT NOW!!! Just check the bolt for cracks around the lug and check the other usual stuff like barrel, reciever for any signs of weakness, abuse and whatnot.

[flhroy]

Dan how would I remove the bolt. I dinked around with it a bit and didn't get it out. Wasn't really interested in a Krag then but when I saw what some were selling for my interest perked up a bit.

Thanks

Roy

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret told you right. Most important is not to have a crack around the lug. So if it looks like it's in decent shape it's a good buy. The guy said it's a Springfield because Springfield Arsenal made them.

Joe

[flhroy]

how long of a barrel should it have?

[flhroy]

how long of a barrel should it have?

OOPS double post

[Char-Gar]

The barrel on an issue Krag rifle is 30" long. The wood goes all the way out to the end with a metal cap on the end where the front sight lives.

The barrel on an issue carbine is 22" long. The wood does not go out to the end of the barrel.

Many, many Krag rifles had the barrels and/or stock forends shortened for civilian hunting use. After the Govt went to the 03 Springfield these Krags were sold off to the general public for $1.50 each and so many were modified.

A issue carbine will have a bar and saddle ring on the left side of the stock near the receiver.

A good Krag that has had the barrel and/or stock shortened is still worth $300.00 as a shooter. That is about what they sell for.

An umodified rifle is worth $700..$1,500 and perhaps more for true pristine examples. An unmodifed carbine would start at $1,500.00 and go up from there..sometimes way up!

[StarMetal]

Charger,

Not a flame, but I think your description of the wood on the full length rifle is misleading. You said the wood goes all the way out to the end. It's doesn't, it stops short a few inch, say three or four off the top of my head. Then you said that there is a metal cap at the end where the fron sight lives. That's not correct either...the front sight sets atop the barrel all by it's lonesome...and not very well protected I might add. Here's picture of a 1898 Krag full lenght rifle to show this:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44212510

Joe

[RayinNH]

flhroy, check the photo section at this sight to see if you were looking at a Krag.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org (http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/)

Ray

[Bret4207]

RayinNH- Great link. Thanks.

[BruceB]

To remove the bolt from a Krag rifle, bring the bolt to the rear of its travel, and then lift up on the extractor while turning the bolt handle counter-clockwise. The extractor will pivot to the right, and the locking lug will come up into the rear travelway and thus allow the bolt to come out of the rifle.

To re-insert, slip the bolt into the receiver and turn it clockwise while moving the extractor back to its normal orientation on top of the bolt.

It sounds a heck of a lot more complicated than it is!

I'd leap at such a rifle, given barely-decent bore condition. Once upon a time, I ran across a full-length rifle which appeared to be in virtually MINT condition. I pulled the bolt and checked the bore...YUCK! I've seen mine tunnels that were cleaner and smoother than that barrel. Looking back, I probably should have bought it anyway, since issue barrels were still available in those days. Oh, well....I have a dandy "NRA Carbine" Krag now, and it's a beauty (at least to my ol' jaundiced peepers).

[Char-Gar]

Joe..You are of course correct...I was vague and general and did not get very specific into discribing the last couple of inches of a Krag rifle. I was just trying to help the chap distinguish between a rifle, a carbine and a rifle that has been modified for civilian usage and I thought my discription was good enough to do that.

I don't think I said the front sight was on the metal cap, but the metal cap was out where the front sight lives. I was trying to create a word picture of the full length wooden stock with a metal cap that extends to the area of the front sight. Das all...

[StarMetal]

Charger..

Ya mean you're not going to mention that the Germans used them in the shoe "Hogan's Heros"?

Joe

[flhroy]

Went back tonight after work to look at the Krag. Its a model 1898 ser # 2555? Couldn't make out the last number.The barrell is 25 inches long so I guess it has been cut. There are no barrel bands or swivels but it does have a hand guard. There is about 10 to 12 inches bare barrel between the muzzle and the stock. I don't know if the stock has been shortened but it has been shaped and whoever did it did a damn good job. To get the bolt out the receiver sight (a redfield) had to be removed. The bolt had a lot of dings and marks on it but couldn't see anything that looked like it might ba a crack. Boy that action sure is buttery smooth. What kind of loads are these up to? Seems I heard it was on par with the 300 savage. I wasn't looking for a Krag. My next military rifle was going to be a Swiss K-31. I also want to build a 358 Winchester on a left hand Savage model 10 action. I also want.......... Damn too many projects and not enough money. I hate when that happens
Bruce thanks for telling how to remove the bolt. That impressed the hell out of the guy at the pawn shop. He didn't have a clue on how to remove it. This board is a great rescource with a wealth of information and I'm greatful to have found it.

Thanks

Roy

[Maineboy]

So Roy, you gonna buy it? What's the bore like?
I had a sporterized Krag when I was in high school and sold it for $25.00 when I was in college 'cause I needed the money. I kicked myself ever since and have kept my eye out for a replacement. I finally bought one on either Gunbroker or Auction Arms a few years ago for $200.00 and it turned out to be a real good one. I love shooting it and I keep my cast boolit reloads at no more than 30-30 levels.

[Char-Gar]

If it has a decent bore..grab that rifle! If you don't, some day, you will kick yourself all over the place for not buying. There is no shortage of Swiss rifle, but Krags are getting few and far between.

Krags are at their best with cast bullets for a couple of reasons..

1) All but the last rifles had groove diameter larger than the standard .308. I have two..one runs .3095 and the other runs .311. Neither do well with jacketed bullets, but quite well with cast.

2) The last of these rifles was produced 103 years ago and it makes no sense to try and wring every last fps out of these old war horses. YOu can shoot a Krag forever at 1.8K fps with no wear on the rifle or barrel that will ever be noticed.

When I was a kid, issue Krag rifles were $25.00 a pop and fairly common..Oh for those days again..I wouldn't piss off that chance again..however I did manage to hang on to my 22" bble choped Krag with a Pacific receiver sight that I bought for $15.00 in 1960. When I get through with this post it is going to the range with me again today.

[flhroy]

I see brass at Mid South for $28/100. Is there another caliber that can be formed to 30-40?

Thanks

Roy

[RayinNH]

flhroy, you can resize .303 Brit. casings but they will be slightly short in the neck, but work just fine. Get the gun. You won't regret it...Ray

[flhroy]

Bought the Krag! $289 out the door. Wanted to post some pictures but the batteries are dead in the camera. I'll hopefully get the rifle into a gun shop the first part of the week to see if its safe to shoot. Was told that they'll take the rifle back if theres a problem. Hope the smith says shes a shooter because I'm anxious to shoot it now. Any advise on what weight boolits that these things have a liking for would be welcomed. I think this is going to be fun!

thanks

Roy

[RayinNH]

flhroy, check the thread going on under "Cast Boolits--A 30/40 day...bigger is better". There's some suggestions there...Ray

[Frank46]

BruceB, some years back I was in a local gun shop run by a good friend. He had what appeared to be two mint krags. upon closer inspection it appeared that both had be reblued sometime in the past. Nice job though. But when checking the bores they were like sewer pipes. Seems they had been owned by a legion post many years ago and might have been fired with blanks for ceremonial duties like funerals and such. A local VFW post here had major problems with their garands from firing blanks. Seems no one ever cleaned them after firing and after awhile the rifles started malfunctioning. It does get hot and humid down here. Frank

[moodyholler]

My cutdown Krag has a RIA 12-18 barrel on it and shoots super good. Just a thought. moodyholler

[Char-Gar]

First item of business is to clean that bore and that can be a real chore. 100 years of condom bullets can leave allot of gunk behind. Get a bottle of Sweets 7.62 and a sack of patches and settle down for a couple of days work.

Once the bore is clean take a peak. If there are no major pits and the lands are intact you are good to go.

You can slug the bore or I can save you the trouble. It reallly doesn't matter what the groove diameter is. The key to decent accuracy is the fit of the bullet to the throat and the throats on these rifles are worn.

You will get your best accuracy with the largest bullets your rifle throat will accept without shaving lead. In the Krag this will be .313 or .314 depending on which bullet you use.

So choose a bullet that cast large enough to give you a body of .314. These are not easy to come by. Older Lyman/Ideal 30 cal molds often cast this size and greater. I have a vintage 311291 that throws bullets .317..a current production version of this bullet will throw bullets about .310. The current production molds will not cast this large unless you buy a mold for the .303 Brit.

Ebay is the Krag shooters friend. Look for a Lyman/Ideal mold that comes in the little orange CARDBOARD box. An older 311284 or 311291 should be what you need. You may have to buy several get get one that cast large enough. Avoid any Lyman/Ideal mold with the suffix "U" that means undersized and won't get you where you want to go.

If you are not in a hurry, we (Castboolits.com) are putting togeher a Fatter 30 custom bullet mold order from Lee. While we have the .303 Brit, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap and 7.65R Russian in mind, I think it should do well in the Krag.

You have a great rifle there...Good luck..

[StarMetal]

Charger said : Clean the bore and take a peak. Well....the Rough Riders did that in 1898 at San Juan Hill. As for major pits...well they were at the top...they were Spaniard rifle-pits. When they got to the top, and those pits...the Spaniards had long fled and the pits were filled with empty shells and the Spanish flag flew. Yeah the lands were pretty much intact as there wasn't any artillery fire. :groner:Oh...oh......I guess you meant to write "take a peek"...oh, my apologies Charger....please forgive my mistake. [smilie=s:

Joe

[wills]

You are beginning to sound like the Carpetman.

[StarMetal]

:twisted: SPIT....CHOKE...GAG...:holysheep Gawd...anything but that.....you got some kind of cure Wills? Necklace of garlic, silver cross, holy water???? [smilie=b::groner:I'm doomed!!!

Joe

[wills]

Excessive exposure to lead based alloys is known to cause cognitive malfunction. You must divest yourself of all lead based alloys. As it happens I am able to safely dispose of these hazardous substances and will contact you and advise how you may ship all these dangerous substances to me for disposal.

[Frank46]

Wills, I sincerely hope that you either have a very big truck or the brown package warrior will probably be ready for disability after that delivery. Frank

[Char-Gar]

Joe...You need to sack up your meds and see a Dr...I think you may be having some sort of funky drug interaction. :-)

[RayinNH]

Just read this article over at Surplus Rifle.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/americankrag/index.asp

Ray

[KCSO]

Last resort bore cleaning...

Follow at your own risk and be dam'n carefull.

Plug the bore with a rubber plug and clamp the rifle muzzle down outside. Make a solution of 1/2 and 1/2 spring water and muratic acid and using a large syringe and rubber gloves put this solution down the bore. Let stand from 5 to 10 minutes and then drain and wipe out with a jag and a patch, not a brush. Repaet if necessary. This WILL take all the copper, lead, and rust from the bore and out of the pits. If left too long it will also etch the bore.

This is a last resort, but it will sometimes bring back an almost hopeless bore and it will do it quick. If you have never used acid you will need to be very careful, elbow leangth rubber gloves, eye protection (Full Face Shield) and proper disposal. I also try to keep the solution in the bore and not in the chamber if the chamber is not too bad, enought will bubble up as it iets the fouling to clean the chamber.

[Bret4207]

KCSO- Now there's a method I never heard of. Sounds like a good deal for those of us who bring home junk guns in hopes of making them shoot.

Now, would all you guys finding $289.00 Krags, $250.00 '03's, $100.00 Colt Bisleys, and $50.00 S+W 357 Magnums in the original box PLEEEEEEZE stop torturing the rest of us who only see $1500.00 Krags, $1800.00 '03s, $2500.00 Bisleys and $3000.00 357 Magnums in the original box! It's driving me over the edge and it's long drop with a real quick stop at the bottom. There's drool all over the key board everytime I read about you lucky sons who find these things. Yes, I know I did buy a Winchester 52 for $5.00, but that does not in any way fulfill my lifelong quota of "great deals". It scares my wife when I start blubbering about "missed opportunities" and "the unfairness of it all". Woe is me. I may send a check to all the gun control outfits or a campain contribution to Hillary if this keeps up!

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

CONTRIBUTION TO HILLARY'S CAMPAIGN FUND!!!!!!!!!!!!! :violin:My Lord!!!....looks like I may have to make a few phonecalls to "the boys" up in Chicago to do one of these on you----->:Fire:

Now y'all quit talking like that, y'all hear. :kidding:

Joe Capone

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bret, Hang in there, I gave up on finding a decent shooter Krag or an Argentine 1891, but kept looking. thhe last two Big Reno Gun Shows have yielded a nicely carbineized sporterized Krag with Lyman sights for less than $400, and a near mint 1891 long rifle for $250. Higher than they used to be, but not outrageous. (The first guy to say he could have found better cheaper will remind me of what all my friends say whenever I buy a car.)

[Char-Gar]

Ok Guys..I am going to try my first photos. Here is my most recent Krag sporter. I bought it five years ago for $250.00. It has had the military stock reshaped, including narrowing the butt plate. The barrel shortened to 24" and a Pacific ramp front sight attatched. The rifle has been reblued and a Lyman 48 rear sight attatched. Whoever did the work was/is a real pro. This is a first year production (1895) and is now 111 years old. Shoots like a house-a-fire.

[Char-Gar]

Well..I broke the code and am on a roll. So here is my first Krag. Cut down military, 22" barrel, 03 front sight band with a Redfield Sourdough, Pacific rear sight. This rifle was made in 1901. With cast bullet this rifle is a 1.5 MOA shooter. I bought it in 1960 for $15.00 and killed my first deer with it the same year. This is the last rifle I will part with.

[flhroy]

Charger, the Krag I just got is real similar to your most recent one. I'm not having much luck getting pictures posted here. I was able to get the picture in an e-mail but could't get it to up load here. The gunsmith said the Krag was safe to shoot so shes a keeper. He put a bore scope down the bore and took a look. He said it was pitted pretty bad and I shouldn't expect much accuracy from her. He let me take a look and what I noticed were sharp shoulders on the lands. The bore is real dark also. Told me with some Kroil and JB Bore Paste I should be able to make the bore shine again. Wonder what it will look like with a shiney bore and no bore scope.
To start with I'm going buy some tailor mades to shoot. I guess Remington still loads 30/40 but no one around here stocks it. One place I called up in Portland said they normally carried it but they didn't have any right now. Every place else I called just flat said they no longer carried it. Some will show up some place. I'll keep trying to get some pictures here and also let you know how things are going. Thanks for all the help you guys have given me.

Roy

[Frank46]

Bret, he he, I bought my 1898 springfield armory krag for $180.00. Cut down bbl at 25" with ramp front sight and military rear. Bought it when I lived in new york, the dealer said he just got it from a guy in pennsylvania. Pretty decent bbl. When I first got it the more I cleaned it the deeper the rifling got. Guess there was a lot of crud in the bbl. Don't fire off a check to billary just yet, your day may yet come.
Frank

[Char-Gar]

flyroy... I have yet to see a Krag with a truly good bore. Neither of mine are smooth in the grooves, but exhibit roughness. As long as the rifling is reasonable sharp you are good to go.

As I stated in a prior post, you have a chore to get the metal fouling out and Sweets 7.62 is the tool for the job. You can then try and get a shine if you want to, but I don't see any purpose to doing that. Clean and shiny won't shoot any better than just clean.

You may very well be disappointed if you shoot factory or other jacketed ammo. Neither of my Krags will shoot worth beans with such ammo. As stated before, Krag barrels tend to be oversize. Only the last one run anything near the nominal .308.

My 1st. Krag measures .3095 in the grooves and 4 MOA is the best I have ever been able to do with jacketed bullets. My 2nd Krag measures .312 and I have never even tried jacketed bullets. If I did Iwould have to go to the larger bullets for the .303 Brit to get anything like accuracy.

It is easy to posts photos on this sight..here is how.

1. Scroll down on the post box to "Additonal Options"
2. Click on "manage Attatchments" under "Attach Files"
3. Click on "browse" and find the pic on your hardrive and click "open"
4. Click "upload"
5. Click "submit reply" and that is it.

[flhroy]

I did it. Problem was file was waaaay to big. New computer with new software couldn't figure out how to resize. But I got it now.
The rifle is actually darker then what it appears in the picture.

[Maineboy]

I did it. Problem was file was waaaay to big. New computer with new software couldn't figure out how to resize. But I got it now.
The rifle is actually darker then what it appears in the picture.

Good lookin gun! Ya done well...
Now if'n it'll shoot!

[Bret4207]

Sniff, sniff, blubber,sob,sniff.

[Char-Gar]

Bret... Read em and weep!

[SharpsShooter]

I did it. Problem was file was waaaay to big. New computer with new software couldn't figure out how to resize. But I got it now.
The rifle is actually darker then what it appears in the picture.


Dat is reeeaaaally nice!!

:coffee:

I gotta have one of those..:mrgreen:

[straightshooter1]

Very nice Krag. I have had many of them and have never had one that would not shoot and shoot extremely well with cast or condom. Lots of information available here on great loads, IMR or H 4198 seems to be most accurate for me. Reloader7 also.

Enjoy it!

Bob

[Frank46]

Now, now Bret, take it easy. There is a new help group being formed for those who have a serious case of kragitus. But don't have a krag. They meet four times a month. I kooked high and low for mine but never could afford a origional uncut krag. The one I have was found as I was about to leave the show. Frank

[Char-Gar]

I am not a collector, or military buff, so having a uncut Krag has never been high on my list, althought I would not turn one down if offered at a bargin basement price.

I am a shooter and these chopped Krags suit me just fine. A krag with a 22-24" barrel and shortened wood is a well balanced rifle comes to the shoulder in a natural way. They make great hunting and snap shooting rifles.

[StarMetal]

Gee Tpr Bret,

Guess I shouldn't tell you about my original, around WWI era, Remington genuine bullet emblem folding knife. Talked to a collector/appraiser back in the 90's about it and he said it should fetch between 2000 to 5000 dollars at the time. Not for sale...was my Dad's and he got it from my Uncle, whom I've never known, on my mother's side.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---A guy from Tn named James F Parker is big in the knife business. He has a Knife Collectors guide much like the Blue Book of Guns. His 1987 edition,highest priced Remington knife listed is $2000. Knife values sometimes do take leaps and bounds increases. By early 90's to being perhaps worth $5000 is a huge leap. Seems knife collectors every bit as picky as gun collectors. His prices are for new. Sharpen it one time it is no longer new. Does the knife have a model number?

[StarMetal]

The collector I talked to was from Mich....and what gave my knife such a high rating was the condition of all of it except the blades. The stocks, the bullet, bolsters, etc...all in excellent condition. He was particulary interested in the numbers, wording, and emblems on the blade. One important one was UMC inside a circle, which mine has. Being my dad got this when he was a young man from my uncle, before I was born, does put the knife at a very early date. I may look up this fellow you mentioned and see what he has to say...Thanks.

Joe

[Slick Pilot]

I have a 30-40 Krag that my dad and uncle threw in together and bought for me circa 1972.

It is probably my favorite all-around gun to shoot with jacketed or cast. Milk jugs are in big trouble at 200 yards and make impressive splashes. One of these days, I will put it on paper.

Like I said, they split the cost and paid three dollars each for it. Six bucks may be the record for the late 20th Century.

hehehe

[Bret4207]

Joe, knives are nice, but they don't go BANG!

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

How about the Russian ballistic knife that the U.S. banded??

Joe

[Bret4207]

Ah yes, the "Pilum Ballistic Knife". Makes a "boing" sound, not BANG!

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

Oh, you ruin all my fun. :roll:


Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe, knives are nice, but they don't go BANG!

A lot of bowies, blades, dirks and swords from the blackpowder era that went bang.

[XBT]

Not a good picture, but here’s a few Krags. The stock on the center one was sanded to a toothpick when I bought it so I restocked it with a decent piece of wood.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/retiredBT/krags002ajusted.jpg

My Grandfather bought the bottom one years ago, complete with a large cloth sack of ammo for $4.50.00 ( that’s right, four dollars and fifty cents!) He told me he thought the seller beat him some on the deal.

Up until fairly recently you could buy Krags like these around here for one hundred dollars, but I haven’t seen any at that price for a while. I don’t have any in original trim; they are way too much money for me.

Despite having worn barrels, all of these guns shoot cast boolits very well.

[Bret4207]

XBT, as I said earlier, sniff, snif, sob,snuffle.

45 2.1- You are of course right. In that line of thinking if someone would be so kind as to send me a Krag bayonet, which is after all a knife, attached to darn near any kind of Krag rifle or carbine I would be forever grateful.

[Herb in Pa]

I picked up the sporterized Krag in a deal about 15 years ago, if memory serves me correct I got the Krag, a Model 88 in 308 Winchester, 2 old Mossberg bolt action shotguns, a NIB Winchester 22 pump and a 22 auto that looked like a Colt Woodsman for the princely sum of $500.

The uncut Krag is an 1892 updated to the 1896 configuration.....it's got a 4 digit serial #. The price was right..and old friend gave me both the Krag and the Eddystone below it 2 years ago. [smilie=w:

[45 2.1]

XBT, as I said earlier, sniff, snif, sob,snuffle.

45 2.1- You are of course right. In that line of thinking if someone would be so kind as to send me a Krag bayonet, which is after all a knife, attached to darn near any kind of Krag rifle or carbine I would be forever grateful.

Bret-
Those items had built in single shot capability. They didn't attach. Nice try though.

[Maineboy]

Sniff, sniff, blubber,sob,sniff.

Hey Bret, check these out.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7341633&aa=%20Springfield%20Armory%20(Springfield,%20Mass) %20%20Model%201896%2030-40%20Krag%20Carbine%20sporterized

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7346470&aa=%20Springfield%20Armory%20(Springfield,%20Mass) %20%201896%20Krag%20Sporterized

[Frank46]

Bret, well you no longer have an excuse, the first of the two looks nice. Frank

[Herb in Pa]

That's an S&K scope mount on the first one.

[fiberoptik]

I've got a sporterized Krag. It has a really nice barrel on it. The wood is cut down, and from memory (short) I don't think it's got a handguard. Has a Williams peep on back, nice white bead on front. I'll have to measure the tube on it, but it's plenty handy for the woods. No digital camaras here, so I'll have to wait on the daughter, who does have one. The single-shot thingy don't want to move, but it doesn't seem to have any rust anywere.

[StarMetal]

fiberoptic,

That magazine cutoff lever is just shaped like a giant captial "L". There is a little detent ball on the one end that is exposed on the outside of the action...guess you could call that the leg of the "L". I surmise it's crudded up inside or possibly rusted there. I suggest keep soaking it with Kroil oil or some other good penetrating oil, but only after first spraying it with Gumout Carburator cleaner or that Gunscrup by Outers I believe to soften any harden crud that maybe be there first.


Joe