Over powder wads

[StrawHat]

Being as I am heavily influenced by my Celtic heritage (read that as CHEAP), I have been using overpowder wads I cut from cereal boxes. Usually Cheerios but sometimes Grape Nuts. I am considering making a change to using the waxed cardboard from milk cartons.

Anyone out there tried milk carton wads? It would seem the wax would not hurt and might even help.

I am not looking for 1000 yard target loads, merely hunting and plinking stuff for my 45-70 and 50-70.

[John Boy]

Anyone out there tried milk carton wads?
Does Wendy's waxed cups count?:) Worked for me

[Pepe Ray]

Strawhat;
I must ask,WHY?
Are you disappointed withe Grape nuts card wads?

I've heard of wads cut from milk or fruit juice cartons for years. Assumed it was best because they'd be resistant to humidity. Other than that I can't see why there'd be any difference. Nor would I look for any difference at the target.

I'd think that the use of wads would introduce an extra processing step and require additional caution to assure that the wads remained in place at the boolet base. No matter what they were cut from.
Pepe Ray

[montana_charlie]

It seems that if a cereal box was going to be cut into small disks and shot from guns, the box should be one that contains Quaker Puffed Wheat.

CM

[Jon K]

I have heard of milk cartons being used, which I tried with PP loads. I used waxed wad over the powder/.5ml lube/.030 veggie wad/boolit. Seemed to work good, and I felt pouring hot lube into the case on the waxed wad would not penetrate.

Did I see any difference as opposed to using 2 veggie wads-over and under?........NO.

I say use what you have, or what pleases you.

Jon :)

[Don McDowell]

Strawhat those milk/orange juice cartons work alright. There's even some folks using the plastic milk cartons in place of ldpe wads.

[NickSS]

I used milk cartons until my wife started buying milk in plastic containers. The wads worked fine for me. I mostly use cardboard from primer boxes for anything except match loads but for matches I use either .030 or .060 vegi wads.

[BPCR Bill]

I use the cardboard that seperate the layers of dog biscuits in a box. .030", just cut them into .5" strips on a paper cutter, then run them through my press mounted wad punch. Some guys go to the auto parts store and buy gasket material. Most of the time that stuff is rolled up and you have to flatten it to make it manageable. What a PITA.

Regards,
Bill

[BPCR Bill]

Strawhat;
I must ask,WHY?
Are you disappointed withe Grape nuts card wads?

I've heard of wads cut from milk or fruit juice cartons for years. Assumed it was best because they'd be resistant to humidity. Other than that I can't see why there'd be any difference. Nor would I look for any difference at the target.

I'd think that the use of wads would introduce an extra processing step and require additional caution to assure that the wads remained in place at the boolet base. No matter what they were cut from.
Pepe Ray

Pepe, so I would assume that you do not use wads? Just curious. I read an article by a fellow earlier this spring that said he doesn't use them, and sees no use for them. I'm not being critical, just curious. As for the wads moving out of place, that just doesn't happen, unless of course a couple of things come together:

#1. The wad is too small for the cartridge case.

#2. The boolit has zero neck tension, being entirely too loose in the cartridge.

With that scenario, the wad will surely move, along with the boolit. I do not mechanically compress my powder, and I hand seat the card wad on the powder with a dowel. A properly sized wad will fit into a case snugly, and once placed squarely on the powder column will not move. Sometimes I've had to pull a powder charge for some reason (like this morning) and I have to use a sharp dental pick to reach in and flip the wad sideways and grasp it with a fine needle nose plier.

As for humidity affecting the wad, well, if it's wet enough to affect that, it's surely wet enough to affect the powder. Southeast Asia and the Monsoon season comes to mind.

But, back to the "no wad" situation. I've been curious about that, and intend to try it sometime in the next month. Just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Regards,
Bill

[Pepe Ray]

Well fellers, I hope I havn't stepped into it.
I purchased some Walters veggie wads, not so much to hold a black powder charge in place but to protect the base of a PB boolet.
Isn't it interesting how many different conclusions can be made when a few details are missing.

Plain cardboard wads vs, waxed wads = $0.02
Pepe Ray

[StrawHat]

Thank you for all the replies and suggestions. I am probably going to continue with the cereal box wads as I have a bunch of them and don't shoot as much as I would like to. The milk carton idea was curious to me and wondered if there was any advantage.

As I said, not a target shooter, just a shooter. Enjoy making smoke and puching large holes through things.



It seems that if a cereal box was going to be cut into small disks and shot from guns, the box should be one that contains Quaker Puffed Wheat.

CM

CM, I had forgotten about those ads! You are right, will have to try them.

Thanks for the laugh.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Strawhat, I have a 38-55 that I use in plack powder matches. I use a milk carton wad over the powder, then I compress the powder about an eight of an inch, on top of that I place a vegie wad and then the bullit. By the way I am cheaper than you are. On second thought perhaps I phrased that badly. Lets say that you and I are frugal. I can afford to use vegie wads because a friend gave me several thou. of them in various sizes. He has given up shooting black powder. I get good results with this combo and no leading. Of course with black powder you will always get fouling.

[Ron B.]

Interesting! :bigsmyl2:

I hope this doesn't get me in trouble with anyone here; I don't use blackpowder. Have nothing against it; just don't. But, I certainly enjoy reading about others whom do!

I reload for 32-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 45-120, and 50-70, along with many others using smokeless powders. The only caliber I find which needs a wad is 45-120; due to the excessive void between the powder and bullet. I cookie cut styrofoam; using the 45-120 brass to do so, after measuring/filling powder charges. The fit is snug, like a bug in a rug! And, a side benefit is, the styrofoam keeps the powder from falling out should I mishandle the brass before getting a bullet seated. :) SInce I'm only a paper puncher style shooter, I seldom reload anything near maximum. So, I've never experienced melting of the styrofoam. I collect styrofoam sheets from various shipments I get. In this particular case, the thickness of the styrofoam is about 1/2 inch.

Curious, has anyone else tried styrofoam?

Good luck a booming! [smilie=s:
GRB

[BPCR Bill]

GRB,
I've never loaded with styrofoam, but last year at a Schuetzen match I had the opportunity to shoot ammo that was. (one of my rifles broke and a fellow competitor loaned me one of his). It was a 32-40 shooting breech seated ammo. I noticed the brass he had charged had a soft foam wad over a load of IMR4227. I believe the wad was more for keeping the powder in the open case, as the boolit is breech seated first, then the charged case inserted in the chamber. It definitely did not affect accuaracy in any negative way! In these competitions only plain base cast boolits are allowed, no gas checks. My 38-55 Schuetzen rifle is loaded with Black and breech seated, so ditto on keeping the powder in the case with a veggie fiber wad. Maybe you should come on over to the "Dark Side" and give the Black a try. You'll be surprised at the accuracy you can obtain with it! And no, you're not in trouble!!

Regards,
Bill

[1874Sharps]

As the man in the black helmet and black outfit rightly said, "You don't know the power of the DARKSIDE!!!" I started loading with smokeless in the 45-70 but have fully gone over to the darkside now. In the 45-70 I have loaded both with and without wads and did not find that the type of wad made any difference. I used Walter's wads, leather wads, pizza box wads, etc. Now I use exclusively paper patch loads but had good luck with both the Lyman 405 and 500 grain bullets with no wad (just like the 1880s US military load). If a wad is used it is important that the wad not stick on the base after it leaves the barrel or it will cause a flier for sure.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have a good friend that does not use any wads most often a wax paper wad is all he uses however many the time he has told me of loads that wont shoot in his rifles and some that tumble.

I always use a wad to protect the bullet base, i have picke up folks bullet after they strike my 1000 yard target and find many that have fins on the base of the bullet, (NO WAD LOAD) some times they hit some times they dont.

I have recovered out of my berms at 800 and 900 and 1000 yards many bullets that show signs of finning and accuracy of course was less then stellar.

Food for thought

KW

The Lunger

[freedom475]

I have started using extra leather to make my OP wads. I have not done a lot of testing with these but I use them in all of my muzzleloaders. The skirting leather will soak up oil/lube and be dry to the touch. It seems to acctually swab the barrel with every shot as the lube is forced from the wad at firing.

I sent some to a customer and he did some testing with them and this is what he replyed back to me with....

"I just wanted to share some data with you that I obtained when comparing leather wads VS no wads. The rifle was a .50 cal Hatfield. I was using 50 grains of Goex fffG. My patches were .015 light denim that were lubricated with Bore Butter.

I soaked the leather wads in Balistol and let them dry on a towel for about three days. I made five shots over a chronograph using no wad and five shots using a leather wad. The average muzzle velocity without the wad was 1289 ft/sec with a standard deviation of 21.35. When I used the wads, the average muzzle velocity was 1317 ft/sec with a standard deviation of only 7.00. This proves to me that the wads significantly improve performance.

There is no doubt that the wads improve combustion and lower fouling. After doing my test shooting, I went on a woods walk with my club and shot over 25 shots using the wads for each shot and never once needed a cleaning patch. When we finished, I started cleaning my rifle and there was more crap around the nipple than there was down the bore. I am absolutley sold on using the leather wads with the Balistol on them. My patches were lightly lubed with Bore Butter. A wonderful combination!!

Bill"

[texasmac]

Bill,

What is your loading process? Are you pushing the leather wad down separately after pouring in the powder or do you insert the leather wad and use the bullet and denim patch to push the leather wad down? Or does it make any difference? Thanks.

Wayne

[freedom475]

Bill,

What is your loading process? Are you pushing the leather wad down separately after pouring in the powder or do you insert the leather wad and use the bullet and denim patch to push the leather wad down? Or does it make any difference? Thanks.

Wayne


The post was a paste copy from an email a customer sent me about his experience with leather wads he made from leather I sent him so I only got the info from Bill that I pasted.

I usually push the wads down after the powder wtih big bores, but I have found with a smaller (54cal ect.) that the ramrod can sometimes tip the wads so I push them down with the patched ball or boolit. Most wads I cut are rigged and about 1/8"+ in thickness.

I also use them in my Cap&ball. I have come to really like them. I prefur a light patch and my 72cal was really burning trough ticking and causing bad flyer's...after the wads I can now use easy-2-load combinations with good accuracy and no burned patches.....and the barrel stays clean.

[texasmac]

Wes,

Thanks for the additional details. Sorry about calling you Bill. I did realize you were passing along information from someone else, but wondered how you loaded with a wad.

I routinely use an over powder wad when loading for and shooting BPCR but never thought about using a wad, leather or other type, with my 50 cal. muzzle loader. I'll definitely have to try it.

Regards,
Wayne

[Boz330]

I have a good friend that does not use any wads most often a wax paper wad is all he uses however many the time he has told me of loads that wont shoot in his rifles and some that tumble.

I always use a wad to protect the bullet base, i have picke up folks bullet after they strike my 1000 yard target and find many that have fins on the base of the bullet, (NO WAD LOAD) some times they hit some times they dont.

I have recovered out of my berms at 800 and 900 and 1000 yards many bullets that show signs of finning and accuracy of course was less then stellar.

Food for thought

KW

The Lunger

Kenny,
Are the fins from the lands? If so that sounds more like an oversize bullet problem than lack of wad. I wouldn't think that a wad would be hard enough to prevent that happening even with the pressure of firing.

Bob

[cajun shooter]

I of course use wads in cartridge reloading like everyone else but never thought of using it in my T/C 50 cal. muzzleloader. In fact just about 2 months ago I had a stuck bullet because of lube migration from the south Louisiana heat. A wad would have stopped this and as stated would help with the cleaning of the bore. Funny how simple idea's elude us at times.

[1874Sharps]

KW,

It does seem that most BPCR shooters use a wad (except the friend that you cite, of course). The original 1873 Springfield Trapdoor ammo (first with the 405 grain boolit and then later with the 500 grain boolit), however, did not have a wad between the bullet base and the powder. No doubt this was not match grade ammo, and I do not know what the common practice of that day was among the dedicated target shooters. I am interested in your opinion on this.

[StrawHat]

It seems that if a cereal box was going to be cut into small disks and shot from guns, the box should be one that contains Quaker Puffed Wheat.

CM


Another update, I tried wads from a "WHEATIES" box. Didn't help me.

[BPCR Bill]

Another update, I tried wads from a "WHEATIES" box. Didn't help me.

StrawHat, Please expand on this. Your first post indicated you are a casual shooter, not a serious target shooter. This leads me to think you have some other issues. Many things can contribute to accuracy (or lack of it) in any given rifle. How much do you compress your powder? What brand and powder granulation do you use? Primers? How far out do you seat your boolit? Is it a few thousandths off the lands or is the boolit engaged into them? What rifle / barrel combination do you have? What's the bore / groove diameter? The list goes on. I recommend you work on loads and only change one process or component at a time until you have worked up a satisfactory load for your purposes. It can be done, it just takes some patience. :D

Regards,
Bill

[cajun shooter]

BPCR Bill, You hit the nail on the head. A lot of times when someone does casual shooting they can and do get away with doing all sorts of things that would fail under LRTS. That was my argument on a statement about BP loading being done by just dumping a volume charge. Long range takes several factors being put together in a correct manner. KW said it in his post, no wad ,no hit target. You can shoot at a gallon paint can on the river bank without having the factors in line. Ever thing that you listed plus the shooters finger on that day is very important. Some people might even call it being a little anal. But if it works how can you dispute doing it? It's like when i first started to shoot pistol competition on the police dept. If a top shooter would scratch is leg, I scratched mine.

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

There is another and usually much faster method of finding an optimal combination of many variables such as a BPCR load (primer, amount of powder, powder type, bullet seating depth, type of bullet, etc.) This method was introduced to me when working as a research chemist in pharmceuticals and is called Multi-Variant Analysis. Without going into too much detail, it is a method whereby a number of experiments are conducted using a fairly small yet representative sample size. When the most promising results are indicated by a given experiment, then more experiments are conducted changing just one or two of the variables so that this "area of promise" is fully probed. To illustrate, it is like trying to discover where the coldest cubic foot of air is in a room. One could start at a given corner and measure the temperature of each cubic foot systematically and eventually find the answer. However, one could also take measurements in multiple and separate areas of the room and see which measurement was the coldest and then explore in that area. That is the idea. If you make a table of all the variables you wish to test and the increments by which to test them and choose a large enough experimental group, you can often find the optimal combination with much less experimentation than by tesing every possible combination. Hope this makes sense and hope it helps!

[Dale53]

I shot competitive BPCR Silhouette for fifteen years (until I lost vision in my shooting eye).

I put a twenty power scope on my BPCR and tested at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 yards. It is amazing how well these rifles shoot off a bench when you do things right. 6-8 inch groups at 500 yards were not uncommon on good days (good weather days) when the planets are aligned. I DID discover that it took LOTS of concentration to make ten good shots in a row (this was off a bench, never mind off sticks). Five round groups are MUCH easier to do, but ten shots really tell the story.

I used a .060" LDPE Wad (press mounted custom cutter from Fred Cornell). I compressed powder (bought in quantity and tested every new lot) with the RIFLE telling me "how much". Goex was often .350" of compression. I ended up using Swiss. It burned cleaner, gave better performance, and was consistent. I only compressed it about .085". Of course, this was all with a compression die. You do NOT want to try to compress powder over a 1/3 of an inch with a soft bullet.

In my "bullet box" tests I confirmed that bullet's bases were being damaged by the powder impinging upon the base causing some of those off shots. It took a .060" vegetable fiber or LDPE before the damage disappeared. I seemed to have fewer unexplained off shots when using LDPE compared to veggie wads. However, some ranges do not allow LDPE wads...

At any rate, working systematically with your loads and listening to people like Kenny Wasserburger who has PROVEN his assertions, as they say, "In front of God and everybody" will get you there.

I want even my plinking loads to be the best that they can be, within reason. Using a wad takes little effort and little cost if you make your own or buy from Walters or King Machine. I once ran a "time study" on reloading my Match BPCR loads on a turret press and it took an average of 20 seconds a reload. That is with using wads. I'll pay that price.

On the other hand, I freely admit to loading BP .45 Colts without wads. I simply used the bullet to compress the powder 1/16". I found that 2F gave measurably less recoil (and corresponding less velocity). These loads would shoot consistently under 2" at 25 yards in my Ruger Bisley Vaquero. I could get 75 accurate shots before the cylinder started binding up. However, each revolver is a law unto itself regarding binding.

YMMV

Dale53

[cajun shooter]

Again another poster with the proof in the pudding, Thanks Dale. I regard your shooting time as a long term scientific test that will keep me using wads. I also do the same with my 45 Colt BP loads as they are used at close CAS ranges. The long range CAS rifle shot is 50 yds and you can get away with all sorts of loading mistakes. At BPCR and then the big Creedmoor shooting you must have your ducks in a row and do all the things that has been posted by several members. When Kenny Wasserburger tells me that he uses wads then the experiment stops and I use wads. He told me that he anneals his cases at each loading, again enough for me. If you have one trigger squeeze to make that perfect shot that you have been trying to do all your life. Why would you not do a proven step that has been shown to work by the top shooters. My daddy always said that a hard head leads to a soft butt. I guess it 's the old lead a horse to water thing. Plenty of top shooters have proven the question but you have those who still want to do something else. Dale as far as the cylinder bind with BP you can overcome that. For about a year now I have been coating my base pins with Mobil 1 Synthetic grease before I put them up after cleaning. If you have a revolver with removeable bushings like Colt and USFA do that also. My revolvers are still spinning like the first stage at the last. Later David

[1874Sharps]

Dale53,

You give much good data from much experimentation. When I started out shooting the 45-70 Sharps I began in a similar fashion. I read in BPCR Magazine to see how the competitive shooters were loading. I figured that would give me a good starting point or "area of promise", if you will. Some of those given techniques I borrowed I still use, as they have proven great in my rifle. Some I have modified and joyfully received better results. One must never discount the difference between two rifles even if they come consecutively off the same manufacturing line, for they are not identical and not necessarily the same in load preference.

The nerve injury sustained in the line of duty while serving in the US Navy makes it nigh unto impossible for me to actually shoot in a dedicated long or mid range BPCR match, but it does not keep me from competing against myself and trying to develop the best loads possible and send the bullets downrange with the smallest groups possible. That, to me, is what it is all about.

I would still like someone to comment on the fact that the original standard load of 70 grains of BP in the US Army of the 1870s and 1880s did not use an over powder wad for either the 405 grain bullet or the later 500 grain bullet. The switch to the heavier bullet came after the Sandy Hook range tests that demonstrated the better long range capabilities of the heavier 500 grain bullet in range. A target was shot from around a mile away and the hits were regular, yet no wad under the bullet was used. Comments?

[Dale53]

1874Sharps;
The original cartridges of the 1870's and 1880's were not required to shoot at 500 meters within a max of 2 minute deviation (a 500 meter ram is 12" tall in the middle where it counts - slightly more than 2 minutes of angle).

Our present long range shooters, like Kenny, wouldn't even be "in the hunt" with the loading practices of the 1870's-1880's US Army. This is NOT to disparage the Army equipment. For the day, it was MORE than impressive. It just wasn't intended to compete with serious target shooting of the level we see today. They DID have some impressive shooters, of the day (Sgt. Bull comes to mind).

The original Creedmoor shooting was certainly of a very high level for the time but I do NOT know exactly what loading procedures that they used.

As a matter of interest, I have had one of the ORIGINAL Creedmoor guns in my hands (of the 1874 Creedmoor Match) - it still had the sight data in the original owners hand writing in the butt trap. Now THAT was a real piece of history.

CAjunShooter;
As a direct result of your comments about Mobil synthetic lube, some months ago, I picked up a grease gun tube of it. I have not yet tried it with black powder but will do so shortly. Thanks for the tip. As a matter of information, when I was competing in BPCR matches, they had side matches for revolvers. It was required that it be black powder, only (although Pyrodex was allowed) with fixed sights. Being a Ruger fan, I bought a Ruger Vaquero (4 5/8") but later switched to a Ruger Bisley 5½". Both were near perfect for the job, but the longer barrel (with it's longer sight radius) made hits easier.

Dale53

[Don McDowell]

Friday afternoon I watched Kenny W. put a handful of his paper patch rounds within about a 6 inch circle at 1000 yds in the crappy wind conditions at Alliance. Now there's some load testing that mounts to something. lol

[cajun shooter]

Don, I only wish that I could have been there to see that. As you say that is load testing at it's finest. AS I stated before if Kenny W does it then I will follow suit. (Now if he decides to jump off a cliff) we might have to look at it in a different light. Later David

[BPCR Bill]

Hey Don, glad to hear Kenny did so well at Alliance. I shot a long range match in Bend this past weekend and didn't do so well. The old eyes were just not up to snuff, hit a 50% at the 1000 yard and was lucky to get a group at all. Bad sight picture=bad score. Maybe I should get some of that fancy Laser Eye cutting done, huh? I wonder if someone makes telescopic inserts for globe sights??

Regards,
Bill

[Don McDowell]

Fellers' everybody shot really good on Friday, just practicing.
Conditions changed severely Saturday, and there was a LOOOTTTT of humble pie got served in extra large portions both days.
Anyway's the pictures Kenny has put up of Dora don't really do her justice, that's one fine looking rifle.

[Boz330]

Hey Don, glad to hear Kenny did so well at Alliance. I shot a long range match in Bend this past weekend and didn't do so well. The old eyes were just not up to snuff, hit a 50% at the 1000 yard and was lucky to get a group at all. Bad sight picture=bad score. Maybe I should get some of that fancy Laser Eye cutting done, huh? I wonder if someone makes telescopic inserts for globe sights??

Regards,
Bill

Yes they do! It really isn't a telescopic insert, but a correction for your eye in diopters. I got one when I was trying to stay with irons. The down side is it is only correct when looking thru the center, the edges are distorted and it is real easy to get on the wrong target with it. It does make the target much clearer though. I believe the cost was about $37, and he will make the insert to whatever size you want. I had to switch to a 17A style sight with the screw in back section to hold the lens in place.
I finally gave up and got an MVA scope. That can have it's own set of problems though. Golden years my A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only things golden are that you have time and money to do the things you can't do anymore.

Bob


Bob

[Dale53]

>>>The only things golden are that you have time and money to do the things you can't do anymore.<<<


Boy, "Ain't it the truff"!!:groner:

Dale53

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Guys,

Friday was a fun day with Dora at Alliance and thanks to Donnie spotting it was even more fun. That load shot so well it was kinda scary!!!!

It has 3 wads also. .060 veg fiber to compress the Fg Load of 111 grs .385 in the case then a .060 poly wad then finally a .092 Cork wad and last the 517 gr PP bullet at .444 diam and patched up to .450.

Shoots quite well,

Now as I told Donnie, If I could only shoot?>

[1874Sharps]

KW,

Wahoo, could you post a photo of your rifle, Dora and a photo of a loaded round? It is chambered in 45-120, I assume? Also, where does the grease cookie go and how thick is it?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

It's a 45-110 Shiloh with my tight chamber and a bull barrel rifle MVA scope.

The Lunger

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

As Donnie can attest too,

After we zeroed at 700 yards took 9 shots then I shot 5 hits on that target, we moved to 800-900-1000 for last and well I never fired a single miss after zeroing on the 700 yard target[smilie=w::shock: And we shot some pretty impressive groups at 800-900-1000 yards.

Now if I could just learn to shoot?:violin::razz:

The Lunger

KW

Sir Harsh Sr.
Knight Commander

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Sorry forgot the round pictures:

Bullet of my design at .444 Diam.

Loaded rounds and the 5@200 target shot last year with my Creedmoor rifle, Dora's rounds look exactly like these. 1.336 inch at 200 yards[smilie=w:.

Dora is a dedicated PP rifle and thats all she shoots and rather well if I do say so.

Due to her heavy weight of 23.69# with scope she is strictly a prone or Bench rest rifle. MVA has constructed special mounts that allow me to reach 1 mile with this load and rifle combo.

And thats exactly what I wanted for Extreme Long Range and Long Range.

KW

The Lunger

[1874Sharps]

KW,

Do you swab the bore between shots or use a grease cookie, or both?

[BPCR Bill]

Kenny, I saw that rifle on the other posting and I am still drooling. I may have to scrounge up the money to have Shiloh put a heavy barrel on mine. It's a 110 with the #1 34" heavy, but the #16 is the ticket. There's alot of factors that go into long range shooting, and like the bench rest guys, the heavier the better. Let's see. Spotter that knows his butt from a post hole, a good load, and eyes. Like I said earlier, my eyes are getting outta shape and I need to get a consult on laser surgery. My spotter is second to none and when he gves me a call of "Mirage at a boil, half value" and I go out at 7, well, I'm just hopin' and pokin'. Bottom line is, my rifle and loads shoot exactly where I let 'em..
Addendum:
Then I see you're using a scope.. Hmmm. Maybe I ain't doing too bad.

Regards,
Bill

[Don McDowell]

Not only did that rifle not fire a single miss on the sight in session, I seriously doubt that had we been able to measure the groups none of them would have went over 4 moa:holysheep So yup I"m thinking wad/s can make a big difference.
Now if ol Dora just had somebody that knew how to shoot........:bigsmyl2:

One of the things that really struck me about the rifle, is with that massive barrel that 45 hole looks more like a 38[smilie=l:

[montana_charlie]

Kenny,
I'm looking at your bullet, and the loaded round.
Can you post a drawing/diagram of the front end of your chamber?

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie, I know this much its .479-.480 at the mouth. Chamber length is 2.880 I use a special Lee trimmer custom made by Lee for me to trim my cases to 2.878 The spindle through the Primer flash hole makes for very consistant case lenghts. Something I had Lee make up for me many years ago. I use a Paul Jones 11' Chamfering tool to chamfer the inside of the cases. Cases are annealed after every firing.

As for the leade or step I cound not tell you its a old reamer that Kirk had some years ago when I got my first 45-110 in 1994 so 15 years ago. Folks complained that it was too tight and could not load ammo to fit the chamber and cases, so he now makes a chamber .482 at the mouth go figure? I prefer the tighter chamber and well lets just say the target sure proves it in spades time after time. Jimbo Terry's Rifle has the exact same chamber it too is a shooter of some renown.

1874: I wipe, 3 damp riced patches and 1 dry with my PP loads in competition. Accuracy is ??? well its just damm scary when conditions are such that you can really put em in there. This is the same method I use in Creedmoor with my other rifle. Wipping patches are Pro Shot Products 2.5 inch round patches I use a Tipton Carbon Fiber heavy rod and Tipton 45 cal Nylon Brushes to put the patch on.

The solution is 1 part Nappa Cutting oil to 3 parts Distilled water. My bullets are patched with a solution of Rubbing alchool and Distilled water, after patching with Tap water an seeing the mineral deposits on my hot plate I gave that up and went to Distilled water. Bullets are wet patched of course rolled on my rubber block patching board. The patches are cut one at a time are .900 in width and patched up the side of the bullet .730 the .170 hangs over the end and is rollled over the rear of the bullet when patching no tail to twist or screw with accuracy.

Paper is Seth Cole 8# Tracing paper 25% rag content as I recall.


I mentioned I annealled my cases after every firing, I had some cases that were not annealled to test with exact same load they had soot about the necks after firing and at 700 yards would put the bullet about 2-3 MOA low out of the group. This again proves to me beyond any doubt the value of annealing ones cases for excellent accuracy at long Range.

The above bullet is available from BACO it's the Special Order .444 Wasserburger bullet.

Jim has it programed into the CNC and it is going to be a catolog item I think. The only thing I would change on it would be more of an elipitical Nose perhaps.

The Lunger
KW

[cajun shooter]

Thanks for the pics of Dora. And I only thought that my rifle had a large barrel, unreal diameter and as Don stated a real "BEAUTY". She would make 2 of my 13 lb rifle.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,
As for the leade or step I cound not tell you
...bummer...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charle the lede of the chamber is standard for Shiloh in this caliber, It plan just works, with GG's or PP, in my opinion, one can ummm Over think this thing too death. However I do trust Orville and Dan T both in the chamber design dept. However I dont aggree that one has to have special thick brass to get these rifles to work well. At least not in my case has that been soo cost for those supper thick cases is prohibitive in my opinon and I require often times 200 rounds for practice and match shooting.

Phoenix alone requires on the order of 180 rounds just for the 4 days of matches with 5 sighting shots at each yardage.

I believe in annealing with almost a reglious fevor anymore, Consistant chamber pressures (case seal) are one of my thoughts as to be conductive to top notch accuracy. I pay annal attention to my handloads (primer wads) I use a hand priming tool, and bullets cast to perfection and cutting my patches one at a time. Powder charges are weighed to the tenth of a grain. My Wad stack, the wads are cut and indexed by the direction I punch them, Mark on the bottom drawn when I cut the strip before it goes into my press mounted wad puch.

I know many folks say that the above they can see no difference in loading with such methods. :roll:

Most are likely too poor of a shot to know or see, the difference, in my opinion, and lack actual trigger time at the ranges I do my testing on a regular basis.:roll::???:

Not trying to be arrogent but its darn hard to argue with the results I have been getting doing it the way I am. I use a very good quality bench and a high quality rest to test off the bench with and rear bag the rifle also.

I have been told by some guys that cork wads wont work, mmm for spacing in the cartridge I think they are the cats meow, I seat my bullets deep in the case .420 for perfect bullet aligment they are well into the rifling and give Top Notch accuracy, but have been also told that wont work.:roll:

Many ways to skin the cat in my opinion.

:brokenima

KW
The Lunger

[montana_charlie]

I seat my bullets deep in the case .420 for perfect bullet aligment they are well into the rifling and give Top Notch accuracy, but have been also told that wont work.
I noticed that...which is what prompted my question about your chamber. I neglected to ask the length of your bullet.

Now that you have said it is a 'standard' one, I understand (and agree with) the seating depth you use.

Your comments (regarding a 'standard' chamber and 'normal' thickness case walls) are the first I have seen that make me think I might succeed with patched-to-bore bulets in my rifle's chamber.

Thanks for two very informative posts in this thread.

CM

[hydraulic]

I was there at Alliance watching Kenny. I also saw Kurt "leadpot" lay down and make 10 consecutive hits on the 1000 yd target with his .50-90 and this was during the match in that windstorm on Saturday. I got to shoot that rifle in practice. 707 gr. bullet, 110 grs. Swiss. I hit the 500 yd. target 3 out of 4 shots. Too bad I didn't shoot that well during the match. GET WELL, KENNY!

[Don McDowell]

Hydraulic, it was good to visit you again. I think your shooting will progress quite nicely, if anything I saw at the match means anything.
Ekalaka and Baker Mt. shoots are coming soon.:bigsmyl2:

[hydraulic]

Don: Where can I find info on those two shoots. Mrs. & I have been discussing another "vacation" trip to Montana. CM

[Don McDowell]

Charlie PM inbound

[StrawHat]

StrawHat, Please expand on this. Your first post indicated you are a casual shooter, not a serious target shooter. This leads me to think you have some other issues. Many things can contribute to accuracy (or lack of it) in any given rifle. How much do you compress your powder? What brand and powder granulation do you use? Primers? How far out do you seat your boolit? Is it a few thousandths off the lands or is the boolit engaged into them? What rifle / barrel combination do you have? What's the bore / groove diameter? The list goes on. I recommend you work on loads and only change one process or component at a time until you have worked up a satisfactory load for your purposes. It can be done, it just takes some patience. :D

Regards,
Bill

To all the kind folk who have offered help and suggestions.

Yup, I'm a casual shooter, very casual. I don't get to shoot very often any more but still enjoy every moment of trigger time I get. I also no longer have to have the ultimate in presicion and I am happy with what I call hunting accuracy. My approach to shooting has mellowed over the last couple of decades and I enjoy shooting more. To most of you who strive for the last .0000 of a group I must appear a sloppy shooter. I have read a lot of good info in this thread and may use some of it. Maybe not the way it was intended to be used but modified for my hunting rifles.

I understand compression and weight and etc all influence my loads but am happy to hit a paper dinner plate at anywhere from just off the muzzle to a couple hundred yards away. (Hunting shots are never more than 100 yards.)

Please continue this thread as learning is never a bad thing for me.

The Wheaties box comment was a reference to the "Breakfast of Champions" slogan, they wheaties wads did not help my shooting, they did not hurt it either. All the shots went were I had planned.

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions.