trail boss something new?

[44mag1]

I got ahold of some old 38-40 cartridges today. They have a rem-umc 38wcf headstamp. A 130 grain hollow point jacketed bullet. Strange thing is, when I pulled a bullet the powder looks just like trailboss only black instead of yellowish. I thought trailboss was a new development. There is 16 grains of this stuff in these loads by the way. These are balloon type cases and the bullet measures .399

[wiljen]

It may be shaped like it, but from the amount in the case I'm gonna venture a guess that it don't burn like it.

Assuming the typical factory ballistics, that would put your mystery powder somewhere in the vicinity of Blue Dot speed wise. The only load data I found for trail boss in 38-40 uses 5.5-5.7gr depending on bullet weight so 16 would be a helluva load to cram in the case. So much so that I'm gonna bet it cant be done.

[lylejb]

the trail boss i have ( about 2 weeks old) is a light gray color, not black, not yellow. it is a flake grain with a hole in the middle of the flake, like a tiny doughnut.

[autofix4u]

I load a lot of trail boss & 12 grs will fill a 30-30 case almost to the neck. I don't think you could stuff 16 in 38-40. but I have a 10lb steel unmarked can of powder my grand dad gave me that looks just like trail boss, but its black. he said he didn't know what it was but "it burns bout like blue dot" I haven't loaded any and don't know if I ever will. may be the same stuff you have.

[RayinNH]

There was a powder called "Lightning" made by Laflin & Rand. I have a picture of it in an old Ideal Manual, little dark donuts like Trail Boss. No load data with it and the .38WCF cartridge. The manual said it was an excellent powder for medium size cases...Ray

[runfiverun]

ray's got it. there was a powder that was shaped like trail boss is now.
it was used quite a bit in it's day.

[44mag1]

I was suprised to see how much this stuff weighs for volume. I guessed around 7 grains before I put it on the scale.

[Bret4207]

Unless they are recent reloads don't even bother trying to guess what powder it is. If they are factory, and I've never heard of 130's in the 38-40 much less a 130HP, they could be 50-70 years old. Definitely not Trailboss.

[jhrosier]

Couple of notes:

Double check the bullet weight. 180grs is more likely than 130, although Winchester did make some high speed loads for use in rifles only, with lighter than normal bullets.

When smokeless powder was first used to replace black powder, many of the powders available for handloading were deliberately made very bulky and intended to be used measured by volume, the same as the earlier black powder. The donut shape of trailboss is not coincidental. It makes a small amount of fast burning powder fit in a large space.

Jack

[44man]

Every factory has test equipment for burn and pressure rates. They get all kinds of powder from both sides of canister rates that we buy.
I don't think you will ever find the same powder in a cartridge from week to week.
There is NO WAY to know what powder is in your factory loads.
If you pull a bullet, dump the powder and never try to duplicate the load, it can't be done.
I will tell you a story about my friend. Every year he would buy at least 5 boxes of Fed premium ammo even though he just deer hunted. Sometimes he bought 150 gr and others 180 gr for his 30-06. Over time he had a huge amount of loads piled up.
One day his niece came over and found them. She dumped all the boxes on the floor and put them in an ammo can all mixed up.
Talk about a scatter gun! :coffee:
I pulled all the bullets. I found six different powders just from appearance and even more different bullets from Hornady, Sierra, you name it plus different shaped bullets from the same company. I dumped the powders and threw the bullets in a box.
From that point, guess who had to load all of his ammo? :mrgreen:

[44mag1]

I pulled the bullets out of curiosity. They are old balloon type cases that wont be reloaded by me. I too found it odd the bullets only weighed 130 grains. The bullets are hollow point and have a deep hollow base. The doughnut powder is what caught me by suprise.

[TAWILDCATT]

there reloads.cowboy action shooters would like those cases as they would load them with black.you cant load morden cases to same power with black as they wont hold enuf black.:coffee:

[MT Gianni]

The latest edition of The Fouling Shot has an article on Trail Boss that includes the author asking the factory if they brought out Less-Smoke or Sharpshooter. Many older powders were shaped differently as people worked on their ideas. The wheel wasn't invented yesterday.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

A friend gave me a six pound can of powder made by Hercules Powder Co. It has a date of Nov.1939. on the lable so I assume that was the year it was made. Each granule is shaped like a small donut. The powder looked good so I loaded a few case of '06. I think I used about 18 grns. Worked fine. It does leave lots of burned powder in the bore. It has another down side. It meters poorly.