1891 Argentine

[Jeffreytooker]

The Boolit Gods had a talk with my neighbor. I told the list that my neighbor had a rifle. Also he wanted to know to know if I had an intrest in it. I told him I would like to look at it. He said his uncle got it not long after WWII. He thought it might be an Argentine. I saw it, we did the deal, and now it is mine. He needed a scope for his 270 Win. His was loose inside. I gave him a Pronghorn (Simmons??) 3X9, and he was very happy. I can get another scope. I cant get another rifle like this. Pictures attached.

Now for the good part. The rifle is an 1891 Argentine. It is in very good shape. The crest has been ground off. The blue is in good condition. all parts are numbered and match. The number is R38XX.

For obvious reasons this will be a dedicated Cast Boolit rifle. Two questions, where can I get brass? What would be a good pressure limit for this rifle, about 35K?

Fortunatly I have a set of RCBS dies for 7.65 Argie. The best mould I have for it is an Egan MX430ARD. I have lots of SR4759. Does anyone have some light (~1500 FPS) loads for this rifle.

This rifle has to go to Winnemucca.

Jeffrey

[Char-Gar]

Graf and Sons sells the brass or you can make it from 30-06 cases. I picked up some Norma cases when Graf closed them out. My 91 Argentine runs .314 in the grooves. I would SWAG about 16/4759 for the velocity range you are seeking. I don't know what the max pressure is for the actions, but they will hold any reasonable cast bullet load you want to shoot with plenty strength to spare.

[Bret4207]

Nice! You got the carbine. Very cool! I've been using Grafs brass in my '91 and am very happy with it. So far I've used the original Fat 30 mold and 13.0 Red Dot. It shoots OK, but could do better. You may luck out and have the Eagan work for you. As far as pressure, I think of the '91 as being in the Krag catagory, not quite up to the 93/95 Mauser and certainly not up with the '98 Mauser. Regardless you can launch a 150 gr bullet at around 2750 with facotry ammo IIRC, and a 180-200 gr boolit at 16-2200 depending on your luck. The latter will take anything this side of a big bear or long distance elk given the right situation. Good catch!

[Jeffreytooker]

[ You may luck out and have the Eagan work for you.

Brett:

I checked the Egan Mould. It is a .311. I looked through all of my OLD stuff that has finally gotten where I am. I have a 314299. I also have a .314 lee sizing die.
I did not remember that I had the mould. It should give me a good place to start. I need to slug the bore before I go much further. I have 40 rounds of brass that I made from 7X57 brass. I will keep the Graf brass in mind.

I have never had a Mauser that was pre 98. This one is a beautiful piece of workmanship. I notice that there are several major diffrences between it and the 98's. Was the twist on the 91's for long heavy bullets? I know the 03 Government was for heavy round nose bullets. What is a real word expectation for group size at 100 yds?

Jeffrey

[KCSO]

I really prefer to make mine from 8 mm Mauser brass as there is less trimming involved. The Graf's 7.65 brass is good. I have a hundred of these and have yet to load one enough times to split or crack one. I also lucked into a buy on some loaded ammo (Privi?) and I have 150 rounds of that in reserve. I can't wait to try my altered Lee 312 mold in my sporter. My Carbine is a little too generous in the bore for this particular bullet. My sporter runs 311 and a pinch and the carbine is 313. I use mostly Red dot for plinking and either IMR 4895 or WW 748 for hunting.
As to the Red Dot, I mention it a lot but this is because I am so cheap, a fellow I know quit reloading shotshells and GAVE me 8 pounds of Red Dot and 8 pounds of Herco, so I worked up a LOT of loads with these two. You have a nice rifle there and if you find the bullet it likes you will have a real shooter.

[David R]

I have one, it shoots soupcans great with 12 grains of red dot. My groove is .314, so I am in the fat 30 group buy too. Mine also has a 4 digit serial #. 15 grains of WC820 with a C314 150 group buy mold works well too. Nothing but pointed boolits will feed from a full magazine. Soupcans have to be loaded one at a time. I made one of those home made foul out barrel cleaners. Once I got it clean, I could see how rounded the rifling is and why I can't load a boolit long enough to touch the lands. It shoots fine.

I don't have a .314 or .315 size die for my Lyman 450, so I use Lee liquid mule snot and a .314 push through die. I have made brass from '06 and 270. I am too cheap to buy new. I just run it in the sizer die and trim. I cut most of the extra brass off in my band saw then trim with a LEE trimmer. Works for me.

Its a fun rifle. I think the sights are good for a million yards.

David

[45 2.1]

Argies love the Fat30 with about 19 to 20 gr. of SR4759. Accuracy is better than you can hold.

[Jeffreytooker]

Accuracy is better than you can hold.[/QUOTE]

45 2.1

With me that does not always take a lot. It looks like it will be an enjoyable rifle to shoot.

Jeffrey

[StarMetal]

Nice rifle, but it's not the carbine. The carbines have 17 inch barrel and wood all the way to the muzzle, sling swivels on the left hand sides of the stock, a much smaller forearm wood ahead of the rear sight, and a bent bolt handle. Looks like someone modified the full length rifle. Should be a good shooter.

Joe

[Huffmanite]

Congradulations. I bought a 1891 Argentine over 40 years ago and still have it. Well made rifle, but if you ever rebarrel it :) you'll find yourself limited on choice of calibers, such as 257 Roberts or 6.5X55 Swedish because strength of its small ring action too weak for more powerful calibers. Take a look at surplusrifle.com Has some useful info there on the 1891, history, disassembly and etc. Now if I can talk my neighbor out of his with a deal like yours..........

[Buckshot]

...............What Joe said. The M91 Argentines have to be right next to my 03A1 Springfield as fav-o-rite boltgun. They're slim and trim, bolt operates VERY smooth, inline feed is slick and I think that magazine looks racey!

Ya need to lay in a spare extractor when you can. Not that they a prone to breaking, as I have 3 M91's and haven't had one break yet. However they ARE small and they aren't making new ones any longer. I try to keep spare necessities like this on hand for every old rifle I have. Springfield Sporters would be your best bet, although I just bought 2 M91 extractors on E-Bay:

ravmahal(673) 2 for $9.98 $14.22 total 1891 Argentine Mauser Extractor - Original (7226916449)

Which is about what Springfield Sporters would charge after shipping.

EXTRACTOR - NEW 6.00
MAINSPRING 3.00
EJECTOR 3.00

The above are the essentials. If there was a firing pin available, I'd lay one of those in too (SS doesn't list them). It's just that the parts are inexpensive and having one break will put a sudden stop to your shooting.

I have 5 Argentines 2 x 1909 and 3 x 1891. They run the gamut in the so called 'Fat 30' sizes, but the M91's are the tightest. One is .300x.310" and another is .301x.312". A M91 Engineer's carbine is .302x.314" which is about what both 1909's are.

For loads you can use about any cast load shown for the 308. As the 7.65x53 is considered an old time full power main battle rifle cartridge you can use the 13.0 Red Dot and 16.0/2400 common loads. However one of my favorites is the Ly 314299 and 22.0 H4198 + dacron.

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Jtooker- Not sure what the twist is, but I think the original loading was somewhere in the 200-220 gr area, then reduced to 170'ish, then to 150 in some of the commercial stuff. I'll bet the throat is long like in mine. Most everything from that era was for a long RN boolit till the French and Germans came up with the spitzers, I forget who was first. I do know the 7.65 Argie round has no flies on it and will pretty much match or even exceed the 308 Win in the proper rifle.

Those '91 action sure are neat, eh? The whole layout makes for a trim, light rifle. Just takes a little getting used to re-the magazine. But then I understand some folks find SMLE's "ugly" too....

[StarMetal]

The rifling twist is 1 in 9 4/5 inches.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Jeffreytooker

Quite a good deal for an excellent rifle! Numerous good comments on it. I've got two '09s and five M91s. One of the M91s I've converted to .35 Rem. You'll find the original 7.65 cartridge a very useful one especially with the number of .310-.312” commercial bullets available. Of course there are numerous cast designs that work very well. My favorite moulds are the Lee 314-90-TL, Lee 311-185 and the Lyman 314299. 2.8 gr of Bullseye with the 90 gr Lee runs 850 fps and is an excellent gallery, plinking, small game load. Around 18 gr of 4759 under the Lee 185 gr bullet is good for accuracy at around 1700 fps. THE most accurate load is 27 gr H4895 or 28 gr of milsurp 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler over it under the 314299 (sized .312 or .314, lubed with Javelina and using Hornady GCs). This load will consistently shoot MOA (100 yards) at 1810 fps in a 24" barrel and right at 1900 fps in the 29.25" rifle.

I also have some commercial brass but prefer to form my own. While I have the form die and have used plenty of '06 brass for it I now prefer to use commercial 8mm. I use R-P brass for this simply because I use W-W for my 8mm loads and it's an easy "check" using the headstamp to know which is which. With the 8mm brass you can simply rung the cases into the 7.65 FL die and trim (minimal compared to '06 brass). It's also nice because you are setting the shoulder back with this method and can adjust the die so the cases are a perfect fit for the headspace of your rifle.

I also disagree with the comment regarding small ring Mausers are "weak". I believe this to be an off shoot of some poorly made Spanish M93s. That fact has grown into a myth directed toward all SR Mausers. I have rebarreled a couple to .308 and .358 Winchester in years past and they are both going strong even with lots of factory and milsurp ammo through them. Numerous other M91 have been rebarreled without problems. Kimber rebarreled thousands of M96 Swedes to .22-250 and .308 Winchester and we're not hearing any problems with them. I also for years have been shooting, in one M91, a 150 gr Hornady .312 bullet over a healthy but safe dose of 4895 (2 gr under what I consider to be max) and it runs 2922 fps from a 24" barrel. Doesn't sound "weak" to me!. I have shot over 500 rounds (brick of bullets plus another box or two) rounds of this load with nary a problem or hint of excess pressure. I've also shot up around 2,000 Speer 125 gr .311s at 3135 fps with 4895 in the same rifle. I measured the headspace when I got the rifle and the headspace has not changed. I have another M91 (slightly frosted bore) that I've run lots of surplus SKS/AK bullets through at 2900 fps (max velocity the bullets will take) without problems. Norma factory 150s (safe in the M91) run right at 2875 fps in these 24" barrels (2927 fps in the 29.25" rifle barrel). Argentine made surplus (very poor ammo by the way) is pretty close to the same. Well I'm off the topic here, if anyone wants to discuss the relative merits, strengths and weaknesses of M91 Mausers actions start a thread and I'll be there.

Again, very nice rifle and you will enjoy it with cast bullets quite a lot.

Larry Gibson

[KCSO]

I believe Frank DeHass covered this pretty well when he said tha actions were not weaker, but lacked the safety features of the 98, especially gas relief. I have a 91 chambered to 7 mm Mauser and it is an excellent rifle, but not much better than the original.

[Bret4207]

Larry- I'm not claiming their weak. As I said in an earlier post you and I agree about the "weakness" of the 93/95, etc. But, they are and older design with a bit less beef to them and lack some features the later Mausers do as KCSO said. I just use my opinion as a rough guideline. I've seen some 98 Mausers, Enfields, Springfields, Remingtons and Winchesters I wouldn't shoot for love nor money. Each rifle is an individual and has to be treated that way. Same with the '17 S+W, '17 Colt, some H+R's, etc.

Personally I shoot a '93 in 7x57 with loads that are right up with any modern Ruger, Winchester , etc. No stretching of brass, no new headspace, no porblems, except it's UGLY. Worst looking Bishop stock you ever saw.

[Urny]

Numrich at www.e-gunparts.com has the firing pins, part # 2600, for $23.40. Thought you'd all want to know.

[Jeffreytooker]

[ THE most accurate load is 27 gr H4895 or 28 gr of milsurp 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler over it under the 314299 (sized .312 or .314, lubed with Javelina and using Hornady GCs). This load will consistently shoot MOA (100 yards) at 1810 fps in a 24" barrel and right at 1900 fps in the 29.25" rifle.

Larry:

You mention the 24" and the 29.25" barrels. Of course the 29.25" is the long rifle. Starmetal mentioned that the carbine has a 17" barrel. I have one that is about a 24" barrel. What is it? It seems to be an unaltered rifle except for the ground off crest.

Jeffrey

[StarMetal]

They made three carbines, the Cavalry carbine, the Engineer carbine, and the Police carbine. The Engineer had bayonet mounts the other two didn't. All the carbines I speak of have a 17 inch barrel. There is a 1909 Argentine carbine also, but this is built on a 98 Mauser action and the barrel I believe is 20.5 inches long. Here's a picture of a 1891 Engineer carbine, notice the bayonets bands/lugs.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=Larry:

You mention the 24" and the 29.25" barrels. Of course the 29.25" is the long rifle. Starmetal mentioned that the carbine has a 17" barrel. I have one that is about a 24" barrel. What is it? It seems to be an unaltered rifle except for the ground off crest.

Jeffrey[/QUOTE]

The 29.25" is of course the rifle, the 24" is the length that some distributer cut them to when they were semi sporterized on import for sale. There in lies the difference.

These can be found at gunshows and shops for $60- $125 in really excellent condition. The stocks are cut off at the front right in front of the middle barrel band retainer. They sometimes retain the handguard. They usually have the original rear sight and some have the original front sight while others have a sporter ramp front sight. Most have excellent bores and were shot very little due to the high cost of Norma ammo. Wasn't much surplus available back then but what there was was really corrosive so some barrels are pretty bad. I usually use these for conversion.

I have 4 of these sporterized M91s including my latest conversion to .35 Remington. These are my "shooters". I shoot only cast in the original long rifle. I shoot cast and jacketed through the others. They are excellent rifles, reall sleepers which keeps the prices down. Perhaps I should say they are weak and not shootable? Ok, so everyone send yours to me and I'll "properly" dispose of them;-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I'm Larry's disposal company. He examines them and then sends them along to me. Hey Larry...haven't gotten anything from you lately...how about picking up the pace pardner.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry- I'm not claiming their weak. As I said in an earlier post you and I agree about the "weakness" of the 93/95, etc. But, they are and older design with a bit less beef to them and lack some features the later Mausers do as KCSO said. I just use my opinion as a rough guideline. I've seen some 98 Mausers, Enfields, Springfields, Remingtons and Winchesters I wouldn't shoot for love nor money. Each rifle is an individual and has to be treated that way. Same with the '17 S+W, '17 Colt, some H+R's, etc.

Personally I shoot a '93 in 7x57 with loads that are right up with any modern Ruger, Winchester , etc. No stretching of brass, no new headspace, no porblems, except it's UGLY. Worst looking Bishop stock you ever saw.

I was just making the staement in general too, not directed at you. Sorry about the way it came out. I agree the M98 has much better gas handling safety features than the SRs. That was needed back then with the metalurgy of cartridge case making not keeping up with the pressures of smokeless powders. We don't have those problems with modern brass, even surplus brass thats 50 years old. It was that made up through the '30s that really caused problems. Compare the M91 to a M700 or several of the other current sporters, there really isn'nt much difference in front reciever ring size or the ability to handle escaped gas. Also the steel and heat treatment of these German made M91s is up to par. Then compare the workmanship, you won't find any new rifle that matches what they put into these old rifles.

I also have an Oviedo M93 made in '28 that I first converted to .308 in '68. It is on it's 3rd barrel. I have a M95 in the original 7x57 that was sporterized. I to push the loads to modern specs in it with no problems. I agree that many of the old military actions went through some hard times as have many of the modern actions you mention. One must be careful when buying these because a lot of surplus rifles are damaged by fire and not reheat treated (same with a lot of commercail used guns). The Republican forces in Spain (communists) were critically short of arms and took some real short cuts in production of their M93s, especially the heat treatment. I believe this is where the bad rap comes in as numerous were converted to FR7s. Some of those seem pretty soft. Most of the Oviedo's made prior to the mid 30's seem to hold up without problem. (Note; The CETME cartridge was NOT made for the FR7 because of this) However, if one is selective and gets a M91 Mauser in excellent condition there is no reason to consider it weak. It can be loaded up to it's original specifications which are pretty "modern" if you ask me.

Larry Gibson

[Jeffreytooker]

Larry Et Al:

I talked (by email) to a friend of mine who is a Cruffler. He told me the same thing you did about the sporterizing. He also said some were rechambered to 30-06. I checked mine with an 06 round. The case head is about 1/2" out when it stops going into the chamber. It chambers a 7.65 round properly. I believe it is still a 7.65.

I was cleaning the 91 and a 1909 Argie that I have. The 09 started as a well used and a bit rusty barreled action. It is now in a cheap birch (or Basswood?) aftermarket stock. When I ran a patch through the 09 it was not near as tight a patch through the 91. The bore on th 09 is dark and pitted. The bore on the 91 is bright and shiney.

I have to get some oak dowels. Then I will slug the bores on both ends and slug the throats. I will probably end up with a diffrent bullet for each rifle. What are design spec land and groove diameters for the 7.65?

Jeffrey

[Larry Gibson]

I'm Larry's disposal company. He examines them and then sends them along to me. Hey Larry...haven't gotten anything from you lately...how about picking up the pace pardner.

Joe

Nice try Joe!

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Jeffreytooker

]Larry Et Al:

I talked (by email) to a friend of mine who is a Cruffler. He told me the same thing you did about the sporterizing. He also said some were rechambered to 30-06. I checked mine with an 06 round. The case head is about 1/2" out when it stops going into the chamber. It chambers a 7.65 round properly. I believe it is still a 7.65.

I was cleaning the 91 and a 1909 Argie that I have. The 09 started as a well used and a bit rusty barreled action. It is now in a cheap birch (or Basswood?) aftermarket stock. When I ran a patch through the 09 it was not near as tight a patch through the 91. The bore on th 09 is dark and pitted. The bore on the 91 is bright and shiney.

I have to get some oak dowels. Then I will slug the bores on both ends and slug the throats. I will probably end up with a diffrent bullet for each rifle. What are design spec land and groove diameters for the 7.65?

Jeffrey[/QUOTE]

The only .7.65s I've seen rechambered to '06 were the '09s. The M91s magazine isn't quite long enough for the '06. Sounds like yours is still the original chamber. It's really to bad they rechambered them with '06 reamers as most '09s done that way won't shoot '06 ammo for crap. When loaded with .311-312 bullets they are very good shooters though.

My '09 has a pretty rough bore also and sounds like it was pretty much like yours when I got it. I've used this technique with several rifles with bores in the same condition to polish them up a bit. See if you can find a couple hundred .310-311" flat base AK/SKS bullets that have copper clad steel jackets. Load them over 16 gr of Unique and shoot them without cleaning the barrel. Then scrub it out real well using a good bore cleaner along with a treatment or two of Sweat's. It won't remove the pits of course but it polishes up the bore fairly well and mine now shoots really well with Hornady .312" 150 gr SPs and 314299 sized .314". I've used this technique with several M1903s, a Ross Mk10, several 7.65s and numerous M91 MNs. It also works with 8mms using the turkish steel jacketed bullets. A side benifit is the Unique loads run 1800-1900 fps and are fun to shoot.

Larry Gibson

[Jeffreytooker]

Larry Et Al:

I got word that the fellow I got the 91 from had a paper about the rifle. I went over and he gave me the flyer that came with the rifle. It is attached below. Contact me PM if you want high resolution copies. It is from Montgomery Wards. It states all of the particulars. My guess is that it was after WWII. Does anyone have any more background?

Jeffrey

[Jeffreytooker]

I have to get some oak dowels. Then I will slug the bores on both ends and slug the throats. I will probably end up with a diffrent bullet for each rifle. What are design spec land and groove diameters for the 7.65?

Jeffrey[/QUOTE]

To All:

I slugged the bore (muzzle end) on both the 91 and the 09. I am not setup to slug the chamber end and the throats yet. The 91 is right at .311. The land diameter is about .303. The 09 is at .318. The 91 should be able to shoot the Boolits I have loaded in the cases. They are .312 MX430ARD Egan and about 214 gr. If the storms let up I may get to the range at the end of the week.

The 09 is bad news. I will save it for a next winter projest. I have a Mauser carbine barrel in 7X57. That will probably go on the 09. It will be a lot less work than fighting a worn out .318 bore.

Jeffrey

[Buckshot]

"...............What are design spec land and groove diameters for the 7.65?"

I believe that would be about .301X.312"

I have 2 M91 Infantry rifles both are tightly bored. One is .300x.310 the other is .301x.312" My Engineer's carbine (M91) is .301x.314".

The 2 M1909 Argentine cavalry carbines both have .314" grooves but one suffers with a .303" land. Had to size down some Ly 323470 Loverins from .325" to .314" to get the fat land one to shoot.

................Buckshot

[Larry Gibson]

"...............What are design spec land and groove diameters for the 7.65?"

The 2 M1909 Argentine cavalry carbines both have .314" grooves but one suffers with a .303" land. Had to size down some Ly 323470 Loverins from .325" to .314" to get the fat land one to shoot.

................Buckshot

Are those Argentine made or German made barrels? I have suspicians that the Argie made guns have Belgian barrels on them as they generally fit the specs of the 7.65 Belgian cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[Buckshot]

Are those Argentine made or German made barrels? I have suspicians that the Argie made guns have Belgian barrels on them as they generally fit the specs of the 7.65 Belgian cartridge.

Larry Gibson

Argentine made, not DWM.

...............Buckshot

[Larry Gibson]

Argentine made, not DWM.

...............Buckshot

That's consistant with my other findings, thanks.

Larry Gibson