.50-70 U.s. M1871 Rb

[mhb]

The subject rifle is the latest of several in this caliber I've had over the years, but is the first which is just too good NOT to shoot.
Direct measurement of the groove diameter tells me that I need a bullet which is at least .517" as-cast, and preferably not over about 350 grains weight, since the rifling pitch is 1-42".
Help! I'd be glad to be able to buy such a bullet ready-made, since I don't envision shooting this rifle a great deal - still, I've GOT to know what it will do.
What available mold(s) might meet the above criteria, and/or who has bullets?
Thanks;
mhb - Mike

[45 2.1]

Check out Lymans new boolit listings. They have a reproduction of a 350 gr. 50 caliber mold that was obsolete. I have an original that casts about 0.516". A real good boolit.

http://lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/images/515139.GIF 515139 Single Cavity Weight (#2 Alloy) 340 gr. Mould # 2640139 Top Punch Number 191 Top Punch Part Number 2786701
A lightweight bullet designed for use in 50 Calibers such as the 50-70 and 56-50.

[Dale53]

mhb;
If you are not an experienced BPCR shooter, you might want to look at Croft Barker's book:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=18&subId=128&styleId=434&partNum=BOOK-50-70-SH

The thought of a good bullet (such as illustrated by "45 2.1"), a case full of Black Powder (I prefer Swiss) bullet lubricated with Emmert's lube, the bullet cast from an alloy of 30/1 Lead/tin in a good rifle like you have really makes my heart sing.

Good luck!
Dale53

[mhb]

Thanks for the input! I saw the 515139 listed in Lyman's current lineup, and identified it as a good candidate, but wanted some user feedback as to expected diameter - I'll also check with Lyman for their guidance.
I have been shooting BP breechloaders for more than 40 years, sort-of. I also shoot front stuffers, but MUCH prefer to use smokeless in cartridge arms whenever possible. After considerable trial and error, I'm firmly convinced that undersized cast bullets and smokeless are a waste of components (though the sound made by a 458125 going downrange sideways IS charming, in a way).
Dale53: thanks for the kind words - this really IS a good rifle - it is the best one of its type I've ever seen - if not perfectly brand-new, it is the closest thing you are likely to find in a rifle 134 years old - and it is in the high 90's, percentile-wise overall - perfect 'ESA' cartouche, and the bore is absolutely mint.
I've got to get it to shoot as well as it possibly can, because I've got a challenge-match to shoot with a fellow lover of the oldies - in our monthly military rifle as-issued benchrest match, I typically shoot U.S. arms of much later dates (well, 1903 through M1), while he shows up with the worst old foreign junk (Vetterli, Berdan II, 71, 71/84, Martini-Henry, Werndl, Beaumont, Snider (!), etc.), and worse yet, usually shoots scores only a couple of points less than I do. When he's in his 'modern' mode, he trots out various Mosin-Nagants, Danish Krags, Jap Arisakas, Siamese Mausers, etc., and does equally well. I've got my work cut out!
mhb - Mike

[Buckshot]

..............Is your 50-70 a NYNG or a U.S. Navy? My muzzle loading mentor (or the guy who put up with all my questions) had a 3 band NYNG RB in really nice shape. He shot 450gr slugs from a Lee mould I believe. He wasn't a very big guy and loaded like 55.0grs of 2F BP as he said full loads really rocked his world!

Used to kind of bother me how the hammer would fall part way when the breech was closed.

...............Buckshot

[mhb]

Neither one, actually. I used to have a NY RB, but this one is a model 1871 U.S. Army, made at Springfield in 1872, and so-marked. The U.S. Navy rifles were the model 1870 - the first 10,000 Navy models were sold to France during the Franco-Prussian War (the Navy stated that the rear sight was too close to the breech), and with the proceeds, the Navy bought another 12,000 rifles with the rear sight further forward - these rifles had (IIRC) 32 5/8" barrels. The Army subsequently ordered 10,000 rifles for tests (as they were never adopted as standard), which were similar to the second batch of Navy rifles except for having 36" barrels and taking the standard Army triangular/socket bayonet.
The hammer drop was an intentional design feature of the early Remington military RBs, including the Springfield-built ones, which makes some sense in a military rifle - when the breeckblock is closed, the hammer is allowed to go forward (automatically) only far enough to lock the breechblock against inadvertent opening - this made it unnecessary for the soldier to manually lower the hammer to half-cock if he did not need to fire immediately, and offered a much shorter cocking motion when he did resume fire. It did, of course, require that he cock the rifle again for each shot - later RB muskets did not have this feature, and sporting RBs apparently never did.
mhb - Mike

[Dale53]

If you do not wish to shoot straight black in the Roller, you might consider duplex loading (10% primer charge of smokeless [RL-7, 4759, or 4227 - I prefer RL-7 as it measures well and is a bit slower burning than 4227) than a case full of black powder. Since people tell me that they have difficulty figuring (10% of What?) I'll lay it out for you. First, you find how much black powder it takes (use a drop tube to compact it). Say it takes 65.0 grains of black up to the base of a seated bullet. 10% of the black would be 6.5 grs of smokeless. Then, you deduct that 10% from the black powder load and arrive at 6.5 grs of smokeless and 58.5 of drop tubed black powder. This load will shoot clean and eliminate the use of the blow tube. In fact, you can liiterally shoot all day without cleaning.

After the days shoot, you use a normal clean-up of black powder. A good black powder solvent (three wet patches, then two dry ones and a final patch with your favorite preservative). I use "Friendship Speed Juice" a home mix for the black powder solvent: One pint of Murphy's Oil Soap, one pint of rubbing alcohol, and one pint of Hydrogen Peroxide. Mix them together and keep in a dark place. I use the peroxide bottle (dark bottle) for range use as the peroxide will go bad with exposure to light. This is the best black powder solvent that I have ever used. It is inexpensive and the ingredients are available at your super market or drugstore. You MUST use a preservative immediately after use of the "Speed Juice" as it really removes EVERYTHING. I use Break Free or Birchwood Casey's "Sheath" as a preservative. Clean up of a BPCR takes only five minutes or less (I use a wet patch to clean off the exterior then use the preservative). I have three black powder cartridge rifles and they have fired thousands of shots and are still like new.

I also use Friendship Speed Juice in my muzzleloaders with a somewhat different technique.

Dale53

[mhb]

Thanks for your interest and the information.
As I said originally, my concern is to find a bullet which meets the requirements I stated, for this one rifle. I'd prefer not to shoot black at all, in my breechloading rifles, if I can avoid it - and I've got a something-more-than lifetime supply of 4759, which has always worked very well for me in duplicating BP ballistics with cast bullets.
mhb - Mike

[HORNET]

Mike,
RCBS also lists a mold for an adjustable length Hodgden design NSSA bullet in a .520 diameter figured for straight lead. This should go a little bigger if alloyed and would let you play with different weights to find out the length that will stabilize at the velocity that you want. I believe this is a hollow base which could be used as-is or could be modified ( or a spare plug made) to a solid base. You might also investigate paper patching one of the boolits made for a .500 muzzleloader to bring the diameter up ( time consuming but interesting- picture the LEE .50 modern target minnie in pure lead at full throttle -- ouch!!).:Fire:

[mhb]

Thanks for the tip on the RCBS .520 - that would be an interesting candidate - I don't know as I've ever seen an adjustable HB design, though it makes sense mechanically. I'll check it out!
I'd already thought about paper-patching some .500 or .505 types - I'd done something similar in the past for a couple of oddball rifles - a Romanian Peabody and an Albini-Braendlin, which, strangely enough, had identical internal measurements - .4375 bore, .468 grooves. For both of these, I settled on patching-up standard .457 bullets. They shot well enough to tell me what I wanted to know about the rifles (neither of which I have now), but were interesting in another way: the grooves were so deep that the patch was essentially ironed-in to the bullet body, and while the turned-over base of the patch was always cut off, leaving little discs scattered ahead of the rifle, the patches themselves, so far as I could determine, never DID separate - they performed as paper JACKETED bullets.
And, too, I'm reluctant to shoot many paper patches through a wrought-iron barrel - in my experience, they will 'polish' the snot out of the barrel, and this one is too nice to risk doing any unnecessary damage to.
mhb - Mike

[Dale53]

I have never been interested in paper patched bullets for general use but I AM interested in them strictly for hunting. They are probably as near a perfect hunting bullet for BPCR as has ever been developed. Nearly pure lead, driven at the high speeds attainable in a Ruger #1 or, in my case, a #3 .45/70, should do awesome work on Bambi's mother or father. I will probably be hunting with my #3 this coming fall and will probably use the Gould 330 gr H.P. bullet (25/1 lead/tin) ahead of a duplex black powder load. That propellant will allow me to drive a soft bullet as fast as I need for a 150 yard rifle. All of my deer have been taken under 100 yards (all with a hand gun). I'll probably feel that I am cheating using a rifle:mrgreen:

Dale53

[drinks]

It would be about $20 to try one of the Lee molds, with some Beagleing, it should be plenty big.