Why paper patch?

[stephen]

I have been reading a few of these posts on PP boolits but the main question I have is WHY? Is it just to reduce leading or are there also accuracy improvements? Is this mainly for older calibers, or applicable to 308 and the like? Thanks for the help.
Stephen

[JeffinNZ]

For me PPing allows me to use an otherwise undersized bullet in my muzzleloader. Bare bullet measures .396 which is .004 undersize for the .400 bore. PPing takes the girth up to .403 which is a great fit and shoots amazingly well.

[giz189]

Because it is really fun ! And yes, it can be used in any cartridge you desire. Although some are easier than others I have discovered. Smokeless or Black Powder. I prefer black in my 45-70's. Smokeless in 30 caliber and up. Haven't tried it in anything smaller than 30 but some folks have. Loads of fun and very educational in the learning curve of shooting "the old way".

[docone31]

I paper patch because my rifle shoots better with patched loads than jacketeds!
I never would have believed it untill I saw it myself.
I patch .30s, and .303 British. Good clean bores, good accuracy, easy shooting, and definately not boring.

[softpoint]

I had been interested in paper patching for years, but didn't do any of it till a few months ago, thanks to the addiction enablers right here at CB!
My take on it now is that Iprimarily do it for hunting loads, because I can shoot a soft lead expanding slug at greater velocity. Accuracy in my .45/70's is about the same as regular cast and lubed, There really is no downside to paper patch. Try it, you'll like it!!:-D

[6.5 mike]

It also lets you put some old off size bore rifles back into top shooting form. I've got a fn 7mm with a .285/.290 bore, two wraps of meade tracing paper around a lee .2865 boolit give me a .291 finished. You can about drop a j word bullet through the bore otherwise.
You can also polish a bore that is on the dark side. It's not fire lapping, but fire polishing. Works great in old mil-surps. I've done two so far & in 10 rds each could see the improvement in both.
It lets you push a correctly sized soft lead boolit at near factory speeds without leading & with as good or sometimes better groups. A few million buffalo can't be wrong.

[1874Sharps]

Casting, rolling and loading paper patch bullets: It conjures images of Old West buffalo hunters "rolling their own" in camp after a day of hunting. Invented around 1870, paper patch bullets were cutting edge technology until the late 1880s when they were eclipsed by metal jacketed bullets and smokeless powder. All the major armies of the world in this time period used paper patch bullets with the exception of the United States. The Sharps Rifle Company, back in the heyday of the 1870s buffalo hunters, primarily manufactured ammunition with paper patch bullets for its famous rifles. Paper patch bullets still provide many advantages to the modern shooter:

1. The ballistic coefficient is slightly higher than a comparable conventional grooved bullet and is therefore affected less by wind.

2. The lead bullet never contacts the bore of the rifle, therefore there is no leading of the bore.

3. Higher velocities (up to around 2,500 fps) can be achieved with paper patch bullets as compared to conventional cast grooved bullets without gas checks.

4. The amount of expansion of the bullet for hunting purposes can be controlled by using softer or harder alloy bullets, thus giving more or less expansion on the big game being hunted.

5. The paper patch has a burnishing, polishing effect on the bore which tends to remove the usual light tool marks found in new barrels.

6. By using either thicker or thinner paper, the total patched diameter of the bullet can be tailored to a specific bore and therefore be accurate in a slightly oversized barrel, as is commonly found on older trapdoor Springfield 45-70s.

I have a mold custom made by Lee that casts a 168 grain bullet at 0.301" and has a standard gas check shank. I then patch it up and size it to 0.309" and have used this bullet in two 30-06 rifles, a 7.5 mm Swiss K-31 and even my 303 Brit (sized to 0.310"). This bullet gives me 1.5 MOA and 2,500 fps over the chronograph. The bullet is cast of a semi-soft alloy and expands comaparably to a copper jacketed bullet (over 60 cal) and retains 84% of its weight. There really is not much more you can expect from a bullet!

[pdawg_shooter]

It is simple. Paper patching lets you get jacketed bullet performance form cast, home made bullets. Match the BHN to the velocity and you have the perfect hunting bullet. No leading because the lead never touches the barrel. It is very rewarding to match performance of a high dollar condom bullet with something you made yourself.

[45 2.1]

It is very rewarding to match performance of a high dollar condom bullet with something you made yourself.

Or get something that you can't buy that has absolutely top notch performance.

[Eagle]

I have wanted to get into this PP myself. Still checking into it. It sounds like the way to go for the best results of your CB. Like stephen I am unsure of what to do. There are a lot of post out there about this. Just when I think I can do it I read something that throws me off. Like are you suppose to use a GC with the PP. If so doesn't that negate the need for the PP. I want to try this in my 30cals so I will be watching these threads closely until I think I have it down how it is done. Good luck stephen I hope all yours and my questions will be answered by the end of this thread.

[docone31]

Eagle, the patch replaces the GC.
For .30s, water dropped wheel weight, size to .308, useing dish soap, rinse the soap off. Cut 1" strips, cut them to 1 3/16" at 45*. Soaking wet, roll them on the casting with a cigarette roller. Twist the tail, let dry. Once dry, a little Auto Wax on the patch, size to .309.
Load them to standard loading dimensions, with the starting load for the powder for the weight of the casting.
Cover the crimp groove with the patch.
Your first few are going to go wild. There is still stuff in the bore. After that, you can dial it in.
Try that technique.
I use a 9mm bullet tray to let my patches dry. I use 180gn castings.
I use Lee Push Thru dies.
Simple, effective.
Try it, you like it.

[Eagle]

Thanks docone31! I think I am going to go ahead and try a few. That is half the fun playing with it until you get it right.

[stephen]

Thanks to all for the helpful advice. I have a few more questions...
Is the consensus to use Lee sizing dies? Or will the a lyman 4500 work for sizing? Can you use any rifle mold or does it work better w/o lube/crimping grooves? How does the exposed paper hold up under field use, do you have to be extra careful w/ them? Will they work in lever or semi rifles?
1874Sharps - You mention cowboys rolling their own. Am I correct in assuming you're talking about muzzle loaders not cartridges? Also is the burnishing effect you mention harder on barrels than jacketed bullets? Lead bullets?
OK I guess I had more than a few more questions.
Thanks

[docone31]

I prefer molds WITH the lube lands. I feel, and my results seem to indicate, the paper has a good grip with firing. The sizer extrudes the wet paper into the left over lube grooves. It is gone on exiting the barrel though.
I found Lee Sizing dies simple, effective, and predictable. I have not tried any other method of sizing.
I have not found the patches to be fragile on handling. They are not as resilient as jacketeds when you drop them, or mishandle them, but with reasonable care, they stand up pretty well.
For in the woods, I smear on extra auto wax. Not enough to wet the patch, just enough to make a skin. I leave the dried wax on the patch.
I only fire them through bolt guns. However, they do, for me, go through my 12rd Enfield magazine. No issues there. A semi rifle, sure. I do not know about semi's.
In my .30s, I tried some from a mold made specifically for patching. Smooth sided. It looked great! My standard Lee molds did better with the same alloy. The patched mold dropped at .304. I wrapped to .309. The group from that was more loose than the lube groove castings.
Now, mind you, my load in my 7.62 is 44.4gns of 4895. I get a clover leaf at 100yds. 37gns, and the group opens up like the casting specifically for patching does.

[BABore]

Since the boolit is being sized down quite a bit compared to the normal routine, I would only do a nose first sizing to prevent boolit bending. Some have reported bending soft 30 cal and smaller, in the base first setups, during normal use.

[6.5 mike]

Like docone31, I use the lee push throughs. The best thing about them is you can taylor a sizer to a spefic barrel if need be. No more then they cost is a big help too. Just remember, if you go this route, measure them first. All of mine showed up small, but are easy to lap out. Lots of info on how to do this here.
My biggest use for pp'ing is for my old, odd bore size guns, but am giving some serious though to building a 7x57 on a 98 action to use pp's in. I know everybody goes big, I'll go the other way & try it. Use a .270 boolit & see what I can get out of it.

[303Guy]

As 'just getting into it' person, I should warn you folks considdering patching, of the pitfalls. It can be addicting!:mrgreen: So many things to try out and so life range trips to try them on. Getting the wrap onto the boolit like you want it, very quickly becomes easy. But the first several attempts require a sense of humour![smilie=1: Then comes perfection and one wants frame the thing - it's a work of art!

The great thing about this forum is we can check our progress by running it past the accomplished experts!:drinks:

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a 1954 Garand. Totally stock. Somebody put new wood on it and it is a really nice looking M-1.

However with condoms, greek surplus, it will shoot 3 inch groups all day at 100, 7inches at 200 and beat you up on the bench.

I tried some cast boolits in it. The Lyman 311284 with a gas check comes out to weigh about 215 gr. With a charge of 4895 it gave me better groups and much less recoil and noise. It got me down to 2 inches at 100 and 4 inches at 200.

A lot cheaper than condoms and fun to make. Then I started reading the paper patching forum. Lurked for a bit and then went out and got a cigarette roller.

I had plenty of computer paper. Bought a cutting board with a rolling cutter and started to play with it. After a few evenings in front of the plasma TV and working during the commercials I came up with a decent patch for this cast boolit.

I sized down the cast boolit in dish detergent and water to .308. The grooves shrank down some but it does not matter. Then I rolled on a patch and let it dry overnight. Next evening I dabbed on a mite of JPW and ran it through a .309 Saeco Lubricizer with the greasing function non operating.

Some I left alone and others I had left on the GC. I segregated those with and w/o the gc's and loaded them all up again using 4895 and once fired greek brass.

Using the Lee expander die I opened the mouth enuf to admit the base of the projectile and gently inserted the boolit into the case over a dab of dacron filler.

I recall the powder charge to be in the neighboorhood of 30 gr and I cannot recall the COL at all. Then I ran all the completed rounds through a Lee Factory CRimp Die. This was adjusted to apply a small crimp on the round as I intend to get as many firings as I can from each case.

My concern was the feeding of the rounds through the standard Garand Clip. It is nothing like gentle and with a loosely crimped boolit I did not want and problems.

The results exceeded my expectations. I am getting MV's in the 1700 area with small SD's and outstanding accuracy. The action cycles well and dumps the empties ahead of the muzzle on the ground. Recoil is very manageable and the muzzle blast is also down.

I will still be working on finding the perfect load for the best accuracy but at least I am hitting the paper and my groups although nothing to brag about are in the less than 3 inch group area at 100 consitently. I have shot 8 shot groups of less than 1 1/2 inches on a good day and my goal it to get it down to less than an inch.

The only problem is getting large rifle primers. I may have to start using some of the thousands I have saved from my .45 ACP's and go to Large Pistol Primers instead. I am down to about 1,200 LRP's and I have just run all my cases through an annealling process to preserve the brass.

The next step is to work on my .303 No4 Longbranch. I plan to size down to .309 and then wrap with paper and size again down to .314. The chamber is .316 ahead of the bullet but eventually goes down to .304 further up the barrel.

I am looking forwards to working with that calibre for a long time.

[6.5 mike]

303 Guy is right. Some of my first wrapped boolits were butt ugly, but that goes away with pratice. If it doesn't look right just take it off & try again. I'm sure all of us have done this at one time or another. Just part of the learning process. And it is addicting for sure.

[pdawg_shooter]

I like to size mine to BORE, not groove diameter,+.001/.0015. I patch with 16# green bar computer paper and lube and size after drying. I size the finished bullet to as large as will fit the throat. At least GROOVE diameter +.001/.002. Dont worry about being too big. If it will chamber it will work. The patch compresses easy to fit the bore. Undersized bullets dont shoot for s***.

[303Guy]

The next step is to work on my .303 No4 Longbranch.I have one too. Is yours a two-groove?

[Crash_Corrigan]

Yup, two groove. Made in 1945.

[303Guy]

Say Crash, I did a wee bit of testing of my two-groove the other day with j-words and patched. If I don't squeeze the stock and time my heartbeats, it seems to shoot those j-words real accurately! Can't say the same for the patched but at closer range they hit point of aim. I am busy lengthening the butt so I don't get smacked on the eye-brow so I can hold it loosely. It is fitted with an invention of mine - a 'quiet muzzle break' - so recoil is no issue. Squeezing the stock made the rifle shoot erratically.

[1874Sharps]

I thought I would post a photo of the custom 30 cal gas check paper patch mold and boolits that it casts. The first is as cast, the second is with gas check and the last is with patch applied and lube. The patch ends just above the gas check and is 10mm wide with two wraps. I have obtained 2500 fps (over chronograph) with it (semi-soft alloy) with 1.5 MOA at 50 yards. It also gives over 60 cal expansion with good penetration and 84% retention of weight. One shooter reported to me he obtained 2650 fps out of his 30-06 Tikka with 2 MOA at 100 yards on his initial load. With paper patch technology great things are possible!

[Beekeeper]

pdawg shooter,
Where are you getting your computer paper?
Around here no one does the readouts anymore so no computer paper.


beekeeper

[MaxJon]

It is simple. Paper patching lets you get jacketed bullet performance form cast, home made bullets. Match the BHN to the velocity and you have the perfect hunting bullet. No leading because the lead never touches the barrel. It is very rewarding to match performance of a high dollar condom bullet with something you made yourself.
Spot on!

[OverMax]

main question I have is WHY? Is it just to reduce leading or are there also accuracy improvements? Is this mainly for older calibers, or applicable to 308 and the like?

1. WHY? Its a tried and true way to better the performance of cast lead shooting. "Far and away harder to be accomplished at than simply G/c'ing a lead boolit.

2. Is it just to reduce leading?__For less hardened lead known to streak and flame cut easily.>absolutely. For all other hardened for purpose lead (rifle & pistol) Yes it ensures such boolit lead will less likely streak a barrel. Better than G/c ing alone.

3. Are there also accuracy improvements?__ Not always. Choice of cartridge_caliber-components use_and patching technique all matter.

4. Is this mainly for older calibers?__ No. But large bore calibers having straight wall cartridge brass have always been a better candidate.

5. Applicable to 308 and the like? Yes. If your willing to be persistent in experimenting. Paper Patching accomplishment. "Its mainly a learn as you do experience." Although there is allot knowledge left by other members who were very accomplished at Paper Patching. "so to speak Techniques and Tips to follow." __Found in the (Stickys above.)

[mongoosesnipe]

my first exposure to paper patching was from reading "point of impact" which was the basis for the movie shooter which also has paper patching as part of the conspiracy to not imprint "new" rifling on the bullet...(total bs as paper patched bullets still get engraved with rifling) it was also used in "quigly down under" then i started casting and wandering down the worm hole bough the paper jacket

i got into paper patching mostly because its neat beyond its ability to allow lead bullets to be fired faster

[prsman23]

Ya"ll know this thread died in 2009 right? :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toallmy]

It's still a interesting topic to us newer members . Sharing your knowledge is appreciated .

[OverMax]

Resurrection is Gr~~eat.
For me. Beats watching day time news re-runs on CNN & Fox.

[big bore 99]

For years I've been paper patching for my 45-70 single shots. Super easy and fast after a little experience. Lee 340 gr sized down to .452 and patched back up to .459 over light loads of Unique. Great accuracy and no leading.

[MaxJon]

It's still a interesting topic to us newer members . Sharing your knowledge is appreciated .

Spot on mate! I will never really consider any threads dead, they are still good reading gor ppl interested in the given topic. So is it really dead??

[MaxJon]

It's still a interesting topic to us newer members . Sharing your knowledge is appreciated .

Spot on mate! I will never really consider any threads dead, they are still good reading gor ppl interested in the given topic. So is it really dead??