black powder in centerfire cartridges

[shdwlkr]

Is there anyplace that lists the charges and calibers this can be used in?
thanks just looking at another way to fire my firearms.
222
257Rob
277
30-30
30-06
375 winchester
45-70
9mm
38 super
38/357 mag
44 special
I know that I can use black in the 45-70 and should be able to find a load for the 375 winchester by way of the 38-55 but the others have me wondering.

[garandsrus]

Shdwlkr,

I don't have experience with BP in most of the above calibers, but the general rule is to fill the case up so there is no air space once the boolit is seated. I would think that the rule still applies to the cartridges above.

Several of the calibers you mentioned were originally BP cartridges, so there may be loading information available for many of them, but I don't know where.

John

[shdwlkr]

john
that is why I am asking questions as I know some here has to have done this and much better to have some idea then to be a fool and do something stupid like putting to little in and messing things up.

[jhrosier]

...
222
257Rob
277


I think that the fouling might render small rifle bores wonderfully innacurate after just a few shots.



30-30
30-06
375 winchester
45-70


This group should work OK.
I have heard that the original load for the .303 British was a compressed load of BP.



9mm
38 super
38/357 mag
44 special..

The 9mm and 38 super will have low velocities like the old rimfire 38 cartridges.
The 38/357 and 44 should shoot like the 36 and 44 cap & ball revolvers.

I tried a case full of BP in the .357 one time. My Ruger Security Six did OK for a dozen or so shots until the fouling bound it up. It took several hours of detail disassembly and cleaning afterwards. I decided than the cleaning was not worth the time it took and never did it again.

I loaded a box of .45ACP with a 230 gr boolit and a compressed charge of fffg once. The gun, a Colt Gold Cup, functioned perfectly and didn't shoot too bad either. I was surprised by the rather snappy recoil. The big old fireball and cloud of smoke rolling downrange turned a few heads.:-D

I don't think that you can get in too much trouble loading modern cartridges with BP, but you might not enjoy the cleanup process. Most modern guns are not as easy to detail strip as their predecessors. Remember that you will also have to thoroughly clean the fired brass.


Jack

[shdwlkr]

jack
thanks for the information I was thinking the small calibers might not work but the 257r can be loaded to the same level as the old 25-20 so I am not sure how it would do. Just might have to jump in and try and see how much of a pain in the rump it is to clean after wards. Only issue is the amount of black powder that would be needed to get a compressed load might have to look at 3F or 4F or even 5F if one could find any.

[August]

Of course, the 38 special and .44 special were originally black powder cartridges.

[jhrosier]

... Only issue is the amount of black powder that would be needed to get a compressed load might have to look at 3F or 4F or even 5F if one could find any.

A compressed load should not be needed in most cases.
Just a case full to the bottom of the boolit should suffice.
4fg should not be used as the burning rate is way too fast.
ffg should give good results in most large rifle cases and fffg in handgun or small rifle cases.

I load Hodgdons triple seven (bp substitute) in the .41 Swiss. To clean the brass, after decapping I wash with Dawn dishwashing soap in hot tap water, then soak the cases in hot water, about 2 qts with a half cup of white vinegar for about an hour, finally rinsing with more hot water 2 times and then air dry overnight.

BTW, you might also need to lube the boolits with a non-petroleum based lube, like Carbauba Red. BP can combine with petroleum based lubes to coat your bore with tar-like residue. If you are just experimenting, you might try dipping the boolits in melted JPW. FWIW, the Triple Seven will work with any type of lube.

Jack

[Don McDowell]

Most of those small bore cartridges it'll be tough finding a bullet that carries enough lube for black.
But make sure there's no airspace between the bullet and powder, and on the bottlenecked cases don't let the base of the bullet go below the case neck, or there'll be little to no chance in accuracy.
3f will likely work fine all across the board, as would 2f.
Bottleneck cartridges often get along better without any powder compression, and oft times even straight cases don't need as much as the internet would have you believe.

[NickSS]

I have loaded black in 38/357, 44 Magm 45 Colt, 22 hornet, 30-06, 30-30 and 303 British. (not to mention 38-55 and 45-70). Fill the case up to allow for at least a little compression when you seat the bullet in all of them. The 30 caliber rifles fouled fairly badly but worked though velocities were lower than smokeless loads. Using jacked bullets actually worked quite well to keep fouling down but with cast bullets accuracy started to go down after only 5 rounds or so. The pistol rounds all worked fine. I would recommend not firing them in a DA revolver as disassemblely is time consuming to clean them but they work fine in my ruger SA as well as my colt peacemakers. The 22 hornet worked surprisingly well with cast bullets. I was getting around 1700 fps with a 55 gr cast bullet with a gas check.

[Hang Fire]

I have about 50 years of playing around with the holy black, for cleaning, just treat long guns like any BP cartridge rifle, cartridge revolvers, like one would any C&B replica.

The way I clean my .44 Pietta 58 Remmie (also with Kirst 45 LC cylinder) is, remove the cylinder, (remove the grips and set aside) put all into a plastic container (5 gallon bucket works fine) with hot soapy water, let set for 10 minutes. Swab out the bore and cylinder chambers, scrub down rest of piece with tooth brush, flush well with more clean hot water and dry. (I use compressed air, then patches) Apply WD-40 to all surfaces (including bore and chambers) and oil all working parts, reassemble, that's it for me, other's mileage may vary, but have never had a problem.

[cajun shooter]

Shdwklr, The 38,357,44spl, 45-70 are ones that I've loaded with no problems. You only need to load the three pistol calibers with FFFg and the 45-70 with 2F. The clean up process can be done very easy or with a lot of steps, your choice. In BP shooting you will find that there is 10 ways to do everything with every one ending up at the same place. Look at them all and pick which one suits you. You do not need a large pot of boiling hot water and you don't have to run to the nearest cleaning station after firing a few rounds. Your gun will not rust and be useless if not cleaned right away. I shot a CAS match on Saturday with 4 guns that are still to be cleaned. This is for the real BP and not the subs as they are very hygroscopic. The myths about BP are why more people don't shoot. A simple spray down with moosemilk and a light oil ( EEZOX) after cleaning is all that is needed. The big thing is using a bullet with the correct lube and with lube grooves to carry it.

[Beekeeper]

What is JPW?

beekeeper

[jhrosier]

What is JPW?

beekeeper

Johnsons Paste Wax

Jack

[runnin lead]

Wasn't the .22 Hornet based off of the old BP round .22 WCF ?
I would think that the small calibers would work fine if you wiped between shots or for shorter strings used a blow tube .

[1874Sharps]

SHDWLKR,

I concur with much of what is written above. You may want to use a drop tube for the cases that are longer than around an inch. It is actually quite amazing how much the powder settles (and therefore the difference in powder column height between charges placed by funnel and those placed by drop tube). An alternative to a drop tube is some vibrating device such as an electric shaver or electric toothbrush held to the side of the case that agitates the powder column and allows it to settle. If this is not done in the longer cases, the powder will tend to settle with handling and carrying (as is done when hunting) and an air gap can form between the bullet and the base of the bullet. Air gaps are not a good thing with the holy black, as it is an explosive and the flame front (and resultant shockwave) propigates differently than smokeless. If there is an air gap the shockwave will hit the base of the bullet and create a momentary high pressure region and can potentially put a ring in the chamber. Of course modern firearms are made to operate at much higher pressures than the original BP arms of yesteryear, so you will always have that going for you. Most of the time a little bit of compression of the powder column will help out accuracy. My 45-70 Sharps likes about an 1/8 inch compression. With SPG lube (this lube is the choice of the champion BPCR shooters and was invented by the legendary Steve Garbe) and Swiss 1 1/2 FG powder I can shoot my Sharps around 15 to 20 rounds without swabbing the bore or blowtubing with no detrimental effects on accuracy. Of course the high humidity of the South Texas Gulf Coast helps in that regard. You may find that you get a bunch of heavy fouling about eight or so inches in front of the chamber with the bottleneck cases. Most of the original BP cartridges had straight walled cases or mild bottlenecks for this very reason. I do not know if you have read any of Paul Matthew's books on the subject of BPCR shooting and reloading, but they are very good and were of immense help to me years back when I was getting started. Hope all this was helpful!

[Wayne Smith]

Lube note - With the Holy Black use no lube containing petroleum products. Check out Emmerts lube.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You might consider getting a Model 94 rifle chambered in .32 Winchester Special. This cartridge was designed for use with both modern smokeless powder and blackpowder.

There is a website for SPG lube, they sell a book on blackpowder cartridge loading. You should check it out. Also check Amazon.com for books by Sam Fadala, he wrote alot of books about blackpowder firearms.

[northmn]

There are a few differenes on modern guns and BP guns. Yes the 303 was originally loaded with BP, but with jacketed bullets and Metford rifling. The later ones had the rifling changed as smokeless burnt out barrels with the old BP rifling. There is some evidence that the 32 Special was originally built with 32-40 rifle barrels as the Winchester company first chambered them. The 32 40 with a 1-16 inch twist with BP held records for accuracy in Schutzen matches but with rifling such as developed by Pope. Modern guns tend to have a much faster twist and shallower grooves which leads to fouling problems. Sometimes you can alleviate this by using a small amount of smokeless as a priming charge. In the 22 Hornet a couple of grains of Red Dot works. BP guns were engineered for cast bullets and BP, modern for smokeless and jacketed. I tried BP in an old Turkish 8mm Mauser with so-so results and went back to smokless.

Northmn

[Sixgun Symphony]

I been told that the cartridges designated "Special" were made for use with both smokeless and blackpowder.

.32 Winchester Special, .38 Special, and .44 Special.

Anyone else heard about this?