A match built lever gun?

[Bret4207]

A recently closed thread got me thinking about a match built lever gun. I know Mic McPhearson did some accurizing work for field use. Does anyone know of anyone who's gone the whole route- blueprinting, match barrel, match chamber, etc?

[felix]

Also, Bret, match bolt lockup. ... felix

[looseprojectile]

A model 88 Winchester is nearly there already. I have had several 88s that were more often than not, tack drivers.
Then I think about the expense of doing the whole enchilada to an already good model 88 and ---------. I think an 88 Winchester is just a bolt gun with a lever. Or a straight pull with a lever.

Life is good

[StarMetal]

One of the best articles on accurizing the lever-action rifles are: Lever Action Rifles by C. H. Helbig and P. B. Cain from the 19th edition of the Gun Digest, 1965. This is a good article with specific recommendations and accuracy results. The Winchester Model 94, 88, Savage model 99 and the Marlin 336 were used for the article.

M. L. McPherson book: Accurizing the Factory Rifle is a good read and will give you many hours of enjoyable reading and dreaming.

Bob Heiderick wrote: How To tune Leveraction Rifles for the June 1977 issue of Shooting Times Magazine and it is worth looking for but not worth the price asked by some used magazine dealers.

If you are working with a Marlin and Microgroove rifling you need Beartooth forum member C. E. Harris article: Marlins Micro Groove Barrels Will Perform from the July 1982 issue of the American Rifleman. This is the most informative of several articles on microgroove rifling and is worth looking for. All articles which followed this one have little that is new or different so this is the article to look for.

A good article with a realistic discussion of accuracy is: The Model 94 and the 30-30 by Sam Fadala for the 40th Edition of the Gun Digest, 1986.

For articles on loading for and shooting the lever-action rifles and the 30-30 cartridge specifically - there are many such articles around - you only really need to hunt up a few.

Dave Scovill wrote: Loading and Shooting Lever-actions, What Makes Them Tick for the October 1998 issue of Handloader and he gives some very good advice.

Wayne Blackwell wrote: Cast Bullet Accuracy With a Bolt Action 30-30 for Handloader October 1976. This article is worth looking for.

Upgrading the 30-30 by Frank Marshal in the 9th Edition of the Handloaders Digest, 1982, is worth looking for also.

H.V. Stent wrote: The Winchester Model 94 for the 34th Edition of the Gun Digest, 1980 and it has a good bit of information on loading accurate cartridges for the lever-action rifles.

Ron Carmichal wrote: Cast Bullets at Full Speed for the August 1995 issue of Handloader magazine and this is probably one of the best articles written about wringing the best performance from the 30-30 cartridge using cast bullets in a lever-action rifle.

R. H. Vandenberg Jr. wrote: Heavy bullets in the 30-30 Winchester for the 18th Edition of the Handloaders Digest. This is a pretty good article with information on using the 180-grain Speer Grand Slam bullet in the 30-30.
__________________
Joe

[looseprojectile]

Also, a friend in Idaho has been a Model 88 nut for several decades. He has told me that their are gunsmiths that have accurized stock model 88s by moving the stock screw back towards the action and bedding and such.
Not exactly a full blown bench gun. They easily get into the half inch group realm.

Life is good

[StarMetal]

I won't speak for Bret, but I'll take a gander he really means the more traditional style of lever actions such as the Win 94 and Marlin 336. The Win 88 is an entirely different lever gun. I'd also bet my Krag Bret knows the Win 88 is accurate. Actually it's a bolt rifle operated with a lever, kind of the same as the Browing BLR. One of the things that is claimed to hurt the accuracy of lever actions is the rear lock. As you can imagine that applies to the tradition ones that I mentioned. To go way off topic by a long stretch you could consider a Ruger No 1 a lever action rifle.

Joe

[felix]

Drop actions on heavy duty frames are excellent bolt-action emulators, especially the one made by Allan Hall. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Joes on the right track. The Savage 99 is basically a falling block repeater. I have several of the books and articles he mentioned too. What I'm wondering is if anyone ever went whole hog and really tried making a bench gun out of a lever rig. The trigger would be the most limited part I think. I'd like to see one in a known accurate caliber like one of the PPC's amd see what it could do.

[Doc Highwall]

I think we have all seen some lever action rifles shoot some very small groups even with rear lock up. Then take the Remington 788 with it's nine rear locking lugs and how accurate they are. I like Mic McPherson idea of the stock bolt with the bedding of the forend for Marlin's.

[StarMetal]

Joes on the right track. The Savage 99 is basically a falling block repeater. I have several of the books and articles he mentioned too. What I'm wondering is if anyone ever went whole hog and really tried making a bench gun out of a lever rig. The trigger would be the most limited part I think. I'd like to see one in a known accurate caliber like one of the PPC's amd see what it could do.


Bret remember the post I made where Layne Simpson asked Marlin to send him a 336 in 30-30 and put a barrel on it without turning it down, which meant no magazine tube or forearm. He shot 1/2 groups with it at 100 yards repeatably. Now I wonder, say they were to make a fat barrel like that, real fat or even a slab fat barrel that incorporates the magazine tube drilled through the bottom portion of it. I know that would be heavy, maybe skeletonizing the bottom portion of that slab barrel. We'd be talking then. There is no doubt they can be made to shoot, but costs more and don't know if there is enough demand for it. How about this, the slab barrel and receiver are one part!!

Joe

[stocker]

I took a real beater (Indian owned previously) Savage 99 carbine that dated to 1907. I restocked it, drawfiled and polished all the pits out of the exterior action and finally had a Douglas air guaged 26" , .750 muzzle diameter installed chambered in 30WCF. Had the whole thing bead blasted and blued. Lyman 17 on the front , Lyman micrometer on the receiver. Home trigger job. It was not unusual to shoot the occasional 3/4" bench group with it but most hung around 1" and were likely really the limits of my eye sight at that time. It really loved the RCBS 180 FN cast boolit (actually about 197 grains) pushed to 1900. I put it together with turkey shoots in mind and it was a steady winner for that purpose. Have since given it to my son as my eyes just don't handle iron any more. Nothing was done to ensure squareness of breech face and my gut feel is they made them pretty much right in 1907.

[StarMetal]

How about this idea. I call it the Dan Wesson Marlin 336. Take a slab sided shroud, bored through for both magazine and barrel. The a quality barrel is afixed just Dan Wesson did on his revolvers...screw into the receiver (and in this case with headspace gauge) and locker her down with the barrel nut. You know those Dan Wesson revolvers shoot mighty good and I believe the reason is the barrel is tensioned between the shroud. I also feel it's the barrel nut that makes Savages pretty darn accurate. Anyways back to my imaginary rifle. I could be a swap caliber too.

Joe

[Bent Ramrod]

In his first book, "Leverguns, An American Legacy," Paco Kelly had a chapter on applying accuracy techniques to the tube-fed lever actions. These included the examination and recrowning of the barrel, relieving barrel bands and freefloating forends, and replacement of the mag tube dovetail block and screw with tool steel parts which allow the mag tube to be slightly loose as the barrel expands with heat. He put a polyethylene washer on the screw to dampen vibration, and filed a groove in the bottom inside of the forend and in the breech end of the barrel so a piece of steel rod would be clamped between forend and the thickest part of the barrel, keeping the rest of the wood from touching the rest of the barrel. He claimed he could get MOA accuracy from the usual Winchesters and Marlins by these methods.

[Bret4207]

Well, I wish I could afford the cost. I'd blueprint the action, square everything up, install a premium barrel and get the stock as secure as I could. The mag tube I would design a hanger for and consider a BOSS type system to counteract any problems from the mag tube. I don't know if it would hep, but it's a thought. I would also like to try it with a Savage 99.

My aim would be to compare it side by side with an AR platform and see just how much influence the action alone has on the accuracy. It's fine for everyone to speculate that the AR is heads above a lever, but knowing for sure would be interesting.

[StarMetal]

Well, I wish I could afford the cost. I'd blueprint the action, square everything up, install a premium barrel and get the stock as secure as I could. The mag tube I would design a hanger for and consider a BOSS type system to counteract any problems from the mag tube. I don't know if it would hep, but it's a thought. I would also like to try it with a Savage 99.

My aim would be to compare it side by side with an AR platform and see just how much influence the action alone has on the accuracy. It's fine for everyone to speculate that the AR is heads above a lever, but knowing for sure would be interesting.

Bret, there's another AR type rifle to deal with. They are the special built ones that are exactly like the gas operated except they have been modified to a bolt action. Competition on.

I don't know if it's possible for a so modified lever action to match or beat an AR. Then throw in the HK's. Lord have I seen some of those things shoot. All these rifles I speak are capable of one hole groups and some might small ones. This is not to discourage you, I'd like to see you work on one and post, with success, the positive fruits it bear.

Joe

[MtGun44]

Two good things for AR accy. One is the six lug lockup is consistent due to amazingly
tight tolerances being held on the chamber, barrel extension (where the bolt lugs seat) and
the bolt itself. I have so far not found a case where a random bolt put into any rifle will
cause the 'no go' gage to be accepted.
The second is that the barrel only has the little thin gas tube on it, no big honking piston
or gas cyl and heavy oprod flapping on, around and against the barrel.

It does not take a specially built match AR to shoot well. It is an unusual AR that will not
shoot 1" at 100 with a scope, good ammo and good man behind the trigger. This includes
bits and pieces assembled by myself, just screwing various barrels into various uppers and
grabbing any handy bolt, checking that it will not accept the no-go gage and trying it. Almost
always at or under 1" with good quality handloaded ammo - good boolit, same headstamp brass
and appropriate powder/charge. I used to be VERY uninterested in the AR platform, thinking
it was a short range spray and pray device for the military to use in the jungle. Borrowing
a friend's Colt HBAR surprised me to no end. I eventually bought it from him and competed
very successfully in NRA Highpower with a box stock rifle, other than match sights which
are mostly just finer click sized compared to the std ones - a finer front sight, tho. I used
to have no interest, now that I know that they are almost always very accurate they have
suddenly become interesting. The old quote "only accurate rifles are interesting" comes
to mind.

Bill

[Doc Highwall]

Part of the M-16/AR15 accuracy comes from the 360 deg case head support from the locking lugs and that the bolt locks into the barrel and not the receiver. On a two lug bolt like a Remington or Winchester when the bolt is in the locked position with large case heads like a 308 Win .473 dia, there is greater support at 12 and 6 o'clock then their is at 9 and 3 o'clock allowing the action to flex more then when the same gun is fired with a case head the size of a 223 rem. A good book on this is, Benchrest Actions and Triggers. In it the author gives the details of stress annalist. I think the lever actions like the Browning with their rotary bolt with multable lugs are one of the best ways to go.

[Bret4207]

I'm not claiming any lever gun can match an AR. I just would be interested in knowing how much worse it would be. I have never personally seen ANY AR that would hold anything close to 1" at 100. Even the new ones all the kiddies at work had were shooting 2" plus from the targets I saw, but they aren't riflemen either. If Bill says they can then I believe it and that means they do a whole lot better than I previously thought. The question is- given the same care and quality of components, just how much worse would a levergun platform be? It's just a question, not something I have the money, much less the time to do.

[looseprojectile]

I have a Model 71, 348 Winchester that is awesomely accurate. The one with the rear peep sight mounted in the top of the bolt. About a 1953 vintage. Half magazine.
It is the one that will shoot the tops out of trees offhand.
Understand here, that when you don't have open country, where you can shoot at rocks and such you have lots of very large trees, lots of one inch or less tree tops. Average about a couple of hundred feet up.
Not something I would do unless you know nobody is within several miles behind the tree. I don't remember ever missing a tree top though I must have.
This is with factory loads, 200 grain. The recoil gets a little tiring, but a man must live up to the legend of the levergun.
At some point I will buy a mould for this gun and shoot some groups on paper, if I live long enough. Not one of my top priority things to do.
I have not shot this rifle in about twenty years so maybe I can't do that any more.
But the model 71 is a big strong action and would be a good place to start, to try to get the utmost accuracy from a traditional levergun. Maybe I can size the 190 grain Ranch Dog boolit down to .350 :coffee:

Life is good

[StarMetal]

Bret,

There's a fellow over on the Accurate forum by the name of 308 Sako that has a factory Colt HBAR that shoots very well. He changed out the trigger to match Jewell and put a free float tube on it. Here's a group he shot at 405 yards with two witnesses.

Joe

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/DSCN0040.jpg

[looseprojectile]

Any line on the load he was using? Always looking for that great load for the AR.

Life is good

[StarMetal]

Any line on the load he was using? Always looking for that great load for the AR.

Life is good

First the barrel has a 9 twist and the bullet was a 75 grain Hornady AMAX. He didn't list the powder type or weight, but there's not many and you know the weights are going to fall in the mid 20 bracket.

Joe

[MtGun44]

Bret,

I would think that the biggest problem for great accy on leverguns is the variable tuning
on the bbl with barrel bands and tube mags. Another likely issue is with a pistol cal carbine
you can have 10 rds hanging under the bbl for the first shot and none on the last. Venturino
reports that Win rifles (with the handguard hung from a dovetail) almost always shoot better
than otherwise identical carbines (with the handguard held on by a bbl band).

I see no particular reason why the action of most lever guns would be a problem, altho maybe
the action flexing affects the bbl vibrations. The AR bolt locks directly into the bbl extension,
a short piece screwed permanently to the back of the bbl, so basically the aluminum upper
does nothing of note during the firing until the bolt and carrier start moving back. Couple
this with the typically fairly stiff bbls on many and the fact that the gas tube is pretty flexible,
so doesn't affect the bbl vibrations much and you seem to have a bbl that his usually able
to vibrate as it pleases, which seems to do good things for accy. Of course, I also have a
"pencil bbl" AR carbine that shoots very well, too.

If I wanted a super accurate lever gun (and my two Marlins already will shoot 1.5" or better
at 100 with good ammo) I'd worry about bbl vibration issues more than anything. I haven't
thought about it enough to know what to try, but heck - my Marlins have barrel bands and
still shoot fine. My Winnies are much more problematic, frankly.

Seems like they made W92s in various varmint calibers years ago. Anybody out there have
experience with a levergun .218 Bee or similar? Seems like the bbl would be pretty stiff due to small
hole.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Bill,

You're pretty keen on AR's. The gas piston ones affect accuracy for the one reason you mentioned the gas tube don't and it's the weigh of the whole thing especially the operating rod. In addition upon firing the piston and rod push between the where the rod contacts the carrier and housing of the the gas piston with more force then you would imagine. The gas impingement system doesn't have that push. Another thing the gas impingement system does that the gas piston system doesn't (and this is over looked by many AR "experts") is push the bolt forward for a micro fraction of a second. Let me explain. The gas enters the carrier via the key and the tail of the bolt is the piston, the carrier the cylinder. Upon first arriving there the gas is pushing between the bolt and carrier. That means, although the bolt can't go forward anymore, it takes some of the friction of unlocking the bolt when the carrier finally starts moving rearward. There is more then meets the eyes on the AR system. Other gas impingement systems don't ease the friction on the bolt. There is lots more to then just putting a barrel into the upper receiver and tightening the barrel nut to proper specs. For example the Alexander Arms barrel extensions are LocTited to the receiver. Any slop there shows up in accuracy. We have a fellow on the Grendel forum going to advance building secrets of match AR's and he's going to tell us about it. Can't wait. Just when you think you begin to understand the AR's more then others you learn something else.

I think my slab sided Marlin barrle/magazine would eliminate the number of cartridges affecting the barrel harmonics.

Bret, about squaring the face of the receiver on a lever action. Think to having a mandrel in the bolt or thread portion and square it from that rather then trying to chuck the receiver up in a lathe or milling machine. I think you should go for your idea of improving the accuracy of a lever action. Probably a good place to start would be a heavier profile quality barrel. I'm sure the barrel could be made a little thicker. Might go to a half magazine too instead if the long tube type.

Bill,

I've had some 92's that shot exceptional and I currently have a Winnie 94 Trapper in 45 Colt that shoots better then it should.

Joe

[shdwlkr]

Brett
I have a custom made bb bore in .375 that shoots as good as I can hold on the target so I don't thing what your thinking is out of the realm of possibility. As to AR's I have seen some that shoot real good even in my old hands but I still hate them from when I had then in the early 70's.
by the way my custom bb has a 26 inch octagon barrel and full tube on it and very nice wood and was put together for me by one of the best gunsmiths I have ever found. to bad I lost him a few years ago to cancer.

[roadie]

I have no doubt a levergun can shoot as well as a AR, Iv'e had a few that showed excellent accuracy. I still have a 94 in 30-30 that will hold an inch at 100 yards when I could see decent. A 92 in 25-20 cuts one hole at 50, never tried it further.
Iv'e never tried an AR, have'nt had the need or the desire to own one, probably never will, but with the front lockup, it has the edge on the levers as a stock rifle.

If I were to build a match levergun, I think I would start with a Savage 99, do away with the magazine issue. Lap the bolt in, true up the receiver face and make sure the front of the bolt was snug in the receiver when she locks up. Then fit the butt stock to take the recoil the same with every shot, the forearm might need a different method of attachment, maybe a stiff tube and secured from the front end?

You should be able to do the same with a 94 as to the tube, maybe thread the receiver for it or just silver solder it in solid, then hang the forearm off it with a front end screw and let the barrel float. Thats assuming a half length tube, a full length tube is gonna need a barrel attachment.
It's definitely doable.

roadie

[looseprojectile]

The Browning model 65 I had about ten years ago was one of those guns that I never did figure out a good load for. For starters you had to use flat point bullets.
I also experienced case splitting with what should have been normal loads. I believe they weren't made to shoot. Sure are pretty though.
I was able to trade it to a collector before I put too much wear on it.
Even a very accurate rifle doesn't do well with the factory barrel sights for me.
I still have a bunch of brass for the .218 bee and maybe I will get a rifle for it someday.
The most accurate 92 I ever had was a 32 20 converted to .357 mag. Was a 24 inch octagon barrel in near new condition when desicrated. Wish I still had it.

Life is good

[HollowPoint]

This is an interesting topic. I've always been interested in getting the most accuracy possible out of any rifle I've owned; regardless of wether it was a bolt, lever or semiauto.

Since I consider myself lucky just to have scrounge up the money it took to buy any of the few rifles I presently own, (just 5 of them) paying even more money to have them accurized by a good gunsmith was just about out of the question for me.

The next best thing for a chronically cheap do-it-yourselfer like myself is to do it myself. I'll admit I am very limited in my abilities as a home gunsmith but, I have been able to wring out more accuracy out of my rifles than they had out of the box.

I'm releatively certain that any of you guys can and have done some of the same things I've done to try to boost the accuracy of your guns; with a fair amount of success.

I've only recently acquired a Puma Model 92 that I too have dreamed of getting "Match Grade" accuracy out of but, What exactly do you consider to be "Match Grade?"
Is it just accuracy? Is it the smooth function of the action? Is it the trigger pull? Is it the feel of the gun when you bring it to your shoulder?

To me, "Match Grade" means repeatable accuracy; and that in larger part for me stems directly from a good trigger pull.

I ordered a DVD from a fellow named Steve Young who is touted as being a Rossi/Puma Model 92 expert. After viewing it I procceded to do all of the modification described in the DVD.
I have yet to shoot it since I just finished the work a couple of hours ago but, there has been a absolute improvement in the smoothness of the action, the way it feed and ejects and especially the trigger pull.

Now, wether this qualifies as "Match Grade" I don't really know. I do know that I would prefer to own a rifle that I can shoot well regardless of wether it's designated as "Match Grade." As apposed to a specially built "Match Grade" Lever Gun (or whatever type of gun) that I can't shoot well.

Haven't any of you guys ever shot a gun that you knew was capable of super accuracy but, for some reason you weren't able to shoot decent groups with it? I know I have.

The term "Match Grade" seems to conjure up images of something better than I already have. I think that's what attracted me to this post. "A Match Grade Lever Gun"

I'd love to see a Lever Gun shoot equal to or better than an AR. That would be a sweet thing to behold.
Accuracy potential against accuracy potential of each of these different types of guns in a "Match Grade" set up would be interesting.
The guns themselves though just seems like comparing apples to oranges.

HollowPoint

[StarMetal]

I think I understand what Bret was talking about. He as probably talking of run of the mill AR15's, probably the A1's, maybe some A2's. He wasn't specific if the few people that shot them did so off a bench or very informal. Now if he saw someone that had a tuned AR I think he's be impressed.

For the rest of you there's never going to be a standard lever action, by that I mean a 336 Marlin or any of the 92's, 94's, 95's or ever the 1886's and it's variations out shoot a top of the line match AR. I think it would take mucho amounts of dollars to even get close.

Why do you think the Mini 14's got such a bad rap? Because all the AR's out shot them easily. It's only now that Ruger has tried to do something about that such as a heavier barrel. Many years ago my best friend, who loves the M14 and hates the M16, and I made a bet. I told him I'd bet even with $2000 into an Mini 14 (at that time which was back about the time the Colt HBAR came out) that my HBAR would still beat it. He wouldn't take the bet. Now he had a HK 93 that I wouldn't bet against. My other good friend has an early HK 91 with the polygonal bore and boy does that thing shoot. I've seen it shoot German surplus military ammo once and it popped my eyes open.

I like them all. I have a pre 64 Model 94 Winchester built the same year as my birthday and it's in 32 Special that I cherish. I also love my AR's. I'm a gun junkie..probably like the most of you.

Joe

[mike in co]

if you want to run a match lever against an ar, it should be a match ar.
your target moa for your lever guns needs to be SUB .2 MOA....or you lose before you got started.
remember i shoot benchrest matches with ar's . i won a club huntermatch with an ar10. i have not won against a 6ppc (YET) but have finished 6th...ahead of the also rans.

my small group in my ar10 308 br is 0.116
my small group in my ar15 223 br is 0.19x
my small group with my bone stock ar10(t) is .338

i like leverguns. am quite happy wiht my 44mag for 50yd shooting.
i have a 308 which i have not shot. i would love to shoot moa or less with it.
so let's continue with this thread.
but bret...i'll be surprised if you can beat an purpose built ar with a purpose built lever gun.


mike in co

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (sort of Aussie NRA) have a lever action shooting match which is very popular here. They have a standard class and an open class. A lot of guys make some pretty accurate match rifles for it. My mate shot his silver medal (5 shots less than 1" 100Yards with a stock 336 30/30 with careful handloads.

I reckon you could make an accurate rifle out of a Browning or Sako lever, but it is sort of defeating the purpose of the lever rifle's advantages in the firsy place.

[JFE]

There was a company in the UK that was accurizing BLR's, making larger capacity magazines but this was sometime ago. Cant recall who they were or whether they are still in business. The Brits started messing with leveractions when they lost their semi-autos.

Joe

[45r]

Most custom barrel GG Marlin 45-70's can shoot MOA or better,even the XLR 45-70's can shoot 2 inch groups at 200 yards with gummy J-boolits.

[MtGun44]

Starmetal's comment about the Mini14 is right on. I have one that typically shoots about
3" at 100. I kinda put it away years ago, just hanging around. Anybody have good info
on what might be done simply to improve the accy? I have heard of sending them off for
bull bbls and special gas blocks. Is there any simple fix to make it better or is the problem
just a crappy bbl?

By comparison, I have several ARs that can regularly shoot under 1" for 5 shots at 100
with good ammo. Not so for my Mini. My Marlin GG .45-70 or my Marlin 336 .30-30 will
shoot rings around the Mini, like 1.5" at 100 or maybe a hair better with good ammo.

Bill

[Jon K]

MtGun44,

You might try measuring your magazine, find the max length it will hold and load to the max length -.010"-.020" for clearance. If it won't feed & function.. shorten til it does.........you'll find the groups will shrink, the shorter the jump. Make sure you crimp firm enough, so the oal will stay long as possible.

Good Luck,
Jon

[StrawHat]

I would also like to try it with a Savage 99.

I would imagine a very accurate rifle could also be built using the Winchester 1895 as the foundation. I have often considered trying to do so but...

[Bret4207]

I was talking building a lever to the same level as the high dollar match AR's. Not a match lever to an M16A1 or anything. It's more a question of building the lever with the same care and component level as with the lever. The AR's have what? 40 some years of tinkering to get them to shoot like they do now. I wonder what the levers could do with similar work is all.

[StarMetal]

I was talking building a lever to the same level as the high dollar match AR's. Not a match lever to an M16A1 or anything. It's more a question of building the lever with the same care and component level as with the lever. The AR's have what? 40 some years of tinkering to get them to shoot like they do now. I wonder what the levers could do with similar work is all.

Bret,

Actaully no on the 40 years tinkering. The military branches actually started fooling with them right away. Free float tubes and flat top receivers are nothing new in that sense. They even milled the carry handles away for top notch receiver sights and messing with match loads began right away. The system is inherently accurate from the get go. Don't forget this isn't a wood stocked rifle and all the whistles and bells for bedding just never applied. It's always been barrel, trigger, sights on this rifle for improvement. The first M16's had pretty wimpy barrels and heavier barrel was on of the first improvements.

Look how long the AK47 has been around. Everyone that loves them will tell you they're not accurate because they have deliberate sloppy tolerances. That's true, but yet they did and didn't make accuracy improvements. By that I mean they made some heavy barreled ones and the Soviet Dragunov, even though in 7.62x54R was an attempt at a sniper rifle (good rifle actually) but we're not taking about the same level of hole driving as even the AR15's or or M14's. By the way I've seen slow motion film of the AK47 firing full auto and my God, best way to explain it is it looks like a bicycle wobbling with loose wheel spokes, no wheel bearings, and a loose frame. When the bolt came back it wobbles really bad and the cleaning rod was flexing so bad under the barrel I thought it was going to fall off. Great reliable rifle, but the accuracy just isn't there.

Joe

[mike in co]

I was talking building a lever to the same level as the high dollar match AR's. Not a match lever to an M16A1 or anything. It's more a question of building the lever with the same care and component level as with the lever. The AR's have what? 40 some years of tinkering to get them to shoot like they do now. I wonder what the levers could do with similar work is all.


bret,
and the levers have had over 100 yrs of tinkering and they are not there...does that maybe imply something about the platform ?
like it was all tried, and there are limits.
we should all go read the artiles listed above, but i dont have them. yes we have better machining available today, but will it over come the basic design of the lever gun ?
look at these numbers:
250 for a bbl blank
200 chambered
250 for upper and lower
100 for trigger
100 for carrier assy
40 for freefloat tube
50 for stock
30 for pins and springs
125 for mount and rings
300 for scope
that is $1445 for an ar heavy varmit 223 that shoots sub .2 5 shot groups.( these were the costs when i built the rifle, cannot use todays obamba inflated prices)

the only costs not listed is the reamers which are spread out over multiple guns, not my labor to assemble. ( one of the nice things about an ar!)

mike in co

[frank505]

both of my 30/30 Winchesters will shoot a Saeco #307, 32 grains of 4895, Winchester case and primer very close to an inch at one hundred. What does it matter? These are hunting guns with hunting loads that are easy to handle and shoot in the field from field positions.
I suppose if you want, rebarrel a 94 with a fat barrel and no mag tube and no dovetails, with tight lockup. It should shoot very well and be as handy as the typical "sporting" rifle of the 2000's. oh, it will also outpower the AR by a lot in 30/30 or go to a 71 and stomp all over the AR 10's. All my lever guns will outshoot me and you. Maybe I will shoot as good someday as the 70 year gentleman who won our leg match Sunday in some really twitchy winds, his second ten at 600 was a 100-7X. Yup, he was shooting an AR 15. I am in awe and very humble.

[StarMetal]

both of my 30/30 Winchesters will shoot a Saeco #307, 32 grains of 4895, Winchester case and primer very close to an inch at one hundred. What does it matter? These are hunting guns with hunting loads that are easy to handle and shoot in the field from field positions.
I suppose if you want, rebarrel a 94 with a fat barrel and no mag tube and no dovetails, with tight lockup. It should shoot very well and be as handy as the typical "sporting" rifle of the 2000's. oh, it will also outpower the AR by a lot in 30/30 or go to a 71 and stomp all over the AR 10's. All my lever guns will outshoot me and you. Maybe I will shoot as good someday as the 70 year gentleman who won our leg match Sunday in some really twitchy winds, his second ten at 600 was a 100-7X. Yup, he was shooting an AR 15. I am in awe and very humble.

No it won't out power an AR, esp the AR10's. I believe the 50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM, maybe the 450 Bushmaster will out power it. Remington has the 30 RAR on an AR15 that's pretty potent too. Those are just the beginning for AR. In fact the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 about equal it in energy. Maybe you need to take a study of the AR field before coming to your conclusion. Not being smart, lots of things have changed with them. You are correct in comparing the 30-30 with the 223.

Joe

[shdwlkr]

Personally I won't have an AR in the house but a M14 or a clone there of just might. I am not saying that things haven't change with the AR over the last 4 decades. I just don't like them never have never will. I don't see the need for one in my firearms collection. Heck I don't even like the .223 caliber as I am happy with my .222 it does what i want it to and if I need more power I will step up to a 225 winchester or a 22-250.
I do still think you could make a good lever action rifle that might give the AR a run but with all the different calibers available I am not sure. Besides if you want something that is really accurate go get a Barrett 50 bmg where you have a 1 1/2 mile range and then look at your AR, it is just another rifle. I have seen the 50 bmg keep the round at a mile inside of bulls eye.

[mike in co]

Personally I won't have an AR in the house but a M14 or a clone there of just might. I am not saying that things haven't change with the AR over the last 4 decades. I just don't like them never have never will. I don't see the need for one in my firearms collection. Heck I don't even like the .223 caliber as I am happy with my .222 it does what i want it to and if I need more power I will step up to a 225 winchester or a 22-250.
I do still think you could make a good lever action rifle that might give the AR a run but with all the different calibers available I am not sure. Besides if you want something that is really accurate go get a Barrett 50 bmg where you have a 1 1/2 mile range and then look at your AR, it is just another rifle. I have seen the 50 bmg keep the round at a mile inside of bulls eye.

lol and how big was the bullseye ???
duh...lets keep to the task...a match lever gun.

[mike in co]

first: select the lever action that seems to have the most square, strong lockup.

two: get a nice krieger 1/17, 1/18 bbl lite or hvy varmit will do 21 in or so.

three: a match short 30-30 reamer. your gonna face/square the case head, line bore and neck turn, uniform the primer pocket, uniform the the primer hole, deburr the hole from the inside after trim to lenght, weight sort the cases.( there is a gentleman in tx that has built a bolt gun on the 30-30 case that is competitive in br.)

four:shorten the mag tube to a single round or the length of the free float tube(see below).

five: detach and or shorten the mag tube. use the free float tube to hold the mag tube.

six: build a free float tube adapter. must sit low on the top of the recvr so it can accomodate the mag tube. ideally the adapter would be a solid fit to the recvr...threaded/welded....in our first rifle a tight fit. glued and screwed to the rcvr.

seven:bed the stock to the recvr.

eight:a nice br quality scope.

nine: a trigger job somewhere close to 4 OUNCES or less

OK this is a proposal.
when done it will look like a hybred of an ar and a lever gun.

comment/suggestions/cash or commponent donations ???

mike in co
( an alternative to the 30 30 is 308 win br or a short variation of 308.)

[StarMetal]

Personally I won't have an AR in the house but a M14 or a clone there of just might. I am not saying that things haven't change with the AR over the last 4 decades. I just don't like them never have never will. I don't see the need for one in my firearms collection. Heck I don't even like the .223 caliber as I am happy with my .222 it does what i want it to and if I need more power I will step up to a 225 winchester or a 22-250.
I do still think you could make a good lever action rifle that might give the AR a run but with all the different calibers available I am not sure. Besides if you want something that is really accurate go get a Barrett 50 bmg where you have a 1 1/2 mile range and then look at your AR, it is just another rifle. I have seen the 50 bmg keep the round at a mile inside of bulls eye.

Ask and thou shall receiver. Here are some links to 50 BMG uppers for your AR15 small pin lowers:
http://www.50bmg.net/
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/08/tactilite-50-bmg-ar-15-conversion-kit/

That AR is so versatile. Did you know that DPMS made/makes an AR15 that is a pump action? Others may have made them also. So we have AR's full auto, AR's semi auto, AR's that are bolt operated, and AR's that are pumps.

Joe

[Bret4207]

You guys are missing the point and arguing when something was done or how much something will cost. Not the point at all. It's just a question- what would be the result if someone really played with a lever gun for accuracys sake? Yeah, like Mike said, the lever has been tinkered with for 100 years, and for 100 years all anyone cared about was minute of deer at what ever range we were shooting. And lets face it- Mikes $1500.00 probably WILL out shoot a lever, but we don't KNOW by how much, and thats my question.

So lets not worry about if it's been 40 years or 50 years (I'm still stuck at about 1991, sorry) or whether the trigger or mag tube will give us problems. It's just me wondering is anyone ever really went whole hog and tried. And it looks like the answer is no.

[btroj]

We may never know Bret. Until someone with the money and know how tries, we may not find out the real answer.

The AR's and boltguns have 1 big advantage. A ready market of poeple who demand extreme accuracy from them. Leverguns are not asked to shoot 1/2 inch groups or better at 100 yards very often.

Who knows, maybe if the benchrest crowd decides to have a lever class we may see the true potential.

Til this level of accuracy is demanded by a willing and paying crowd- levers will stay where they are. Money is king. Find a niche with money and you will find out. Just not with my money.

Brad

[Bass Ackward]

I had to take the time to understand the question which I am still not sure that I do. I take it that you are not considering the 88 Win and 99 Savage here and are basically asking about tube fed models. Would that be correct?

I have seen that done. Barrel diameter is increased after the tube is removed and the space filled with wooden stock. The gun is converted to single shot and starts to look futuristic like some of the Custom shop S&Ws from the last decade as the barrel steel extends beyond the limits of the action itself on the sides and top especially.

In fact, I remember back that someone did this in a gun mag of the 60s where the gun was even set into a one piece wooden stock set up around the action. It had to use a barrel mounted scope like the old Lyman cause the action was top eject.

Looked huge. My guess is that with the fact that it hasn't caught on, it wasn't immensely successful or it would have been copied.

Levers are re-barreled everyday with octagon barrels that are heavier and more rigid. The problem really is defining "match". Hard to imagine something that hasn't been done by somebody in years past.

[45 2.1]

You guys are missing the point and arguing when something was done or how much something will cost. Not the point at all. It's just a question- what would be the result if someone really played with a lever gun for accuracys sake?

Bret-
That has been done by at least two people on this forum. To date, no one has believed those two people. The results are far past what people here believe can be done, after all, if they can't do it, no one else can either. You have to put the time in (something the large majority here won't even think about) to find out how, not read about it and assemble what someone wrote about.

[Bret4207]

Bob, could you point me in the direction of those folks?

Mike- I missed the 3rd page when I posted last night. You've got most of it covered. But I wouldn't go with the 30-30. I'd go with the 6PPC or something along those lines, a known BR accurate cartridge.

BA- I'd be inclined to try the 99 since it's at least as "traditional" as any other levergun and the mag tube wouldn't be an issue. I've seen 99's done with bull barrels in 219 Wasp. The one I remember shot consistently under an inch with the bullets of the day and a 6x scope. But I wasn't thinking of a true Bull Barrel, unless the AR's are using them. Now gwtting something to shoot in the .3's or .2's or under?......I've never seen more than 2 -3 guys that had guns that would do that everyday to start with. But like I said, I'm stuck in the late 80's early 90's as far as bench guns go.

[felix]

No, Bret, the PPC case size is too finicky to get BR groups in 243 caliber. The powder speed required is extremely narrow for this cartridge. We need to pick another for this experiment. Perhaps a 7BR, or 7PPC? ... felix

[frank505]

To Starmetal;
My 450 Alaskan will shoot a 405 grain gas check at 2100 fps and from sitting they will about touch each other. My 416/348 IMP will do the same but with a 350 RCBS gas check. It will also do that with a 400 grain bullet but recoil is a bit too much in a 6.9 pound rifle. Whatever cartridge the AR is cabable of shooting cannot come close to either one of those. We could also discuss the 500 grain bullets in the 450 AK although I dont mess with them much as the 405's wont stay in anything I've shot yet.
Dont wanna get in a p#%$@^% match over whats bigger but case capacity will win every time.

[9.3X62AL]

I think Bret touched on the answer to his own question in his last post. It kinda boils down to the question "Where's the vigor in THAT?" when it comes to building a match-grade lever rifle, esp. from one of the tube-fed platforms. For deer hunting, a 30-30 WCF that does 3" groups at 100 yards will be adequate for any shot taken within the rifle's practical range limits, that being 150-175 yards. Same goes for a Marlin 95 or Win 86 in 45-70 or the Win 71 in 348 on larger game--3" at 100 isn't great, but it is enough. If better ranging is required--with the attendant need for refined accuracy--hunters choose bolt rifles, long ranging calibers, and scope sights.

In short, no condition really drove the development of fine accuracy in leverguns as it has the refinements seen in bolt rifles and self-loaders. Leverguns were largely ignored or passed over, because other platform types were cheaper/easier to refine and/or some venue prompted the research & development of those refinements.

I still adore my leverguns, with all of their disadvantages and low-tech speedbumps. Most of the reason I crave ownership of an AR-15 is to piss off the CA hoplophobes--I have a pretty decent Mini-14 already that WILL OUTSHOOT MY 30-30 WCF AT 100 YARDS. Handily. Neither will be leaving, I should add.

[StarMetal]

No, Bret, the PPC case size is too finicky to get BR groups in 243 caliber. The powder speed required is extremely narrow for this cartridge. We need to pick another for this experiment. Perhaps a 7BR, or 7PPC? ... felix

Who says? Have you seen this page?


http://www.6mmbr.com/6PPC.html

The 6.5 Grendel Forum is full of people that shoot all types of competition including benchrest. The Grendel was initially started by competition shooter Arne Brennan. I believe Robert Whitney is on that link I gave you. At any rate the competition shooters say the AR would be better for competition in 6mm then the Grendel.

Joe

[StarMetal]

To Starmetal;
My 450 Alaskan will shoot a 405 grain gas check at 2100 fps and from sitting they will about touch each other. My 416/348 IMP will do the same but with a 350 RCBS gas check. It will also do that with a 400 grain bullet but recoil is a bit too much in a 6.9 pound rifle. Whatever cartridge the AR is cabable of shooting cannot come close to either one of those. We could also discuss the 500 grain bullets in the 450 AK although I dont mess with them much as the 405's wont stay in anything I've shot yet.
Dont wanna get in a p#%$@^% match over whats bigger but case capacity will win every time.

No match here Frank, just a friendly post with good information. Frank the 50 Beowulf will do 1800 to 2000 fps with jacketed bullet running from 325 grains to 400 grains. How close do we have to get? That's from a case that's not much bigger then the 500 S&W cartridge and fired out of a short barreled AR. I'm not even going to discuss the groups. Again I suggest you study up on these new AR's even if you don't like them. Remember we must protect all guns from the gun grabbers....not just the one's we personally like.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I think Bret touched on the answer to his own question in his last post. It kinda boils down to the question "Where's the vigor in THAT?" when it comes to building a match-grade lever rifle, esp. from one of the tube-fed platforms. For deer hunting, a 30-30 WCF that does 3" groups at 100 yards will be adequate for any shot taken within the rifle's practical range limits, that being 150-175 yards. Same goes for a Marlin 95 or Win 86 in 45-70 or the Win 71 in 348 on larger game--3" at 100 isn't great, but it is enough. If better ranging is required--with the attendant need for refined accuracy--hunters choose bolt rifles, long ranging calibers, and scope sights.

In short, no condition really drove the development of fine accuracy in leverguns as it has the refinements seen in bolt rifles and self-loaders. Leverguns were largely ignored or passed over, because other platform types were cheaper/easier to refine and/or some venue prompted the research & development of those refinements.

I still adore my leverguns, with all of their disadvantages and low-tech speedbumps. Most of the reason I crave ownership of an AR-15 is to piss off the CA hoplophobes--I have a pretty decent Mini-14 already that WILL OUTSHOOT MY 30-30 WCF AT 100 YARDS. Handily. Neither will be leaving, I should add.

Al,

One thing I'll say about the lever actions that beat the daylights out of the AR's are their handling. By that I mean, for example, how you can snap them to the shoulder very quickly and pick off a running deer. We all know the AR's have such a buttstock configuration that doesn't place your head well in relation to the sight especially scopes. Another think too that I think hinders that quick snap shooting is the pistol grip. While on that the grip isn't exactly right for everyone in it's length to trigger reach. To me, and I love them, it's an awkward rifle, even shooting off the bench.

I will always love the graceful lines of the 92 and 94 Winchesters.

Joe

[mike in co]

To Starmetal;
My 450 Alaskan will shoot a 405 grain gas check at 2100 fps and from sitting they will about touch each other. My 416/348 IMP will do the same but with a 350 RCBS gas check. It will also do that with a 400 grain bullet but recoil is a bit too much in a 6.9 pound rifle. Whatever cartridge the AR is cabable of shooting cannot come close to either one of those. We could also discuss the 500 grain bullets in the 450 AK although I dont mess with them much as the 405's wont stay in anything I've shot yet.
Dont wanna get in a p#%$@^% match over whats bigger but case capacity will win every time.

frank,
not wanting a peeing contest either...but how big is your 5 shot group ??? 2 dont count....having said all of that...i can put 5 shots INSIDE one of your bullet holes...so no your lever will not out shoot an (my) ar. ("about touching" is about 1/2 moa.....where are the other three shots?)

a "stock" armalite ar15 in cmp/dcm configuration will shoot 3/4 moa or better.

these are not the m16's that were shot in 'nam.

and this disscussion was about ACCURACY....not who has the biggest.....

mike in co

[Bass Ackward]

BA- I'd be inclined to try the 99 since it's at least as "traditional" as any other levergun and the mag tube wouldn't be an issue. I've seen 99's done with bull barrels in 219 Wasp. The one I remember shot consistently under an inch with the bullets of the day and a 6x scope. But I wasn't thinking of a true Bull Barrel, unless the AR's are using them. Now gwtting something to shoot in the .3's or .2's or under?......I've never seen more than 2 -3 guys that had guns that would do that everyday to start with. But like I said, I'm stuck in the late 80's early 90's as far as bench guns go.


Bret,

I am still not sure what you are after. I don't see what an AR has to do with building a competition level lever? But be that as it may, you can re-barrel a 99 or an 88 which I personally prefer to perform way beyond what most would believe. Sub MOA is an easy goal. Too easy.

Accuracy really is up that pipe. And some pipes shoot well at a lower velocity range and some oscillate better at a higher frequency or velocity level. So what you really fight is getting a barrel matched to the cartridge that you want to shoot and perform in the sweet spot for that cartridge. If you can do that, and not have the forearm ruin that pattern either with weighted contact or shifting contact in a bag, then the gun (not necessarily you) can shoot well. Platforms that can meet this criteria and then set off a primer have "match" potential. So action type is less of a concern.

That's why I would go with an 88 in a lever if it were me. That one piece stock allows for either free floating or bedding if you get a barrel that is out of range and needs to tune the vibration pattern.

If you are only after a sub MOA outfit, then you can do that with a moderate weight barrel of good quality. If you want sub MOA accuracy level with 10 rapid shots, then you need more metal. But remember, you get that in smaller bore diameters anyway.

If you are serious, take a look here: These guys have the tightest tolerances in the industry bar none. And it is delivered, not just wished. We have installed 17 to date and none was over 1/2" with factory ammo with the first three shots. (none on levers though.)(wished I could have had one in 35 from these guys)

http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/

[mike in co]

what lever are we gonna pick ???

which one will hold up ?

7br is listed as 59kpsi
220 russian as 55kpsi
6ppc listed as 58kpsi( and its bs as most are shooting in excess of 62kpsi)
30-30 is 42kpsi
308 is 60kpsi?7.62 nato is 55kpsi

bret..the 30-30 can be competitve ...it is used in score where the size of the hole counts.

45...point us to the stories on levers shooting well...i missed them too.

mike in co

[mike in co]

MtGun44,

You might try measuring your magazine, find the max length it will hold and load to the max length -.010"-.020" for clearance. If it won't feed & function.. shorten til it does.........you'll find the groups will shrink, the shorter the jump. Make sure you crimp firm enough, so the oal will stay long as possible.

Good Luck,
Jon

i was gonna let this pass, since this is about lever accuracy, not ar accuracy...but just could not do it.
do not crimp target ammo in an ar!.....why would you deform a perfectly good bullet and expect it to still shoot well ?
the correct way( in my opinion) is to establish the correct neck tennsion to keep the bullet from moving...
i do this with all my ar ammo ......... i crimp nothing in an ar.

my bullets do not move( till the primer goes off...lol)

a std fl die will normaly sufice, but i use bushing dies.

mike in co

[45 2.1]

45...point us to the stories on levers shooting well...i missed them too. mike in co

This has been posted here before. It is not a fluke either. Can anyone here match it?

[Bret4207]

Bret,

I am still not sure what you are after. I don't see what an AR has to do with building a competition level lever? ]

The original post that got me thinking was something about the AR being mechanically more accurate than a lever. I'm not sure I buy that idea, but I'm not into the AR's to start with. I'm just wondering what a lever can be capable of using top end components and practices.

[Bret4207]

what lever are we gonna pick ???

which one will hold up ?

7br is listed as 59kpsi
220 russian as 55kpsi
6ppc listed as 58kpsi( and its bs as most are shooting in excess of 62kpsi)
30-30 is 42kpsi
308 is 60kpsi?7.62 nato is 55kpsi

bret..the 30-30 can be competitve ...it is used in score where the size of the hole counts.

45...point us to the stories on levers shooting well...i missed them too.

mike in co

Mike I don't think we have to run them flat out to get good grouping do we? Is there a 30 cal AR round that's competitive? If so them something like the 30 American (30WCF using a SR primer) might work. As long as we could use a match grade bullet that would help.

As far as 45's cryptic answers about who has done this, he tells me it's people who hate me so that's a big list. And, that's all he'll tell me except that they learned from him. I was hoping for straight out answers too. All I was after was some posts to look at, not an argument or large scale battle.

[mike in co]

This has been posted here before. It is not a fluke either. Can anyone here match it?

when there are five shots in the group, i'll listen. its very nice, and i'll agree in a hunting situation three is plenty...but we are talking accuracy, from a bench....and the standard there is 5 and 10 shot groups.

small group for my ar10 is 0.116

bret,
you wil find benchrest accuracy DOES come at the top end and above of the pressure limits.
there are seveeral windows/nodes....most shoot at one of the top two nodes.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

This has been posted here before. It is not a fluke either. Can anyone here match it?

I spit my coffee all over my keyboard when I see you posted a picture along with your post!!!!! :kidding:


That's some sweet shooting.

Joe

[StarMetal]

when there are five shots in the group, i'll listen. its very nice, and i'll agree in a hunting situation three is plenty...but we are talking accuracy, from a bench....and the standard there is 5 and 10 shot groups.

small group for my ar10 is 0.116

bret,
you wil find benchrest accuracy DOES come at the top end and above of the pressure limits.
there are seveeral windows/nodes....most shoot at one of the top two nodes.

mike in co

Little truth in that Mike, but...if if he can do that over and over, as they say consistently, then what difference does it make it's a three shot group? I sense a little jealousy there, I know I am. Believe me, 45 can do it too.

Let me tell you fellows a little bit about 45. At first I hated him on the forum and even "went" after him. I found out quickly he knows his poop. We became very good friends. One thing I've learned in my later years is that I "don't" know it all. Once I accepted that I begin to learn more. I learned lots from 45.

Joe

[looseprojectile]

I have experienced several rifles that would shoot better the more I tipped the can. This is probably because in the case of the .357 it is hard to exceed the rotational speed of cast boolits with the slower twist of these types of guns. The .357 is the one I have done the most shooting with. I have often terrorized my shooting partners with the loads I shot with the converted 92s and the Ruger single actions. I have not a shred of documentation for this claim, though I think I can proove it. At this point in life I mostly enjoy doing what I know works.
I also enjoy the spirited intercourse involving my favorite subject, guns and shooting, here on Cast Boolits.
Keep it up, I am still learning.

Life is good

[mike in co]

joe/45 2.1,
i did not dissagree with what he did, i did not say he could not do it with five. what i said is the standard in benchrest shooting is 5 and 10 shot groups. so post some five shot groups....or conversely i'll post some three shot groups...and you will still not beat me( i hope).

i am impressed with the group. lets hear some spec's on the rifle.

mike in co

(ps if those are one inch squares, i get 0.184 for group size, what is the boolit sized to, how big is the bore ? i am working off a print and adjusting proportions)

[Bass Ackward]

One thing I've learned in my later years is that I "don't" know it all.
Joe


OK, That's IT !!!

Who is this masquerading as Joe StarMetal? :grin:

[45 2.1]

joe/45 2.1, i did not dissagree with what he did, i did not say he could not do it with five. what i said is the standard in benchrest shooting is 5 and 10 shot groups.Mike, you wouldn't believe me if I told you what my best 10 shot 100 yd. group was with a 45-70. so post some five shot groups..last 257 yd. group I shot with a 45-70 was 3/4" for 5 shots, thats a little under 0.3 MOA, there were several more just like it to go with that one.... and the gun had aperture sights on it, not a scope. or conversely i'll post some three shot groups...and you will still not beat me( i hope). Post them, if they're from a large caliber levergun.................

i am impressed with the group. lets hear some spec's on the rifle.
A stock factory Marlin from the mid 70's. It's what you put in them and the nut behind the butt that do that.

mike in co

[45 2.1]

As far as 45's cryptic answers about who has done this, he tells me it's people who hate me so that's a big list. You are correct....finally. And, that's all he'll tell me except that they learned from him. I was hoping for straight out answers too. When you understand that you, or anybody else for that matter, are not going to get it the way you want it, then you will probably understand that you need to follow directions. A few people did understand the directions and they learned quite a bit.

[StarMetal]

OK, That's IT !!!

Who is this masquerading as Joe StarMetal? :grin:

Hey Bass....that's hilarious!! It's me alright. With age comes wisdom...so they say.

Joe

[Bret4207]

As far as 45's cryptic answers about who has done this, he tells me it's people who hate me so that's a big list. You are correct....finally. You have your own "fan club" too Bob!And, that's all he'll tell me except that they learned from him. I was hoping for straight out answers too. When you understand that you, or anybody else for that matter, are not going to get it the way you want it, then you will probably understand that you need to follow directions. A few people did understand the directions and they learned quite a bit.

Bob, with all due respect, I think you do this to get your own jollies and for no other reason. I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge to pass on, you just want to be treated like royalty and have your nether regions kissed in order for someone to get it. What would it hurt to just give a straight answer? You say we're not capable of understanding any of what you know, that we're just too dense. Well, start posting some witnessed results from matches that show you can do it and maybe some folks will be willing to meet your terms.

I have no doubt you can do a lot of what you claim, I just can't fathom why you'd hang out here (with the unwashed) if we're all so freakin' DUMB!:confused:

[StarMetal]

Bob, with all due respect, I think you do this to get your own jollies and for no other reason. I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge to pass on, you just want to be treated like royalty and have your nether regions kissed in order for someone to get it. What would it hurt to just give a straight answer? You say we're not capable of understanding any of what you know, that we're just too dense. Well, start posting some witnessed results from matches that show you can do it and maybe some folks will be willing to meet your terms.

I have no doubt you can do a lot of what you claim, I just can't fathom why you'd hang out here (with the unwashed) if we're all so freakin' DUMB!:confused:

I won't answer for Bob, but I'll probably be pretty correct in the why. He likes to teach people things, as do I. I found out many years ago I love teaching people things no matter what it is..as long as I have the knowledge to pass it on. Bob taught me a lot of things on cast bullets. I'm sure he picked up a few things from me. You wouldn't believe how generous he is.

Joe

[mike in co]

its not about how good the lever shoots...IF IT AINT OUT SHOOTING THE AR.

yes great work with a lever, and with peeps....

remember the question was can one get a lever to out shoot an ar...match built in each case.


i'm not questioning the results ......its great....but you have not out shoot a match ar.

having said all that,i think bret would be quite happy with the results.......

can it be applied to other calibers ??

thanks
mike

[Bret4207]

I won't answer for Bob, but I'll probably be pretty correct in the why. He likes to teach people things, as do I. I found out many years ago I love teaching people things no matter what it is..as long as I have the knowledge to pass it on. Bob taught me a lot of things on cast bullets. I'm sure he picked up a few things from me. You wouldn't believe how generous he is.

Joe

Joe, there are lots of people here willing to learn, but it has to start somewhere. There are very, very few people here completely unwilling to pass along any information without "conditions". It baffles me why someone would be like that. And in truth, it's insulting to hear repeatedly that "most of the people here aren't smart enough to understand". I realize I'm a mouth breathing neanderthal, but there are others here that are pretty sharp.

[Bret4207]

its not about how good the lever shoots...IF IT AINT OUT SHOOTING THE AR.

yes great work with a lever, and with peeps....

remember the question was can one get a lever to out shoot an ar...match built in each case.


i'm not questioning the results ......its great....but you have not out shoot a match ar.

having said all that,i think bret would be quite happy with the results.......

can it be applied to other calibers ??

thanks
mike

No Mike, that's NOT the question. The question is "what happens if you build a lever to match specs and how does it shoot". This is in response to a statement that the AR is mechanically more accurate than any levergun. If we can get a lever to shoot consistently in the 3's that's great. If we can shrink it further that's wonderful. If we could get a repeater levergun to shoot in the .1's......well that would bring us into a whole new appreciation of the lever, would it not? And if someone were to try and fail despite best practices, then we'd know there is a mechanical limitation. That's the question.

[felix]

In general, Bret, the more individual parts in a gun, the more random is the variation/vibration during firing. ... felix

[StarMetal]

No Mike, that's NOT the question. The question is "what happens if you build a lever to match specs and how does it shoot". This is in response to a statement that the AR is mechanically more accurate than any levergun. If we can get a lever to shoot consistently in the 3's that's great. If we can shrink it further that's wonderful. If we could get a repeater levergun to shoot in the .1's......well that would bring us into a whole new appreciation of the lever, would it not? And if someone were to try and fail despite best practices, then we'd know there is a mechanical limitation. That's the question.

Bret,

Long time ago I use to have one of the Browning lever action in 22 rimfire. I had a scope on it and hunted lots of groundhogs with it. You know what? That little carbine shot pretty darn good. I don't remember the groups, but can tell you it would have made no difference if I was using a run of the mill for back then bolt 22. So what were we dealing with on that rifle...thicker barrel in relation to the bore size? Less vibrations due to the small caliber?

Joe

[Bret4207]

Joe, I'm told with the 22RF there are different forces in play than with the hotter/larger rounds. This was from a nationally ranked shooter, or so I was advised. My opinion was that the basics remain the same- a good barrel, proper bedding/chambering/finishing remained the same. I was told things like firing pin strike and (as you mentioned) barrel harmonics make all the difference. I don't know if he was right or not, but it's something to think about.

[StarMetal]

Joe, I'm told with the 22RF there are different forces in play than with the hotter/larger rounds. This was from a nationally ranked shooter, or so I was advised. My opinion was that the basics remain the same- a good barrel, proper bedding/chambering/finishing remained the same. I was told things like firing pin strike and (as you mentioned) barrel harmonics make all the difference. I don't know if he was right or not, but it's something to think about.

Sounds like he might be Bret. We certainly aren't dealing with the magnitude of explosion and vibrations with the 22. Most my lever actions were never scoped so I never really thought about getting bolt gun accuracy from them. Now I've spoken about an early 92 Rossi I had in 357 that I put a receiver sight on being very accurate and it was. I'm not sure a bolt 357 (if there was/is one) would out shoot it by much if at all. While still living in Pa my best friend use to just laugh himself to death I was hunting groundhogs with my Model 94 Winnie Trapper in 45 Colt. He even laughed more that I was using a RCBS 255 grain SWC bullet. He asked if I was shooting them up close. I said well no, unless the chuck presented a close shot. I shot some over 200 yards or more with that rifle. In a way it was more fun then a highly accurate scoped long distance bolt rifle. I have a receiver sight on that Winnie too.

Joe

[softpoint]

I have both AR rifles and 8 or so Marlin Lever guns. 3 in 45/70.I have gotten tight clover leaf groups out of all three 45/70's, but shooting 20 rounds at 100 meters,which is my standard for average accuracy testing, either 4,5shot groups averaged, or 5, 4 shot groups, they mostly come up at around 2" at that distance. I have recently played with a new 30/30 XLR. This rifle was not particularly accurate when I got it, I was surprised, I had figured it would be as good an example of a levergun as you could get. I started tinkering with it, I shortened the barrel to 20" and recrowned. Helped a little. I relieved the magazine tube at the rear a tiny bit, so it wouldn't bind when the rifle was fired. I put a rubber washer under the magazine attaching screw . These mods appeared to help very little. On some rifles it can help a good deal, but it didn't change this one much. I then pulled the fore end off again, scraped it out some inthe barrel channel, and glass bedded it to both the receiver and the forend cap. pulled the forend off, cleaned up the release agent and re-installed, bedding the forend to the barrel with silicone rubber. This helped a lot! I think this rifle will come very close to averaging an inch at 100 meters now for 20 shots with the rcbs 180 and 28.5 gr of H414. I haven't shot any 20 shot sessions with it yet, but I'm going to, hopefully this coming week. I believe it will do as well as a lot of my bolt guns. And that's taking into account that several of my bolt guns have been bedded and have had trigger work. The Marlin has a 2.5x scope and a wild west trigger, along with a slightly lighter mainspring. :grin:

[357Mag]

Brett -

Please check your PM's.

Regards,
.357Mag