twist rate in a 45 colt

[frank505]

Have been trying a 1/32 twist 45 Colt barrel from Green Mountain on my Ruger veteran. Made it 5.5 inches to replace a Douglas(?) that has been on there for twenty years.
Some interesting observations after several hundred rounds. No leading, zero,none in the forcing cone and first inch of barrel. That is a first with this sixgun. Of course my load is a 310 Keith, 21.2 WC 820, Fed 155 and Starline brass. Long range accuracy is better than ever with the 310 K and a 360 K. Long range I mean 614 yards. Accuracy at 100 yards sighting in was scary, egg sized rocks just disappeared over the front sight from sitting, resting against my Jeep tire.
I need some ice to shoot into, will have to wait till winter. Maybe try some water jugs, I'll will bet there is no slippage on the front band. The bullets recovered from sand at 100 yards are pretty beat up and expanded(acww). JO over in North Dakota is trying a 24 inch twist on his 45 and getting groups at 25 and 50 yards that cannot be equalled.

[frank505]

tried some 310's at Eagle Pass yesterday afternoon. Anyone remember Eagle Pass from John Linebaugh's first couple of seminars? We went over southeast so shortened the distance to the pond from a mile to a 1000 or so yards. Pretty easy to keep them on an alligator(he he ) in the pond if the wind didnt blow me off. Friend of mine was shooting a 5.5 inch Italian 45 and 11 of HS 6 and a 250 Keith along side. Much more wind sensitive and he had to hold a ways up on the barrel to get em in the pond. Always wanted to put a military rifle rear sight on my 45, kinda like a High Power tangent rear sight. Sure would be fun at long range.

[Lloyd Smale]

sounds like fun pal. Wish i could be there to play!

[frank505]

i would supply the ammo if you showed up.

[dpaqu]

What are the common twist rates for 45 colt? I know magnum research uses a 1/16 for the 454.

[44man]

Have been trying a 1/32 twist 45 Colt barrel from Green Mountain on my Ruger veteran. Made it 5.5 inches to replace a Douglas(?) that has been on there for twenty years.
Some interesting observations after several hundred rounds. No leading, zero,none in the forcing cone and first inch of barrel. That is a first with this sixgun. Of course my load is a 310 Keith, 21.2 WC 820, Fed 155 and Starline brass. Long range accuracy is better than ever with the 310 K and a 360 K. Long range I mean 614 yards. Accuracy at 100 yards sighting in was scary, egg sized rocks just disappeared over the front sight from sitting, resting against my Jeep tire.
I need some ice to shoot into, will have to wait till winter. Maybe try some water jugs, I'll will bet there is no slippage on the front band. The bullets recovered from sand at 100 yards are pretty beat up and expanded(acww). JO over in North Dakota is trying a 24 inch twist on his 45 and getting groups at 25 and 50 yards that cannot be equalled.
How about some group pictures?

[felix]

That's not fair, 44man! You need to shoot the gun where you are comfortable so a valid comparison can be made. We all know by now your capabilities in shooting revolters. I would suggest Frank to send you the gun in his "off" season. ... felix

[44man]

That's not fair, 44man! You need to shoot the gun where you are comfortable so a valid comparison can be made. We all know by now your capabilities in shooting revolters. I would suggest Frank to send you the gun in his "off" season. ... felix
It IS fair, It interests me how he does it. But I sure would like to test it. Lacking that he should show us.

[frank505]

my next step for this gun is some load development to see what is does at close range(which to me does not matter). and I aint sending my 45 veteran anywhere to anybody. The results at close range, 25 yards, I will try to post some pics of groups. It may happen next week, seems that I will have some time to do some shooting and loading. Maybe I can get some video of golf balls at one hundred yards too.
If the gun will hit a golf ball at about one hundred yards pretty much all the time, what does it matter the group size at 25 yards?
It is an interesting experiement in twist rate and is proving Jeffs and my theories that most twist rates are too fast for lead bullets.
My old friend, Ernie told me stories of Ft Sill OK during the Korean war as he was stationed on the atomic cannon ans spent most fo his time there shooting rifles. There was a 1 in 12 twist 1903 that he said outshot everything on the base to a thousand yards, hmmmmmm.

[felix]

It is not theory. You want minimum twist to do the job in your ambient with the projectile you are using. ... felix

[frank505]

I have heard some talk of the 458 and the reason it has ridiculous 1 in 14 or 12 twist is for bullet stabilization in game(?) I would like to hear some facts regarding this. The only experience I have is shooting the NEI bullet that looks like the Lyman 462560 but weighs about 700 grains cast from tire weights. we shot it some into Texas Hill Country dirt, which is just decomposed granite and some Wyoming desert sand. It seems that the bullet makes cavity about the size of your fist and there is nothing in the hole. We are guessing the bullet is coming back out of there!!!! and going somewhere.
The 45 Colt 310 Keith is making straight holes into damp sand as far as I can dig with my hand. Gotta bring a shovel next time. And they will penetrate both shoulders of a bull picket pin.

[Bass Ackward]

I have heard some talk of the 458 and the reason it has ridiculous 1 in 14 or 12 twist is for bullet stabilization in game(?) I would like to hear some facts regarding this.


Let me see, you are questioning accepted twist rates and you are looking for shooting "facts"? :grin:

Just because the 244 Remington was changed from a 12 twist to a 10 twist doesn't mean that all 12 twist guns failed to stabilize 100+ grain bullets. It just means that statistically, more people were able to do it with a minimum of load development effort. The public greeted this change in a positive light, so a name change was required to support the new standard.

As to the 458; most situations involve one of a kind impact scenarios that are as unique as their launch situations. You can develop tests and accumulate statistics to support one view or another, but in the face of any mountain of data, don't make the mistake in equating them to "facts".

With that last statement in mind, as a seller of product, right or wrong, statistics are required to establish perception. Then perception drives public expectations, interest, and sales for meeting those expectations. That is, until perception changes as new statistics or test perameters come to light.

[9.3X62AL]

What are the common twist rates for 45 colt? I know magnum research uses a 1/16 for the 454.

IIRC, Colt uses 1-16"--S&W uses 1-18-3/4--Ruger uses 1-20".

[StarMetal]

IIRC, Colt uses 1-16"--S&W uses 1-18-3/4--Ruger uses 1-20".

Ruger must have changed from the early days. My old #9 Speer manual has twist rates for common calibers and it lists Colt and Ruger at 16. Lists the TC Contender at 22.

Joe

[Lloyd Smale]

I know frank personaly and if i can say one thing about him its that his word is gold. Theres not one iota of bs in him. If he says it you can take it to the bank.
It IS fair, It interests me how he does it. But I sure would like to test it. Lacking that he should show us.

[44man]

I know frank personaly and if i can say one thing about him its that his word is gold. Theres not one iota of bs in him. If he says it you can take it to the bank.
I understand and I said nothing wrong about Frank. He has tweaked interest is all in how he gets stability.
The Ruger's are still one in 16" so how doubling the slowness works baffles me. Mostly after working with the Marlin .44 with a 1 in 38" twist. I am going to trade it off for a 45-70 GG.
Bass, my brother in law has an original .244 and it is amazing for varmints to 600 yards with lighter bullets.
I bought a Sako .243 heavy barrel varmint rifle long ago and wanted to use lighter bullets. After 200 different loads and bullets I finally got it to group. The problem was it was so slow and dropped so fast I needed a different scope setting for every range.
100 gr bullets shot super. Trouble was, a chuck would make it in his hole before dying.
My whole life has been spent trying to get wrong twist rates to perform where they don't work. Same as the 22-250 with heavy bullets.
I just do not like spending a pile of money and years to get something to shoot so it is not as simple as saying a twist CAN be made to shoot with any bullet.
Funny how my 1919 Swede will pack all bullets from 100 to 140 gr into 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 100 with it's super fast twist???? Ask me if I want a 1 in 14" twist! :killingpc

[frank505]

lets see. the 458 which is a marvelous cartridge when hand loaded, became a complete goat f@#% when factory loaded by some idiots that had no idea what they were doing.
The 454 Freedom guns have 1/24 twist which is why Jeff and I started this project. The Ruger 45's are 1/16 with thin rifling. A Ruger 44 has about perfect rifling for lead bullets although I do not know the twist.
44 man;
doubling the twist rate was a reach but it seems to be working just fine so far. It is an experiement in twist rate, I am certainly not saying everyone go and change barrels. I am amazed the 360 grain Keith stays stable at least to 600 yards,

[9.3X62AL]

I stand corrected on the Ruger twist rate--I have sources that say both 1-20" and 1-16". I dragged out the BisHawk just barely right now, and under the influence of a snug patch on a bore jag--it looks like 1-16" to me.

"Measure once, cut twice. Measure twice, cut once."

[44man]

The Ruger .44 is 1 in 20".
One reason it baffles me is my BFR 45-70 is 1 in 14" and shoots about anything I feed it. I once had 4 shots in 2-1/2" at 500 yards. No, I can't see good enough to do it all the time and holding 26 feet up at a tree branch is not easy. But the gun is so easy to work with, 15 minutes on the range will give me a load for a new boolit. Anything from 300 to 420 gr so far, I have no need for a heavier boolit.
My .475 is the same with a 1 in 15" twist. It shoots anything from 400 to 460 gr. Again, no need to go heavier.
The easy path to accuracy is astounding and I kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yards. I PO'd a lot of rifle shooters that day! :Fire: Many came to see what I was shooting but a bunch of them left! :mrgreen:
I just find slow twists so hard to work with.
And then, the lowly Ruger SBH shot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards with my 330 gr boolit. But it likes the 265 RD boolit better giving me a 1/4" group at 50, averages 3/4". I have yet to shoot it at 200.
The SRH was even better with an average 1/2" at 50 and I was hitting pop cans at 200.
I am old and lazy and want instant results! [smilie=1: The worse my vision gets, the harder it is.

[44man]

lets see. the 458 which is a marvelous cartridge when hand loaded, became a complete goat f@#% when factory loaded by some idiots that had no idea what they were doing.
The 454 Freedom guns have 1/24 twist which is why Jeff and I started this project. The Ruger 45's are 1/16 with thin rifling. A Ruger 44 has about perfect rifling for lead bullets although I do not know the twist.
44 man;
doubling the twist rate was a reach but it seems to be working just fine so far. It is an experiement in twist rate, I am certainly not saying everyone go and change barrels. I am amazed the 360 grain Keith stays stable at least to 600 yards,
The Freedom and the Ruger .454's have 1 in 24" but we have never reached the extreme accuracy desired with heavy boolits. We did with light bullets. I have never shot the BFR .454 yet but it has a 1 in 20" twist. It should be gold with heavy boolits.

[frank505]

I gotta cast some 45- 335 keiths and try them real soon in the 32 twist and send some to jeff to try in the 24 twist. looking at recovered bullets from faster twist barrels, the deformation is makes us wonder how we get any accuracy at all.(acww).
we have a buffalo hunter that shoots a 400 grain plus bullet in his 45 Colt, in two buffalo he has not had an exit. we have shot lots of buffalo with the 45 and a 310 keith with lots of exits. i know three shots dont prove much. The gun is Ruger hunter with new five shot cylinder. Have shot some buffalo with 500 L and 450 K with exits as with the 475 and 405 K. I do not know what twist is in either the 475 or500. will check.

[Frank]

44man says
How about some group pictures?

I agree. Anything else is just beer vapor. :mrgreen:

[bobke]

frank505-
what model ruger in 45 colt you talking about with 5 shot cylinder. super redhawk? hadn't heard anything about it. advise. thx.

[frank505]

The customers gun is a 5 shot recylindered Ruger Hunter by John Linebaugh. The bullet he used was 460 grain and AA 5744. Three shots on a buffalo heifer about 900 pounds or so with one exit. This past year he used a 500 plus grain bullet froma 500 maximum with no exit. That shot was at 20 yards and broadside. I dont remember what he hit (except for the buffalo). His loads are under 1100 fps in both cases.
I am working on ammunition for a target test this week, may even have time to change barrels and go back to the original custom that has seen some rounds. Wife is going in for knee operation Monday, we shall see what the rest of the week is like.

[frank505]

It has been interesting. The 16 twist barrel has been replaced with the 32 twist after a good bit of shooting. I have given up on trying to shoot from a bench with a sixgun. It really bothers my neck, so it's back to sitting against the jeep tire and resting over my knees.
Trying my best to get close to a golf ball at my 100 yard sand berm was frustrating, with the 16 twist, could not get close with any load I tried. Replaced barrel with the 32 twist, last Saturday, after working till 2, I had an hour and half to get some shootin done. The 32 twist is pretty accurate, hit two golf balls at 100 and hit close enough move the other three once I got her sighted in. Did'nt have enough time to dig any bullets out of the sand but they will be pretty beat up and it is difficult to tell much from them. I also shot a real nice group on a big rock at about 60 yards, kinda hard to mail that one, the rock is the size of my jeep. Almost all the shootin has been done with a 310 grain Keith bullet, I found some of the Freedom Arms Lyman bullet mold 300 grain gas check lfn. (wish I could remember the mold #). That will be the next golf ball shoot. I invite any and all to come and participate, it is just a little bit of fun. Better hurry it was 39 degrees this morning and fresh snow on the high peaks. I can feel my neck starting to swell and soon it will be the glorious hunting season and no more time for much else.

[44man]

Frank, tell me how to get the Marlin 1 in 38" to shoot and I will come and kiss you! :mrgreen:

[Catshooter]

Frank, tell me how to get the Marlin 1 in 38" to shoot and I will come and kiss you! :mrgreen:

That is no way to get the correct answer!


Cat

[Dale53]

Frank, tell me how to get the Marlin 1 in 38" to shoot and I will come and kiss you! :mrgreen:

44man;
It is quite simple. Lift up the front sight hood, and...

run a Marlin 1895 under that front sight hood!!:drinks:

I have an early Marlin (modern) 1895 45/70 (with "standard" Ballard rifling) that shoots quite well with the Lee 340 gr bullet and an appropriate charge of RL-7 (not hotrodded but about 1400 fps). This with a two power scope (designed for deer hunting at rational ranges).

Just a thought...:kidding:

Dale53

[44man]

44man;
It is quite simple. Lift up the front sight hood, and...

run a Marlin 1895 under that front sight hood!!:drinks:

I have an early Marlin (modern) 1895 45/70 (with "standard" Ballard rifling) that shoots quite well with the Lee 340 gr bullet and an appropriate charge of RL-7 (not hotrodded but about 1400 fps). This with a two power scope (designed for deer hunting at rational ranges).

Just a thought...:kidding:

Dale53
I want the 45-70 stainless GG but need to sell this .44 first. I was shell shocked with the price, even through my friend I am looking at $613.
I went to Gunbroker and they are asking from $425 to $950 for the .44! What in the world happened?

[frank505]

i guess i really dont want a kiss, but 32 to 38 twist is maybe where it falls apart. dont know for sure. anybody got a takeoff barrel in 38 twist????????my 45 japchester is a 20 twist and a little finicky until i shot the rcbs 300 grain gas check rifle bullet sized to .453. really shoots well now. the lyman freedom mold # is 454629 maybe for sure. gonna shoot some today on the way back from the chiro, i hope.

[Dale53]

44man;
Gun prices have, at least temporarily, gone through the roof! I have a patented solution for the problem - I just don't buy when the prices are inflated. Of course, there is a down side. I am 74 and don't even buy "green bananas", so I have to weigh (do I or don't I). So far, I haven't weakened...

The two Ruger Revolvers that I bought recently have been genuine values (50th Anniversary .44 mag Flattop and the Ruger .44 Lipsey Special) and nice pieces in their own right.

Good luck: when you DO get your 45/70 I believe that you will be MORE than happy with it.

Dale53