Powder choice?

[lreed]

Hello: What would be the first choices of powders to try in 8mm & 30-06 using 215ish paper-patched bullets? Accuracy is a must,velocity is a desire,and my goal is 500 yd target. Could be a tall order,but thought maybe here is the place to ask. Thanks lreed

[docone31]

I really like 4895. I get surplus powder. If I do not have that, I use 4064. The surplus 4895 seems to be close to 4064 anyway.
With all my .30cal loads, it performs above expectations.

[pdawg_shooter]

I would use 4350 in the 8mm and 4831 in the 06. Best accuracy with a 100% load density.

[bcp477]

I don't mean to throw cold water on your plans/ desires, but......500 yard target shooting and cast bullets likely will NOT mix well (ever). In order to get enough velocity (so to have a flat enough trajectory) to make this proposition reasonably practical.....you'll need far hotter loads than a 215 grain cast bullet can stand, probably even with paper-patching.... and regardless of alloy used. You MIGHT be able to get what you need via paper - patching .....but, I seriously doubt it. You cannot push un-jacketed projectiles (even paper-patched) to the velocity needed to avoid an artillery - like bullet trajectory (at such long range), without serious lead deposition in your barrel - which means NO accuracy. What you are describing as your desired distance parameter is really only JACKETED bullet territory - and thus, unrealistic for cast bullets. (Yes, I am sure that SOMEONE out there shoots cast bullets at that kind of distance, but most certainly NOT without having to aim the rifle like a grenade launcher....which makes any true accuracy more than a bit problematic. Even if you tried a cast PP bullet in the vicinity of 150 grains, I don't think that you'll get there. Now, if you were to relax your desired maximum distance to say, 300 yards....THAT would be more practical. But, really, 500 yards is too much, for cast bullets.

As to powder choice, that must depend on barrel length, bullet weight used, actual shooting distance (500 yards is WORLDS different than 100 yards - and the technical issues compound accordingly) ...and what the rifle ends up "liking". Your question, as posed, has NO reliable answer. There are lots of powders that might fill the bill, depending on the details. But, more info is needed before any reasonable guesses can be made - and IMO, you need to re-think the 500 yard parameter. If you insist on 500 yards....then I'd recommend that you forego cast (or PP) bullets.....and shoot jacketed ones for that kind of distance.

[pdawg_shooter]

You CAN push a 30cal 200gr paper patch bullet (BHN 18) to a little over 3000fps with right at MOA accuracy from a 300RUM. The rifle is a Savage 116. I have a post on here if you want the specifics.

[leftiye]

So why can't a 2000 to 2600 fps boolit be shot 500 yards (accurately):Fire:?

[303Guy]

For target shooting there would be no handicap with an artillery type trajectory. From what the successful folks have posted I would think the 500yd objective would be a breeze. (If I may say, I am quite keen to hear lreed's eventual success which I am quite sure will come if he chooses to make it happen. :drinks: )

Just for fun I did a calc on JBM-Calculations


Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2000.0 1.798 580.8 0.000 0.0 ***
50 12.8 24.5 -3.7 -7.0 1900.7 1.708 498.5 0.077 13.5 25.9
100 25.3 24.2 -6.6 -6.3 1804.6 1.622 426.6 0.158 27.8 26.5
150 35.1 22.3 -8.8 -5.6 1711.9 1.539 364.2 0.243 42.8 27.3
200 41.9 20.0 -10.2 -4.9 1623.0 1.459 310.4 0.333 58.7 28.0
250 45.4 17.3 -10.8 -4.1 1542.9 1.387 266.6 0.428 75.3 28.8
300 45.2 14.4 -10.4 -3.3 1468.4 1.320 229.8 0.528 92.9 29.6
350 41.0 11.2 -9.2 -2.5 1397.9 1.256 198.3 0.633 111.3 30.4
400 32.4 7.7 -7.1 -1.7 1332.0 1.197 171.6 0.742 130.7 31.2
450 18.9 4.0 -4.0 -0.9 1271.0 1.142 149.1 0.858 151.0 32.0
500 -0.0 -0.0 -0.0 -0.0 1215.3 1.092 130.3 0.978 172.2 32.9

Error? 08/07/09 12:44, JBM/jbmtraj



And again


Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2400.0 2.157 1003.6 0.000 0.0 ***
50 8.4 16.0 -3.1 -5.9 2275.8 2.045 855.7 0.064 11.3 21.6
100 17.1 16.3 -5.6 -5.3 2160.2 1.942 731.9 0.132 23.2 22.2
150 24.0 15.2 -7.4 -4.7 2056.3 1.848 631.2 0.203 35.7 22.8
200 28.7 13.7 -8.7 -4.1 1955.2 1.757 542.7 0.278 48.9 23.4
250 31.3 11.9 -9.2 -3.5 1857.4 1.669 465.2 0.357 62.8 24.0
300 31.3 10.0 -9.0 -2.9 1762.8 1.584 397.7 0.439 77.3 24.6
350 28.5 7.8 -8.0 -2.2 1671.8 1.503 339.2 0.527 92.7 25.3
400 22.5 5.4 -6.2 -1.5 1585.8 1.425 289.5 0.619 108.9 26.0
450 13.2 2.8 -3.5 -0.8 1509.2 1.356 249.6 0.716 126.0 26.7
500 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 1436.5 1.291 215.2 0.818 143.9 27.5

Error? 08/07/09 12:42, JBM/jbmtraj From that I would say, very do-able indeed.

From what I have found, a 245gr 31cal cast boolit fired at very low velocity in a 1-in-10 twist, has tremendous stability in damp rags, traveling 18" or so and coming to rest nose first.

[bcp477]

Well, if I'm reading your tables correctly (they are VERY muddled), 303 Guy, there would be either 130".... or 172" ??? of drop (I assume that this is for ONE of the two cartridges mentioned)...... and 215"....or 144" ??? of drop for the other cartridge, at 500 yards. In addition, unless Ireed finds a load like pdawgshooter has, (i.e., a barn burner) with a PP bullet....then the trajectory could well be worse. As for pdawg's load, I certainly take his word for it - but I've never been able to get even REMOTELY close to that kind of velocity, with the BHN 15 PP bullets I use (and all I shoot is the 8 x 57, one of the two cartridges mentioned) - and I've never seen anyone else actually do it, either (though I have heard lots of claims). But, OK, if you say so - I stand corrected. As for a bullet launched at 2000 or so fps, as we all know, by the time said pill gets to 500 yds.... windage will be a REAL problem. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to get good accuracy with this scenario, no, certainly not - nothing is impossible, as they say. But, definitely a bit of a hurdle for us mere humans.

In any case, to you guys, this is no problem..... ? Heck, 500 yards is EASY Elmer..... " we'uns shoot gnats out of the air at twice that distance !! :-D "

Well, OK then. By all means, have at it. Whatever you say, fellas. :roll: I defer to your judgement and experience.

[303Guy]

Oops. I must appologise - I just assumed that because I know what I mean ..... ! I left off the long headings. Both tables are for a 220gr RN 30cal j-word and I was thinking 30-06. The idea was to show the ballpark trajectory and windage for a launch speed of and 2000fps which I would consider mild and 2400fps which I should think would be do-able relatively easily. The BC of a 220gr cast RN is not too shabby and a semi-spitzer would be quite good.

There are folks on this forum who shoot 1000yds with 450's using the Holy Grail - black powder! The black circle might be bigger than a pie plate but then 1000yds is a long way off! And when all ten of a ten shot string land inside the black .... well!:mrgreen: Anyway, yours was fair comment. But why would we want it to be easy - then just any ol' body could do it!:roll: (I would love to witness the 1000yd blackpowder trick. For that I would do the BBQ - complete with beer! :-D ) By the way, I haven't clocked up any successess with PP yet![smilie=1: But I will. And now I feel challenged to try for 500yds! Hee hee! :mrgreen:

[pdawg_shooter]

Seams like all the folk who say it cant be done have never tried it. Maybe they read it in some gun rag, or their shooting buddy told them. I never say never till I try it myself. I spent 3 months and burned 4 lbs of 4 different powders working at it. Probably never use that load but it felt real good getting it done.

[45 2.1]

Seams like all the folk who say it cant be done have never tried it.

Ain't that the truth..............................!

A lot of folks shoot normal 30/8mm cast boolit rifle loads at 600 yards and get good accuracy, which is equal to military ball ammo or slightly better.

[303Guy]

I spent 3 months and burned 4 lbs of 4 different powders working at it. Probably never use that load but it felt real good getting it done. Exactly! Fun! (And very satisfying). The great thing about getting into PP on this forum is the help and encouragement one gets. Just knowing that it's about finding the right 'formula', takes away the dissappointment of not getting it on that occasion.

[pdawg_shooter]

If it can be done with jacketed, it can pretty much be done with paper patch. Not quite the B.C. available in cast but close enough for government work!

[303Guy]

Not quite the B.C. ...I don't know so much ... A 220gr or even 245gr lead boolit with a reasonable semi-round nose has a pretty good B.C. Take a look at what JBM tells me.


Drag/Twist
Input Data
Caliber: 0.300 in Nose Length: 2.000
Meplat Diameter: 0.000 Ogive Radius: 3.000
Ogive Type: Tangent Boattail Length: 0.000
Base Diameter: 1.000 Total Length: 4.200
Rotating Band Diameter: 1.000

Bullet Weight: 245.0 gr Specific Gravity: 10.70

Drag Function: G1 Barrel Twist: 10.0 in
Output Data
RT/R: 1.000 Sectional Density: 0.389 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Mach Muzz Vel CD CD CD CD CD CD ______________BC _Form Twist
Number (ft/s) Nose Boattail Base Band Skin Total ____(G1) Factor (in)
1.000 1116.4 0.106 0.000 0.225 0.000 0.047 0.378 0.494 0.788 12.8 2.4
1.100 1228.1 0.257 0.000 0.222 0.000 0.046 0.525 0.436 0.892 11.8 2.1
1.200 1339.7 0.237 0.000 0.217 0.000 0.045 0.499 0.498 0.781 11.7 2.1
1.300 1451.4 0.225 0.000 0.213 0.000 0.043 0.481 0.532 0.731 11.8 2.1
1.400 1563.0 0.217 0.000 0.208 0.000 0.042 0.467 0.552 0.705 11.8 2.1
1.500 1674.7 0.211 0.000 0.202 0.000 0.041 0.454 0.563 0.691 11.9 2.1
1.600 1786.3 0.206 0.000 0.197 0.000 0.040 0.442 0.570 0.683 11.9 2.1
1.700 1898.0 0.201 0.000 0.191 0.000 0.039 0.430 0.573 0.678 12.0 2.1
1.800 2009.6 0.197 0.000 0.184 0.000 0.038 0.420 0.576 0.676 12.0 2.2
2.000 2232.9 0.191 0.000 0.172 0.000 0.036 0.399 0.579 0.672 12.1 2.2
2.200 2456.2 0.186 0.000 0.159 0.000 0.034 0.379 0.583 0.667 12.1 2.2
2.500 2791.1 0.179 0.000 0.141 0.000 0.032 0.352 0.597 0.652 12.2 2.2

Changing to a lightweight 220gr
Drag/Twist
Input Data
Caliber: 0.300 in Nose Length: 1.500
Meplat Diameter: 0.000 Ogive Radius: 1.000
Ogive Type: Tangent Boattail Length: 0.000
Base Diameter: 1.000 Total Length: 3.800
Rotating Band Diameter: 1.000

Bullet Weight: 220.0 gr Specific Gravity: 10.70

Drag Function: G1 Barrel Twist: 10.0 in
Output Data
RT/R: 1.000 Sectional Density: 0.349 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Mach Muzz Vel CD CD CD CD CD CD ______________BC _Form Twist
Number (ft/s) Nose Boattail Base Band Skin Total ____(G1) Factor (in)

1.000 1116.4 0.177 0.000 0.224 0.000 0.048 0.450 0.373 0.937 14.2 3.0
1.100 1228.1 0.370 0.000 0.221 0.000 0.047 0.637 0.322 1.083 13.1 2.6
1.200 1339.7 0.365 0.000 0.216 0.000 0.045 0.627 0.356 0.980 13.0 2.5
1.300 1451.4 0.350 0.000 0.212 0.000 0.044 0.606 0.379 0.920 13.0 2.5
1.400 1563.0 0.340 0.000 0.207 0.000 0.043 0.590 0.392 0.891 13.0 2.6
1.500 1674.7 0.332 0.000 0.202 0.000 0.042 0.575 0.399 0.876 13.1 2.6
1.600 1786.3 0.326 0.000 0.196 0.000 0.041 0.562 0.402 0.868 13.1 2.6
1.700 1898.0 0.320 0.000 0.190 0.000 0.040 0.550 0.403 0.866 13.2 2.6
1.800 2009.6 0.315 0.000 0.184 0.000 0.039 0.538 0.403 0.866 13.2 2.6
2.000 2232.9 0.307 0.000 0.171 0.000 0.037 0.515 0.402 0.868 13.3 2.6
2.200 2456.2 0.301 0.000 0.159 0.000 0.035 0.494 0.402 0.869 13.3 2.7
2.500 2791.1 0.292 0.000 0.140 0.000 0.033 0.465 0.405 0.862 13.4 2.7

[pdawg_shooter]

Dont know about your numbers but with a 30.06 a 214 gr PP lead shot about 4" lower at 200 than a 200gr Sierra BTHP Match with the same load.

[303Guy]

Yes, the hypothetical boolit I entered into the calculator gave me a BC of 0.4 while the 200gr matchking has a BC of 0.56 while a 150gr 30cal SBT has a BC of 0.38. I have a suspicion that a patched boolit could have a lower velocity with the same charge as a j-word due to lower lower pressure resulting from lower engraving resistance.

These tables are very muddled - they lose their column spacing when copied!

200gr BTHP match

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2700
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2542
200 -3.4 -1.6 1.3 0.6 2391

215gr hypothetical cast BC=0.4

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2700
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2479
200 -3.7 -1.8 1.8 0.9 2269


Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2400
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2194
200 -5.2 -2.5 2.2 1.1 1998


215gr hypothetical cast BC=0.3

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach OGW (BG) Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (lb) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.0 *** 0.0 *** 2400
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2127
200 -5.7 -2.7 3.1 1.5 1873

Mmmm. Looking at these calcs I can't say. Niether the BC nor the MV can account for the 4 inch difference! Besides, a heavy boolit tends to burn the powder well so I wouldn't expect much difference in chamber pressure. And anyway, it seems that with heavier bullets, PP's might even have the velocity edge. (In your case the PP was heavier so should be a little slower). Interesting! Did you re-zero your rifle when changing from j's to PP? (Silly question, I know but just making sure).

[leftiye]

It's like trying to read alphabit cereal in mid air when someone laughs with a mouthful.

[longbow]

A little more fuel for the "I can do It!" crowd, here is a link to the sticky posted by roberbank ~ "CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES" by Ed Harris:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17574

There is mention in here about 600 yard deer and target load for cast boolits. These are not paper patch boolits either so are likely even lower than the velocities you can achieve with paper patching.

There is a good write up in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook with info on paper patching and loads for the Lyman 160 gr. and 200 gr. PP boolits whiuch I understand are no longer available. Very high ballistic coefficients and rather high velocities listed for .30-06. If you want some load data let me know.

Not disagreeing that trajectory and wind drift might be an issue and I cannot say I have done it, but I believe it can reasonably be done.

Longbow

[303Guy]

It's like trying to read alphabit cereal in mid air...
Yeah, I know. It's quite clear in the original table that JBM shows. Anyway, on paper it looks as though a heavy cast boolit has good ballistics and reasonable range. My understanding is that cast and/or patched boolits can produce better accuracy than j-words. What do the Metalic Silhouette folks use?

[Digital Dan]

Hello: What would be the first choices of powders to try in 8mm & 30-06 using 215ish paper-patched bullets? Accuracy is a must,velocity is a desire,and my goal is 500 yd target. Could be a tall order,but thought maybe here is the place to ask. Thanks lreed

You have powder recommendations, but the trick will be to either accept low velocity or use a harder alloy to preclude stripping I think. I've not much experience with alloy bullets, using swagged pure lead. In the .44/.45 caliber you can push up to something around the 1600-1800 fps range with those bullets and something in the range of a 20" twist. My assumptions, based on load data for jacketed bullets is that pressures in the range of 35 KPSI will start stripping the bullet with smokeless powder and that twist rate with .004" groove depth. I could be full of hooey on that but it's my conclusion nonetheless.

Don't let the low velocity thing scare you off of that approach. A loopy trajectory is not a serious issue at 500 yards. .45-70s have been tearing up targets for a long time at that range and longer. Wind drift is a bigger issue and heavy for caliber bullets provide higher BC in general, and less drift.