What to try next?

[cabezaverde]

I have 3 different 357 revolvers, all experiencing varying degrees of barrel leading, all are more than a light wash with some slivers after 15 or so shots. 2 Ruger SP 101s and a Security Six (6" barrel).

I reamed the throats on all 3 revolvers in the hopes of solving this problem. Shot them this morning, and the leading is still taking place.

Here are the particulars.
38 special brass.

Bores are .357".
Cylinders have been reamed to 358".
Bullets are Lee 158 RF, measure .359".

Lube is 2 light coats of LLA.

Alloys is about 90% ww, 10% pure.

I have tried light charges of WW231 and HS-6.

Any ideas for me? Do I need to push this bullet faster?

[runfiverun]

try another lube.
i have shot my 38's at 750 fps with a similar set-up just a different lube and have had no problems.
it could be a softer alloy needed or push them a bit more.
one thing at a time.
it could just be the shorter brass too.

[454PB]

Try using .357 brass, I bet the leading stops. The shorter .38 brass is allowing hot gases around the boolit base while still in the chamber, the same principle as oversize throats.

[DJ303]

I had the same problem. Lee 158RF, LLA .38 brass. Bought A lyman 4500 & lubed with orange magic. Same size boolit, no leading. Waiting for Lar's carnuba red to arrive, & see how that works.

[Bass Ackward]

Danged if I wouldn't go to one gun until I got some semblance of it being right. Beats cleaning three. But in the end, you might still lead.

I think the guys gave you enough to try. I won't even try PB until the gun has 1000 rounds or so. Then I try a historical load and if it still won't work I revisit it at 2000 rounds. Then I can have fun shooting in the mean time and not get down on the gun. Freedom Arms advises against PB as the base flares under pressure while the bullet is engraving. This excessively polishes the mouths of the throats with a reverse taper and elongating the forcing cone more than it might otherwise be. This will cause light, short bullet issues in time. This usually comes as a shock to guys dead set against jacketed that actually perform a service.

The last 7 handguns that I bought second hand were basically new and leaded when I got them. Bet that played a big part in the decision to sell. A box of checks eliminates counting. I have break in bullet designs (GC) for all calibers I shoot now. It just isn't worth the pain if you want to shoot.

[44man]

I have 3 different 357 revolvers, all experiencing varying degrees of barrel leading, all are more than a light wash with some slivers after 15 or so shots. 2 Ruger SP 101s and a Security Six (6" barrel).

I reamed the throats on all 3 revolvers in the hopes of solving this problem. Shot them this morning, and the leading is still taking place.

Here are the particulars.
38 special brass.

Bores are .357".
Cylinders have been reamed to 358".
Bullets are Lee 158 RF, measure .359".

Lube is 2 light coats of LLA.

Alloys is about 90% ww, 10% pure.

I have tried light charges of WW231 and HS-6.

Any ideas for me? Do I need to push this bullet faster?
Why bother adding pure lead unless you are hunting? Just use WW's and water drop them to harden more. Let them age a week after sizing.
That boolit has a bevel base, get the bevel cut out of the mold.
Use .357 brass, use a slower powder like Blue Dot.
Dump the Alox, it is a lube that only works under very small conditions. I can't use it at all.

I don't agree with Bass. I take a new revolver out of the box and it shoots any lead, GC or PB right from the git-go. You all know I don't like over 1" at 50 yards and I don't like leading.
We are getting 1/2" at 50 with a new Ruger Hunter that has only seen the jacketed used to proof it.
I don't agree with Baker either! :confused: What is the difference between an over size boolit and one that expands to fit? Flare the base to wear a gun????? If the boolit is soft enough to flare the base, it is also setting back to fit the whole throat but can distort too much at the forcing cone. How can you flare a base if the boolit is over size and is being sized in the throat? Remember that if you send Baker a gun back with an over size or out of round barrel, he will blame you for shooting a jacketed bullet after shooting lead even if you never fired the gun! He says running over lead will ruin a barrel! All of you that use a jacketed bullet to clean out lead can throw out your guns. :mrgreen:
Worn guns? My SBH has just jumped past 60,000 rounds and still averages 1-1/4" at 100 yards even with the sand blasted forcing cone edge. The barrel needs set back but I won't do it as long as it shoots. I was shooting coke cans at 100 yesterday.
I can not detect any wear in the throats or bore, they measure the same as when it was new.
My BFR's have seen less then 20 jacketed at some time since I bought them just to see how they shoot and they do shoot but cost too much. I get cast to shoot better anyway.
Sorry Bass, I put my hat on backwards for you! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

The Lee boolit without a bevel base. It is a GREAT boolit and will cut groups in half when the bevel is gone. Stuff with Felix lube and go shoot! :Fire:

[DJ303]

What's the best wat to cut out the bevel??

[44man]

What's the best wat to cut out the bevel??
It is tough by hand even with the right tools but there are some super machinists here that can do it cheap for you. Check with Buckshot. It is well worth it.
To tell the truth, I do not remember what tools I used. The problem with Lee molds is that there is not a 90* surface anywhere on the blocks so they are hard to indicate. So just setting the bottom of the blocks on a drill press does not guarantee a straight hole.
I have been thinking of a steel cutter the exact size of the bottom drive band with the cutters UP. Close the blocks on the cutter and turn it as it is pulled out of the mold. Then lap a little to smooth.
Not worth the work since I only had the one BB mold and a different size would be needed for every different size mold of the same caliber and all the other calibers. It is easier to stay away from BB molds.

[cabezaverde]

Interesting thoughts, maybe I will try a different mold. I just love making them 6 at a time though.

[Bass Ackward]

What is the difference between an over size boolit and one that expands to fit? Sorry Bass, I put my hat on backwards for you! :bigsmyl2:


I'd say that you have about as one sided a view of shooting as I have ever seen. :grin: Do you shoot trap with Turkey loads too? Do groundhogs get the 500 Nitro? Or do you load down just a tad?

I heed your advice every single time I want to run wide open. I do because it worked for me back in the 60s when WW was 9% antimony, so why wouldn't it work today for hard bullets? But you are not flexible.

Well, if you apply the same logic to other things, say driving. I believe that you probably have a brick on the foot feed and you simply work the break and the clutch. So what happens with that technique if you want to drive where speed limits are posted?

Shooting is getting to be more difficult in many areas. Even some of the local clubs here have been getting crap from the locals. So velocity is now limited to 1100 fps max. I don't care if you are shooting at rams or what. Sorry, them's the rules.

Now what do you do with the rock technique then? Survive, overcome, adapt. :grin:

[crabo]

Have you thought about firelapping the barrel? I always do that to any gun that I want to shoot cast in and I feel like it really helps.

[GabbyM]

Liquid Alox needs to dry for two weeks before being loaded and shot.
NOt saying you can't get away with dip and shoot.

[NuJudge]

I'm curious if your cylinder throats are smaller than your groove diameter. Measure them. CDD

[MtGun44]

Use a normal lube. Many have had good results with LLA, many have NOT had
good results. If you have poor results when using LLA, try a 50/50 NRA formula,
not because it is necessarily best or even necessarily better, but because a whole
lot of folks have had good results with it in a whole lot of guns over many decades.
There are also many other good lubes out there, but few with such a wide, deep and
long experience base.

Just as a general tip, whenever you have bad results, look at where you can substitute
a "known good" practice, material, or part. I do this when troubleshooting a car or
lawnmower, and also when troubleshooting a load for a pistol. A 'known good' could
be a boolit design, a lube or a powder charge. May not work, but has a good likelihood
of getting you into known territory and may show that you have a piece of the puzzle
that isn't working for your particular case.

Bill

[44man]

Now Bass, I don't shoot wide open all the time but I sure know the faster the powder, the harder the starting thump before the boolit hits the forcing cone, the harder the boolit needs to be.
You can get away with a lot more alloys with a slow powder that starts a boolit more gently then you can with Bullseye or Unique.
I think this is where you have the most trouble with your guns and why they need shot 2000 times to cut down leading.
Yes I shoot thousands of light loads for fun and have no problems at all because the softest boolit is still water dropped at 22 BHN.
If your gun shoots a jacketed bullet super good, why would you expect an 8 BHN lead boolit to do as good? Doesn't it make sense to try and equal the jacketed bullet?
The reason you never see anything from me about light loads is that I never, ever shoot targets with them! I shoot cans to 50 yards and steel gongs to 100, but mostly little targets up closer. I do not have the slightest idea how they group because I don't hunt with them and don't care.
I do know a soft boolit and a poor lube will lead my gun so I don't use either. I want a boolit to leave the muzzle, not a deformed blob of putty that does not look like the boolit I spent so much work on to cast perfect and load perfect.
I don't care how you turn your hat but you will never convince me soft lead is better with slow loads.
I do not believe in boolits expanding to fit ANY gun.

[Bass Ackward]

I think this is where you have the most trouble with your guns and why they need shot 2000 times to cut down leading.

If your gun shoots a jacketed bullet super good, why would you expect an 8 BHN lead boolit to do as good? Doesn't it make sense to try and equal the jacketed bullet?

I do not believe in boolits expanding to fit ANY gun.


You just don't understand. I will continue this as others may be following. Leading in a new gun can be your friend and not your enemy. It allows you to see where it is. It is evidence of an issue that may or may not require some action. If you don't, then you shoot slop into your gun. If you use hard bullets, you are really going to be tougher on that gun than if you don't.

If you shoot long, heavy bullets before the gun is ready, you are really going to shoot slop into the forcing cone. Then you are going to have a larger and longer cone. This is the theory behind the taylor throat. Allow the bullet to completely exit and then begin coarse correction. But this ruins the gun for use with lighter slugs. Then we get wives tales about heavier bullets per caliber outperforming light bullets and matching bullet weight to twist rates and such. Most wives tales occur to explain failure and justify success. And if a group of guys do something all the same, isn't it possible that they all find the same opinion? Does that mean there isn't another way? :grin: Or if you repeat a mistake 10 times that it makes it the only way? :grin:

The real crime is guys starting too early with a new gun and trying and discarding designs that may later be just the ticket. I said 2000 rounds to quit changing. Big difference. Some of my most accurate combinations lead some. But I have had bad performers that didn't lead a flake. Some of my best designs were ones that were crap to start out. I want / need a stable gun position for loads to quit changing. Jacketed loads change too. Some loads are developed and shoot well over copper. And then don't as the gun smooths and quits. Copper needs to be cleaned out if you want to polish steel instead of copper. POIs change constantly. But copper leaves a visual trail that can't be confused as with an unlubed lead bullet that was gas cut and blew off it's lube. If a gun pulls copper, it will be hard on lead too. Even if you don't see it left behind.

As you try and shoot around corners in a new gun, soft lead often gets around those corners better than hard. It works better with constrictions that hard won't. And as the gun changes, using PB, you eventually will need to go to other mixes or change powders altogether. This requires bullets on hand of many mixes not to mention powder selections. This is the pain of which I speak. Not leading.

ACWW and GC designs are the most flexible and forgiving of the three types mentioned. They can be shot softer for the benefit of the gun and not require a mix change unless drastic change occurs. Plus they keep the round count for you. They minimize the need to clean if you were leading or coppering. Accuracy and POI will still change, but not as quick and usually a small powder charge adjustment will bring it back. And the beauty is that it requires one bullet of that type (mix) on the shelves.

The .... "Break-in Bullet ". :grin:

[44man]

Well you make a lot of sense and I can't dispute you but you need to understand that I just don't want to do all the work! :groner:
I find what works as quick as I can for hunting, the rest is play time.
I have had to experiment with the 45-70 for deer because it is too fast and pokes a hole even with a WFN. I need a softer boolit.
Shooting heat treated 50-50 WW's and pure has shown accuracy with many shots touching at 50 yards, however I get fliers too. Not bad enough to miss deer at 100 but they drive me nuts. Going to AC WW's reduces the fliers but leaves too much leading. Water dropped stops the leading and accuracy of all shots is better. An even harder alloy, water dropped will get me under an inch at 100 yards.
This has proven true for all of my revolvers and all of my friends revolvers. Tweaking the alloy and hardness has altered accuracy faster then changing loads and to keep working with a boolit that gives me no accuracy does not fit what I want to do.
Boolit design has no effect and I have made 5 molds for each gun with all sorts of GG configurations, front and rear band widths, meplats and PB or GC. As long as they are truncated cone, all shoot at least 1" at 50 yards, many have broken 1/2". The only boolits I can't get the kind of accuracy I want are any Keith design. No amount of alloy change or load change will better 2" at 50.
I spent too many years fooling with everything from pure lead to 30 BHN boolits to ever want to fool with it more because I know what works in my guns.
I DO have to bite the boolit :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: with the 45-70 and go to a 50-50 alloy with a hollow point for deer and accept some fliers. The only alternative is a jacketed bullet. They need to be hardened to maintain grip on the rifling so they don't skid past the bottom band. They also need a gas check as PB boolits with this alloy scatter all over the paper. Sure I could shoot them at 700 fps but where is the accuracy? Make the boolit work and stop the skidding yet shoot a load that throws boolits anyway does not solve anything.
I don't know if you ever shot 300 to 400 gr boolits out of a 1 in 14" twist! Just how soft do you think you can use at 1630 fps? Do you really believe you can make the gun accurate at 700 fps?
You do not seem to believe in twist rates effecting accuracy! :!:
I can only say it is EXTREMELY important and is ignored too much by revolver shooters.
For a given boolit, the velocity MUST match the twist rate and the alloy MUST match the velocity. There is no other road to accuracy!
To think you can shoot ANY boolit of any weight from 600 to 1800 fps is a pipe dream. The boolit you choose might NEED 1350 fps in the twist. How anyone can dance around that fact does not compute.
Now Bass, if you want to have fun and spend the rest of your life fooling around, get a Marlin .44 with the 1 in 38" twist. Make it shoot past 50 yards with MOA accuracy to 200 yards. Then come back before you die and tell me twist does not matter! ;) Oh, I forgot, it is a rifle! Twist in a revolver is different and does not matter at all. OK, get a 1 in 38" twist barrel for your .44 revolver.
See ya at the local booby hatch! I will bring you flowers cast out of lead.
Darn, I forgot! Don't you think the right boolit nose shape and some cylinder play will prevent off center forcing cone wear? I have yet to see what you are talking about after 56 years shooting revolvers. I have learned that a super tight cylinder lockup is just wrong. It just feels good to show friends. [smilie=f:

[Bass Ackward]

Now Bass, if you want to have fun and spend the rest of your life fooling around, get a Marlin .44 with the 1 in 38" twist. Make it shoot past 50 yards with MOA accuracy to 200 yards. Then come back before you die and tell me twist does not matter! ;) Oh, I forgot, it is a rifle! Twist in a revolver is different and does not matter at all. OK, get a 1 in 38" twist barrel for your .44 revolver.


I do in fact have a Marlin 1894P and it simply wasn't that hard to get to shoot well. It will actually shoot sub MOA with 270 grain Speer God Dots for three shots using 19.5 grains of H-110. But that is a different issue.

Pop Quiz: You have been shooting a new gun and you start to notice a smooth spot forming high left and only high left in the forcing cone but you have slight leading low right. Is the problem:

1. A forcing cone cut out of line that the bullet is hitting low right and deflecting high causing that lead and wear pattern?

2. Is your barrel off center or not straight in your frame?

3. Is this all chambers and is your cylinder out of line?

4. Is this simply a barrel that was torced on too tight and the steel buckled in the weakest point causing .002 of a non-uniform constriction? (9 out of 10 constrictions are of this type and not uniform. But slugging just simply indicated a smaller diameter by feel and out of round on the mics)

Somebody who fire laps with compound or hard bullets may not get enough clues to diagnose the problem before it is worn away. And just maybe it isn't enough to worry about. Choice 1 and 4 are the most common and are easily corrected. 2 and 3 are a waste of time and components. Even if you have a custom made gun made on this setup later, the new stuff is going to follow the old holes and you end up with an expensive screw up. :grin: So it really pays to know.

If you fire lapped, the slugs wore low right at first impact and high left as it deflected up and away from that contact making the cone and the end of the bore oblong. You will have a slug doing S curves to get passed it like a snake for thousands of rounds until it corrects. Then the gun will be useless for light slugs and the barrel will have to be set back. Which if not done properly can repeat the process and start the break in process all over again. :grin: Or you can open the throats and shoot larger diameter bullets too. That is another option if you guess correctly.

Of all of these, fire lapping may show great improvement or none. But a soft slug that polishes slowly or leads will at least have you thinking before too much damage is done. Same with copper.

So this causes all forms of stereotypes:

1. Fire lapping works wonders. Fire lapping sucks.

2. Heavy bullets you already know about.

3. Twist rate you already know about even if it is misguided. :grin:

4. Problems with PB in general. Now this is a bigger issue than goes on here because nobody wants to admit problems. Don't listen to what a man says, watch what he does. When group GC sales are made, the line is almost endless and the numbers staggering. Hmmmmmmm.

5. Some designs suck. Mostly a stronger design will shoot better like an LBT.

6. Some lubes suck. You may need a stouter or more persistent lube than the next guy to still avoid leading.

And a whole host of other issues that I can't recall right now. This is enough to make the point. So we wonder why there are no rules is because we are all working with something different at the beginning and during the process. You will find much more agreement with guys after stuff is broken in. So I just choose to wait for when that time comes.

Even LBT wants to sell GC designs. Just read his "How to Select" section. He has like 10 things positive for a GC and the only one for PB is that you won't buy a mold from him any other way. :grin: Is there a message there?

[Bass Ackward]

Cabby,

I feel guilty for getting off track. If you like LLA you can also enhance it. Use it as a carrier.

It thins very well with Bull Plate lube but it won't dry as well, so you will need a coating. Dip the loaded round in Molybdenum disulphide. Warning: Smells like septic waste. And mix in small batches too until you get a consistency you can live with.

Between one of those two things, it behaves one hell of a lot better. Can't win fair in life, cheat.

[cabezaverde]

Interesting discussions-

I loaded up a few last night with 50/50 lube.

If that doesn't work, I will try 357 brass next.

[44man]

I do in fact have a Marlin 1894P and it simply wasn't that hard to get to shoot well. It will actually shoot sub MOA with 270 grain Speer God Dots for three shots using 19.5 grains of H-110. But that is a different issue.

Pop Quiz: You have been shooting a new gun and you start to notice a smooth spot forming high left and only high left in the forcing cone but you have slight leading low right. Is the problem:

1. A forcing cone cut out of line that the bullet is hitting low right and deflecting high causing that lead and wear pattern?

2. Is your barrel off center or not straight in your frame?

3. Is this all chambers and is your cylinder out of line?

4. Is this simply a barrel that was torced on too tight and the steel buckled in the weakest point causing .002 of a non-uniform constriction? (9 out of 10 constrictions are of this type and not uniform. But slugging just simply indicated a smaller diameter by feel and out of round on the mics)

Somebody who fire laps with compound or hard bullets may not get enough clues to diagnose the problem before it is worn away. And just maybe it isn't enough to worry about. Choice 1 and 4 are the most common and are easily corrected. 2 and 3 are a waste of time and components. Even if you have a custom made gun made on this setup later, the new stuff is going to follow the old holes and you end up with an expensive screw up. :grin: So it really pays to know.

If you fire lapped, the slugs wore low right at first impact and high left as it deflected up and away from that contact making the cone and the end of the bore oblong. You will have a slug doing S curves to get passed it like a snake for thousands of rounds until it corrects. Then the gun will be useless for light slugs and the barrel will have to be set back. Which if not done properly can repeat the process and start the break in process all over again. :grin: Or you can open the throats and shoot larger diameter bullets too. That is another option if you guess correctly.

Of all of these, fire lapping may show great improvement or none. But a soft slug that polishes slowly or leads will at least have you thinking before too much damage is done. Same with copper.

So this causes all forms of stereotypes:

1. Fire lapping works wonders. Fire lapping sucks.

2. Heavy bullets you already know about.

3. Twist rate you already know about even if it is misguided. :grin:

4. Problems with PB in general. Now this is a bigger issue than goes on here because nobody wants to admit problems. Don't listen to what a man says, watch what he does. When group GC sales are made, the line is almost endless and the numbers staggering. Hmmmmmmm.

5. Some designs suck. Mostly a stronger design will shoot better like an LBT.

6. Some lubes suck. You may need a stouter or more persistent lube than the next guy to still avoid leading.

And a whole host of other issues that I can't recall right now. This is enough to make the point. So we wonder why there are no rules is because we are all working with something different at the beginning and during the process. You will find much more agreement with guys after stuff is broken in. So I just choose to wait for when that time comes.

Even LBT wants to sell GC designs. Just read his "How to Select" section. He has like 10 things positive for a GC and the only one for PB is that you won't buy a mold from him any other way. :grin: Is there a message there?
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/Plainbaseboolits.jpg
I have never seen what you are talking about with off center wear. I have never needed to fire lap a revolver except one Ruger with a tight spot where the barrel was screwed in, no off center wear with the few shots needed.
But I am having a hard time with PB boolits at 1632 fps from my 45-70 BFR (The left target at 50 yards, 5/16" is the best I can do.)
The .475 at 1329 fps is also giving me fits at 50 yards and 5 shot groups need work.
I have to wonder if all the configurations of my boolit designs are at fault? OOPS, the lower right is a LEE! Maybe the lube is wrong! Do I need a gas check? Is my gun broke in? I shot these from new guns so it might be I need to shoot them more. But it is funny after thousands of more shots, nothing has improved??? [smilie=b:
Bass, I need help! :takinWiz:

[44man]

Bass, PLEEEEZE explain how I feel about twist rates are misguided.
Can you shoot a boolit from a 1 in 60" twist with a muzzle loader? Can you shoot a round ball from a 1 in 28" twist?
What is better at 100 yards from a 30-06, 1 in 10" or 1 in 12"?
Which is better at 400 yards?
Show me. I have never seen you post group pictures of any kind from revolvers but you keep telling me I am wrong.
I have thrown my hat in the ring, or do I need to slap you with a glove? [smilie=l:

[BABore]

I have thrown my hat in the ring, or do I need to slap you with a glove? [smilie=l:

Make sure you throw a few of them 475 boolits down the finners of that glove first. :takinWiz::-P

[44man]

Make sure you throw a few of them 475 boolits down the finners of that glove first. :takinWiz::-P
Naw, Bass is a nice guy. I just think he is a little misguided as far as twist goes! :kidding:

[Bass Ackward]

Jim,

Look at this board. This board isn't about what works. It's about what doesn't work.

There are people that take 38 twist and make heavy slugs work. I have 44s with 16 to 20 twists in handguns with different barrel lengths and they all work the "easiest" right on the top. In fact, 23.5 grins of H-110 shoots in all of them with a 240 grain slug either lead or copper.

In fact, that works in the 38 twist rifle too. If twist rate was the all important bugaboo, then they would all have different accuracy points. So when a lead slug performs it's best, are we REALLY matching twist rates? If just one guy can shoot a 300 grainer stable to 300 yards, then there is something limiting us why we can't. If one guy can shoot a WFN from a handgun accurately at 200 yards, shouldn't it be possible? But it does get easier if we cut the meplat. It does get easier if we increase twist rates. That is up until the lead can't hold it.

So are we looking for the easy way out?

Next issue: There isn't a person on this board that won't agree with you that the "easiest" way for accuracy in a handgun is hard and wide open. This is why cast was replaced by jacketed. You can ask my mother that has never shot a cast bullet in her life and she will tell you that.

So now that you admit that you do shoot lower velocity loads. Show us how to get PB at 900 fps loads that shoot 1 1/4" at 100 yards. Beyond beginners, THAT's what people are mostly here for. Not the easy stuff, but the stuff that causes problems. :grin:

And I read your challenge. I posted a 100 yard 4" group with a 4" S&W, 45AR and 260 grain bullet using opens. Velocity was 800 fps. Slow it down below 1000 fps and take off your glass, I'll shoot with ya. :grin:

[45 2.1]

Next issue: There isn't a person on this board that won't agree with you that the "easiest" way for accuracy in a handgun is hard and wide open.

I don't agree on this point.

Nice dissertation on the other stuff John.

[44man]

Bass, I am the first to admit that each twist has a broad range where it will shoot all kinds of boolits. But for the finest accuracy, each boolit needs a certain velocity range.
I have found the proper twist will allow good shooting over a wider range of boolit weights and loads.
However guns like the Marlin will need a very tight spot to shoot in. I admit to not being successful with the thing using cast boolits that I want to hunt with. One day I will shoot a small group at 100 thinking I have it solved so I load more, a few days later I spray the target like a shotgun. I have shot 1/2" groups at 50 yet the same load on the same day is all over the paper at 100.
So, if you will, please show me how to get this gun to shoot all of my cast boolits from 265 RD through a 330 gr. Sizes from .432" to .434".
I really do need help with this abortion. It can't shoot fast enough to spin up a boolit. Even the .444 couldn't with the slow twist.
I can tell you for sure that if it was 1 in 20" I could make it shoot anything. If you notice, they changed the .444 to 1 in 20".
As for a light load shooting a small group at 100 with the .44, I doubt it could be done. It is just too far off. Problems that can't be solved means that things do not match, nothing is repeatable even if you luck into one small group.
For example, my friend brought over his brand new BFR 45-70. I mounted the Ultra Dot, cleaned out the copper and loaded his brass with my boolits and load. It took just a few shots to sight it at 50 and I then was shooting 1-1/4" pieces of plastic at 100 yards. I can do it today, tommorrow or next year. If I change the load, it can not be done! There is no way to make a slower load of say 1000 fps hit those small targets. All of my revolvers are the same and even the .44 SBH will average 1-1/4" at 100 (Tell and show me how to do this with the Marlin using the RD 265 gr boolit). The SRH I had would hit coke cans at 200 as will my 45-70 and .475. I can't shoot loads that do not match and do that.
These are the problems all the guys ask about, there is no answer because things do not match. They are outside of the parameters of twist, velocity and pressure rise. It is like sewing a button hole without a slot! You can't get a button in.
There is NO easy way out, rules need to be followed for the revolver as it is the hardest gun to get accuracy from. I know how to make a revolver shoot and I can't jump all over the place and make them work. My guns MUST shoot the same every day of the year.
Shooting a WLN or WFN stable to 500 meters is easy and I figure to shoot to 800 yards soon. It will be hard to find an aiming point with the red dot but I am sure I can hit once I find it. I have to aim 26 feet high at 500 meters. There is no way to get a sight setting with a revolver without a ladder sight.
The problem with the big meplats is that guys are shooting them out of line from what the twist will do. You can NOT shoot a 320 WFN from a .44 at 900 fps or a 420 gr WFN from a .475 at the same velocity.
Most stick to 25 yards for revolver work and are happy with 2" and once in a while they get a small group to brag about. Carry the load out to 100 and see what it does! [smilie=1:
Have you noticed the great groups being shot by a few of the guys? They PM and E mail me, even send me cylinders and size dies to work on. I am so happy to help and am so happy to see what they are doing now. I never tell them anything will work, they follow directions and reap rewards.
I can not make any gun shoot outside of what it needs.
Now the secret to the great accuracy the BFR's have. The 45-70 is 1 in 14" and the .475 is 1 in 15". Ideal for the slower velocities of revolvers and allow for lower pressure loads to reach accuracy. Slow the twist and hotter loads are needed until you exceed safe pressures or just plain beat the gun.

[mtgrs737]

Check for a barrel thread area pinch down and a rough/shallow forcing cone first. If they are alright open up the cylinder throats to .359" and size to at least that size.

[44man]

And I read your challenge. I posted a 100 yard 4" group with a 4" S&W, 45AR and 260 grain bullet using opens. Velocity was 800 fps. Slow it down below 1000 fps and take off your glass, I'll shoot with ya. :grin:
Bass, if you think a red dot is easier then open sights, I have news for you! :Fire: The thing covers a LOT of target. Open sights are a lot easier with a six o'clock hold. YOU have the advantage!
I have NO magnification and a huge red dot that will cover a paper target so all I see are the edges. You should try a red dot at 200 to 500! :mrgreen:
But, OK, I will load some light loads for my .44 soon and see what they do.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,:Fire::Fire:
Back in the 70-80's I would take my 2 kid brothers out on Timpanogos mt. & hunt pot gut / ground squirrels. I loaned George & Carl my 2 -22 rifles I of course took my 7MM Mag. ( loaded w/ cast) & my 44 mag ( loaded w/ cast).
I pissed George off so much (because none of the squirrels I shot at got away) he swore he was going to buy a 600 nitro , just so he could go squirrel hunting w/ me.
Brass cost soon deterred him,as if the cost of the gun was not bad enough.
But he did go out & get a 375 H&H, as soon as he was old enough & rich enough.
Carl got a little annoyed as well they both got 41 mags. :Fire::Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

My success with getting first time users to shoot well enough to stay interested in cast is better with hard GC bullets than any other technique. Usually no leading is more important than pure accuracy. To start to move beyond that point requires folks to take the time to learn more about cast and to learn their guns. Same with rifles actually.

Everything has to have a historical perspective. A person that has a 4" 44 Special that has the same twist rate as an 8 3/8s 44 Mag, better know his gun and have a broad repituar because he can't reach 1400 - 1600 fps. And in the old days when it was the target cartridge of choice, they couldn't either.

My most accurate gun I ever owned or shot until it fell apart was a Charter Snub in 38 Special. It would consistently do less than 1" at 50. Many 5 shot groups covered with a nickel. You just had to live with it 6" low and right. But only with the one load. Everything else, it was a piece of crap.

[44man]

In the old days I thought I had accuracy! I was shooting stuff at 200 yards back in 1956 with my .44 but the stuff was pretty large. Even earlier I was shooting my .357 at 100 at very small targets with cast.
How I wish I still had those guns.
You are right Bass, you need to find what your gun likes and reduced leading is best for a beginner. I would never expect a new revolver shooter to get tight groups with even the best loads. On top of that a beginner does not need recoil to screw up his head.
Recoil does not bother me but I remember my first shot from my flat top Ruger. Factory stuff was HOT and I needed brass that was not on the market yet. I had to look my gun over. Something HAD to blow up! [smilie=l: Nothing wrong and with a big grin, I fell in love with the gun.
My first IHMSA shoots showed me the .44 revolver sucked and nobody was shooting good scores with them. That is when I got to work and made my SBH shoot so I shot many 38's, 39's, 40's and 79 out of 80 and even was able to hit most shoot off targets (Chickens) at 200 meters. That was with Hornady bullets and open sights.
Going to cast again after I quit IHMSA because of expense, the problems crept back and I had to solve them. There is just no reason lead should shoot worse and it doesn't, it can do better then jacketed.
IHMSA spoiled me and now using my guns for fun and hunting, my accuracy desires are even tighter then for IHMSA. I will always feel that accuracy for hunting is way more important then for any other thing a guy can shoot at. I hate paper, steel is fun but tiny targets at long range are better and if they explode it is more fun. Then a pile of dead deer and a freezer full along with giving my neighbors deer is even more demanding for accuracy.
I hate when someone says "It is good enough for hunting."