Powder too slow? 8 X 56Rmm 210gr w/pics

[Old Time Hunter]

Help! This is becoming frustrating. Trying to get a consistant, universal (either plinking or hunting in a pinch) load behind a Lee C329-205-1R cast bullet with gas check. This bullet drops at approximately .330" +/- .005" and with sizing to .3295" and adding a gas check, the 50 bullet ave. weight is 209.9 grains. My first loading sessions revolved around building up using Unique powder. My conclusions with this powder yielded a point of diminishing returns at 15.25 grains of powder and a tad under 1500 fps (1489 ave), adding more powder just made a bigger bang, but even with 16.5 grains only yielded an increase of 20 fps. Therefore I turned my attention to going to a slower powder thinking that I needed a longer pressure curve to accelerate the bullet longer. Using H4895 and a 30.0 grain charge, has been abysmal to say the least. Velocities have been all over the board even though I have been extremely careful weighing each and every load on both a balance beam scale and an electric scale. I had loaded 50 rounds for testing, but did not get past 15 of them as I had three misfires, one which lodged the bullet 1 inch up the throat, one that just had the bullet fall into the chamber, and one that did not even break out of the cartridge. Those that did, I had considerable "blow back". By the way, I have done a chamber cast, slugged the bore and all is within the "small" specs of Military Handbook specifications, except the throat length, which appears to have been machined(reamed) deeper than specs. Please see below the "after" pictures of the rounds, the five in the clip are freshly fired 15.0 grains of Unique and exhibit none of the before mentioned calamities. Oh yea, the spread of the H4895 in velocity was from 1290fps to 1710fps on the ones that lit. Is my powder too slow from the application? These H4895 loads and bullets (sized down to .3235") work fine in my 8 X 57's(Commission 88, K98, Gew 98).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/OTH_2006/8X56RH4895.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/OTH_2006/8X56R1.jpg

[runfiverun]

try a filler with your 4895 load it's sloshing around in that big ole case.
causing very poor ignition.
a side note, when you get diminishing returns lke you did with the unique. thats usually a sign you have hit a pressure barrier either the powders or the guns.

[twotoescharlie]

slug the bore, I have 14 of these carbines-- none of then has a .329 bore, I use a .338 cast boolit sized down to .002 over bore size, TL all shoot as well as I can hold and see for a 72 year old.

TTC

[Bret4207]

yup, use the boolit unsized. Try 13.0 Red Dot.

[Danny Young Sr.]

I tried loading my 205 gr cast with 15 gr bullseye. My accuracy was great for the first 10 shots or so until I noticed the severe lead fowling in the barrel. I was loading them unsized with no gas checks. Took me all afternoon to clean it all out.

[Old Time Hunter]

twotoe, this one slugs at .316 lands and .3295 grooves. Nothing wrong with accuracy, holds 1" groups at 60 yards with the Unique loads, just not enough to hold stability at 100+. With the slow <1500 fps Unique loads I have to flip the sight up and set to 600m for POI on center at 50, I have to move it up to 800m for relatively close to POI on center at 100m. I am trying to get a round that I can hunt with if I want and take advantage of the quick twist without going to jacketed. By the way, loading 42.5 grains of H4895 behind the 205gr Hornady bullets yields 2470fps ave. and cloverleafs them at 100 with sight at point blank.

[Buckshot]

................You're wanting a powder slower then Unique, but going to 4895 has jumped over some of the best. These being 2400, 4227, SR4759, RL7, 4198, and 3031. You can tell I'm a kind of 'old guy' as most of the powders I relate to are either Hercules or IMR :-). Anyway, that's the area you should consider operating in for now. I don't knwo how you feel about it, but a filler like dacron would be good for any of the above. If you do end up trying 4895 again, I'd suggest a 'solid filler' such as a shotshell buffer

If you REALLY want to work with this M95, I'd suggest getting the Lee C338-210-R mould, but finding GC's could be problematic since at Hornady they're NLA. Bummer! Have you checked the OD of the throat of your piece?

http://www.fototime.com/00C73BAA827D746/standard.jpg

This really nice all matching M95 will swallow a cartridge with a .338" sized boolit. Speaks volumns about the chamber neck dimensions too. I've gotten some good groups with mine (the M95 and a M95/34) and I've heard of a few who've reported outstanding results. I can truthfully say however that none of the issues are in the action, but contained within the barrel and it's dimensions.

http://www.fototime.com/3F99F55C9811736/standard.jpg

This a conversion to 30-40 Krag, and it does everything except give milk. All it took was a new barrel.

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

I had a baby on my lap trying to type yesterday. I use the Lee 338 as Rick said, but my favorite is an NEI 330-245. Mine drops around .334+ and I opened a Lee sizer to .332+. Using thew 13.0 Red Dot, ( my go to load, I keep a Lyman 55 permanently set there), I can keep the NEI under 2.5" at 100 yards on a fairly regular basis. Considering the sights and trigger I don't think that's bad. The Lee 329 has been really poor for me. Your barrel specs are far smaller than mine so count yourself lucky.

The 338 checks can be hard to find, but you can order right from Hornady.

I think the 95 is the bet off the shelf surplus hunting rifle ever made. Short, light, powerful, safety is in the right place, sight are adequate. A better rear sight, ala Buckshot, and a piece of tape over the mag well to keep from losing the clips and you're all set.

[Old Time Hunter]

Buckshot, I had Lee open up my mould (C329-205-1R) a tad, that is why mine drop over .330", and yes, when I did the chamber cast I did a chamber OD dimension. It was .3655, whereas the spec calls out .366-.368 nominal. Pretty large diameter chamber for a .329" groove!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/OTH_2006/M95Kar007.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/OTH_2006/M95Kar011.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/OTH_2006/M95Kar010.jpg

[Old Time Hunter]

I had a baby on my lap trying to type yesterday. I use the Lee 338 as Rick said, but my favorite is an NEI 330-245. Mine drops around .334+ and I opened a Lee sizer to .332+. Using thew 13.0 Red Dot, ( my go to load, I keep a Lyman 55 permanently set there), I can keep the NEI under 2.5" at 100 yards on a fairly regular basis. Considering the sights and trigger I don't think that's bad. The Lee 329 has been really poor for me. Your barrel specs are far smaller than mine so count yourself lucky.


Bought over 20 of them in the last year to find three that were at or under .330" groove, plus meeting chamber dimensions. 16 of the ones that did not make my tolerance parameters ran anywhere from .3305" to .334"!!! These are all gone now, sold to others with the knowledge of the slug results. One we cut apart, sliced right in half the long way....just because. The others are mine and I am shooting the "tightest" one, bore wise, but not necessarily chamber wise as the throat on my tightest bore is the largest throat.

[amwdc]

................You're wanting a powder slower then Unique, but going to 4895 has jumped over some of the best. These being 2400, 4227, SR4759, RL7, 4198, and 3031. You can tell I'm a kind of 'old guy' as most of the powders I relate to are either Hercules or IMR :-). Anyway, that's the area you should consider operating in for now. I don't knwo how you feel about it, but a filler like dacron would be good for any of the above. If you do end up trying 4895 again, I'd suggest a 'solid filler' such as a shotshell buffer

If you REALLY want to work with this M95, I'd suggest getting the Lee C338-210-R mould, but finding GC's could be problematic since at Hornady they're NLA. Bummer! Have you checked the OD of the throat of your piece?

http://www.fototime.com/00C73BAA827D746/standard.jpg

This really nice all matching M95 will swallow a cartridge with a .338" sized boolit. Speaks volumns about the chamber neck dimensions too. I've gotten some good groups with mine (the M95 and a M95/34) and I've heard of a few who've reported outstanding results. I can truthfully say however that none of the issues are in the action, but contained within the barrel and it's dimensions.

http://www.fototime.com/3F99F55C9811736/standard.jpg

This a conversion to 30-40 Krag, and it does everything except give milk. All it took was a new barrel.

...............Buckshot
do the clips still work the 30-40krag ? i wonder if a 303 British conversion is also possible

[Buckshot]

do the clips still work the 30-40krag ? i wonder if a 303 British conversion is also possible

http://www.fototime.com/8D145DDB43DD2B5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F2618D4764522E3/standard.jpg

The clips will work just fine with 2 small modifications. In the left photo, on the left is a clip load of 8x56R and on the right a clip is loaded with five 30-40 Krags. You can see that due to the slimmer Krags cartridges there will be some slop, up and down. There isn't enough excess room for the Krag cartridges to fall out of the clip, while simply handleing them. The problem is with how they lay when inserted into the rifle.

Since they're slimmer they'll ride higher (nose up higher) in the clip then the fatter 8x56R's. When pushing the bolt closed the nose will raise a bit more and slam into the breechface. The first and most important modification is shown in the right hand photo (pink lines on the clip). You simply have to smoothly bend the lips of the clip inward, which causes the cartridge to ride lower, plus it keeps the rim from popping out too soon also.

The second mod, isn't a 'Have to' deal and has to do with comments in the first paragraph. That is, looseness of the slimmer rounds in the clip. With the first mod taken care of they feed just fine but will be loose in the clip when out of the rifle. The second mod is similar to the first and is shown in the left photo. Simply bending the lips upward to use up some of that windage in the clip. Use care as the lifter arm has to be able to pass through in order to raise the cartridges as they're stripped and fed.

No boltface work had to be done with the 30-40 and the 303 is a cousin of comparable size, so I see no problems there either. Possibly the best and easiest conversion would be to to Russian 7.62x54R. I would suspect that most any wildcat built off one of these 3 cartridge cases would also function.

.............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Buckshot is right on about this cartridge. When I had mine I used that Lee 338 mould. I will tell you the best bullet and that's the one designed by an old member Oldfeller. Since he had the moulds made at Dan's Mountain Moulds you can probably get one if Dan saved his data. That bullet fit that throat and bore/groove like Steyr designed it. Honestly I didn't mess with the pistol/shotgun powder and used the rifle powder all the ways to the slowest stuff like 860 and 5010 surplus. Believe it or not that round burned the 5010 pretty good. When you load it hot you clip on the heals of a 338-06. Buckshot and I talked about that once and both concluded that the locking lugs on the bolt are massive and the one isn't slotted like on the Mausers, making it even stronger. We both felt that Steyr more then likely used a quality steel in manufacturing them. This is not a go ahead to magnumize it. I based my opinion on chronographing some of the original Nazi ammo and that stuff was plenty hot. I found some old Hornady 338 bullets made for the old 33 Winchester. They were 200 grain flatnoses and weighed very close to the original ammo for the M95. I sized them down some and loaded them until I got close to the same velocity as that Nazi ammo. One hell of a great deer load. I too put a receiver sight on my rifle like Buckshot.

Joe

[singleshotman]

I've never owned one, but from what i read cast bullets are hopeless in these guns because the chamber neck is WAY too big.The bullet upsets to fill the neck and then get swaged down to fit the rifling. This ruins the bullets, too much discorsion, up, then down. I once owned a 7 x57mm Rolling block with the same problem, the case neck expanded .020 upon firing, it would have leaked gas like crazy if it had not been a bottleneck case.I gave up shooting cast bullets in it and used jacketed for the rest of my shooting with it. I finally gave up on it because it was ruining cases too fast.

[StarMetal]

I've never owned one, but from what i read cast bullets are hopeless in these guns because the chamber neck is WAY too big.The bullet upsets to fill the neck and then get swaged down to fit the rifling. This ruins the bullets, too much discorsion, up, then down. I once owned a 7 x57mm Rolling block with the same problem, the case neck expanded .020 upon firing, it would have leaked gas like crazy if it had not been a bottleneck case.I gave up shooting cast bullets in it and used jacketed for the rest of my shooting with it. I finally gave up on it because it was ruining cases too fast.

To the contrary, it's almost like they were designed for cast with the very deep rifling grooves they have. I was eventually able to get mine shooting 7/8 inch groups at 100 yards using that Oldfeller bullet. I believe Buckshot and BassAckwards will agree to how well they handle cast. Oldfeller had a few of us that owned the rifles to take chamber casts and he designed that bullet to fit it. Like other's here have said that Lee 338 shoots pretty darn good from them. I'm sure if you had someone to help you along with loading cast for them you'd like them.

Joe

[Bret4207]

I've never owned one, but from what i read cast bullets are hopeless in these guns because the chamber neck is WAY too big.The bullet upsets to fill the neck and then get swaged down to fit the rifling. This ruins the bullets, too much discorsion, up, then down. I once owned a 7 x57mm Rolling block with the same problem, the case neck expanded .020 upon firing, it would have leaked gas like crazy if it had not been a bottleneck case.I gave up shooting cast bullets in it and used jacketed for the rest of my shooting with it. I finally gave up on it because it was ruining cases too fast.

To the contrary, I think they handle cast just fine! You just have to adapt to the rifles quirks a bit. It's not stuff they teach you in Reloading 101, but it's not rocket science either.

[Andy_P]

I have found Red Dot and Unique to always shoot good groups (but seldom the best) in anything I used them in, but have never had great luck with reduced loads of 4895. I have settled on SR4759 for most of my cast boolit rifle loads. 22.0 grs is an almost universal load, like 13.0 is with Red Dot.

[DanM]

Starmetal is right about how his M95 performed. I Know because I bought it from him. Still have a few of the Oldfeller #1 boolits if someone more knowledgable than me wants to copy the design for some new molds. I would be very interested, and would gladly send samples to a designer for that purpose. I have checked with Dan at Mtn molds, and at this point he cannot remake old designs. I am not sure that the new software would work for this style boolit. Here is a pic, Lee .338" boolit on left, Oldfeller #1 in center, and Oldfeller #2 on right:


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n24/DanM2000/8x56a.jpg

This boolit is a wonderful design for the M95, and considering the intrest in these rifles, it is a design that should not be lost.

[fj3fury]

Can a person lap the lube sizer die to bigger than the .329 and keep it uniform? I've had quite a few sooty case necks and I attribute it to under-sized cast bullets.

[wiljen]

Can a person lap the lube sizer die to bigger than the .329 and keep it uniform? I've had quite a few sooty case necks and I attribute it to under-sized cast bullets.

Yes, I've done this by running bullets coated with Clover compound through the die to open one up by .001 to .005. Depending on which grit you use, it can cut very quickly so run a few coated bullets trough, wash it out and run a bullet to size through then measure.

[fj3fury]

Thank you sir. :-D

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/E5F797678DB6438/standard.jpg

...........These are the slugs I've fired in my M95 & M95/31.
A) Special order Saeco 205 gr .336" Schuetzen FNPB. Actually pretty accurate 50 yds). Velocities 1200 - 1400 fps.
B) Lee 338" 210gr slug
C) RCBS 338" 205 gr
D) Oldfeller #1 (or Frankenstien boolit :-)). Dan @ Mountain Moulds cut this one back not long after he started out and was still doing full on custom moulds.

The 2 boolit's intended for the 338 have been indifferent in my carbines. The plain based slug has produced some very good groups @ 50 yards, but feeding may need a bit of help on occasion. The Oldfeller slug HAS produced the best accuracy at the highest velocities to date. I hasten to add that I've never been able to attain 7/8" @ 100 yards with it, as I've never tried it at that distance.

Possibly if I could get 7/8" at 50 yards I might be tempted to go for broke and see what would happen at 100? :-) These are very fun and powerfull little carbines. I always recall the quote I read, made by a Spanish Republican soldier during the Spanish Civil war (I believe in a Hemingway book). When word came down that they would be getting some Steyr rifles he remarked, " Why would we take those? You can't hit anything with'em!" Or words to that effect, HA!.

..............Buckshot

[DanM]

Buckshot....You don't still have the Oldfeller #1 mold for 8x56r do you? I heard that it got wrecked....

[Buckshot]

Buckshot....You don't still have the Oldfeller #1 mold for 8x56r do you? I heard that it got wrecked....

............Nope. Kelly had Dan ship it to me after Dan decided he wasn't going to mess with that custom stuff anymore. Dan was a mite peeved about what was going on, and that was a LONG time ago. I don't recall the details of exactly what was up with the thing or why Dan was upset. I cast up some slugs and then sent it on it's way back to Oldfeller. BTW, I was NOT the one who wrecked it!:-)

............Buckshot

[jonk]

Whoever said above they tried 15 grains of BULLSEYE- sounds like a good way to kill yourself. I use 5-6 gr of Bullseye sometimes as a plinker and might go 8 or so in a strong 98 action but surely not 15!

[DanM]

I keep hoping that a designer will pick up on this bullet design for the M95. I think that the new MM software won't turn out a boolet of this profile. Not sure who we could get to make the molds. Maybe MiHec could do it....

[StarMetal]

Starmetal is right about how his M95 performed. I Know because I bought it from him. Still have a few of the Oldfeller #1 boolits if someone more knowledgable than me wants to copy the design for some new molds. I would be very interested, and would gladly send samples to a designer for that purpose. I have checked with Dan at Mtn molds, and at this point he cannot remake old designs. I am not sure that the new software would work for this style boolit. Here is a pic, Lee .338" boolit on left, Oldfeller #1 in center, and Oldfeller #2 on right:




http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n24/DanM2000/8x56a.jpg

This boolit is a wonderful design for the M95, and considering the intrest in these rifles, it is a design that should not be lost.

I fooled with that rifle and cartridge quite a bit. My best group at 100 yards with Oldfellers bullet was 7/8ths inch. I loved that first bullet which we called Frankenstein. It shot very well. The second one, which we dubbed Boxcar, shot pretty decent two. Oldfeller hit the nail on the head with these two designs.

I don't see why you couldn't send a bullet or two to a mould maker and have him cut a mould for it.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

It's been done. Mentioned in several threads but I thought I'd update this one as well. BAbore has it listed as the Frankenstein. Go to the Vendor Sponsor and find BRP products. It is on his page.

[Larry Gibson]

Unknown if Old Time Hunter stuck with that bullet or not. If it fit his bore then 4895 would have been an excellent powder to use. The problem was, as I believe Bret mentioned, the charge used was just sloshing around in that big case and not igniting consistently. Had Old Time Hunter started at 30 gr of 4895 and simply used a 3/4 to 1 gr dacron filler and worked up in 1/2 gr increments he probably would have found an excellent load without too much drama involved.

Larry Gibson

[abunaitoo]

I've been playing with my M95 for a few weeks.
Lee 329 mould, but enlarged to .333.
Lee sizer honed out to .331.
Gas checks are 8mm/.32cal.
Lee dies and a Lee factory crimp die made out of a Lee 8x57 die.
Found that the crimp die helps a bunch.
Graf brass.
So far I've tried:
IMR4198
IMR700x
Unique
Red Dot
2400
IMR3031
Blue Dot
Best, most consistane loads so far:
21.0 to 22.0 Blue Dot
18.0 to 20.0 2400
Both get about 1" at 50yds and 2" to 3" at 100yds.
Loads sound high, but primers are fine. Not even close to being flat.
With the trigger as bad as it is, I'm surprised it shoots as good as it does.

[Chris Smith]

I had one a few years ago and used 5744 with the Lee bullet. It shot very well and I didn't have any problems what so ever other than I ran out of ammo too fast.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I had fine results with the Lee 329 bullet, patched up to 337, cases neck sized only, with a converted 7.62 X 54R F/L die set up with a Redding neck bushing, and using a mild roll crimp. Forget medium powders because of the dang case volume being so much, patching is helpful because of the throat, bore and groove problems with that bullet, and a wad (1/4 square TP down hard on the charge) was helpful with powders in the 2400-5744 speed range, again because of case volume.

You can fit a tall Swedish Mauser front sight, and then use the battle sight and the sliding leaf sight too. No opportunities to get a deer for me, but the cast bullet and velocity/accuracy parameters were fine, 3" @ 100, open sights, just make sure of a 50 yard setting too.

BvT

[303Guy]

I tried 35.5gr Varget/AR2208 under a 220gr boolit in my 303 Brit. That's a slower powder than 4895. It worked pretty well. I did use cotton wool as a filler. I won't do that again, now that I know cotton wool can be ignited under certain conditions (it didn't when I used it). I have also tried H4350/AR2209 under 205gr boolits with wheat bran filler and that too works just fine. Pressure is quite mild but consistant from shot to shot - at least it appears to be consistant and the rifle does group with it. I went that route for the slow pressure rise effect. I get higher velocities than with H4227/AR2205 at similar peak pressure but also get more muzzle blast. Load density is 65%. (The wheat bran is slightly compressed over the powder). I have tried grits as a filler - that does raise pressure some but is much easier to get into the case). I would say that Varget would be suitable for the 8x56R with a filler.

[leadman]

303guy, were you affected by the earthquake? Hope everything is ok there.

[303Guy]

Only in so far as my son lives down there in the middle of it. He's fine and so is is dwelling but lots of things smashed he says. JeffinNZ lives down there and I hear he is OK.

I see the 8x57R is actually smaller than the 303 Brit in capacity? so H4350/AR2209 should be a good choice. Same would apply to other powders close in burn rate and density I should emagine.

[azcruiser]

Would be easier is you just went out and got 9 o/z bottle of Trail boss and used it .Works for me
in almost everything .