Marlin 1894 in .44M or .45C

[Marlin Junky]

This question is for owners of Marlin 1894 Cowboys in both the .44Mag and .45Colt. Which of the two guns is more versatile, accurate and easier to develop a wide variety of cast loads for and why? I don't care which is the better Brown Bear stopper. The largest animal either one would probably take would be a Whitetail or Mule Deer from a ground blind or tree stand but it would primarily be a home defense/ranch gun that'll be shot at paper targets, varmints and perhaps an occasional predator. I've been waiting for several years for Marlin to change the .44Mag to a 20" twist but it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon. I would like the gun to shoot accurately to a couple hundred yards just for fun on paper targets.

MJ

P.S. I'm also considering a Cimarron M'92

[Shuz]

I have no experience with the 45 Colt in a Marlin, but I can say my Marlin 1894 with the newer Ballard type rifiling is a great shooter with cast boolits compared to my old Marlin with the Micro-groove bbl!

[JesterGrin_1]

I have a 1894SS Marlin in .44 Mag and I have to say get the .45 COLT lol. I have read a great deal on the subject and the .45 Colt seems to be a better shooter. Now if you can get a better twist in the Puma or Cimarron that might be an option for a .44 Mag as you can load it hotter than a .45 COLT. But also if you like Winchester you might be able to find one in .44 MAG that also shoots great as it has a good twist.

Do not get me wrong I like my .44 Mag but I also like to work on loads and this gun does just that lol.

[winelover]

My Marlin 1894 in 44Mag is my preference for deer hunting in treestands and or ground blinds. I chose the 44 because of the versatility and availability of premium factory fodder if need be. I have a Redhawk in 44 and a Blackhawk in 45LC and load and cast bullets for both. Everything is more readily available for the 44Mag including bullet mould choices. Factory loads for 45LC are ANEMIC. As for accuracy, it's a crap-shoot as far a cast boolits go either way. You have to work at load development---lots of variables.
But, Marlins tend to prefer over sized cast bullets--I use .432 dia boolits. From a carbine, 200 yards is asking a lot---100 yards is more realistic IMO.

Winelover

[BABore]

The 44 mag has too slow of a twist rate (1 in 38) for heavier cast boolits. A few have some luck with it, many don't. I have heard that the 45 Colt has been plagued with oversized chambers. No first hand experience there though. Search around and check it out well. The 45 Colt does have a decent twist rate for all boolits though.

[longhorn]

I have 2 in .45LC, one the 24" and one the 16". Chambers are OK. The 24" will hold a beer can sized group at 200 yards, but I have to shoot at a nice black 18" bull to prove it! OTOH, if deer are the biggest animal on the agenda, accuracy with 300gr heavyweights in the .44 should be a moot point--and as someone has already pointed out, the .44 has lots more factory loads (supposedly) available.

[NHlever]

I love Marlin lever action rifles, and have owned a bunch over the years. The choice between .44 mag, and 45 Colt is a tossup. I've owned both. The 45 shot well but had it's issues with oversized chamber, and chatter marks in the first few inches of the barrel. It leaded badly until I firelapped it. The 44 mag I had was pretty good chamber wise, had a couple of tight spots in the barrel, but worked well for me once I figured out, and found bullets large enough to suit it. Unfortunately Marlin barrel quality has been a bit on the casual side, though functional. Of the two for your uses I would choose the 44 mag. It will do anything you have planned just fine with bullets up to 265 grains, or so, and if you want to play with heavier ones it might just work. I would take a close look through the barrel of the one you are thinking about buying ( another point in the favor of the 44 is that there is generally a larger selection of guns in the stores), and look for tooling marks, chatter, or any other visible things. Ask the store clerk to run a patch through it if necessary. Also, take a look at this: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=760 (I'm referring to the video)

Pretty impressive for a pistol round!

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the replies. I want to be able to use all currently available commercial bullet molds for either the .44 or .45 but most my target loads will incorporate plain base bullets. Would I therefore be better off with the .45 Colt because I understand the Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum is a little too wide in the grooves for today's molds?

According to Cimarron's website, their M92 in .44 Magnum runs .429" in the grooves and .417" across the lands. Can anyone substantiate this? That's a 6 groove, 20" barrel with a 20" twist and .006" high lands... that sounds pretty good assuming the gun is well built and the trigger can be worked on to provide and nice crisp 2# pound pull.

I don't care about factory ammo. My hunting ammo will be loaded with soft gaschecked cast bullets... perhaps hollow pointed.

Thanks,
MJ

MJ

[.45Cole]

I love my .45 (you could probably infer that), but regardless I would get the 'cowboy special' 24" tube. I can keep 230RN in a very small group (never shot paper, but rocks in a shallow from up on top of a cliff proved it's potential) Also I think it was mentioned before, but buy the BALLARD rifling.
---my 45 cents

[EDK]

Glenn Fryxell has an article at lasc.us on MARLIN 1894s in 357-44-45 Colt with a lot of data for each. The 45 looks a lot better than my preferred 44, BUT there could be problems with high performance 45s if you owned a revolver that was unsafe with them. Unfortunately, this is a situation that has a lot of issues connected with it besides the performance of the cartridge and loads....similar to the "hot loads in 38 Special brass" situation. To me, it is another reason to keep my 44 Magnum MARLIN Cowboy rifles...and hope that MARLIN might someday make 24 inch octagon barrels with a more appropriate twist rate for heavier boolits. As far as the barrel interior dimensions, someone who casts should have no problem casting and sizing boolits to the proper size....my assorted VAQUEROS do well with .432 diameter in various boolit designs.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Marlin Junky]

Glenn Fryxell has an article at lasc.us on MARLIN 1894s in 357-44-45 Colt with a lot of data for each. The 45 looks a lot better than my preferred 44, BUT there could be problems with high performance 45s if you owned a revolver that was unsafe with them. Unfortunately, this is a situation that has a lot of issues connected with it besides the performance of the cartridge and loads....similar to the "hot loads in 38 Special brass" situation. To me, it is another reason to keep my 44 Magnum MARLIN Cowboy rifles...and hope that MARLIN might someday make 24 inch octagon barrels with a more appropriate twist rate for heavier boolits. As far as the barrel interior dimensions, someone who casts should have no problem casting and sizing boolits to the proper size....my assorted VAQUEROS do well with .432 diameter in various boolit designs.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

Thanks for the reply,

I have read the Fryxell article a couple times. Unfortunately, he didn't publish any targets nor even mention group size at any given range. Have you tried casting .432" bullets with the current batch of commerically available ferrous molds? I just bought a SAECO #431 (250 grain GC) which is supposed to be designed for the .444 Marlin and am going to send it back to the Factory because it won't cast a bullet over aprox. .430". I've also had similar experience with RCBS 44-250K which is a PB design. GC designs will work if they are slightly undersized and the gascheck is .001" over groove, but PB designs don't have that luxury. I wish I had a bunch of old Lyman/Ideal .44 molds from the early days (circa 1970 and before) but back then a 250-260 .44 was a "heavy for caliber" bullet.

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

Well there are a couple Group Buys going on right now on this forum for the .44 of which will NOT come from LEE. So you should get them in a month or so instead of 1 to 2 years lol. Just some FYI. :)

I am in on the 44/444 Group Buy. No it is not light around 310Gr as a solid with GC and Lube. :)

[Marlin Junky]

I love my .45 (you could probably infer that), but regardless I would get the 'cowboy special' 24" tube. I can keep 230RN in a very small group (never shot paper, but rocks in a shallow from up on top of a cliff proved it's potential) Also I think it was mentioned before, but buy the BALLARD rifling.
---my 45 cents

If it's not too much trouble, please list the molds you work with. How do you know 230RN shoots small groups if you've never shot it on paper? I'd be more convinced if you could post a target.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Well there are a couple Group Buys going on right now on this forum for the .44 of which will NOT come from LEE. So you should get them in a month or so instead of 1 to 2 years lol. Just some FYI. :)

I am in on the 44/444 Group Buy. No it is not light around 310Gr as a solid with GC and Lube. :)

Brass or ferrous?

I've had bad luck with brass but it may have been due to the machining method. Both molds came from the same source and they both warped. One is a 310 grain .44 that's not so bad but it has a real chinchy spure plate and I'm entertaining the idea sending it back to ask for a real sprue plate. Sorry, I'm not going to reveal the source but I bought the molds when the maker was just getting started.

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

BRASS By MiHec. Take a look at some of his molds in the Group Buy section or the section where people try out the group buy molds they are BEAUTIFUL. And sent you a pm Marlin Junky.

[NHlever]

I have a couple of older Lyman molds that do cast boolits large enough to size at .431 anyway. They might not clean up at .432. Lyman is still a family owned business, and not bad to deal with. When a mold cherry is made, it is made somewhat oversized so that it can be sharpened a few times before it has to be scrapped. In the "old days" Lyman also offered undersized molds which were the last ones made before a cherry was tossed. They were marked with a "U", and I have a couple of them. The 311316 U mold casts right at .310 which makes it nice for .30 caliber guns. All this is a long way of saying that perhaps you should give Lyman a call, and see if they could supply .44 molds made with fresh cutting cherrys. I'm willing to bet they would separate them if they knew, or thought there was a demand, just like they used to. Mountain molds, or other custom / semi custom sources are also a good bet. Since the molds are probably cut using CNC lathes, and not cherrys, they can provide a mold to cast any diameter you want. Mountain molds charges very little more than an RCBS these days, or perhaps less in some cases. Good luck with your choice, and I'm sure you will enjoy either.

[NHlever]

BTW, my Winchester 94 trails end in .44 Mag shoots reasonable groups with a variety of bullets / boolits. I haven't had my Marlin 45 Colt cowboy for some time, but I may still have a target, or two kicking around. I'll take a look.

Edit: I didn't find 45 Colt targets, but I did find targets from my son's 44 Marlin.
50 yard targets, (31 total groups measured) average of all groups = 2.4"
Over 4" =2
3-4"=6
2-3"=9
1-2"=11
less than 1"= 3
These were mostly 5 shot groups, but a few were 3 shot.

At 100 yards the gun liked to throw one flier
For the 4 five shot groups I found the average was 4.5"
The best four out of five shots for those groups averaged 2.57"

These groups represent commercial cast bullets, home cast boolits, and jacketed bullets ranging from 210 gr Speer Gold dots to 270 grain Speer sp. The Hornady 265 is in there as are a couple of 240 gr......... Remington I think mostly. The two largest groups were both commercial cast bevel based 240's that probably were .429 dia.

Now I gotta go do what I should have been doing besides playing!

[softpoint]

I have a Winchester 94 .44 magnum now. I've had three Marlin .44mags over the years, and while the winnie is no more accurate than the Marlins, it will stabilize the heavier bullets. One of the bullets I use in this rifle weighs 340 grains cast out my mix, it is Lyman#429649. I have never checked to see what the twist rate in this rifle is, to be honest, because it always shot everything I put in it reasonably well. I see these .44 mag carbines as a 100 yard gun. All of mine, Marlins and Winchester alike have shot between 1 1/2 and 2 inches with reciever sights at 50 yards, but with most loads, accuracy suffers at past 100 yards. Or, should I say, "there are better things to shoot past 100yd.)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg72/Texas-Fred/005.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Maybe I would be better off with a 336 in 45-70. All of my experience with the Marlin 336 is in 30-30 and .35 Remington and all my rifles/carbines are pre-micro groove which has meant relative ease of cast bullet success. I do have a bit of experience with a recently manufactured .444 but only success with gaschecked designs cast a bit harder than Lyman#2 which were pushed hard. I do want good accuracy out to 200 yards or so with PB bullets so I may be barking up the wrong tree. I just assumed the .44M and .45C would be more efficient with PB bullets in the 1300 to 1500 fps range than the .444 and 45-70.

MJ

[NickSS]

I have both calibers in Marlin 94 carbines and both shoot about the same size groups. I have never used a boolit heavier than 240 gr in the 44 mag or 255 gr in the 45 Colt. The boolits I shoot seam to be adequate for deer and black bear as well as wild pigs. I do not use these light handy carbines at ranges beyond a hundred yards or so. When hunting in areas that require longer ranges I carry a rifle with longer range capability.

[softpoint]

If accuracy requirements to 200 yards are of importance, I'd stay away from all of the pistol cartidge carbines. I have a .357 Marlin 1894c, and while Ithink it is a bit more accurate than the .44's I have had experience with, it still comes up between 1 and 2 inches with peep sights at 50 yards. I've owned a closet full of .45/70's and on the average they beat that, staying 1 to 1 1/2 at 50, and beating the pistol cartridge carbines substantially at 100 yds, And both the .444's I've owned would beat the 45/70's slightly on the average, and I never really knew why. Maybe the barrel's a bit thicker? doesn't seem like that would make a difference. These are just the results I have experienced .:coffee:

[jlchucker]

My trapper model 94 in 44 mag most definitely prefers the lyman 429215 bullet, sized .429 and weighing about 215 grains. I've used that bullet in that little rifle since I got it in the 1980's. It doesn't do nearly as well with 240 grain bullets, but I never really tried working up a load for the latter. When I used to use this gun for deer hunting, I tried handloads using a few different 240 grain jacketed bullets. The Winchester HSP's shot very tight groups at 50 yd. Remington hollowpoints and Hornaday bullets didn't do badly either. I had big visions of using the Remington 240 JSP as kind of a modern levergun version of the old 44-40 rounds, but that particular bullet for some reason never grouped better than about 4 or 5 inches at 50 yd. I never figured out why, but the same bullet worked very well with a sabot in a muzzle loader. I don't see anything wrong with using the 215 gr cast bullet for game within 100 yards or so. It shoots straight, and is ballistically a lot hotter than the old 200 grain 44-40's that great grand-daddy shot all kinds of stuff with.

[NHlever]

I had one of those pack rifles in the AE version, and I'm really sorry that I sold it... dumb, dumb! The Trails End that I have now is nice too, but I liked that little Pack rifle. In the Marlin groups I measured above, the Speer 210 GD, and Speer 270 SP shot the best of the jacketed bullets. It wouldn't feed the Lyman 429421 boolits too well, but the next best groups were with the Lyman 429244 gas checked boolit sized to .431. I just bought some commercially cast 429215's and really like them so I'll probably get a mold. That is plenty of weight for deer, etc. I'll be interested to see how they do over a warm charge of H-110. The 210 Speers really cook, and shoot well at just over 2000 fps. I think my load for them is 27.5 grs of H-110 but that is something you would certainly want to work up to although it is a Speer loading manual load.

[45r]

I really like my 45 colt CB and it would be the last Marlin I'd sell.I had 2 custom MTN Molds made for it and they shoot ragged hole groups at 50 yards.I'll get a 45-70 also if I can find one with good wood.

[Irascible]

I have both calibers. For shooting low pressure cowboy loads, I found the 44 had less blowby, thus less blackning of cases and crap flying in your face. For hotter loads, both work fine. The 45 seemed to chamber easier without work on the action. I have not tried Schofield cases. I had to run the 44 over to Marlin to fix the feeding problems it suffered. Still, it will not feed bullets like the 429421 or 310 SSK with their long noses. It does however, now feed bullets with shorter noses just fine, even those hammer head noses and even in 44 spcl cases. There is a larger selection of jacketed and cast bullets in the 44 caliber.

[JesterGrin_1]

Irascible that is odd. I loaded some rounds that have an AOL of 1.55 and did not feed worth the darn as they were so short the case would hit the bottom of the barrel about a 1/4 of an inch back from the Boolit. But when I load my Lee 310Gr with an AOL of 1.620 they feed slicker than snot lol. This is in my1894 Marlin SS in .44 Mag.

[Marlin Junky]

Nobody posted bore/groove diameters for the Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt. How about a list of suitable molds (especially PB designs) for this gun? Can SAECO 015 be used or would the grease grooves be wiped out when sizing to the appropriate diameter?

MJ

[softpoint]

The RCBS plain base 270 grain comes to mind right away marlin junkie, If I recall correctly, that is a .454 mold too, and the marlin might like that slightly larger boolit, if not, it can be sized to .452, no problem you wouldn't lose enough of the grease groove to matter.:Fire:

[Echo]

MJ, Beagling a mold is SO easy (I found out) that I really think you should try it out on your mold that won't cast over .430. Piece of cake, takes maybe 10 minutes, and can be doubled if at first you don't succeed.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, Beagling a mold is SO easy (I found out) that I really think you should try it out on your mold that won't cast over .430. Piece of cake, takes maybe 10 minutes, and can be doubled if at first you don't succeed.

I don't "Beagle" molds that cast round bullets but I do have a couple molds that drop rounder bullets when "Beagled". I used to call it shimming the mold but since I'm posting here I better fall in line and use the accepted lingo. :-D

MJ

[kooz]

I went thru 5 different Marlin 94 Cowboy Classics in .45 Colt, refused shipment of the 6th one and demanded my money back. All of these guns had SUPER rough bores, and would not shoot lead worth a darn, I don't know what the deal was, I have had a few Marlins in the past and they were good guns . I also have an old Rossi 92 in .45 and 2 Winchester trappers in .45, and they shoot excellent, on a good day both Winchesters will shoot groups in the 1-1 1/2"" range @100yds with a scope mounted. The Rossi despite being beat up pretty good and having a less than perfect bore will still shoot excellent, producing goups in the 2-2 1/2" range @ 100yds, it may do better, but that's the best I can shoot with open sights.

[Marlin Junky]

Kooz,

Are you referring to this gun?:

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

Kooz,

Are you referring to this gun?:

MJ

Yes he is Cowboy = CB :)


But I still like my Marlins. :) .357 Mag .44 Mag 45-70 THUMP THUMP THUMPER lol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0002-1.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Yes he is Cowboy = CB

I'm aware of that but the 45CB has been around for quite awhile and used to come with a 24" barrel.

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

357 Mag 100 yards. Two Groups top two and bottom three pulled the one in the Bull lol. Each Square on the Target is 1"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/Marlin357.jpg

45-70. 100 Yards. Bottom two were to set the sights and top three for Group the day before going Deer hunting. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0005.jpg


It is the 45-70 and if I were you I would stick with the 45-70 and not the 450 Marlin as you have found Brass is easy to get.

The main reason the 450 was made was to keep people from putting HOT rounds that will work in the Marlin and other strong actions into the old type of 45-70's and blowing them up.

And yes they did make them in the 24" and now the 20" length.

The 45-70 Cowboy is 26"

[kooz]

Kooz,

Are you referring to this gun?:

MJ

Yep, that's the one