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View Full Version : Paper Patch, the .458 Win Mag, and a great day at the range



Southern Son
06-28-2009, 03:35 AM
Well, I finally got the guts to try the PP loads I have been fooling around with in my .458 Win Mag onto actual paper targets. The load is 45 grains of AR2206H (Not sure but I think it is H4895 in the US), CCI standard LR primer and a Winchester Case.

The projectile is a 525 grain RN cast from a CBC (Australian company) 459550 mold. When the mold was cut for me, I had the maker shorten the boolit so it weighed in at 525 grains rather than 550 grains. The Boolit is cast 50% clip on WW and 50% stick on WW. Don't have a hardness tester, sorry. I sized the boolits through a Lee .452 push through die, then give two wrapps of tracing paper (rolled on wet and let air dry) which brings the boolit back up to ,459-.460. I don't size them after the paper goes on.

I have tried to upload a photo of the boolits and one of the target, but after 45 minutes it failed. :confused:I will try again later. Suffice to say that I was stoked with how they grouped. Range was 50 meters, the first group was three rounds (took 2 rounds to get on the paper) into .750 of an inch, and the second shot straight after that went .685 for five rounds. Avg Velocity was 1233fps.

I have had some leading in the barrel after shooting these PP round, however, it is minimal and I believe that it came from the last 4 rounds fired. The cases on those round were longer and I think that the crimp cut through the patch (when I seated the boolit, I noticed the difference and marked the primers to shoot them last). :mrgreen::drinks::-D:drinks::mrgreen:

303Guy
06-28-2009, 04:19 AM
That is great! :drinks:

Ummmm.... why do you need to crimp if I may ask? I have read on this forum that crimpimg a PP boolit is a no-no. I don't crimp my 303 Brit but then I don't have any real range results yet either. (One day soon I will). It seems to me that with PP'ng, there is always going to be a 'right' way for each gun. Still, I am surprized that tracing paper can be cut through. The stuff I have is so flippin' tough!:mrgreen:

Southern Son
06-29-2009, 04:45 AM
I don't like crimping them in and if everything else is right, then I won't. Unfortunately, the cases I am using are all a bit long in the tooth and some of them have no neck tension, even after full length resizing. As I find those cases, I usually chuck them out, but I can only find them when I go to seat a boolit, by then there is at the least a primer in the case and I don't really want to waste anything. So I mark the primer, crimp the boolit in, then use it last (hoping that the lead won't really get mashed into the bore like it would if I were to fire several rounds after it). After I shoot them, the dodgy cases get the big "A".

The tracing paper is fairly tough. I have noticed that after it dries, it seems to harden. I am not getting the confetti effect after firing, the only peice of the patch that survives is the bit wrapped over the base, the rest of it just seems to vapourise. Poof, gone. It must be getting to the end of the barrel before breaking up though. If I don't put any crimp on any of the rounds, then I can fire 20 rounds and have not even a hint of leading in the bore.

Southern Son
06-29-2009, 05:19 AM
Trying to put up some photos.

This is the boolit. On the left a sized boolit, the middle a wrapped boolit and the end is one that I recovered from the backing mound.

14417

This is the group, 5rounds at 50 meters.

14418

Hope this worked..........

303Guy
06-29-2009, 07:00 AM
Wow! Very nice.:drinks:

I cannot say what works and what doesn't but what I do is patch up until the boolit is a tight hand fit in an unsized neck. My understanding is that the patched boolit should indeed be a hand press fit but I don't know about the sizing part. My rifle allows that but there is a little swaging taking place as the boolit enters the the throat.

I actually suspect that I may be bending my boolits on ignition due to their length and softness and the pressure I am driving them with. Theoretically, the pressure should stay low enough initially so that won't happen. I'm using AR2209.

Anyway, the important thing is that you are having success!:drinks:
(My success will come eventually - specially when I get motivated by successes like yours!):-D

docone31
06-29-2009, 08:09 AM
You are not getting confetti because your load is too light! Especially for a .458.
You might go a little bigger in diameter, and up the charge.
Looks good so far.

pdawg_shooter
06-29-2009, 08:10 AM
I use a 430gr PP bullet over 80gr of H335 in my 458. Works great!

303Guy
06-29-2009, 03:14 PM
I am not getting the confetti effect after firing, the only peice of the patch that survives is the bit wrapped over the base, the rest of it just seems to vapourise. Poof, gone.
You are not getting confetti because your load is too light!docone31, are you saying the 'confetti' effect becomes visible at higher loads and velocities?

It amazes me that the tough tracing paper can blow away or 'confetti-ise'!

docone31
06-29-2009, 03:38 PM
No, light is both in diameter, and charge.
Even with smokeless powder, there is some growth in the bore on firing. Not obturation as found with black powder, but there is some.
He is getting a good group. +.0005 and a good charge and there will be confetti!

Southern Son
06-30-2009, 04:58 AM
Docone31, I don't know if I want to up the charge too much. I loaded some GG boolits (same boolit, just unsized and lubed with Lyman Moly) with what the book claimed was a "Starting Load". The recoil was horrid. I am not really that recoil shy but I don't like firing things that beat the hell out of me. My Spagetti Hiwall is 45/70 and I can launch 535 grain boolits out of that all day at 1175fps. The .458 Win Mag with the above PP load wasn't too bad, but the load that the book said was a starting load tore the scope and rings off the rifle, bending the scope tube in the process and left me punch drunk. Some of the other blokes in the club fired those "Starter Loads" and handed the rifle back to me after only one round.

On the sizing side of things, I was thinking that I might try sizing to .453, but I don't want to lap or polish the Lee .452 die. I am worried that if I do that and the rifle don't like .453, I will have stuffed the .452 die and I wil have to go find another one (which ain't cheap here in Oz). I have a mate with a lathe and I think that he would be happy to make a .453 sizing die, but he has been away quite alot the last couple of months.

On the confetti front, if the rifle keeps shooting the way it was, I don't care about not getting any. I don't know where the rest of the paper is going. Like I said, I have found the bit that is wrapped over the base heaps of times, but never anything else.

303Guy
06-30-2009, 06:33 AM
The recoil was horrid.I'm not into heavy recoil so much myself. I don't want the rifle to move when I fire it. I don't notice any recoil with my suppressed 303-25 at all and I don't remember the recoil from my No4 which is semi-suppressed. That's how I like it - no sight picture movement and no noticeable (or memorable) recoil. (The 303-25 is a marvelous caliber - Ozzie invention).:drinks:

windrider919
07-01-2009, 01:43 AM
I have been shooting 458 for years and am on my 4th custom rifle. People keep seeing me shoot one and see the accuracy and offer me so much money I can't refuse. Then I have to build another rifle! If you will search some of my previous posts you will find how I am doing with PP. There is too much to put here. I find 458 is an all-around rifle, just look at some of my loads!

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/Some458WMloads002.jpg

458 loaded w/ Windrider PP bullet; Speer 350gr; hornady .451 XTP 300 gr PP to .459; Hornady .357 XTP 158gr in 45 sabot; shotshell loaded using .410-3" load shot n powder

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould159.jpg
Loaded 458 round; a naked windrider bullet and PP bullets showing base

Note; it is normal to NOT get confetti with these rifles. also, please see my posts about proper bullet fit in 458 std chambers and high velocity [1800 +] loads that retain accuracy. I am shooting what I considser a mild load of 59gr of H4895 using a LRM primer. Two wads under bullet, first in a PE +-.030 milk jug material wad then a 1/4" foam from a butchers meat tray then load the bullet without crimp. The bullet is .463 as PPed, I just bell the case a little and seat the bullet then 'taper crimp the bell back straight. The bullet can not be moved by hand. This load produces 3/4 inch groups at 100yds and will penetrate over 30 inches into soaking wet newspaper.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/WindRider_PP-455-460-NP.jpg
Windrider PP bullet model

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/WindRider_PP-455-460-NP_Sketch.jpg
Windrider PP bullet design sketch

Digital Dan
07-01-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't like crimping them in and if everything else is right, then I won't. Unfortunately, the cases I am using are all a bit long in the tooth and some of them have no neck tension, even after full length resizing. As I find those cases, I usually chuck them out, but I can only find them when I go to seat a boolit, by then there is at the least a primer in the case and I don't really want to waste anything. So I mark the primer, crimp the boolit in, then use it last (hoping that the lead won't really get mashed into the bore like it would if I were to fire several rounds after it). After I shoot them, the dodgy cases get the big "A".

The tracing paper is fairly tough. I have noticed that after it dries, it seems to harden. I am not getting the confetti effect after firing, the only peice of the patch that survives is the bit wrapped over the base, the rest of it just seems to vapourise. Poof, gone. It must be getting to the end of the barrel before breaking up though. If I don't put any crimp on any of the rounds, then I can fire 20 rounds and have not even a hint of leading in the bore.


If your cases have no neck tension, being "long in the tooth" as you put it, you should anneal them. Common problem with work hardened brass and a common but very effective solution. No change in die dimension will make hardened brass conform to needed specs.

Roll crimping paper patch bullets will almost guarantee bore leading. Try a taper crimp if necessary, a gentle one at that. See the previous paragraph...if your brass is of proper hardness you will have proper neck tension and likely will not need to crimp. Check this by firing the gun with a patched load in the magazine...then verify the cartridge OAL. If it has not changed, you're good to go.

You need to revisit the dimensions on your patches a bit. Longer. See your photo and the gap caused by the patch being too short.

The confetti thing is something I've never seen to NOT occur with large bore guns and lead bullets, smokeless or black powder propelled, that with tracing or onionskin paper applied as a wet patch. Whether or not it is an objective is a moot point if accuracy is adequate.


The .458 Win Mag with the above PP load wasn't too bad, but the load that the book said was a starting load tore the scope and rings off the rifle, bending the scope tube in the process and left me punch drunk.

Something ain't right about that, you need to figure out what. There is nothing right about the results you posted as it indicates grossly excessive pressure levels. 500+ grains from a .45-70 at ~1800 fps will not do this in a lever gun, nor is the recoil abusive. It's not an all day bench load, granted, but it will not hurt you or the gun. Load: 510 grain MPS, approximately 33.0 grains of RX7, Marlin 1895 CB. Whatever occurred with your combination is bizarre.

cajun shooter
07-02-2009, 09:01 AM
I was in the process of putting out this post when I read Digital Dan's. I think that is your problem as he says and you need to anneal those cases. I have for years used the method of annealing in a pan of water and tipping over the case when the mouth reaches a red color. After talking with Kenny Wasserburger I started doing it different with his way. I think his way is better and you don't work harden the brass. He does this in a darkened room and with a propane torch. He dumps them in a box to not bend the mouths and lets them air cool. I just let mine fall onto a drying rack. Try it

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 10:55 AM
Let me ask a really stupid question here!

Why???....are you guys using GG bullets for PP instead of some like this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_908373a5.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=908373a5.jpg)

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 11:18 AM
Let me ask a really stupid question here!

Why???....are you guys using GG bullets for PP instead of some like this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_908373a5.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=908373a5.jpg)

Part of the problem with Smokeless is that it doesn't provide the bump up in diameter that Blackpowder does. One can have patches slip on the boolit body. Knurling the boolit body or downsizing a GG boolit stops that. Two different approaches dependent on conditions.

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 12:06 PM
Nope...don't believe I'll buy that!

If the correct size 'smooth-sided' bullet is used and patched up to groove-diameter it won't so-call slip! Especially if it's wet patched and dried on a warming plate!! The patch will shrink somewhat ensuring a tight fit. But if rolled correctly...the wet patch is tight even before drying down.

Whatever....blows your skirt up!!:drinks::mrgreen:

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 12:11 PM
Nope...don't believe I'll buy that!

If the correct size 'smooth-sided' bullet is used and patched up to groove-diameter it won't so-call slip! Especially if it's wet patched and dried on a warming plate!! The patch will shrink somewhat ensuring a tight fit. But if rolled correctly...the wet patch is tight even before drying down.

Whatever....blows your skirt up!!:drinks::mrgreen:
Believe whatever you want, but you haven't tried it, have you. Supposition from a BP shooter................................

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Call it whatever you want!

Fortunately I listened to other folks that had more experience than I did and I learned how to PP THE RIGHT WAY!!

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 01:46 PM
Fortunately I listened to other folks that had more experience than I did and I learned how to PP THE RIGHT WAY!! For Blackpowder only, for the way you use it........................ that doesn't make you an expert on the right way regarding anything else. There are a lot of things going on with PP that don't involve BP. This is the "Paper Patching forum", not the Blackpowder Paper Patching forum.

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 02:56 PM
If you weren't quite so dense....you'd have read my post and seen that I mentioned ....GROOVE DIAMETER; there was NO MENTION of BP! Bullets are normally patched to GROOVE DIAMETER with the use of SMOKELESS POWDER but apparently that shot right over your head!! GG bullets DO NOT have to be used for PP with smokeless; a smooth sided bullet will work quite well....WITHOUT all the INDUCED DRAG of the grooves!!

END OF COMMO!!

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 03:10 PM
If you weren't quite so dense....you'd have read my post and seen that I mentioned ....GROOVE DIAMETER; there was NO MENTION of BP! Bullets are normally patched to GROOVE DIAMETER with the use of SMOKELESS POWDER but apparently that shot right over your head!! GG bullets DO NOT have to be used for PP with smokeless; a smooth sided bullet will work quite well....WITHOUT all the INDUCED DRAG of the grooves!!

END OF COMMO!!

Yes, I did see it. Your version of quite well and mine differ quite a lot. You probably should read what the NRA publications have had to say about your method. Enlightening reading. I for one try things to be sure they work before I repeat them to another. Something you might try yourself.

DLCTEX
07-02-2009, 04:37 PM
FPMIII: I find your eliteist attitude and abrasive manner offensive and unworthy of the family attitude of this forum. I don't have a dog in this fight except a love for the forum and the friendly atmosphere found here MOST of the time. It's OK to disagree, just don't be dogmatic and abrasive, please sir. DALE

303Guy
07-02-2009, 06:38 PM
Ummmm.... perhaps I can throw some light here. Smooth sided boolits is all I can make a mold for, so, that's what I've got. I have been trying out all sorts of different ways of patching and what I can say is that grooving is not necessary to hold the patch. I have tried patching above the gas check - this is on a boolit that tapers toward the nose. That does produce some movement of the patch between the case and the throat entry. But a normal patch which is folded or twisted over the boolit base does not move. Nor does a patch wrapped flush with the base when there are lube grooves and the patch shrinks tightly into those grooves. I have not tried a grooved boolit without a g/c rebate. I have tested strong tracing paper and note pad paper and those seem to be the same except that tracing paper does not shred as readily.

As for boolits bumping up, well, I'm not so sure. The only possible reason why a black powder boolit might bump up more than the identical boolit with smokeless is that black powder reaches enough pressure before the boolit has moved out of the forcing cone to bump it up there. Other than that, surely paper to casting presure is a function of fit. The paper gets compressed into the casting so it will be tight anyway. However, grooved boolits might suite someone who sizes post patching. My boolits are tapered so the patch does not move during sizing. I would speculate it's about the patching method one chooses as to the requirements of the prime casting. At the end of the day, both boolit designs seem to work just fine for the folks using them!:drinks:

Perhaps a small 'internet competition' could be arranged to settle the 'argument'?:Fire:
All we would have to do is post our results.
As for me, I have both my tapered, straight sided castings and Lee lubed and g/c design boolits so I am unbiased. (Just like I am unbiased as to the greatness of the Lee Enfield rifle![smilie=1:) :mrgreen:

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 06:56 PM
At the end of the day, both boolit designs seem to work just fine for the folks using them! Col. Harrison from the NRA wrote a article on the design and tests that led to the two Lyman 30 cal. PP boolits. Give it a read. You will probably find that he had a lot of trouble with accuracy with the smooth sided boolits. When you get your smooth boolits shooting like pdawg shooter, among others, you tell us how you did it.

Perhaps a small 'internet competition' could be arranged to settle the 'argument'? I proposed that in an earlier thread, specifically to the fellow above, without any response. The BP guys know what a smokeless shooter can do to them and have said as much in posts here. He has already heard what I can do also. The positions could change with PP at long range also, something i've already admitted to. That is where BP can shine with PP, but probably not against naked boolits.
All we would have to do is post our results.

303Guy
07-02-2009, 07:14 PM
When you get your smooth boolits shooting like pdawg shooter, among others, you tell us how you did it.Hee hee! Well, let me put it this way, I am sure hoping I can get them to work! If I don't I will be forced to buy a mold as I cannot make a grooved one![smilie=1: The problem with that is tailoring it to suite my paeticular gun - I think.:mrgreen:

Could you post a link to the article by Col. Harrison? :drinks:

45 2.1
07-02-2009, 07:28 PM
Could you post a link to the article by Col. Harrison? :drinks:

Wolfe Publishing put out a compilation of Handloader articles that covered a 20 year or so span. It is a softback book and has a grey cover. Maybe someone can scan it for you.

Digital Dan
07-02-2009, 07:43 PM
My version of quite well is sub MOA with smooth sided patched bullets, be they driven by smokeless or black. The different powders require a little different geometry in relation to the bore/groove dimensions, that is all. I don't have issues with those that choose to shoot GG bullets with patches but there is no reason to do so if the homework is done before the fact. Of course, it you have the mould already there is no real reason to not use GG bullets for whatever purpose you wish, including PP.

In addition, I'm unaware of any working load within reasonable bounds of what a given cartridge is intended for with smokeless powder that will not obturate alloys appropriate for paper patch shooting. Squib or very reduced loads may not do so, but in my experience there is no reason to not do that with paper patched smooth sided bullets.

How I do it with smokeless and smooth bullets: Bullet diameter at or perhaps .0005" over bore. Wrapped to groove diameter or up to .001" greater with onionskin, pattern paper or tracing paper an necessary, all wet patched and air dried. Patch is twisted and tucked for bullets with a cavity in the base, otherwise it overhangs the base by about 1/8" and is folded under while wet. The bullets sit on their base while drying. After drying they are lubed by hand with 50/50 beeswax/vaseline. The cases are slightly flared, loaded and a mild taper crimp is applied. I do not size bullets, preferring the proper dimension as cast or swagged. Loads that generate significant pressure usually get a card wad under the bullet of about .060" thickness and most smokeless loads are slightly compressed. My experience is somewhat limited by cartridge diversity, not shooting volume. .44 Mag, rifle (conicals and round balls) and revolver, .405 Winchester, .45-70, .40-40 Maynard.

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 07:44 PM
FPMIII: I find your eliteist attitude and abrasive manner offensive and unworthy of the family attitude of this forum. I don't have a dog in this fight except a love for the forum and the friendly atmosphere found here MOST of the time. It's OK to disagree, just don't be dogmatic and abrasive, please sir. DALE

Dale

I respect your right to your opinion!

Call it eliteist or whatever....I wrote just exactly what I was thinking and I don't beat around the bush!!

I'll make no apology for what I wrote!

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 07:52 PM
Ummmm.... perhaps I can throw some light here. Smooth sided boolits is all I can make a mold for, so, that's what I've got. I have been trying out all sorts of different ways of patching and what I can say is that grooving is not necessary to hold the patch. I have tried patching above the gas check - this is on a boolit that tapers toward the nose. That does produce some movement of the patch between the case and the throat entry. But a normal patch which is folded or twisted over the boolit base does not move. Nor does a patch wrapped flush with the base when there are lube grooves and the patch shrinks tightly into those grooves. I have not tried a grooved boolit without a g/c rebate. I have tested strong tracing paper and note pad paper and those seem to be the same except that tracing paper does not shred as readily.

As for boolits bumping up, well, I'm not so sure. The only possible reason why a black powder boolit might bump up more than the identical boolit with smokeless is that black powder reaches enough pressure before the boolit has moved out of the forcing cone to bump it up there. Other than that, surely paper to casting presure is a function of fit. The paper gets compressed into the casting so it will be tight anyway. However, grooved boolits might suite someone who sizes post patching. My boolits are tapered so the patch does not move during sizing. I would speculate it's about the patching method one chooses as to the requirements of the prime casting. At the end of the day, both boolit designs seem to work just fine for the folks using them!:drinks:

Perhaps a small 'internet competition' could be arranged to settle the 'argument'?:Fire:
All we would have to do is post our results.
As for me, I have both my tapered, straight sided castings and Lee lubed and g/c design boolits so I am unbiased. (Just like I am unbiased as to the greatness of the Lee Enfield rifle![smilie=1:) :mrgreen:

303Guy

Thanks! Seems as if you're the only poster here that rendered and answer to the question I asked!!

bcp477
07-02-2009, 07:59 PM
Here we go again. I concur 45 2.1....with what you've said. I also will add that why the h$## do we always have to have the elitist attitude from the BP guys ?? What the f is up with that ? So you guys think that because you shoot BP.....or because you shoot replica "old style" rifles....or whatever.... that you know it ALL ? I can't fathom the reason (or reasons)..... but it seems to keep happening. A technical discussion is just that - there is no reason to cop an attitude if someone disagrees with you - nor is there any justification to pretend to be an "expert" in all areas of PP, if you do not in fact PARTICIPATE in all areas of PP (smokeless, as well as BP). To do so is dishonest and misleading. For example, I myself shoot PP with smokeless ONLY.....and ONLY in ONE particular rifle. So, I will NEVER assert to anyone that I know the ins and outs of PP for all types. I have NO experience with BP - so I would NEVER presume to advise anyone on ANY aspect of BP shooting. Why the heck would anyone act differently ? I can only imagine that such a person would be either patently dishonest, or simply have an over-sized ego in constant need of massaging....or both.

Do please get it straight, gentlemen (and you know who you are) - NO one owes you ANYTHING, including smooching your backsides, just because you shoot BP- PP...... just as the SAME can be said for smokeless PP shooters (and everyone else, for that matter). We are all " in the same boat". NONE of us are omniscient - PERIOD.

Can't we all just get along ...... and do without the BS ???

RMulhern
07-02-2009, 08:18 PM
Here we go again. I concur 45 2.1....with what you've said. I also will add that why the h$## do we always have to have the elitist attitude from the BP guys ?? What the f is up with that ? So you guys think that because you shoot BP.....or because you shoot replica "old style" rifles....or whatever.... that you know it ALL ? I can't fathom the reason (or reasons)..... but it seems to keep happening. A technical discussion is just that - there is no reason to cop an attitude if someone disagrees with you - nor is there any justification to pretend to be an "expert" in all areas of PP, if you do not in fact PARTICIPATE in all areas of PP (smokeless, as well as BP). To do so is dishonest and misleading. For example, I myself shoot PP with smokeless ONLY.....and ONLY in ONE particular rifle. So, I will NEVER assert to anyone that I know the ins and outs of PP for all types. I have NO experience with BP - so I would NEVER presume to advise anyone on ANY aspect of BP shooting. Why the heck would anyone act differently ? I can only imagine that such a person would be either patently dishonest, or simply have an over-sized ego in constant need of massaging....or both.

Do please get it straight, gentlemen (and you know who you are) - NO one owes you ANYTHING, including smooching your backsides, just because you shoot BP- PP...... just as the SAME can be said for smokeless PP shooters (and everyone else, for that matter). We are all " in the same boat". NONE of us are omniscient - PERIOD.

Can't we all just get along ...... and do without the BS ???

bcp477

Elitist attitude?? Seems to me that folks are rather 'thin skinned' here because I asked a simple question "Why are you using grease groove bullets for paper patching?" along with a comment that smooth sided bullets without grooves offer less induced drag! Then Doc 'what's his face' comes back at me with something about BP!! I didn't mention BP in my question! PERIOD! I wanted to know the 'thinking' behind grooved bullets with PP!! 303Guy seemed to be the ONLY POSTER HERE than wanted to render an answer!!

And this forum on Paper Patching doesn't read SMOKELESS PAPER PATCHING rather...PAPER PATCHING which would include BLACKPOWDER SHOOTERS!!

303Guy
07-02-2009, 08:26 PM
Thanks 45 2.1.


Can't we all just get along ......I trust that the bantering is all in good fun? I don't mind the BP folks taking the upper stand - they deserve it!:drinks:
Just as long as it's all in fun!:Fire::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Nrut
07-03-2009, 01:06 AM
FPMIII
I can't speak for the other smokeless PP shooters here but "drag" is not an issue with me at hunting ranges.....
If I decide to shoot LR (and I may) I would put some study into smooth sided PP boolits...
I have just started PP and I have a bunch of GG molds, so it is more cost effective to use those molds for non LR shooting...
Have you ever shot PP with smokeless?
Mic

RMulhern
07-03-2009, 01:24 AM
FPMIII
I can't speak for the other smokeless PP shooters here but "drag" is not an issue with me at hunting ranges.....
If I decide to shoot LR (and I may) I would put some study into smooth sided PP boolits...
I have just started PP and I have a bunch of GG molds, so it is more cost effective to use those molds for non LR shooting...
Have you ever shot PP with smokeless?
Mic

PP with smokeless??

Smokeless powder doesn't work too well in cases such as the .45/110 or 50/90 so the answer to your question is NO!

But I don't have an axe to grind with folks that do!:castmine::drinks:

windrider919
07-03-2009, 02:52 AM
I shoot a lot of 458 win Mag which is 2.5" case length, for example: 45-70 = 2.1"; 45-90 = 2.4"; 45-100 = 2.6".

I do shoot BP in it on occasion but mainly I am a smokeless shooter. I have had several 458s down through the years because to me it is the all around rifle. I have learned that if you are shooting lower than max velocities it is a little over capacity but that can be compensated for. I have learned all about the varoius fillers, what works and what does not. And what is not safe because some fillers can cause dangerous pressures. I have experimented with wads to both seal the bore and to take up empty space in the case to achieve a safe and accurate load. I have also owned and shot various BPCR incarnations using all the above plus 45-110. Yes it is easy to fill one of those cases with BP, almost a no brainer. But getting that cavernous empty space to work with smokeless is just what we reloaders strive for, a challenge!

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/Some458WMloads002.jpg
Notice the cartridge to the left. It is one of my old 45-100 loads which shot quite well with smokeless and a PE flake filller (shotgun shell pellet buffer). Got better accuracy with smokeless than I ever did with BP.

windrider919
07-03-2009, 03:12 AM
Previously it was stated that "smooth sided bullets without grooves offer less induced drag". Well, that is true but just how much drag are we talking here? There are not to many BC tables for cast bullets vs the J-bullets but I have a friend who is an aeronautical engineer. So I called him to get his opinion ( remember, opinions are like a**holes, everybodys got one) and he said, after getting back to me after checking on the subject that the nose shape has the majority effect on drag and that the presence or absence of grooves on the side of the bullet might make a point or so difference. He also said that it would only show up at extremely long ranges like 800yds and up. Since few of us shoot at such ranges I think it is not a topic to fight over.

Personally, when I got into PP I found my accuracy was frankly disappointing. I was using all the BP rules as laid out by Paul Mathews and others but I just could not get good groups. Then other PP smokeless shooters taught me what does work. And one thing I found right off is that having grooves on a bullet shooting smokeless gave BETTER accuracy than the smooth sided ones. So, NOT TO GORE ANYONE'S SACRED COW; to me, 'Accuracy beats induced drag hand down'.

I've said nuf...................

303Guy
07-03-2009, 03:51 AM
... one thing I found right off is that having grooves on a bullet shooting smokeless gave BETTER accuracy than the smooth sided ones.I was hoping it would be the other way around!:roll: Oh well. Might I ask whether you tried knurled straight sides? (I get the impression that grooved boolits might be a good choice because of reduced boolit distortion. The best I can do right now is a comparison between knurled and un-knurled). I am finding that my Lee boolits don't fit too well patched or unpatched. I'll be testing them anyway. But they may work or not for different reasons.

:drinks:

windrider919
07-03-2009, 12:29 PM
Yes I tried knurling and it too worked better than smooth sided bullets. Two problems I had were: 1) That it made the bullet oversize which required sizing down. I am attempting to simplify and remove steps like lubing. Knurling added two, to knurl and then to size. 2) Additionally, some of the points of the knurls poked through the paper after sizing. Hmmm....Lead touching barrel, kind of defeats the purpose of PP. I did not get any visible lead fouling in the 25 knurled rounds I fired, but....

I guess there was another problem with knurling which was my knurling tools wheels are .300 thick and I was trying to knurl the patch contact / bore riding area which is over 3/4" long. It actually took two trips into the knurler to do the job. Two too many for me.

About this time I also stopped twisting my patch tails on the flat based bullets and started using a wad stack under the bullet and tightened up groups even more.

pdawg_shooter
07-03-2009, 01:08 PM
I have had and used 7 moulds for smooth sided bullets. I have sold all of them and replaced them with standard grooved bullets. These have out performed smooth bullets in every case. They hold the paper better, hold a little extra lube, and are easier to patch.

303Guy
07-03-2009, 05:36 PM
That is interesting. Thank you both. Mmmm... I shall be re-evaluating the direction to take. But for fun, I think I'll try smooth sides just to see what they do for me. Unfortunately, my Lee casting pot died when I decided to do some more casting! (Element went open circuit).

My knurling is very light so it may work differently and there is something else I played with that may make a difference.

Another difference in my boolits that might play a role is the taper.


About this time I also stopped twisting my patch tails on the flat based bullets and started using a wad stack under the bullet and tightened up groups even more.I have always wanted to 'wad' my boolits. Would you mind explaining how you do yours, windrider919?

windrider919
07-03-2009, 11:22 PM
I can not afford to buy store bought wads so once again I had to make my own. I read about all the various materials used and started experimenting. Plastic wads were said to seal the bore behind the bullet. what is sold is .030 and .060 PolyEthylene [PE] which is the same thing as translucent plastic milk jugs are made of. Waxed felt, well I never liked that old western hat any way. Hard card came from paper tablet back or for even better I went to the local frame shop and got their picture border scraps. I even tried making wads out of roll linolium! Cork [1/16"] from the auto parts store, 5.00 bought me a 12" X 36" piece that will make a lifetime supply. And finally, because I needed light weight filler wad I tried the styrofoam trays from the meat department. I found the yellow, thick, 'family' size trays were about 3/16" thick.

I made a punch with the cutting size .460 and in one evening watching a movie I made thousands. Straight inside with the bevel on the outside it is really just a piece of pipe. The wads stack up inside until they overflow out the top. Or I take a rod and push them out when the resistance is too much and it interferes with clean cutting of the next wad. With the store bought price being $18.99 per 1K I saves myself several hundred dollars.

The felt wads I dropped into molten bullet lube (homeade of course, I bought 35 lbs of bees wax for $25.00 last year at the local bee keeper as a base) and dipped n drained them on screen wire. I don't use them for smokeless but do for BP.

When I load, for example my bullet which weighs 460gr with H4895 using a 50gr charge it leaves about +-.80 air space between seated bullet and top of the powder. I found that as repeatedly written in multiple sources I got the best accuracy when the powder was all the way back against the base n primer and there was little airspace in the case. I will not discuss Dacron of which I do use because it is talked to death in other threads about fillers. So in accuracy testing I eventually found my 458 likes: in order into the case, a cardboard wad against the powder, a PE wad and then the remaining space filled with the foam wads. If I have less space I first drop the foam wad(s) then the cardboard wad. I always use the .030 PE wad, even if the case is full {to seating depth} of powder.

I think wads only work in (some) straight walled cases for some reason. I tried wads in several bottle necked cartridges and accuracy suffered badly. I tried in pistol cases like .41M n .44M n 45Colt and they did not seem to do much to help. But in 458 with PP bullets my groups lost 1/2" average by using them. If you are getting 3" or 5" groups at 100yds than so what but when you drop from 1 1/2" to 1" then it is something to care about. and thats why I use a wad for all my PP loads.

NOTE: WADS DO NOT WORK WITH TWISTED TAIL PP BULLETS unless they are hollow base. And if you have a lumpy base patch on a flat base bullet the wad will cock and throw the bullet 'who knows where'. Use common sense.

303Guy
07-04-2009, 05:29 AM
Thanks for that windrider919 - much appreciated!

I like cotton wool as a filler/'wad' just because it seems nice.:roll: It does a marvelous job of cleaning my bore when used as a cleaning wad plus it holds the powder in place, but alas it can also burn, although that only happened to me once. (Once is all it takes to set a farmers field on fire! So... ) Now I have some wool wad samples which look like will do the same job (kindly sent to me by JeffinNZ. I haven't figured out what causes the cotton to burn - most of the time there is no sign of heat on the residues!?

windrider919
07-05-2009, 04:01 AM
of course if I was an evil mean male whose mother was not married to my father I might tell you that the way to totally consume the cotton is to soak it in nitric acid the wash the nitric out with water, dry and use. But I would not really do that, because then you would be making nitrocellulose or as the British loaded into the WWI 303s, guncotton. Make a real big boom combined with regular powder.

But I did hear of people making blanks by soaking the cotton used as a top containment wad in potassium nitrate to make it burn in the barrel instead of shooting out 20 feet and maybe hitting a bystander. I met the guy in one of those Western simulated towns with the daily gunfight and he told me thats how they made theirs. I never tried it on cotton but I did soak some cigarette papers in KNO3 and left them on a cousins dresser. Next one she rolled and lit was a hoot I'm told but unfortunately, I missed it. Burned her eyebrows almost clean off! She never did find out who played that joke on her, thats why I'm still alive.

303Guy
07-05-2009, 05:25 AM
I never tried it on cotton but I did soak some cigarette papers in KNO3 and left them on a cousins dresser.That was clever!:mrgreen: I love it![smilie=w:
I once primed someones pipe with match heads. That produced a beautiful mushroom cloud and a very puzzled face!:bigsmyl2: After the third time a match head blocked the hole and so he discovered what was causing the 'dry tobaco' syndrome! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I did think about making nitro but only as a spin-off to thinking about potasium nitrate on the cotton. But, I actually want the cotton to scrub the bore. I did think of doping it with wax or something that would lube and clean the bore and prevent smoldering. I also only speculated that cordite was in fact guncotton - now I know - thanks. (It also does tricky things when pushed inside a cigarette).:mrgreen:

Southern Son
07-05-2009, 06:18 AM
Sorry I have not been back on this post, but my last day off was when I went to the range and shot the loads that I posted at the beginning of the thread.

Digital Dan, I know that I have to anneal the cases. I was using an attachment in my rechargable drill that looks like a deep socket. I drop the base of the shell into the "socket" and then put the mouth/neck of the case into the flame of a propane torch. Like Mr Wasserburger, I do it after dark to see the change in colour, however, I drop the case into a ice cream container of water. The water has nothing to do with the annealing process, but it is easier for me at this stage to do it that way (when I get a proper shed, I will get a metal tray and I will let them air cool in the tray). Unfortunately, I am missing the "socket". It will turn up. When it does, I will be annealing a heap of .300 Win Mag cases as well. I will then neck them up to .458 before trimming them. On the recoil side, I think that it was a little from column A and a little from column B. I thought that there was something not right with the way the loads behaved. I have fired factory Winchester 500 grain FMJ loads and they were pleasant compared to those GG boolit loads. I have also let a bloke fire the rifle some time ago and he said that he had never fired a .458 Win Mag that kicked that bad with factory ammo. He shoots alot of Big Game competition and he thought that the stock geometry was not quite as good as other rifles he had fired. He has fired a hell of a lot more big game stuff than I ever will (.500 Nitros, .404 Jeffrey, .416 Taylor, lots of really interesting as well as big stuff) so I am willing to take his word for it.

FPMIII, I have a stupid answer to your question, I don't have any smooth sided molds. I don't have a lathe to make them (ONE DAY!!!!!) and I don't have any spare money to buy them. So I get a GG boolit that I cast out of the first mold I bought (from Cast Bullet Engineering, mold 459550 I think, but cut short so the boolit only weighs 525 grains) and I size it in a $35.00 Lee push through sizer. This is how I get to try PP, but I don't have to lay out for a mold. If I had enough money, I would send the money straight to Steve Brookes and I would have him cut me two smooth sided PP molds, one for black powder loads in my 45/70, the other for smokeless loads in this rifle. I would not be doing this to reduce drag in the .458 Win Mag, either, it is an elephant gun, not a Creedmore rifle. It might make a difference in the 45/70 which I do shoot to 1000 yards, but all I want to do with the .458 Win Mag is shoot it, cheaply, and maybe one day, shoot it, cheaply, at a pig or two. Firing a 550 grain PP Money Bullet out of this rifle would be an exercise in stupid. When I get do a smooth sided mold for the .458 Win Mag, it will have a FLAT POINT for hunting. A flat point is a bit more of a ballistic handicap than grease grooves.

Digital Dan
07-05-2009, 08:47 AM
all I want to do with the .458 Win Mag is shoot it, cheaply, and maybe one day, shoot it, cheaply, at a pig or two.'

That ought to be enough gun.:smile:

Don't know a flat point is all that necessary for soft alloys. Bullets below (300 grain, .422" FB @ ~1600 fps) attest that it's not for pork and venison. Note they were recovered under hide on the off side, both after mashing a LOT of bone. Of course if you want a harder alloy a flat point might be in order.

Deer, broke both upper forelegs, 5 ribs and cleaned the plumbing off the top of the heart.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/PaperPatchDeer009.jpg

Pig, right shoulder blade 6 ribs, 3 vertabrae.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN1880.jpg

Bullet is 2d from left

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3462.jpg

Southern Son
07-06-2009, 06:47 AM
I actually bought a 2nd hand Lee 405 grains flat point mold a while ago. I got it fairly cheap beacue the preveous owner had not looked after it. I had intended to cast up a few out of 50% clip on W/W and 50% stick on W/W, then sized them down like I did with the CBE boolits, but the mold is in worse shape than I thought and I may have done my cash on them. When the handles close, the mold don't always line up square. If I could get it onto a decent drill press, I might be able to drill new alignment holes and put in new pins, but all that will have to wait. I need to get into a house with a shed, all these projects, no room to do them and no tools to do them with.