1st post - I need some .45 Colt help

[Markbo]

First time posting here. I found this site through KTS and I hope somebody can help me out.

I got 2 SAA replicas last year and started reloading for the first time. I started out loading for .45 ACP and the two replicas in .45 Colt. I have had pretty good success with the ACP, but have had ongoing problems with the SAA's. I am not a caster (and probably won't be), so I started out with the usual suspects in hard cast lead bullets: Oregon trail laser cast, Cast Performance & Meister bullets. All hard cast, all .452". I have not shot jacketed bullets in either.

I had severe leading in both guns with moderate loads. I have since had the guns worked over including among other things have the forcing cones polished, chambers matched, barrels slugged, etc, etc, etc. The Beretta Stampede was very close with .452" chambers, but the Gaucho had to be reamed to .4535" chambers to be matched.

Since getting them back I still had leading with only moderate loads. I contacted Bob Palermo at Penn bullets and he sent me some of his hard cast bullets that are softer than the other suppliers thinking this would probably solve the issue. We decided on .454" bullets for the Gaucho because of the oversized chambers. The Stampede shoots fine. In fact, he sent me a sample box of a very soft (cowboy?) 210gr bullet to try that shot into about 1" to 1.5" groups. I may just keep that one since I wanted one to shoot lighter and one to shoot standard (250gr) bullets anyway.

But now the Gaucho won't shoot worth a darn. I tried the Penn .454" bullets which again are suppposed to be a bit softer than most of the others. I tried all the same loads it shot decently before expecting better accuracy and it is much worse - I am getting 5" + 6" groups!

There was still a little leading in both, though not nearly as bad as previously.

My question is, now what? Why am I still gettting leading, even with the softer, correctly 210gr bullets? Should I try the .452" again in the Gaucho or try gaschecks or jacketed or something?

I wanted to have two 6 guns and shoot lead bullets (hopefully a lot of 'em) in different weights (so I could have the fixed sights adjusted for a specific load) and now it is just a pain to have to clean so often during shooting and the poor accuracy has completely stumped me. I don't want to have to shoot jacketed bullets or gaschecks... heck I shouldn't have to in moderate loads, should I?

FYI all of the loads I tried were on the moderate side... I am not driving these lead bullets too fast. Of the 8 or so different loads I tried the fastest was around 900fps. Should I just download them all to a max of 750fps to avoid the leading? I hate to have to shoot anemic loads just to avoid leading, but I am kind of at a loss now and would appreciate any advice.

Many thanks
Mark

[StarMetal]

I tried those Oregon Trail bullets not long after they got started. I had severe leading in firearms that never leaded with anything else before. I called them and told them and they sent me a bunch more bullet...for what? to lead my bore up again? I've generally found that alot of commercial cast bullets don't perform up to snuff, mostly in the leading your bore dept. You're on the right track to open your cylinder throats up so that they are bigger then the groove diameter, that and the polishing you've done. I wouldn't go the gascheck route because it's an extra step and expense. There can be alot of thing...type of alloy, the hardness, type of powder, type and brand of lube....and more. This is part of the fun of shooting cast bullets. Taking a gun such as yours and getting it to shoot the way you want. I think you need to cast your own personally, that way you have control of your bullet...alloy, hardness, style, size, weight, and lube.

Also as for velocity 900 is just a tad above the "Colt" load. Most Colt loads run around 850 and down. You don't really need that unless you're hunting. You certainly don't need it for Cowboy Shoots and target shooting.


Joe

[txbirdman]

You might want to try some of the Hornady swagged bullets that are available in both .452 and .454 for the 45 Colt and are of the traditional weight and shape. The have a knurled surface and are externally lubed. Being swagged they will definitely be softer than any cast bullet. I've shot them in my Vaquero at 900 fps with no problems.

[Larry Gibson]

Markbo

It's the hard wax lube that is failing you and causing the leading and inaccuracy. Get some Lee Liquid Alox lube and lube the bullets you have with it. If you still have the laser cast bullets go ahead and tumble lube them. Just follow the directions, it is easy. If they are 250 gr bullets load them over 8.5 gr of Unique. If they are the 200-210 gr cowboy bullets load them over 6.5 gr Bullseye. I have done this will numerous commercial cast bullets including the Laser cast and the meisters and it works every time. It works with .452 hard cast bullets in .454 throats also. I'll bet if you do this your leading problems will be over, your SAAs will shoot accurately and you will be a happy camper.

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

You got your cylinders and forcing cones right, how about the bores? Sounds like your one wheeler is ok now. You might just want to slug the bore yourself on the poor shooter. Use an egg fishing sinker with the hole down the center. Lube it up good with a light oil or WD40. After you get it started, push or tap it through the bore and try to feel for any constrictions, especially where the barrel is threaded into the frame. If you have a tight spot there you, in effect, have the same condition as a cylinder throat that is smaller than the bore. You may also have a really rough bore that just needs a bunch of shooting to smooth out.

Another way to tell is to drive one sinker all the way through and measure it. Take another egg sinker and put a small headed nail through the hole and pinch the head end of the sinker down around the nail. The purpose of the nail is to give you something to lock a pair of vise grips onto to pull it back out. Drive this sinker into the muzzle end with an empty case or similar, then clamp on the pliers and pull/tap it back out. Make sure you use lots of lube. Measure it and compare it to the full pass slug. If it measures bigger, on the muzzle slug, you got a problem. You can solve it by shooting a bunch of jacketed rounds (500-1000), hand lap, or fire lap it.

I've done two rifles and will soon be helping a buddy do a Ruger SBH with a Beartooth fire lapping kit. My two guns have been an outstanding sucess story. Both had rough bores to start with. My Marlin 1895 had 0.0015" of bore constriction prior to lapping. If you want other opinions on this post a question or two on Marlinowners.com or Bearooth's forum. You will get lots of positive feedback from fellow shooters who have actually done this.

[Old Jim]

Markbo try the lube suggestion first. Wheel weight bullets with soft lube or Lee's Liquid Alox is the way to go.

[Markbo]

Thanks for the replies fellahs. I forgot to mention in the first post that the last trip did include all the bullets being treated with Lee Liquid Alox. I just put them in a ziplock back and tumbled them around and then allowed them to dry before loading.

[MT Gianni]

If theleading is in the first portion of the bbl and throat it is generally assumed to be from improper fit. If it's in the last portion of the bbl it's generally assumed to be lube. If it's throughout then I would shoot 230-300 jacketed bullets at a good velocity to smoothout the bore. Gianni.

[August]

Two tings.

One. Make sure you've actually gotten the bore free of lead. My experience is that, if there is any small amount of lead in the bore, leading will occur more quickly and severly than when the bore is clean. The Lewis Lead Remover tool is the only way to get a bore clean -- sometimes.

Two. All those claims to hardcast this and laser cast that are catipeller dung, IMHO. Get some Bear Creek moly coated bullets and never have a leading problem again. All the pards here-abouts us 'em and love 'em. The local emporium has to work hard to keep 'em in stock. They're on the web.

Three. (I know I said two tings, but this one's knawing at me) What the heck powder are you using and in what amount? Yer not tryin' to use 231 or Unique or some such newfangled rocket propellant in there are ya'?

Hopin' this helps the cause.

[robertbank]

To get the lead out of your gun go buy some 100% copper chore Boy scrbbing pads. Wrap a piece around a cleaning brush and a couple of strokes with it and your lead will all be removed. Much cheaper and faster than the Lewis Lead Remover. Wish I got that tip before I spent the bucks for the Lewis. Haven't used the latter now in years.

Take Care

[Markbo]

I'll try the chore boy trick too, thanks. OK... I knew this would be asked, so by gun, here are the maximum charges I used:
Stampede
225gr Cast Performance HC: N340 - 9.8gr
230gr Penn HC: Trailboss - 7.0gr
255gr Cast performance HC: Unique - 9.5gr (shot it hot since it is so hard)
255gr Penn HC: Unique - 8.6gr
210gr Penn softcast: Unique - 8.5gr, Trailboss 7.0gr,

My notes show minor leading in all but the 255gr Penn with only a tiny mount around the ring. I will scrub it out really well and shoot some jacketed bullets through it and reshoot it's most accurate loads again.

Question: Would .451" Ranier copper plated bullets do it, or do I need to stick with .452" hard jackets like XTP's?

Gaucho
.452" 225gr CP HC: N340 - 9.8gr,
.452: 255gr CP HC: Unique - 9.5gr

Penn HC .454" bullets:
230gr FP: W231 - 9.6gr, Unique - 8.5gr,
255gr RNFP: Unique - 8.4gr, Power Pistol - 7.1gr, Univ Clays - 7.8gr, Herco - 8.6gr

My notes show only the 230gr Penn had any leading, BUT the accuracy numbers are 4"-6". The smallest was an average of 3" from the 225gr .452" load. That is still no good. The 7.1gr of power pistol was 8"!

These are not all of the loads I tested - just the maximum charges by bullet weight of loads that had shot the best of all the ones I had tried prior to any gunsmithing. The above were all Aloxed. If it would be useful, I can break it all down further with the exact charge and accuracy.

I really appreciate everyone's time and input. Being new to reloading, this has really been baffling to me. I am used to buying 2 or 3 or 4 different boxes off the shelf and shooting whatever is most accurate. One of the attractions of reloading was the ability to tweak loads to gain the utmost accuracy. That has worked well in to different 1911's and even in a subcompact .40S&W.

I thought the .45 Colt would be the easy one. That has proven to not be the case - though I have loaded some heavy/hunting rounds for other revolvers and they have been great. Heck, even these lighter loads shot well in those guns though.

[SharpsShooter]

I thought the .45 Colt would be the easy one. That has proven to not be the case - though I have loaded some heavy/hunting rounds for other revolvers and they have been great. Heck, even these lighter loads shot well in those guns though.


Typically, your thought is correct. Given the proper diameter boolit out of a clean bore with moderate charges of Unique ,lit off with standard pistol primers, it is difficult to make a 45LC shoot badly with cast. Your situation is just one of those quirks that you will encounter from time to time.

:coffee:

[David R]

I agree with your thought to shoot a bunch of jacketed through it. I have had a few guns that needed 100, or 500, or more to get it to shoot smooth and not lead. My dads Smith 44 special was the worse. The lead came out in twisted spirels. After almost 1,000 rounds the leading went away completly.

I think you have 2 different problems, leading and accuracy. You have to solve the leading problem first.

My smith will shoot all week long with 9.0 unique behind a RCBS 240 SWC and makes nice groups. 4" to 6" at 100 yards when the scope is on it.

Only my $.02

David

[Cherokee]

Markbo - you have gotten good direction. I use soft cast (WW+2% tin), sized 452 and a commercial hard lube in a trio of Ruger 45 Colts and pair of EMF 45 Colts. None of them have ever leaded on me in the thousands of rounds fired, plus the same load in my Marlin LA without leading. The bullet is RCBS 230 CM and 5.0 gr of WST powder.

[Cherokee]

Sorry for double post

[Markbo]

Actually that brings up another question... all commercial cast bullets come with a waxy lube on them. It doesn't seem to me to be what would be best, BUT if it were shipped with anything softer/lighter it would be a melted mess in transit.

So if I get commercial bullets, should I just continue to alox them or should I also or instead use some other type of hard lube?

Like David R said, my leading is a smaller problem than the accuracy, but it does have to be addressed.

Thanks
Mark

[Larry Gibson]

Actually that brings up another question... all commercial cast bullets come with a waxy lube on them. It doesn't seem to me to be what would be best, BUT if it were shipped with anything softer/lighter it would be a melted mess in transit.

So if I get commercial bullets, should I just continue to alox them or should I also or instead use some other type of hard lube?

Like David R said, my leading is a smaller problem than the accuracy, but it does have to be addressed.

Thanks
Mark

Mark

There in lays the rub....the lube would melt/rub off and the bullets would be a lot messier for the manufacturers to handle. I used to live in La Grande, Oregon. There was a commercial caster there by the name of Greir (SP?). I used a lot of his bullets for a number of years and loaded quite a few for the UCSO. I had numerous BS sessions with him and the insights into the commercial casters ways are some what different than those of us who cast for ourselves. "Commercial" is the key word to remember. They are there to turn a profit. They use the hard wax lubes because it stays on the bullet during transportation and handling. They use bevel based bullets because they fall out of the moulds much more reliably than flat based bullets. The alloys are hard because they cast easier that way. These three reasons keep production costs down and profits up.

I used to buy gobs of a .45 cal 200 gr SWC flat based bullet from him. With an order of 5,000 bullets he would leave them as cast (.454+/-) and unlubed. I would size these .452 and .454 and lube them with Javelina. I used them in .45 ACP, .45AR and .45 Colt. accuracy was always exceptional and on par with my own carefully cast bullets. At the price I was getting them I couldn't afford to sit there and cast them myself. Then one batch I got was identical to the H&Gs 68, a 205 gr bevel base bullet. I took them back and he said he'd had two much trouble with the flat based bullets falling from the moulds and wasn't using them any more. I quickly found the bevel based bullets were not as accurate. Grier went out of business sometime later. Not sure that Oregon trail Cast bullets in Baker had anything to do with it.

Subsequently I have found that to be the case with most commercial bevel based bullets, they do not shoot as accurately as flat based bullets. With my Comp M1911, my M1917/25 and a Ruger BHK the flat based Greir 200 gr bullet (looked exactly like the H&Gs 68 without the bevel base) would all put 6 shots into 1" at 25 yards off a solid rest (or 2-3" at 50 yards with a Ransome Rest). With any of the bevel based bullets I consider 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 25 yards to be good. Yes I occasionally shoot a "keeper" group less than that but they will not do that good of accuracy all the time. My own cast 195 and 200 gr SWCs (Lee and Lyman) still shoot 1" consistently.

A few years back I moved to Portland and began ordering unsized and unlubed bullets of various types from Liberty but alas, they also they to have gone out of business. I can usually order several thousand of the Laser Cast and pick them up from their booth at the Puyallup Gun Show (could a couple years ago anyway - haven't made the gun show since before I deployed to Iraq almost 2 years ago). That save quite a bit on shipping if you can arrange something similar. Recently a friends son picked up a .41 mag and asked if I'd help him load up some practice loads. I didn't have time to cast so I picked up some commercial cast 215 gr SWCs from a local gun store. They were lubed with the typical blue hard wax and had a slight bevel base. I loaded up 12 rounds over 8.5 gr Unique. I also scraped most of the wax lube out and ran them through the 450 lubing them with Javelina and loaded them the same. I fired them out of my Ruger Bisley with 7 1/2" barrel over a solid rest at 25 yards. For control I shot 12 my own cast bullet (Lee 410-175-TL) and they went into 1.5". I cleaned the barrel and chambers, no trace of leading. The 12 bullets I'd lubed with Javelina went into 2.2" and again when I cleaned the chambers and barrel there was not a trace of lead. I then shot the 12 "out of the box" so to speak accuracy was 3.1” (first 6 went into 1.7” but the second 6 began opening the group right up). The throats were streaked with lead, the forcing cone was leading up and there was lead streaks down the barrel about 1 to 2”. This typical of my experience with all commercial cast bullets with the hard wax lubes. I’ve found that with the hard wax mostly removed and Javelina (Tamarack or the other alox/beeswax lubes are as good) substituted that accuracy improves and leading stops. Merely tumbling the bullets in liquid alox reduces most of the leading problem and some times improves accuracy. Washing the wax lube off the bullets so the groove holds more of the liquid alox does a much better job of preventing leading and improving overall accuracy.

Caveat. The loads must not exceed the bullets ability to shoot well.

Larry Gibson

[Markbo]

A lot of good information there Larry, thank you very much. Since I already tried the Alox over the lube, how exactly would I go about removing the wax lube that is on the bullets already? Hot water bath and air dry?

I guess I can keep some of them to shoot at higher velocities as practice hunting loads or smaller game hunting loads in the larger SBH's.

[Larry Gibson]

A lot of good information there Larry, thank you very much. Since I already tried the Alox over the lube, how exactly would I go about removing the wax lube that is on the bullets already? Hot water bath and air dry?

I guess I can keep some of them to shoot at higher velocities as practice hunting loads or smaller game hunting loads in the larger SBH's.

I'm sure there are other just as easy methods but here's how I remove the lube; I place the bullets in a large empty coffee can not filling it more than half. I then use Coleman Fuel (because I have it around for lanterns. White gas or mineral spirits should work just as well) and fill the can about 3/4s full. I let the bullets soak for an hour or so. This usually disolves all the lube. I then slosh the can of bullets/fuel a little and then pour the fuel into another fuel can for reuse. I lay a large bath towel (old one or the wife will kill ya!) out flat and dump the bullets onto the middle. The sides are folded up and I grasp the ends one in each hand. The bullets are tumbled lightly back and forth in the towel which gets most of the fuel and any remaining lube residue off. The bullets are then put on newsprint on my deck (in the sun preferably) to dry. Depending on temperature it doesn't take long, an hour or so on cold cloudy days at most. When dry the bullets are ready for relubing. If that was the only batch I just lay the towel out and spread the bullets out on it to dry. When the towel is dry a good shaking outside and the lube residue will shake off. Removing the lube is easy to do, probably harder to explain it than to do it.

Larry Gibson

[High Desert Hunter]

Most commercial cast bullets are bevel based, I have personally found that they lead worse than plain based bullets. I learned about the lube business when I recovered a few bullets, and the hard lube was still in the groove even after 2' of dirt.

Dave

[9.3X62AL]

Markbo et al--

See also the contemporaneous thread on this caliber that is under way in this section.

[Markbo]

Thanks for that... I read that and will again. More and more new information for me. This is just not going to be as easy as I thought it would be, that's all! :-D

I have a question about lubing... since I am still using commercial cast bullets for the time being, should I remove the hard wax lube before applying alox? If so, how?

When alox'ing bullets, can I put them in a tumbler and add alox or will that deform/dent/harm the bullets? Previously I just put a couple handfulls in a ziplock bag and added about a toothbrush size squeeze of alox, but it seemed difficult to get them all coated exactly the same.

[Dale53]

C.E. Harris has suggested cutting the Lee Liquid Alox 50/50 with mineraly spirits and THEN apply. That should solve your problem.

FWIW

Dale53