Homemade black powder

[delmar]

Anyone here ever make your own black powder? How did that work out for you? Did you make it with a ball mill, or make "fudge" out of it and grate it through a screen?

[gnoahhh]

Let's see, I've got all ten fingers and two eyes, two ears, all my teeth, so... nope never tried making my own blackpowder. The stuff is too cheap to mess around taking the un-Godly chance of something horrible happening.

[Lead Fred]

For thsoe that can get it, it was outlawed here and we have to smuggle it in from another state.

We made a wee bit years ago. If you keep the ground wet around it, and it doesnt dry to fast, your ok, if not BOOM.

[shotman]

Mortar and pestil is what I used. You only need to grind the Potassium Nitrate. sulfur and charcole is already fine enough . Just mix . I didnt use in a gun so the Fine powder was fine for me

[Southern Son]

Ages ago I used to go shooting on a farm down near Goulburn (more than twenty years ago, now that I think of it). The farm was a hobby for one of the petrochemists that worked at the oil refinery near where I lived. The fellow who owned it was a great bloke and I got on well with him and one of his sons. This bloke thought that teaching his son how to make black powder would be O.K.

Don't know where they got a couple of the elements, but they would mix it up wet, let it dry in a big clump over a few weeks, then just crumble it up with their hands. It was nothing too scientific, they were just making firecrackers.

One day, the son mixed up a batch and in a hurry to make it dry, he left it sitting on top of the wood burning stove in the shed where we all slept (there was no house on the property). The rest of use did not know about this. We were all sitting outside the shed watching a sunset when there was a massive wooshing sound inside the shed, then sulfur smelling smoke started pouring out of all the gaps in the shed, the the old man started yelling, it was all quite spectacular. I laughed so hard I fell off my chair.

I stopped laughing when I went to climb into my sleeping bag later that night and the bag smelt like rotton eggs. I ended up throwing the sleeping bag away several months later. The stink just never went away. Black powder is quite expensive here in Australia ($60.00 per kilo and up), but I think that I would rather pay for it than have to use that rough as guts, no two grains of powder the same size, spontaniously combusting, never burn the same way twice junk that they used to make on the farm.

[shotman]

Well I was looking at a price sheet for the componets and looks like it would be much cheaper to make than to buy. As for firecrackers or cherry bombs you need the flash powder. Its made with potassium perclorate and aluminum powder. I would say about 5gr of that is all it would take for a 45/70

[Mtman314]

Foxfire book 5 has all the instructions look it up on the web or your nearest book store.

[Jim]

You can also find instructions on how to burn down refineries, make thermonuclear warheads and blow your brains out with a large bore handgun.
I'm sorry, that was not pointed at anyone in particular. I'm just being a smart @$$. Seriously, many people have been killed or permantly crippled/wounded by messing around with homemade black powder. I would strongly advise against it.
To be very honest with you, I'm so flinchy about real BP, I won't keep it in my shop. I use the synthetic stuff.

[Mtman314]

The fox fire 5 book also covers gun making and a large number of other things such as chipping flints, cutting rifling with a homemade machine, etc. The Fox Fire series is about skills that enabled the mountain folks in Appilachia to survive. In the mountains the flintlocks were still being used into the 1960's.

[303Guy]

I've made the stuff and it worked OK in my shotgun and 44mag but it wouldn't cycle my 9mm. It didn't produce any spectacular velocity in the 44mag but it did work. It worked well in the shotgun. Cleaning was a bitch. I mixed mine wet with homemade charcoal. I wouldn't recommend making large quantities![smilie=1:

[RMulhern]

Hmmm....does Foxfire 5 talk about IDIOTS with no commonsense??

Just wondering!!

[trevj]

Take a run over to the Homegunsmith forum. Register, log in, and find the Blackpowder sub-forum. Set the preferences to "from the beginning" and find the 20 plus page thread on home-made powder there.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20596

The worrywarts and arm waving panic-meisters can go be worried elsewhere. Please.

With a reasonable level of (un)common sense, and a little self education, a pretty reasonable product can be made.

It may be worth remembering, that making bullets out of molten hot metal, is scary and dangerous to those that have no real concept of what a caster actually does. And you CAN actually hurt yourself really badly in this hobby, if you do something irrevocably stupid, whether it's dropping wet stuff into a melting pot, or similar such things.

As an educational experience, I think home made powder would be OK, with reasonable precautions taken. Being aware of the risks, and taking some level of personal responsibility for the results, is part of life, no?

Cheers
Trev

[jlchucker]

Let's see, I've got all ten fingers and two eyes, two ears, all my teeth, so... nope never tried making my own blackpowder. The stuff is too cheap to mess around taking the un-Godly chance of something horrible happening.

I agree. The same could be said about trying to make your own primers. Anyone that's ever worked at an ammo plant knows that this is a complex and dangerous business, since the mix that goes into primers is extremely volatile. I worked at one of these plants once, and there was a legend there--don't know if it's true or not, but no reason to doubt it. The person telling it was old enough to know first-hand. It occurred during WWII. Someone was walking between buildings with a bucket of primer mix, slipped and fell. They never found even the pieces of him.

If the day ever comes when we have to bootleg loading components, I can foresee a secretive industry growing around that need--but to pull it off they'll need a lot of knowhow and a lot of equipment to do it safely. For now though, I'll conserve my stash and buy commercial. It's a whole lot safer.

[cajun shooter]

Jim, That job of yours has gotten to your brain. When shooters go around spreading false hoods about something in our sport it hurts us all. Black powder is not dangerous to keep or use. It's like everything else in our world. It has a set of rules that come with it. Rule #1 is DON"T TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN POWDER!! THE rest of the rules are common sense. You can hurt yourself with the burns from smokeless powder also. There is so much bull that is spread about BP that it would take a lifetime to straighten out. It is listed as a high explosive in some places and that is wrong. Not letting people have it to enjoy shooting is wrong. All it takes is some one who says that they know about BP and for that person to say that stuff is so dangerous I won't keep it in my house. Next thing you know we have a rumor. I was told just this morning at a CAS match by a life long shooter; I would never shoot that stuff in my guns and ruin them like you do. I asked him if he thought I bought new guns every week and how in the world are there so many old COLTS and Winchesters around. Back to the RULE#1 DON't make your own powder

[delmar]

Jim, That job of yours has gotten to your brain. When shooters go around spreading false hoods about something in our sport it hurts us all. Black powder is not dangerous to keep or use. It's like everything else in our world. It has a set of rules that come with it. Rule #1 is DON"T TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN POWDER!! THE rest of the rules are common sense. You can hurt yourself with the burns from smokeless powder also. There is so much bull that is spread about BP that it would take a lifetime to straighten out. It is listed as a high explosive in some places and that is wrong. Not letting people have it to enjoy shooting is wrong. All it takes is some one who says that they know about BP and for that person to say that stuff is so dangerous I won't keep it in my house. Next thing you know we have a rumor. I was told just this morning at a CAS match by a life long shooter; I would never shoot that stuff in my guns and ruin them like you do. I asked him if he thought I bought new guns every week and how in the world are there so many old COLTS and Winchesters around. Back to the RULE#1 DON't make your own powder

Warnings about safety are a good thing, but it is not as if nobody in the history of the world has ever made their own powder safely.

[EOD3]

Making black powder can be done with relative safety IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING and you're not a candidate for a Darwin Award. There are a good many things that are potentially dangerous to make, ranging from deep fried foods to Nitroglycerin.

IMHO, the "safety" hysteria we sometimes see is severely detrimental to our sport(s). The uninitiated hear the self-described "ex spurts" (two guns) playing the safety one-upmanship game and they come away with the notion that there is an evil demon just waiting to kill the unwary spectator and the shooter is surely DOOMED. The safety NAZI's who live for the day they catch someone on TV or in a magazine not living up to the "commandments" are some of our worst enemies.

This rant is NOT a cheap shot at anyone here. I'm sure most of us know at least a couple of the folks I'm talking about.

PS: This message via REMOTE CAMERA

[muffinman]

Um wasn't the Op asking if anyone had actually made bp? I have not. Wow that was easy.

[zxcvbob]

I made some BP last year, using stump remover (bought it on clearance for $1 per pound), garden dusting sulfur, and home-made white cedar charcoal. Milled it in a Harbor Freight rock tumbler with a big handful of .457 hard lead balls, dampened the resulting dust with water and rubbing alcohol to make a stiff clay, then pressed it thru a wire screen (kitchen strainer) to make pulverone. It worked OK in .45 Colt cartridges once it was dry enough, but I need to find a purer source of cheap KNO3 before I try it again. (hydroponics or "spray grade" potassium nitrate fertilizer should be good enough)

[delmar]

Um wasn't the Op asking if anyone had actually made bp? I have not. Wow that was easy.
Thanks for your response, I guess I can put you on the list of people not to ask about how it is done safely.

[mold maker]

Do you think our ancestors went to WalMart and bought their powder in a plastic bottle????
It's been a couple centuries since the first black powder was made. Were they really that much smarter then?
No I haven't done it,,, yet,,, but I intend to try. I've been studying, what to use, and how, for over a year. There's no black magic involved.
I've made mistakes and had failures, but they were very well thought out and calculated. There was always a safety margin involved, and Yes I too still have all my fingers and eyes.

[longbow]

I have made black powder successfully and still have all my digits and eyes.

It certainly wasn't as good as store bought black powder but I also didn't mill it or corn it. I just crushed and mixed in small quantities. I used to use it in home made cannons and no they didn't blow up either.

As mentioned, there are many things around us that are dangerous and so have to be handled with care. I am not recommending that people go out and make black powder especially if they do not have any idea what they are doing. Information is available though and it can be done safely ~ though likely not legally!

There are lots of things around most people's houses that are as dangerous or even more so than black powder or other propellants:

- natural gas ~ has been a source of fire and explosion but is piped directly into many homes
- propane ~ how many have a 20 or 40 lb. bottle of propane on their deck or patio? Even worse in their basement? How many have a propane torch with bottle in the basement? What if it leaks? How many have a trailer or camper with propane fridge and stove? I put out one propane fire that burned a trailer to the ground and I know a fellow that was blown out of his camper by a propane explosion. This is dangerous stuff!
- naptha ~ usually stored in basement or garage
- that 5 gal. can of gas in your garage for the boat or lawn mower
- how many have a beer or other alcoholic drink going while they reload?

Be smart, be careful, educate yourself and most of all, play safe!

Longbow

[muffinman]

Thats right Delmar, I have not made any so you can put me on your list. Since I have not made any I wasn't going to tell you how unsafe it was or call any who wanted to try it idiots. Wasn't trying to give you a hard time.Just wanted to see responses from people who have actually made it so I could learn to. It seems anymore a guy asks a question and gets all kinds of advice from people telling him what to or not to do when they havn't done it themselves.

[shotman]

well I made some today and I was going to te-- BOOM

[Mtman314]

Hmmm....does Foxfire 5 talk about IDIOTS with no commonsense??

Just wondering!!

No actually it talks about a gent who makes and uses is own powder for his smokepole and he has done so for years, along with chipping his own rifle flints. I know he says to use stale urine to give it a extra bit of punch.

I haven't had a powder shortage yet to worry about making it. I won't rule it out though.

[delmar]

Take a run over to the Homegunsmith forum. Register, log in, and find the Blackpowder sub-forum. Set the preferences to "from the beginning" and find the 20 plus page thread on home-made powder there.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20596


Thanks a lot Trev! That is an excellent thread with just the kind of info I was looking for! It is not exactly the lightest of reading but reading that thread top to bottom will help me to know if there is anything there I want to try. I didn't have to log in to see the thread, by the way. I am already a member of to many forums to keep up with all of them.

[delmar]

Thats right Delmar, I have not made any so you can put me on your list. Since I have not made any I wasn't going to tell you how unsafe it was or call any who wanted to try it idiots. Wasn't trying to give you a hard time.Just wanted to see responses from people who have actually made it so I could learn to. It seems anymore a guy asks a question and gets all kinds of advice from people telling him what to or not to do when they havn't done it themselves.

In that case welcome aboard brother. We'll talk through this thing, have a little fun, maybe even learn a thing or two:drinks:

[delmar]

As mentioned, there are many things around us that are dangerous and so have to be handled with care. I am not recommending that people go out and make black powder especially if they do not have any idea what they are doing. Information is available though and it can be done safely ~ though likely not legally!



Thank you for that reminder Long Bow! I just put the word out on the Indiana gun owners forum, and if I am even considering doing something illegal, those guys will let me know. Probably even link to the section of Indiana law that explains what I can't do!

[Marvin S]

Used to make some when I was a about 12 to 15 years old, just went to the local drug store and bought the ingredients. I think it was MeKesson brand or something like that. It worked ok for home made stuff. Don't really think there is a black powder substitute as none of the phony crap will work in a flint gun. Still make my own flint's though.

[Old Ironsights]

(A) it's not hard to make "black bowder"
(B) it IS somewhat more difficult to make GOOD BP.
(C) it is theoretically "illegal" to make EITHER... just ask the BATFE...

That said, it used to be mandatory in several countries for anyone with a Farm to lay in Nitre Beds... and was actively promoted as a "Patriotic Thing" in the US...

[WildmanJack]

Back about a hundred and twenty years ago, I recon I was about 9 or 10 yrs. old. I got a Gilbert Chemistry set for Christmas. I mixed some sulfur, some salt peter, and some powdered charcoal together in a bowl. If I recall, the little book that came with the set had the ingredients listed. Well I mixed it all up and took it outside. Lit it offf and man did I catch h#ll.. The cloud of smoke blew straight into the house and my folks were not very pleased. I think my dad took the sulfur away and that ended my black powder makin days.. Never realized how dangerous that was tilll I grew up.. Just my 2 cents...
Jack
:Fire:

[shooter575]

Do a web search for the pyrotechnics sites. Lots of good info there. There is a group of semi professionals around that have the knowledge and all of their fingers.
BTW I have made it before. Back in the 60s. Me and a buddy had a couple batches that were real close to the old Dupont ff in power.Left very little ash. We used regular old saltpeter from the farm supply store. Sulfur from a hobby shop and homemade charcoal. The carbon is the trick. A ball mill would be the ticket nowdays,back then I had no clue what one was.

[Jim]

Jim,... When shooters go around spreading false hoods about something in our sport it hurts us all..... All it takes is some one who says..... that stuff is so dangerous I won't keep it in my house. Next thing you know we have a rumor. .... and ruin them like you do. .....

Spreading falsehoods? Show me the evidence. I said nothing false.

I never said anything using the word "dangerous". Furthermore, you need to be a bit more careful how you quote me. Read my post again CAREFULLY.

I said nothing that is factually unfounded, therefore there is nothing rumorous about it. I didn't ruin anyone.

[delmar]

Spreading falsehoods? Show me the evidence. I said nothing false.

I never said anything using the word "dangerous". Furthermore, you need to be a bit more careful how you quote me. Read my post again CAREFULLY.

I said nothing that is factually unfounded, therefore there is nothing rumorous about it. I didn't ruin anyone.

You are a cautious fellow and I appreciate that.

[lavenatti]

There is a wealth of information here on making black powder:

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/

There is also a lot of information on the types of charcoal suitable for making a decent batch of BP. Seems the charcoal makes all the difference so be prepared to cook up your own charcoal if you plan on making your own black powder.

[psj12]

I remember reading the South had better black powder in the civil war because they used willow for the charcoal. Additionally Stump Remover is saltpeter.

[76 WARLOCK]

I made a lot of it 50 years ago when I was 17 never had a problem just use common sense.

[wallenba]

Do you think our ancestors went to WalMart and bought their powder in a plastic bottle????
It's been a couple centuries since the first black powder was made. Were they really that much smarter then?
No I haven't done it,,, yet,,, but I intend to try. I've been studying, what to use, and how, for over a year. There's no black magic involved.
I've made mistakes and had failures, but they were very well thought out and calculated. There was always a safety margin involved, and Yes I too still have all my fingers and eyes. Ancient Chinese recipe; collect several hundred gallons of urine, let stand until it becomes ammoniated. Stir in pig manure and allow bacteria digesters to consume ammonia and excrete nitrates. Strain off solids, boil until all liquid is gone, collect potassium nitrates. Climb volcano, collect sulphur, burn hardwoods underground, collect carbons. Instruct peasants to mix ingredients in proper proportions, pay survivors for their efforts.

[Old Ironsights]

Sigh....

OK... remembering that the Statute of Limitations has long ago passed...

IMO there are 2 biggest "failings" of most attempts at homebrew:

Bad Charcoal & Poor Mixing.

The Charcoal issue is bessed addressed using the gassification method defined at Ulrich's site, www.musketeer.ch

Now, to Mixing.

Black is not actually a true "substance", but a homoginized mixture. The better/closer the mixture, the better the powder.

You can see this by simply comparing the burn characteristics of equivelent volumes of a simple "ziploc-shake" combining the dry components, combining with a non-sparking mortar & pestle, and a commercial flat/ball-mill.

In all cases, the safety factor is moderated by the volume of production.

Ball Mill mixing can be roughly duplicated at home using a "thumbler's tumbler", rubber lapidary tumbler or equivelent and some 54+cal lead musket balls.

Load the Balls, your components (no more than 1lb worth) and enough ethanol to the mix to make a slurry, seal and turn the thing on... by remote. Let it run for as long as you can get away with, adding alcohol every now and again to keep the slurry a wet (just beyond muddy-damp) mess.

Another way, not as good as the ball method, but easier to cobble together on the cheap, is to use a Good Will kitchen blender - WITHOUT THE LEAD BALLS :roll: -

Same principle applies. 1lb net components + alcohol & a LONG extention cord. (wrap the glass blender pitcher in a couple-4 layers of electrical tape... don't ask...)

Again, let it run on "mix" for as long as practical. Keep the slurry a wet mess and it shouldn't blow up.

After that, it's all a matter of drying the slurry to a "dryish mud-ball" consistency (playdoh?) and corning the stuff with an appropriately sized brass screen, then letting it finish drying in the sun somewhere out of more than a gentle (non dust-lifting) breeze...

[yotatrd4x4]

Wow it seems all of us who want to try to make our own blackpowder or primers and such must all be the spawn of satin and retards in the same. I am pretty sure my ancestors made their own powder and I would say who knows if you had a bunch of people who all were afraid to do something then where would inventions come from? I guess since a boat can sink you shouldnt ever try and build one cause it might sink. I dont see why everyone is so afraid of black powder? Hell when I was a kid my dad used to make homemade m80's with homemade black powder. Oh by the way I have all my teeth, fingers, and I gradumakated high school and now am Serving in the Air Force but I am from The Appalachian mountains of western North Carolina and US inbreds as most would say pride ourselves at being able to live off the land. I say if you have the knowledge and sense to do something safely then do it. The Army has a manual that shows how to repack a used primer using a vise and a punch and 3 match heads. It also shows how to make homemade, guns, mines, etc. Some of them are not so safe but 1 pound of black powder since most of you probably dont know if you were sitting in front of it in a open enviroment and it exploded, Oh yeah if its not compressed then all it does is make a big flash and smoke cloud. I think if you are not able to make homemade black powder you should not be reloading either what if your smokeless powder in your powder dispenser catches fire and then all your ammo blows up. Well maybe if you would be careful and take precautions as to not blow yourself up then it will be fine. anyway I am not trying to be rude or hurt anyones feelings because I know in todays society it is against the law to hurt someones feelings. I say make your own black powder, shoot it and have fun with it. Be safe and careful and for God's sake all who think its awful and wrong then dont reply to the thread and dont bash one's who do. Please just say yes I have made my own powder or No I havent. On that note I have never made my own black powder but soon as I get to Alaska I am gonna try it out.

[windrider919]

This is a copy of another thread in this forum but because everyone is focused on traditional BP you are missing modern chemistry. So:

quote>
Actually, for BPCR I make non-corrosive BP substitute using either vitamin C (ascorbic acid powder) or powdered confectioners sugar and potasium nitrate. You don't really need sulfur if you use a hot primer. This substitute will not reliably fire in a flintlock because there it needs the sulfur as 'tinder' to initiate the reaction. Everything in my ball mill including myself is grounded while running to drain off any static charge that might set off an accident. It runs in its own little 'outhouse' by itself in the middle of a field. I only make 1 lb at a time. Then I store it in old BP cans, never more than 2 or 3 lbs in possession at a time. Never enough to disturb any LEOs, fur shur.

Note: Ascorbic acid 'white powder' is more powerful than regular BP and charges must be reduced 20% and worked up.
quote>

[windrider919]

Just so you know, the 'carbon burning compound' he mentions below is Vitamin C

Quote from: © 2004, 2005 by Randy Wakeman

TRIPLE SEVEN, BLACK MAG3, GOEX CLEAR SHOT

Now we get into an area where the muzzleloading industry has drifted into a mess of double-talk, sidestepping, and confusion. These propellants have nothing in common with true blackpowder at all chemically; no sulfur is present. Nor is charcoal present. They are still carbon-burning propellants, though, of the deflagrating (fast-burning) type. They are measured volumetrically, but only Goex Clear Shot can be considered a black powder performance substitute. Triple Seven and Black Mag3 are far hotter (or more energetic) than good old blackpowder, and produce higher velocities and pressures than blackpowder can. Still burning carbon, the carbon-based fuel burned here is from the sugar family-not from wood (charcoal). These propellants are actually far more modern than nitrocellulose based powders. In the case of Triple Seven and Black Mag3, they have only become available within the last couple of years.

Referring to Triple Seven and Black Mag3, the only thing that they have in common with blackpowder is they can be volumetrically measured with old blackpowder powder measures. They are not as corrosive as blackpowder (Black Mag3 claims to be non-corrosive), have little in common chemically, and produce more pressure, heat, and velocity than black powder. They are considered smokeless powder by the DOT, and should be used with caution in older muzzleloaders-- as there is no way that 100 grains volumetric charge of Triple Seven or Black Mag3 can be considered "the same" as traditional blackpowder. They are still relatively inefficient propellants, leaving behind close to 50% of their mass as non-combusted, solid residue. Referring to Triple Seven, that 50% unburned material is substantially less fouling than blackpowder for the simple reason that a 100 grain volumetric charge of Triple Seven, though it produces more energy than blackpowder, is far less by actual weight. More directly stated, you still have about 50% of the garbage left, but you start with less garbage to burn in the beginning.

[delmar]

This is a copy of another thread in this forum but because everyone is focused on traditional BP you are missing modern chemistry. So:

quote>
Actually, for BPCR I make non-corrosive BP substitute using either vitamin C (ascorbic acid powder) or powdered confectioners sugar and potasium nitrate. You don't really need sulfur if you use a hot primer. This substitute will not reliably fire in a flintlock because there it needs the sulfur as 'tinder' to initiate the reaction. Everything in my ball mill including myself is grounded while running to drain off any static charge that might set off an accident. It runs in its own little 'outhouse' by itself in the middle of a field. I only make 1 lb at a time. Then I store it in old BP cans, never more than 2 or 3 lbs in possession at a time. Never enough to disturb any LEOs, fur shur.

Note: Ascorbic acid 'white powder' is more powerful than regular BP and charges must be reduced 20% and worked up.
quote>

That's what I'm talking about! +1

The white powder recipe I have been looking at just uses granulated sugar and K nitrite. Cook it on the stove top until it is the constancy of fudge. Then run it through a cheese grater and let it finish drying on a cookie sheet.
I think I would use a crock pot outside.

I had wondered whether powdered sugar in a ball mill would do the trick, but you are the first person to mention it.

[rhead]

A double boiler would avoid the chance of a hot spot.

[delmar]

A double boiler would avoid the chance of a hot spot. I think the crock pot, set on low would as well.

[Old Time Hunter]

My Grandfather always had three compost pits going, rotating yearly. Remember pouring cow urine and other animal waste(including our own) and covering with straw. He'd come back in a year or so then dig the gunk out, crush it, and then dry it. Sift the potion over a wheel barrel, he'd taste it with a finger. If it was ready, he'd scoop out a few coffee cans worth and grind it fine. What was not deemed "good enough" went into the garden. Charcoal and sulfer were always available. Never knew it was illegal as Gramps was the county sherriff.....

[delmar]

My Grandfather always had three compost pits going, rotating yearly. Remember pouring cow urine and other animal waste(including our own) and covering with straw. He'd come back in a year or so then dig the gunk out, crush it, and then dry it. Sift the potion over a wheel barrel, he'd taste it with a finger. If it was ready, he'd scoop out a few coffee cans worth and grind it fine. What was not deemed "good enough" went into the garden. Charcoal and sulfer were always available. Never knew it was illegal as Gramps was the county sherriff.....

Pretty sure it's not. People get worked up pretty easy.

[rhead]

I think the crock pot, set on low would as well.

It SHOULD. There could be a thin spot or a mico crack in the ceramic. Why take an avoidable risk? Just how much trust do you put in the unknown person who made the crockpot? The outcome of someone else's mistake could get messy. You could heat it with a blow torch also but you could only do it once. You can probably do it a thousand times in a crock pot (That means that one time in a thousand it will say boom the first time) or ten thousand with a double boiler. If you are willing to take the chances have at it. Knowing how is probably a good thing to know but making a habit of doing it just for the rush is just a loud way to clean up the gene pool.
Am I paranoid? Heck no I think they take too many chances. Find every way to cut the odds even more.

[delmar]

It SHOULD. There could be a thin spot or a mico crack in the ceramic. Why take an avoidable risk? Just how much trust do you put in the unknown person who made the crockpot? The outcome of someone else's mistake could get messy. You could heat it with a blow torch also but you could only do it once. You can probably do it a thousand times in a crock pot (That means that one time in a thousand it will say boom the first time) or ten thousand with a double boiler. If you are willing to take the chances have at it. Knowing how is probably a good thing to know but making a habit of doing it just for the rush is just a loud way to clean up the gene pool.
Am I paranoid? Heck no I think they take too many chances. Find every way to cut the odds even more.That is why I was saying do it outside. Like on the driveway away from the house, and like yotatrd4x4 said, if it ain't compressed all your going to get is a flash and a cloud of smoke. Besides, I have never burnt food with my crock pot. Why would I burn the powder?

[delmar]

This is a copy of another thread in this forum but because everyone is focused on traditional BP you are missing modern chemistry. So:

quote>
Actually, for BPCR I make non-corrosive BP substitute using either vitamin C (ascorbic acid powder) or powdered confectioners sugar and potasium nitrate. You don't really need sulfur if you use a hot primer. This substitute will not reliably fire in a flintlock because there it needs the sulfur as 'tinder' to initiate the reaction. Everything in my ball mill including myself is grounded while running to drain off any static charge that might set off an accident. It runs in its own little 'outhouse' by itself in the middle of a field. I only make 1 lb at a time. Then I store it in old BP cans, never more than 2 or 3 lbs in possession at a time. Never enough to disturb any LEOs, fur shur.

Note: Ascorbic acid 'white powder' is more powerful than regular BP and charges must be reduced 20% and worked up.
quote>

I stirred together a teaspoon of powdered sugar and a teaspoon of K Nitrate and lit it tonight. Man did that release a lot of energy! I think it would almost work just like that but I am thinking of adding just enough hot water to make a clay out of it. then pressing it and grating it through a cheese grater and let it dry.

[Old Ironsights]

like yotatrd4x4 said, if it ain't compressed all your going to get is a flash and a cloud of smoke...

Did that this evening with about 1/2lb of random pull-down & scrap Sub. (I collect it all year)

Put it all in a thin baggie and took it out to where the kids were shooting off fireworks.

Put the baggie in a cardboard box, top open, and set it about 6" from a small fountain.

Nice FOOMP! when an embers made it through the baggie... but nothing particularly dangerous.

[windrider919]

Re: BP Substitute

I sent this message to another member who was curious. I was going to leave it there but the above posts made me think that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and that more knowledge is needed here.

Heating a mixture of KNO3 and standard sugar is known in the amateur rocketry field as 'candy fuel' It is made like fudge where you melt the sugar in a pot but here you DO NOT want it to caramelize. It should be noted that KNO3s melting point is much higher than sugars. The sugar / sucrose will melt but the potassium nitrate will stay solid. So what you want is finely powdered KNO3 to make as much contact with the sucrose molecules as possible. Since the mix is 65:35 there is a lot more KNO3 than sugar and the mix will be extremely thick due to the unmelted KNO3. When poured into a rocket motor mould we usually pull a vacuum on it to cause all the air bubbles to foam to the top. Because the surface area determines the burning rate you would never want just powder to be used, too much burning area would cause a catastrophic pressure rise. In a rocket motor any bubbles increase the burning surface area and could cause a pressure spike that could rupture the motor. Most rocket motors operate between 1000Psi and 1400Psi, much different than the levels in handguns and rifles. So the mix for firearms CAN contain bubbles. But the size of the powder grains does still control the burning rate so they should be consistantly sized, whatever size they are.

Honestly, I will guide you a little but you need to research yourself to gain the best, firmly engrained knowledge of BP mfg. I do make it myself but if you try it yourself and have an accident I will not be responsible for your actions. Damn lawyers pollute everything in life today.

The below IS NOT CANDY FUEL as it is not melted.
The basics I will cover but there are details I am leaving out that I think you need to research for yourself. The reason BP is moistened, not wetted is to let the KNO3 saturate the carbon to get full burn. the sulfur acts like tender to start the reaction but is not necessary if the ignition is hot enough. The water just 'glues' it together so powder grains can be made and the ingredients not seperate. Research 'Corned powder' like the Spanish used and the problems it caused on ships by seperating. With white powder you have already made it a homogeneous mix in the ball mill so all you are trying to do is bind the molecules together so you can make grains to control burning rate. Think grain elevators and dust explosions here. small particles have more surface area to burn and hence burn faster. BP works similar. As to screen size, I took some mixed 4Fg, 3Fg n 2Fg to an industrial screen mfg here in Houston who weave screen with the material and size wire and opening the customer desires. I just asked if they would pour the substance I had through screens until they found the ones that sorted the 3 sizes out. No I did not tell them what the 3 oz of stuff was. I ended up with two pieces of screen that I mounted in frames. I actually never asked what the screen size was! I only use the 3fg and recycle the other sizes. Yes I worried about static in my ball mill because it was plastic. So when I attached the PVC mixing blades inside the 'drum' I used marine copper fasteners. Around the outside I ran a copper strip which the faseners went through and I have a spring mounted carbon motor brush (to ground) that keeps contact with the strip [beside the bolt heads, not over them] as the drum turns and drains off all the static. I useed to use 45 cal lead balls in the mill but now i use non-sparking ceramic balls. I should mention here that I started with a 5 gal bucket n lid but re-manufactured with 8"dia. X 12"L PVC pipe, and end cap and a threaded clean out later as the bucket was just too big. I used the design from a site called 'United Nuclear" or something like that with two shafts supporting the drum, one being driven by a belt to the motor. I made my own 14" v-belt pulley on the driven shaft to slow it down (3 circles of wood w/ the middle one smaller) with a metal split block to clamp it to the shaft. I used 1/2 inch sch 80 black pipe and lightly cut the OD down on the ends to fit the bearing I bought at the auto store. Use the bearing book or search the bearing mfg online for what size you will want. The whole frame of my ball mill is wood, routed out for bearing housings as necessary. Don't think so much about duplicating mine, search all the different ones and build what you can with what you have. Usually the drum will determine how it is turned and how. For ex; I made a small 4" X 6"L ball mill with a square shaft out the center back wall (a 1/2" carrage bolt w/ the end ground into a 3/8 square) of the drum which is turned by a BBQ pit rotisserie motor and runs on four casters from an old office chair. Mounted on a 2 X 6 X 16"
One of the commercial or kids rock polishers would work but I don't have the money for that.

Research your own details on proportions as what I said earlier is just general. I should say that Vit C tablets are full of fiber filler and binders that you don't want. You have to dissolve them and strain out the filler then dry. Its easier to buy bulk C on evilBay. And you might think to not use confectioners sugar because it has a small amount of starch in it, in reality, its just more fuel for the oxidizer KNO3. Also, some of the artificial sugar substitutes work BETTER than sucrose as the fuel in white powder. Or West Sys marine boat building epoxy mixed with KNO3 and ground up is very explosive! Or one type of GE silicone mixed with KNO3 and cured is a stable high energy fuel. Butyl rubber cauk is the fuel in the shuttle solid rocket engines, different oxidizer than KNO3 though.
************************************************** *************
Most important note: the reason more people don't make white powder with sugar is that it is extremely hygroscopic. It will pull moisture out of the air and get soft like candy does. the commercial BP substitute manufacturers add desiccants and sealers to theirs but that is beyond me and probably you. So when you make it you have to put in desiccant pouches into the sealed container to store it and then shoot what you open. The Vit C is not as hygroscopic but still needs to be dessicated in mfg. This property also makes it hard to dry. I spread it in 1/16" layer on wax paper on a cookie sheet and put in a dehumidifier cabinet I built. Then run it through an old washing machine wringer to pulverize it when dry.

Making BP or white powder is actually a LOT of work, if I had even a few extra dollars I would not do it because I am lazy. I just will not give up my most favorite hobby though.

Note above that cooking KNO3-Sucrose mixtures is useless unless the temp is high enough to melt sugar. And that is WAY above boiling [212F] so double boilers will not work. And I to would be leary of using a gas stove or any heat source with flame (more than leary, I just would not!). I use an electric element when making rocket candy but it heats through a conductor plate to minimize hot spots which can and have set peoples batches off before. It does not explode but it produces the most amazing column of beautiful pink fire 10 or 12 feet into the air. Just imagine what it would be like in your kitchen when a foot wide column of flame roars up out of a pot against the ceiling and splashes out five or six feet to the sides! Just like progressive smokeless powder it has to be contained and the pressure rising to make it react faster. Otherwise it just burns energetically at one atmosphere. In a rocket we control the pressure by carefully calculating Kn which is the ratio of expected burning surface area to the size of the venturi nozzle hole. Hence, in absence of common sense, melting it in a pressure cooker would be terminally insane because you will be dead.

Also note that this homemade candy white powder would suck moisture into the case if left loaded for a long time and become a wet goo which will not be set off by a primer. The Vit C will make a powder that lasts much longer In general you don't store it homemade, you make it and use it.

Finally, I am forced to add this disclaimer because of the vultures among us who pose as human lawyers. All this information is available in public librarys and on the net. You should realize that my brief description is not comprehensive and you are solely liable with what you do with it. You must be detail oriented and dedicated to your sport and want to do as much yourself as possible to proceed with making white powder.. Just like the civil war reenactors of today who make as much of their gear as possible. Its dangerous in the hands of idiots and if you are one and misuse knowledge like this its not my fault you blow yourself up. In that case it would be "Evolution in Action" and no one elses fault. Of course if you do it before you breed and reproduce the world gene pool would be better off.

Hmmmmm.....

That makes this an exotic intelligence and survival test.........

A new TV reality show could be based on this...........

[Old Ironsights]

Somewhere in the archives I give Breass Mesh size for 3F Hold. IIRC it's "40 Mesh"

[delmar]

So I cooked up some white powder today from a recipe in Homemade Guns and Homemade ammo. http://fliiby.com/file/34127/3qv4b6zoo3.html It's the salt peter and sugar recipe. (I'm not recommending that anyone else try it nor am I the creator of this recipe)

The KNO3 and sugar did dissolve easily at a point that was below the boiling point. I cooked it down till it was the consistency of thin apple sauce, then turned off the heat. I threw it on a plate to finish drying. I looks a lot like a mess of grits on the plate and was about that thick by the time I got the pan scraped out.

Then I took a little glob of the wet mixture and tried to see if L could light it. You can see by the attached video that this stuff is not real easy to ignite until it dries

http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/post/4094377/?from=/my-radar

[windrider919]

delmar - you added water which does dissolve both the sugar and Kno3 but there is a small problem with that procedure. The dissolved components form crystals as the water solvent is reduced by boiling, the two do not join with each other but instead re-separate and form their own crystals. These crystals are LARGER than what you get out of a ball mill so although they will 'burn' the reaction is not as quick n energetic. The other problem is that the sucrose / sugar which was in solution and then recrystallized never melted unless you got it to min 310F / 338F degrees which is the melting point for sugar. [Actually 370F but there are some other things going on here] Ask any one who makes fudge, it takes higher than boiling to melt sugar. Real melted sucrose coats each micro / balled grain of KNO3 and gives a full reaction right out of the pot, no drying necessary.

IF the mixture turns light brown the sugar is being heated too long and is starting to caramelize. Caramelized sugar will not react with KNO3 as it is a stable molecule. A little golden is ok, darker brown is wasted KNO3. Note: a drop of ethylene glycol, NOT propylene glycol antifreeze will help the melting

Sugar works but Vit C is more powerful and not hydroscopic, try it instead. It doesn' have to be cooked with all the other problems

[delmar]

I ran it through the cheese grater. Just about ready for end stage drying. I'm thinking it should be ready to test tomorrow night.

http://radar.net/entry/image/?id=4096197&width=480&height=480
http://radar.net/entry/image/?id=4096201&width=480&height=480

and a short video
http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/post/4096178/?from=/my-radar

[delmar]

I think it's pretty much finished, but I'm not sure how to know if it's dry enough.
http://radar.net/entry/image/?id=4096700&width=480&height=480

[delmar]

delmar - you added water which does dissolve both the sugar and Kno3 but there is a small problem with that procedure. The dissolved components form crystals as the water solvent is reduced by boiling, the two do not join with each other but instead re-separate and form their own crystals. These crystals are LARGER than what you get out of a ball mill so although they will 'burn' the reaction is not as quick n energetic. The other problem is that the sucrose / sugar which was in solution and then recrystallized never melted unless you got it to min 310F / 338F degrees which is the melting point for sugar. [Actually 370F but there are some other things going on here] Ask any one who makes fudge, it takes higher than boiling to melt sugar. Real melted sucrose coats each micro / balled grain of KNO3 and gives a full reaction right out of the pot, no drying necessary.

IF the mixture turns light brown the sugar is being heated too long and is starting to caramelize. Caramelized sugar will not react with KNO3 as it is a stable molecule. A little golden is ok, darker brown is wasted KNO3.
It is white and I followed the recipe as written. If it doesn't preform well I can still run it through a ball mill, I suppose.


Note: a drop of ethylene glycol, NOT propylene glycol antifreeze will help the melting

Sugar works but Vit C is more powerful and not hydroscopic, try it instead. It doesn' have to be cooked with all the other problems

the problem is that Vit C, from what I can find costs more than the end of season sale price, of the black powder I am trying to replace.

[delmar]

OK, I got home from work and loaded the sucker up and did a test fire. It is time for me to admit that this powder is not working for me in it's current form. I put on the percussion cap and fired. The powder did not ignite. Put on another cap and fired, still nothing. I did the trick where you put a grain or so of BP behind the nipple, and it boomed like a mutha!

Test two
I took a pestle and ground up enough for one load into a finer powder. The results were exactly the same. Two percussion caps fired... nothing. add a little BP behind the nipple. Works like a charm! It seems like the powder has enough energy to do the trick, but it is to hard to ignite! I guess the ball mill is the next stop.

[delmar]

Turns out it is not quite dry, is the problem. Or at least one of the problems. The last time I loaded the gun I tamped the ramrod down extra hard and I saw a little moisture coming out!

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Having read all this I have to say Yes it MAY/ COULD be dangerous...
But it sure is good that over the years individuals have been willing to do the uncommon & take calculated risks... Like the MOON, Underwater exploration, Cross the praries, make a stand at the Alamo, Decide Bastonge would not fall, Hold Wake Island for an impossible 3 weeks.... Leave Europe in leaking ships to found a NEW country with FREEDOM to make Black Powder.

[delmar]

Turns out it is not quite dry, is the problem. Or at least one of the problems. The last time I loaded the gun I tamped the ramrod down extra hard and I saw a little moisture coming out!

Two more days in the food dehydrator, and the #11 percussion cap still won't set it off. I'll let you know when I try another recipe.

[windrider919]

read the previous posts:

a) the courser the crystals the harder to ignite

b) the sugar must be melted to surround each particle of KNO3 for complete combustion

c) white powder is hydroscopic: IE: it picks up atmospheric moisture in hours and when wet takes a lot to ignite. It can be ignited with a booster like above and then will still burn with quite a bit of force.

Honestly, I did not mention it before but I freeze dry the 'cookies' before granulation with an old refrigerator compressor used as a vacuum pump and a pressure cooker modified to be a vacuum vessel and put it in the freezer {hole drilled into freezer compartment for vac line} as a vacuum is pulled for a couple days. I also have a lb of desiccant too to help. I then crush the cookies and screen. Then I dip the grains in lacquer drain n dry which water proofs them (unless there is a pinhole in the coating which makes that grain mush). As stated before, I store with a small desiccant pouch inside each container to keep pulling any moisture out or get any that leaks in. I load the cartridges, using magnum primers and shoot them within a couple days.

I only did this to prove I could. I regularly / usually shoot smokeless. Making your own white powder is A LOT OF WORK and would only really be worth it if there was no other source. I did it and could still do it only as a curiosity. It also IS NOT CHEAPER than regular Pyrodex[etc] or real BP. I still make candy fuel for my rocket hobby so all the equipment I built to make white powder is used for that. Remember above when I said that I pulled a vac on the candy fuel element to expand out any bubbles. well I just let the vacuum pump keep running for a while to pull out any moisture still there and then I store the elements in a sealed plastic food storage box with more desiccant crystals. It only comes out of the box to be loaded into the motor and then it gets shot off that day. Before it has time to pick up moisture and turn into mush. The hassle of all this is why I am switching to epoxy/KNO3 which has a higher deltaV energy level anyway.

[Nate1778]

I actually made some a few months back using Willow Charcoal. After corning it, non pressed it actually worked quite well out of my 58 .44 and .36 Navy. It required full chambers to get the bang the same as Goex but it worked to my very surprise. Its easy to make and if you do things correctly its no more dangerous then handling any other "powder". I use the ball mill method.

[perotter]

read the previous posts:

a) the courser the crystals the harder to ignite

b) the sugar must be melted to surround each particle of KNO3 for complete combustion

c) white powder is hydroscopic: IE: it picks up atmospheric moisture in hours and when wet takes a lot to ignite. It can be ignited with a booster like above and then will still burn with quite a bit of force.

Honestly, I did not mention it before but I freeze dry the 'cookies' before granulation with an old refrigerator compressor used as a vacuum pump and a pressure cooker modified to be a vacuum vessel and put it in the freezer {hole drilled into freezer compartment for vac line} as a vacuum is pulled for a couple days. I also have a lb of desiccant too to help. I then crush the cookies and screen. Then I dip the grains in lacquer drain n dry which water proofs them (unless there is a pinhole in the coating which makes that grain mush). As stated before, I store with a small desiccant pouch inside each container to keep pulling any moisture out or get any that leaks in. I load the cartridges, using magnum primers and shoot them within a couple days.

I only did this to prove I could. I regularly / usually shoot smokeless. Making your own white powder is A LOT OF WORK and would only really be worth it if there was no other source. I did it and could still do it only as a curiosity. It also IS NOT CHEAPER than regular Pyrodex[etc] or real BP. I still make candy fuel for my rocket hobby so all the equipment I built to make white powder is used for that. Remember above when I said that I pulled a vac on the candy fuel element to expand out any bubbles. well I just let the vacuum pump keep running for a while to pull out any moisture still there and then I store the elements in a sealed plastic food storage box with more desiccant crystals. It only comes out of the box to be loaded into the motor and then it gets shot off that day. Before it has time to pick up moisture and turn into mush. The hassle of all this is why I am switching to epoxy/KNO3 which has a higher deltaV energy level anyway.

I'm glad that I've always followed the IMR/mil method. Yours is a lot work & it sounds like the doesn't work as well as the water ones. What was the tested fps of your's compared to bp?

[Charlie Sometimes]

Question.

Sugar is mostly carbon. I remember a chemistry class in Jr. High where the teacher poured sulfuric acid into a beaker that contained granulated sugar. The largest column of carbon I have ever seen started rising out of that beaker until one or both of the ingredients had been expended.

Could that pure carbon be used as one of the ingredients of homemade BP?

By reading all of these posts, it seems to me that the old timers made due with what they had, didn't matter how long it took (they needed it), and in the course of invention and discovery gained knowledge of what worked better each time. Hence you are using smokeless powders and other modern conglomerations, all with a new ingredient called "marketing" to end up where we are today and the earlier knowledge is now "lost" knowledge, or so some think.

To those that say something about a black market springing up if they ever outlaw it, or something to that effect- someone has got to know how to do it, and what works, BEFORE that happens, or else no SPRING for the "resistance". Long, cold winter for all if they ever do. Safety is out the window when that happens, and urgency is more important. There is none of this mamby-pamby stuff when your way of living and freedom is on the line.

[felix]

Worth a try, but safety first and foremost. However, ever try and get a gallon of H2SO4? See your local furniture stripper and do some sweet talk. You are going to use it to add H and S to your swimming pool!!!! That is the only way to get it without paperwork (that I know of). Forget going to a chemical wholesale house unless you know someone. ... felix

[delmar]

read the previous posts:
It's not that I didn't read your posts. I set out to follow a particular recipe. Once I started, there was no way I was going to change what I was doing until I was finished. So I finished and reported my results.


a) the courser the crystals the harder to ignite

b) the sugar must be melted to surround each particle of KNO3 for complete combustion

c) white powder is hydroscopic: IE: it picks up atmospheric moisture in hours and when wet takes a lot to ignite. It can be ignited with a booster like above and then will still burn with quite a bit of force.

Honestly, I did not mention it before but I freeze dry the 'cookies' before granulation with an old refrigerator compressor used as a vacuum pump and a pressure cooker modified to be a vacuum vessel and put it in the freezer {hole drilled into freezer compartment for vac line} as a vacuum is pulled for a couple days. I also have a lb of desiccant too to help. I then crush the cookies and screen. Then I dip the grains in lacquer drain n dry which water proofs them (unless there is a pinhole in the coating which makes that grain mush). As stated before, I store with a small desiccant pouch inside each container to keep pulling any moisture out or get any that leaks in. I load the cartridges, using magnum primers and shoot them within a couple days.

I only did this to prove I could. I regularly / usually shoot smokeless. Making your own white powder is A LOT OF WORK and would only really be worth it if there was no other source. I did it and could still do it only as a curiosity. It also IS NOT CHEAPER than regular Pyrodex[etc] or real BP. I had to pay $18/lbs for the Pyrodex I bought the other day. The KNO3 I bought to make this was a little under $7/lbs and sugar is a lot less. If I can find a recipe that works, with minor modifications it seems like it might be quite worthwhile to make more, untill I can find a good deal on BP at the end of hunting season.




I still make candy fuel for my rocket hobby so all the equipment I built to make white powder is used for that. Remember above when I said that I pulled a vac on the candy fuel element to expand out any bubbles. well I just let the vacuum pump keep running for a while to pull out any moisture still there and then I store the elements in a sealed plastic food storage box with more desiccant crystals. It only comes out of the box to be loaded into the motor and then it gets shot off that day. Before it has time to pick up moisture and turn into mush. The hassle of all this is why I am switching to epoxy/KNO3 which has a higher deltaV energy level anyway.

[delmar]

Test #2
KNO3 mixed 50/50 by volume with powdered sugar. Mixed it in the coffee grinder for 60 sec. this is an ultra fine powder. The first burn I did was easier to light than the previous batch, but when I tried to make a video it took a bit to light. This powder does appear to burn hotter than the first. Could be because I used powdered sugar instead of granular, which would weigh less. This would mean I have a higher % of KNO3 in this batch. I guess I really should break out the scales
There were a couple of small "pearls so I am guessing my sugar was a little moist, so I'm going to put it in the dehydrator for a while before I try it in my gun.
http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/post/4137519/?from=/my-radar

The coffee grinder I bought was a Hamilton Beach. $15 at Walmart. This model lets you press the button and it goes for 10 to 30 seconds (depending on the setting) so I didn't have to rig the switch to stand back!

[perotter]

Worth a try, but safety first and foremost. However, ever try and get a gallon of H2SO4? See your local furniture stripper and do some sweet talk. You are going to use it to add H and S to your swimming pool!!!! That is the only way to get it without paperwork (that I know of). Forget going to a chemical wholesale house unless you know someone. ... felix

There are certain strong drain cleaners that H2SO4 is the active ingredient. Something like 20-30%. Haven't bought any lately. Around here ACE hardware has them.

[perotter]

Question.

Sugar is mostly carbon. I remember a chemistry class in Jr. High where the teacher poured sulfuric acid into a beaker that contained granulated sugar. The largest column of carbon I have ever seen started rising out of that beaker until one or both of the ingredients had been expended.

Could that pure carbon be used as one of the ingredients of homemade BP?

By reading all of these posts, it seems to me that the old timers made due with what they had, didn't matter how long it took (they needed it), and in the course of invention and discovery gained knowledge of what worked better each time. Hence you are using smokeless powders and other modern conglomerations, all with a new ingredient called "marketing" to end up where we are today and the earlier knowledge is now "lost" knowledge, or so some think.

To those that say something about a black market springing up if they ever outlaw it, or something to that effect- someone has got to know how to do it, and what works, BEFORE that happens, or else no SPRING for the "resistance". Long, cold winter for all if they ever do. Safety is out the window when that happens, and urgency is more important. There is none of this mamby-pamby stuff when your way of living and freedom is on the line.

If the carbon is porous it would work well.

Nitrocellulose lacquers are available, but expense to use to make a propellant. And to get to clean one should add about 10%, by weight, KNO3.

But, ping pong ball are made from nitrocellulose. And if one buys 5 to 10 gross of them at a time, they or about $6 a pound. They do have something in that slows the burn rate down enough that they can't be used directly as a powder.

A few week ago I made a few 100 grains of a ping pong ball powder that works in a .38 Special. 50% ping pong ball by weight. The other 50% was ammonium nitrate/potassium nitrate/ammonium dichromate. Grained it 1.5mm x 1.5mm x 0.01 inch. The mix of metric & US is because the powder cutter is imported.

FWIW, ammonium dichromate is a burn rate cat for ammonium nitrate. Plain old table salt may work as good or better. May real interest is in ammide powders. The NC one is just one of what I've got working.

[delmar]

I ground a bunch of vitamin C tabs into powder and ground a tablespoon of that with a tablespoon of KNO3 didn't seem to work. Could be the tabs are moist or it could be that they contain a lot of inert stuff. I'm going to try drying it before I give up.

[windrider919]

perotter - I did not chrongraph any white powder loads but you have to reduce the amount because if used same volume as BP you get a bigger bang.

delmar- tablets have filler and binders that must be removed. The only way I know is to desolve, strain through a coffee filter and dry back to crystals. Also, the correct proportions for KNO3/ sucrose is 65% KNO3 to 35% sugar. Same with Vit C white powder.

On cost, pharmaceutical or human use grade vit C is very expensive because of certified purity. Totally un-economical. Buy industrial grade for a fraction of the price. I bought a 100 lbs in 50 lb sacks for $78.00 [per 50 lbs]three years ago on ebay

KNO3 from;
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/13-0-46004.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/13-0-46008.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/13-0-46009.jpg


Note:Almost all Chinese ping-pong balls are still nitrocellulose. If made in USA or Europe they are plastic. I dissolve them in lacquer thinner and use in my motor ignitors to coat the nichrome wire element

[delmar]

delmar- tablets have filler and binders that must be removed. The only way I know is to desolve, strain through a coffee filter and dry back to crystals. Also, the correct proportions for KNO3/ sucrose is 65% KNO3 to 35% sugar. Same with Vit C white powder.

I ran that Vitaman C/ KNO3 powder through an auto drip coffee maker. I have a bowl of that souution sitting in the food dehydrator. I suppose the water will evaporate out in a few days to a week. The straight C tabs powder I ran through the coffee maker and 1/2 cup of it cooked down to a little over a tablespoon. I will powder that again when it drys and see what I've got.

[Charlie Sometimes]

IIRC, the carbon made from adding H2SO4 to granulated sugar was very porous- and would have been good to blend with the sulphur and salt peter.
Saw a "Mtyth Busters" show where they build a Civil War era rocket using parrifin mixed with powdered carbon, and Nitrous Oxide. It worked. Parafin is a petroleum distilate- any carbon there?

H2SO4- battery acid. None of the so-called automobile "maintenance-free" batteries are perfectly sealed. Drain some old ones.

[lavenatti]

Sorbitol (the sugar substitute) can be used with the potassium nitrate in the same proportions to produce a similiar propellant. Sorbitol can take a higher temperature than sugar before it starts to turn brown, it will also produce a non-hygroscopic propellant.

It may cost a little more but who wants soggy bullets?

[delmar]

Sorbitol (the sugar substitute) can be used with the potassium nitrate in the same proportions to produce a similiar propellant. Sorbitol can take a higher temperature than sugar before it starts to turn brown, it will also produce a non-hygroscopic propellant.

It may cost a little more but who wants soggy bullets?

I'm oly going to be using this in my muzzleloader so keeping the powder dry until I shoot should be easier.

[preparehandbook]

Both reenactors and model rocketeers routinely make black powder safely and the rocket folks do it with children. It is not difficult nor significantly more dangerous than using a blackpowder firearm. What people seem to be missing is that blackpowder is mixed, versus produced through a chemical reaction, so there are apprpriate cautions mostly related to friction and static.

If a person cannot follow directions and safety cautions to safely mix blackpowder then they are probably incapable of safely handling a blackpowder firearm.

That being said, I don't make it because I live in california and here they'll call you a terrorist for having a garden inside city limits. (sad but true).

[preparehandbook]

IIRC, the carbon made from adding H2SO4 to granulated sugar was very porous- and would have been good to blend with the sulphur and salt peter.
Saw a "Mtyth Busters" show where they build a Civil War era rocket using parrifin mixed with powdered carbon, and Nitrous Oxide. It worked. Parafin is a petroleum distilate- any carbon there?

H2SO4- battery acid. None of the so-called automobile "maintenance-free" batteries are perfectly sealed. Drain some old ones.

Come on, it's network television, they don't teach you to make rockets. I have a friend who works on the Mythbuster's production staff, the show is scripted. The experiments results are decided before filming and "testing" begins. Many times recipes are changed (ala magyver) to make sure they won't work. My friend is always surprised when people ask him about a particular show and he has to explain that the episode was done with CG, special effects and "movie magic". It is important to remember that mythbusters is a fictional show that should be taken to be as real as superman.

[leftiye]

One thing the warnings don't explain is how hot the stuff (black powder) burns. In the open air at three feet a charge of 3 or 4 hundred grains will blow the hat off of your head and give you second degree burns on the face as well as taking a lot of your hair with it. Body parts that are closer can be charred. (you will dissappear monentarily in the cloud of smoke and your glasses will save your eyesight)

[Springfield]

All the cowboy mounted shooters and re-enactors I hang out with make their own blanks but they use commercially bought BP. Model rocketeers also buy their engines pre-made, unless you are talking about something much more complicated than the Estes type model rockets that have been around forever and are sold in hobby shops.

[preparehandbook]

Rocketeers do buy their engines, but there's also a whole hobby that revolves around building motors (some are called sugar rockets). I went to one of their events and they had a presentation on making engines, even one's made out of crushed candy bars (and other stuff).

Same thing for reenactors, went to a thing (hoedown? powow?) and they were making several kinds of powder and rolling shot etc. They actually demonstrated the effects of open air combustion of blackpowder during their safety demonstration, along with friction and static detonation.

I have less than zero desire to try any of this. I'm grateful I survived college chemistry in the era of metallic sodium and triiodide with all my fingers. I'm just saying if someone wants to try it they should seek out folks who are familiar with the laws and safety of hobby manufacture of blackpowder.

[ReloaderEd]

Gentlemen: A very dangerous hobby. The problem with BP is it burns completely because it is at its flash point. That means one oz of it will be consumed at fast as a pound or a ton of it. Static electricity can set it off quite easily. If you confine it in a storage locker that is sealed be careful you can lose your entire dwelling.
Dupont in West Virginia made alot of blasing powder and black powder for cannons and rifles. Ocee the ingrediatns were mized together, they were wet down and made into cakes which were dried usually in the sun. Then put in wooden barrel tumblers with lead balls inside to break the cakes up into granuals and sifted for size. It was still a very dangerous process. It like putting nitro on stage coaches back then not knowing it reaches a flast point at a low warm or hot outside temperatures. Be safe, think about it!!

[waksupi]

Static electricity can set it off quite easily.

You may want to look at this, and reconsider that statement.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[square butte]

I was just about to post the same link. Lots of misconception about black powder and static electricity.

[EOD3]

You may want to look at this, and reconsider that statement.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

I think Ed might consider deleting the post before too many people see it.

[EOD3]

Hi fellas, as long as were talking about home made black, do any of you know a guy named Don McLean? He wrote a book called "Do-it-yourself gunpowder cookbook"

[cal50]

I have made some BP in the past that performed better than the Goex & Elephant brands I have used. The key to good BP is the charcoal and ball milling and pressing properly is a must.
I have a very good ball mill that I milled my KNO3 for 3 hours,add sulfur mill another hour then add charcoal and mill a final hour. All 3 ingredients were milled fine before starting the milling process. Once you powder is milled similar to black flour you have to press it to obtain the same density as commercial powder. I used a press die from 3" PVC with pipe clamps and my hydraulic shop press. Once pressed and out of the die it sounds like china. Let it dry then you have to "corn" the powder and sift it for granule size.

The fastest powder comes from low density charcoal. Balsa, willow,grape vine make some FAST BP powder. I have cooked my own willow charcoal and its messy but fun.

Some good reads-

http://www.fogoforum.us/blackpowder.php

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/blackpowder.html


Have fun and be safe.
With the increased cost of powder rolling your own is a nice option and a fun project.

[delmar]

Hi fellas, as long as were talking about home made black, do any of you know a guy named Don McLean? He wrote a book called "Do-it-yourself gunpowder cookbook"

Didn't he sing "American Pie"?

[Linstrum]

Hey, Ric, thanks for posting the site with the spark experiment photos. I have really gotten into it with some guys in the local gun shop over this. I don't blame them for being adamant that static sparks will ignite powder because it sure seems like it would.

rl876

[preparehandbook]

Hey, Ric, thanks for posting the site with the spark experiment photos. I have really gotten into it with some guys in the local gun shop over this. I don't blame them for being adamant that static sparks will ignite powder because it sure seems like it would.rl876

I would have guessed it would, and undoubtably would have argued such before seeing that test. A test which I I have no desire to replicate..

[Bert2368]

Reloader Ed, you might REALLY want to delete that last post. Every darn bit of it.

I handle BP by the ton, mostly as fireworks lifting and burst charges. I have studied the history of the craft and I have made it from scratch, including making my own charcoals, even tried old fashioned methods of extracting nitrates from my compost pile and synthesizing/purifying salt petre from them.

Pre industrial peasants made their own BP in many countries for centuries. With the beginning of modern scientific methods, mixtures and performance were finally optimized in the 1800's. A good bit of that relates to consolidation and graining.

Cal50 and EOD3 know wherof they speak. It is quite possible for a person with some knowledge and experience to make high performance BP for themselves. What will be much more difficult will be making a uniform product from batch to batch, but BP is more forgiving in this regard than smokeless-

And yes, making and handling BP carries certain risks. Stupidity, clumsiness or ignorance will amplify those risks.

As far as BATFE is concerned, you can make and use your own explosives if you don't sell, give away or otherwise distribute them and they are stored legally. Storage will likely be your main issue. State and local laws are a different matter, you'll have to work that out on your own!

[cal50]

Gentlemen: A very dangerous hobby. The problem with BP is it burns completely because it is at its flash point. That means one oz of it will be consumed at fast as a pound or a ton of it. Static electricity can set it off quite easily. If you confine it in a storage locker that is sealed be careful you can lose your entire dwelling.
Dupont in West Virginia made alot of blasing powder and black powder for cannons and rifles. Ocee the ingrediatns were mized together, they were wet down and made into cakes which were dried usually in the sun. Then put in wooden barrel tumblers with lead balls inside to break the cakes up into granuals and sifted for size. It was still a very dangerous process. It like putting nitro on stage coaches back then not knowing it reaches a flast point at a low warm or hot outside temperatures. Be safe, think about it!!



Confined powder fires will usually rupture the enclosure which causes the blast effect (if enough powder is present). Black powder transfers fire quickly and that made it an excellent priming charge for navy shells or fuse assys. Its safe to handle with common sense and caution. Careless people will have an accident.

I vaguely remember the BP plant explosion. If I remember correctly it was the corning mill area where it initiated. Corning is the most hazardous operation in BP production. The fine flammable dust is similar to black flour and VERY flammable. I still have a can of Elephant brand 4F. It's similar to corning mill dust. I also made BP rocket motors a long time ago. Core burning engines need a slower BP than end burners. Adjusting the sulfur content, milling time, KNO3 quality and the most important ingredient charcoal and you can change the burning rate considerably with one variable.

I got fancy and graphite coated a batch and you could not honestly tell it from Goex. Using a slug weight and doing lift tests my powder performed better than the Goex. I have a Quiegly 45-90 that I would love to try my BP in . I just cant believe the prices for a LB of BP now.

[EOD3]

Cal50 briefly mentions one of the ways to time-travel using BP. If you are doing ANYTHING that results in dust suspended in the air, one static electricity spark will ruin your whole day. This is true with any flammable dust particles. Flammable extends to a lot of stuff you wouldn't think would burn. Silo launching (grain dust) used to be fairly common. Back in the dark ages, connecting a ground wire to containers of BP (or other fine grain propellant) was absolutely mandatory. Dust in motion creates an incredible static charge.

Black powder "burns" rapidly but does not detonate. You get an explosion when the gas produced by the burning powder exceeds the capacity of its container. This kind of explosion is referred to as a "mechanical detonation".

Every once in a while someone proved this, and the friction sensitivity characteristics by leaving a couple of grains in the threads and screwing on the end-cap... :shock:

[texasmac]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/RealTexasMac/MakingmyownBlackPowder.jpg

[cal50]

Dust explosions are impressive. Silo's , flour mills and my grand mother coal stove when I stoked it up WAY too much and the black cloud of coal dust flashed. I was about 11 years old and I remember it like yesterday.