The 7.5x55 Swiss

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I've just purchaced a K-31 Swiss in excellent condition - all matching numbers and the soldier's name it was issued to under the butt-plate.

I know a few things about the rifle and how to load for these military outfits but naturally I don't know it all!

I'm requesting the membership's input about successful cast bullet loads and techniques for feeding this particular design. Please to include any special treatment of bullets and diameters such that they will enter the throat consistently and accurately.

Thanks in advance,
Forrest

[Storydude]

K31's are each unique. what works in mine may not work in yours.

I never used any cast in mine, but45G Varget under a 168 pill worked great for mine. OAL must be changed to allow the tight throat.

[rmaster14145]

i like a 150gn (308) jacketed bullet over 30gn of H4895.

for cast i have been shooting a .313, 115gn LFP over 9gn of unique

i have some 170gn .309s over 7.5gn of unique but i have yet to try them .

rm

[twotoescharlie]

get a bump die from Smokem Joe, as these rifles have a almost nonexistant throat.

TTC

[Calamity Jake]

First thing, clean all copper then slug it. You will find it to be about .297-8 bore by
.307-8 groove.
I have 2 K31's, both slug to the above Ø's, in one I use 311291 that casts .298 on the nose by .311 body, the .298 nose will not fit in the bore, I gas check and size to .3095(my smallest 30 cal. sizer)lube with FL and load in cases worked with Redding dies over 18.0 Blue Dot.

FYI, the K31 action design fired with low vol. loads(cast or J'ed) will shoot to the right, if loads are worked up to 2000-2200 then there is enough windage adjustment in the front sight to bring POI to POA @ 100 yards.

With the above load and my 59YO eyes I can put 5 into about 3.5 inches @ 100. I know it will shoot a lot better than I can see.

[45 2.1]

I would suggest you take a lead throat slug and see what you are dealing with. That rifle does not have a standard throat. I think you will find a long chamber neck with a shoulder at the throat, what little you will find. It has an abrupt entrance into the rifling. The RCBS 308-165-Sil has worked fine for fit and reasonable accuracy with Unique for me. These shoot fairly well with cast, but are not the equal of the earlier versions.

[Maven]

Forrest, Search this site's archives as there are many posts on the K-31's. You also may want to get in touch with Joe Wiest (Smokemjoe here) and have him make you a bump die* once you know bore and throat dimensions of your rifle. K-31's handle a variety of CB designs well, but some, e.g. Saeco #315 and RG-4, exceptionally so.


*This one swages the nose down to allow greater OAL. E.g., prior to obtaining the die from Joe I had to seat Ly. #311291 to ~2.70" OAL in my K-31's to get the bolt to go into battery. With Joe's die, I can size the nose if needed and the first driving band enough to allow me to seat to 2.90" OAL.

[Bret4207]

Not cast, but the GP11 Swiss ammo is some fine target ammo. I was amazed that even this half blind shooter could keep 5 in just over an inch with the GP11 at 100 yards. I used my favorite "V" shaped aiming point and punched the tip of the "V" out with 10 shots- just under 1.375 inches!!

[FAsmus]

OK everyone;

Thanks for taking the time to write.

In my initial experimentation with dummy rounds loaded with various cast bullets I had already determined that the throat was unusally square and close to the case mouth.

As you say this was easily fixed by use of a nose sizing die - mine is a Ed Wosika Coaxisizing die that not only sizes the nose but tapers the first band so as to enter the bore consistently every time .. I've used the Coax dies a lot and they really do help accuracy but I dislike all the extra procedures necessary to get my bullets prepared for loading.

There was no way a 0.301 nose would fit into the muzzel but the origin of rifling at the breech end is worn enough to accept anything under 0.3005, which happens to be the Coax die's size .. so what if the bullet gets rifling cuts all the way to the nose by the time it exits the barrel?

For initial testing I plan on RCBS 30-150-GC since it is short enough to avoid the bullet base extending into the powder space.

I did search the site for other M31 material before posting my request. It seems to me that there are lots of mild-to-squib loads being used. I plan on the standard old things like 21 grains 4759 or 30 grains Varget for starters and I'll post on this thread for those of you who might be interested to see what happens.

I plan on using the rifle for long range shooting; Things like 395 to 830 yards here in my home town rifle range.

Good evening,
Forrest

[runfiverun]

27 grs of h-322 with a filler makes mine happy with the rcbs 165 silh and no alterations to the nose.
the body of the boolit sits in the neck and the nose engraves just enough to keep it straight.

[FAsmus]

Runfiverun;

I don't have a 165 grain RCBS at all but a fellow shooter loaned me his 30-150-FN yesterday - good for initial testing. Things like buying a SAECO 316 or something will have to wait.

The intent here will be to find a good load to shoot practice at our 350 yard Offhand target - even the blunt 30/30 RCBS should work for this.

As for fillers in a bottle-neck case; no thanks. I load and shoot thousnads of rounds of fillered ammunition in straight cases and I know how its done - I just draw the line at the bottle necked design.

Good morning,
Forrest

[KCSO]

The Lee 165 spire point bullet that was made for the SKS also works well in the K 31. I seat mine to just lightly engrave the rifling at the nose and back it with 12 grains of Red Dot and spark it off with LP primers. The bullet is sized to 309 in the body and no nose sizing is necessary. These will group well enough to win most military rifle matches, my iron sight groups are averaging under 2 1/2" at 100 yards and i saved one target that had 5 in 1 3/4" c-c at the 100 yard mark.

[leadman]

I also have the RCBS 30-150-SP mould and this boolit works very well in my K-31s. Never had some of the problems that others have mentioned.

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

I got up early to beat the heat and ran off 200 RCBS 30-150-FN this morning. As the design is intended for 30/30 they measure pretty close to what I was hoping for, going 0.2995 on the noses and 0.3085 on the body.

These dimentions will allow me to shoot them without going through all that time-consuming Coaxisizing stuff addressed previously in this thread.

Right now I'm waiting for delivery of the Serbian 7.5x55 cases I ordered from Graf.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The day has gone well - I cast up the trial run of the RCBS bullets described above and then, time seeming to be on my side I pulled the bullets from a box of Hornady commercial 7.5x55, threw away the powder, lubed and loaded the fresh-cast bullets over 22 grains 4198 into the cases thus made available and headed for the range for initial testing.

For just 20 shots in an untried rifle things went OK. The first two groups were strung somewhat but the next two tightened up quite a bit with the 4th one going into 5 x 2.320 with (naturally) the issue sights.

The groups aquired show what I call indications that the rifle "wants" to shoot. That is, the typical five shot group would show four good and one flyer. One such example today had three holes touching. When this happens I know that eventually I'll find what caused the flyers, eliminate it and go to shooting consistently as well as the rifle is capable.

I looked for and found three spent bullets from this shooting. My! they certainly showed complete mushrooming; nothing much left but the gas check shank and mushed over remains. ~ Pretty soft alloy ~

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The K31 has been up to the range with 80 test rounds since last addition to the thread.

Things continued as per the post just previous to this one: The rifle indicated it "wanted" to shoot by giving me the occasional group as tight as I can hold with as-issued sights and then tossing semi-wild flyers with good sight picture.

I tired various components and sizing as per the intent specified in the thread. Some were definitely better than others and I think I have at least a preliminary idea about what is going to work as regards the bullets, sizing and seating stuff.

However! I pretty much shoot a rifle first and then (if necessary) look it over. It was obviously time to inspect the rifle thoroughly.

Upon disassembly I was first impressed with the fine way Swiss put this rifle together and then amazed at finding what I feel is the reason it fired groups the way it did in spite of the overall good engineering and design of the piece;

The recoil lug initially showed no contact with the wood at all. In fact there was some loose foreign material in the place where normally you'd find only the impression of the steel against the wood.

I got curious once I proved that this was in fact the case; How much of a gap is there? I asked myself, so, I installed progressively thicker shims between the lug and the rear portion of the stock where it would normally fit up against.

I quit when I reached 0.125 gap between wood and steel in this critical area and still no contact - there was no point really - over an eighth of an inch is such a gap that a semi-major rework is indicated anyway.

My question to the members is: Has anyone else seen this sort of problem in their K31s? If so how did they fix it? How did the fix work out?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[twotoescharlie]

would suggest going to the" Swiss rifle forums" as they have articles pertaining to the swiss bedding and accuracy tips. some as simple as loosening and tightening a screw.

TTC

[runfiverun]

i bedded mine.
i have been watching this go along as i have that rcbs 150-***/c boolit also, and my wifes 0-6 will shoot it better than any other booit i've tried so far.
does it feed from the magazine for you?
i think that it would, it feeds in my bolt action 30-30 fine.
if you wanna just see quick if it's that use some hot glue for a quick bed just in that area,with some car wax for a release agent.

[35 Whelen]

Regarding the bedding, it has been my habit (right or wrong)when bedding rifles to relieve the front, sides and especially the bottom of the recoil lug. I learned this in my Dad's Gunsmith Kinks book and it's always worked for me. I tuned and bedded my '53 K-31 into a match rifle and bedded it as described. I also left quite a bit of upward pressure under the barrel at the end of the forend.
As far as flyers go, for me at least, they just seem to be a way of life. In fact, in most of my 10 shot groups, I expect about 80% "success", with typically a couple of flyers. Sometimes I have 3 flyer, and sometimes only one. And incidently, I weigh all of the bullets that I cast for High Power matches. They are then sorted and grouped with 20 of exactly the same weight being set aside for Slow Prone, then if possible 20 of identical weight for Rapid Prone. I'm not quite as particular for Rapid Sitting and Offhand, but even these bullets vary no more than +/- .3 gr.
Here are a few groups fired from my '53 K31. Maybe this will give you an idea of what to expect.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/DSC_0005.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/June09match1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/June09match2.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/June09match3.jpg

Good luck,
35W

[Bob S]

Good afternoon Forrest,

The "recoil lug" isn't. It's more appropriately called a "bedding block". The bottom of that block (only) contacts the stock, or a metal shim placed there to regulate the pressure at the fore-end tip. The recoil thrust surface in a military K31 is the back of the trigger housing. If you study the receiver bedding carefully, you'll see that the only places that metal contacts wood are the bottom of said bedding block, the recoil surface at the back of the trigger housing, and the tang. Nothing else touches wood. All of the gun scribes and pharisees seem to think that the K31 barrel should be free floated. They are wrong. Looking again at the military bedding, the only contact point that keeps the barreled action from moving in yaw is the contact with the barrel at the front of the stock. It acts like a Vee block. The Swiss armorers used different thicknesses of shims to regulate the pressue there, not to remove it. The military bedding system is a little odd, but it required absolutely no hand fitting of wood to metal ... the only semi-skilled labor required in asembly of the barreled action to stcok was the choice of thickness of the shim ... I believe there were three choices.

If you are interested in keeping the carbine legal for US-style "as issued" competition, there are some limited tweaks you can do; if you don't care about the US CMP rules, you are limited only by your imagination (and good engineering judgement!). First make certain that your stock isn't warped. A lot of them are. Just remove the bands and handguard and see what happens to the front of the stock. If it looks like, this, start looking for a replacement:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31_warped_stock.jpg

If the stock remains straight and pushed up on the end of the barrel with about 9-10 lbs force, you're good. If the contact at the end of the stock seems light, remove the metal shim that is under the bedding block.

Replace the handguard and bands and try to push the front of the barrel up and out of the Vee block. If there is insufficuent clearance to move the barrel up (and there probably isn't), remove some of the wood from the handguard. Repeat until you can push the barrel up at least .020" or so. The barrel should reseat itself once you stop pushing up on it.

Check for clearance from the rest of the barrel. Remove the handguard. With modelling clay, make a few small "snakes" about 1/16 in diameter, and place these on the top of the exposed barrel, cicumferentially. Make certain at least one of these will be under the rear band. Replace the handguard and bands and tighten down the screws; remove the handguard again and note if any of the clay snakes have been totally smooshed ... if so, relieve wood, and repeat until you have about 1/16" clearance between the barrel and the handguard.

Next, make certain that the handguard rabbet will slide under its mounting surface without levering the barrel up. Place the handguard on the stock about 1" forward of its normal position, and slide it back to seat under the rear sight base. If you have to lift the front of the handguard to get that little tab to seat under the rear sight, you will need to remove some material from the tab, or sand the bottom of the entire handguard. If you need to sand the bottom of the handguard, you may need to recheck barrel clearance again.

Having done the above, the barrel will free of all unintended stresses; and barreled action will be stable in the yaw axis.

Regarding "tuning" the rear bedding screw ... if the action was properly bedded, there would be uniform contact in the Z direction (up and down) at the bottom of the bedding block and the tang. That would be the ideal, but as discussed, the Swiss only paid attention to the height of the bedding block. In most cases, the bedding is not uniform fore and aft. With the only the front action screw installed, the action will be sitting only on the bottom of the bedding block, and the tang will be dangling in thin air ... It may only be .005 or .010" of thin air ... but even that little isn't good. Now when you tighten down the rear bedding screw, you are trying to lever up the whole barreled action; the bedding block is the fulcrum. In extreme cases, the tang can actually become cracked. If you experiment with the torque (or lack of it) of the rear screw, you may find a point where the action is just stable without trying to rock it around the bedding block. This is a weakness of the bedding system, but if you want to stay "as-issued" you're stuck with it: you can't add shims back there because the Swiss armorers never did that.

If you're not interested in keeping the carbine "as-issued", you can epoxy bed it as you would a Springfield or a Mauser and get great results. You may still find that the relatively light barrel needs some pressure at the front to give the best groups, but if you epoxy bed the receiver so it is stable, you at least have the freedom to try free floating to see if it works for your barrel. One enterprising shooter (I think he postes here sometimes) bedded the under side of the rear sight base, so that would be the "vee block" point to stabilze the action in yaw, and he has gotten phenominal results ... but I don't think he shoots cast in it. I recently put a Swiss Products damper on a K31 that has been bedded in a Boyd's sporter stock (no longer made) ... and it improved the balance of the rifle, which is why I put it there. It didn't hurt grouping, and it might have improved it slightly. The jury is still out on that one; but that's another option to consider for non-"as-issued" carbines.

These are some pix of the bedding of my K31 CISM rifle (7.62x51). It is "conventionally bedded" with Marine Tex, and despite the erroded throat, it is still shooting high Master (not High Master) class scores for me on reduced range courses with the Ideal 311291.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31CISMfrontbedding.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31CISMrearbedding.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/CISMK314.jpg

The heavy barrel on this one really is free-floated. Note the the tang had to be shortened in order to use the close-set vertical pistol grip. That leaves insufficient wood between the trigger housing and the rear bedding screw, so the military recoil surface could not be used as such ... the "conventional bedding" that uses the bedding block as a recoil surface was a necessity in this case.

Hope this information is useful to you ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[yodar]

Re: CB in 7.55 Swiss. I am still skeptical at my friends' assertions the the Lee 312-155-2R will work in light of another casters view that the bullet has to read .301" 0.17" up from the case mouth to fit right (it doesnt). I've about decided to use the little 134gr 311410 from Lyman which you see here in my .30 carbine loads.

It DEFINITELY wont hit the chamber mouth ;>)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1229/6309647/21832681/365571438.jpg

[35 Whelen]

As always, excellent post, Bob. I've just ordered another K-31 from which I intend to build another High Power rifle. I'll definitely try the bedding techniques you described.
35W

[FAsmus]

Bob;

Thanks for the comprehensive information on the K31s bedding system. You have addressed all points of my curiosity about why it was made as it was in the first place and how to go about tuning it up to shoot as well as possible. Wonderful stuff.

I have a certain interest in shooting this rifle in the CBA Postals "As Issued" and so will follow up on the armory’s version for making the system work as intended. This may take some time but, I got the rifle with the intention to learn about it according to its design, not to hammer it into my own idea of "proper" as per a standard Mauser type epoxy job and your information will make this possible.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[rvpilot76]

Bob where did you get that stock? I've got a K31 on the way, and I'd like to turn it into a match rifle very similar to what you have there. Which sights have you got on your K31? Any other details about your K31 that you'd like to share?

[Bob S]

The rifle pictured is a CISM rifle (300 Meter Standard Rifle, repeater, also called an "Army Rifle") that was built by Grunig and Elmiger around 1969. The action started out as a military carbine manufactured in 1954. When I bought it, it was missing the bolt, magazine, rear sight and buttplate, so I got it for a song. It is chambered in 7.62x51 (308 Win) The wood looked like it had been bouncing around in the back of Bubba's pick up truck. I had all the parts needed to put it back on the firintg line. The rear sight is a PNW.

Sadly, no one that I know of currently makes any aftermarket stocks that are suitable for match rifles. Boyd's made a duplicate of the military stock and a "sporter" stock, but they are no longer made, or they are made in infrequent "limited runs".

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[35 Whelen]

Boyd's made a duplicate of the military stock and a "sporter" stock, but they are no longer made, or they are made in infrequent "limited runs".

FYI, I checked Boyds site and they show the military stock and handguard as does Nurmich up in West Hurley, NY. I wish someone made a "beefier", target type stock, but doubt that will ever happen.
35W

[FAsmus]

35W;

Your pictures, with loading notes included, show what I would call in my own loading terminology "squib" or very light loads.

How did you arrive at these? In other words, did you test the typical levels of 4759, 4198 or Varget and find them lacking compared to the light loads of Bullseye?

With just the 80 rounds tested so far in this Swiss I have seen several groups in the area of 5x1.500 , 5x1.680 and so forth shooting 20.0 grains 4759 under the RCBS 30-150-FN .. This bullet gave best results ( I think ) because it is a 30/30 design, casting at 0.3090 x 0.3000 - and I shoot them as-cast.

I have not tested things like a Coaxisized 311284 yet since the bedding seems of primary concern at the moment - but I intend to do so.

One of the things we do here at my place is shoot at extended distances - once a rifle & load is proven at close range the usual next step is to move on out to 350 yards (our closest and "offhand" target) and by 10 steps to 834 yards. I hope to shoot the K31 out that far by the end of summer even though the lack of any windage in the sighting system will cause a certain care when I select the conditions on any particular day.

As I doubt 10 grains of Bullseye would carry that far - I'm interested.

Good evenig,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

Your pictures, with loading notes included, show what I would call in my own loading terminology "squib" or very light loads.

How did you arrive at these? In other words, did you test the typical levels of 4759, 4198 or Varget and find them lacking compared to the light loads of Bullseye?

First, I was given the NEI mould from which my bullets are cast. I realized right away that this mould cast good, consistent bullets. Since the bullet is a plain base design, I also reaized that velocities would need to be kept low. I'd read C.E. Harris' article on cast bullets in military rifles, so I started with 7.0 grs. of Bullseye and 8.0 grs. of Red Dot. Both loads shot fairly well, but the Bullseye load seemed a little better. After a match or two and some less than satisfactory results, I decided the problem might lie in the fact that my bullets were making the transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic before reachng the 100 yd. target. So I backed off the Bullseye load until my MV was sub-sonic, or right at 1100 fps. At the same time, I came to the realization that all that is required is that I poke a hole in the target. There are no extra points for burying a 25¢ MatchKing 3' into the backstop. This epiphany further fueled my desire for lower velocities.
My goal is to get my Expert card, then wring out my current load as best I can before moving to something faster. If and when I shoot at extended ranges, I'll switch to hotter loads with gas-checked bullets.
On a side note, Monday I did a little experimenting with AA5744 and jacketed bullets in my K31. With 20 grs. and a Sierra 155 gr. Palma, I got a 5-shot group measuring 1.1". Ten hornady 150 gr. FMJBT's with the same load grouped into 1.75". Thst should hold the 10-ring on an MR-31 target. I already know that the rifle will group GP-11 into less than 1.5" @ 100 yds., so I have that to fall back on if/when I shoot at extended ranges.
FYI, the cast bullet benchrest guys run their bullets at about 1700-1800 fps and shoot at 200 yds.
35W

[Bret4207]

Excellent thread gents! 35- I missed that those groups were PB, fine shooting!

BobS- As usual your post was extremely well done. Sure wish we could pick your brain more often.

[Calamity Jake]

35W;

I hope to shoot the K31 out that far by the end of summer even though the lack of any windage in the sighting system will cause a certain care when I select the conditions on any particular day.

Forrest

The front sight is adjustable for windage, it sets in a dovetail that angled across the barrel, moving it forward moves boolit impact the the left.

[Bob S]

35W;


even though the lack of any windage in the sighting system will cause a certain care when I select the conditions on any particular day.

Good evenig,
Forrest

I'll repost the windage adjustment instructions later ... can't access Photobucket from the DC office :(

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

I'm going to be real lazy and just link you to it.

http://collectorguns35625.yuku.com/topic/3467


Hope this helps ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

35W;

Roger your load developement information.

In my CB shooting I have departed from plainbase shooting except for all the shooting of "Buffalo Gun" calibers that I do.

In this type shooting GCs are of no use due to other considerations that affect the accuracy and long range perfromance of a given bullet design. One of these factors is the transition from supersonic to subsonic that you have mentioned: It is advantagious to shoot subsonic loads if possible since the trans-sonic portion of the bullet's flight is where the most induced drag is imposed on it and, thus, the most wind-drift .. this is one of the underlying reasons the blackpowder boys do so well at long range; thier BP loads seldom achieve supersonic speeds and benifit from typical single digit standrad deviations.

~ Anyway, I got it.

In my initial load development with the Swiss I stuck with standard GC levels of 4759, and 4198, with only one try with Varget since my supply is low and there is no more avialble around here.

I have not had the time recently to follow up on the bedding of my K31 as outlined in this thread due to getting prepared for the local 1000 yard Championship (tomorrow!) but when this match is complete I'll be putting the Swiss project #1 on my loading bench and keep this thread alive too.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

BobS:

I went to the site you gave us - thanks.

In the long range games I play it is a "given" that we use the adjustable front sights as produced by Montana Vintage Arms since the usual rear sights do not have the capibility to compensate for large windage corrections at times; windage needs sometimes exceed 30 minutes in this sort of shooting.

The angled dovetail in the K31 sighting system is easy to understand ~ but of course it isn't intended to be adjusted on the firing line as conditions change during a match!

I would be quite interested in buying one of those adjustment tools though. Where could a fellow get one?

Good morning,
Forrest

[legend]

i have thought of useing a "nutsplitter"on mine i just havent yet...

[462]

One of the Swiss rifle sites has information on homemade K-31 front sight adjusters.

One of them utilizes a nutsplitter, as legend mentioned. Another uses a shaft stop -- 1 1/16" diameter, I think.

[Bob S]

Good evening Forrest,

The only shooting I have done with the K31 and as-issues sights is the CMP course at 200 yards, or the same course at 100 yards on reduced targets. I have sometimes used cast bullets, but I most shoot jacketed loads using salvaged bullets, powder and even primers (yes, primers) from old Navy A-190 300 Win Mag ammunition. The cast loads are very mild and would not be suitable for much beyond 200 yards and even the jacketed loads I use are pretty mild. I can use the Swiss front sight adjuster during a match: I can manipulate it with one hand without disturbing my NPA, and make precise changes. It is not as convenient as twiddling a knob on a Warner sight, or a Soule sight or even windagauge front sight. My MO is to get centered up for the average conditions using the sight adjuster, and then take favors if required by a condition change significant enough to move the shot out of the rather generous ten ring that we use (7" on the SR target at 200 yards). Those who shoot the Swiss GP-11 service ammunition, or equivalent handloads, will probably never even have to take favors after getting centered up, as any wind that will blow the bullet out of the ten ring at 200 yards is likely to blow the shooter over first. (That's only a slight exageration [smilie=1: .)

IIRC, and I freely admit that I have not looked at the CBA rules in ages, for the "military rifle" class, you can use modified sights and stocks, but you are restricted to an "issue" barrel? And the shooting is all at 100 yards, or at least not over 200 yards? If that's still the case, I can highly recommend the Swiss Product target sights that are sold by Graf's. They are not cheap, will cost more than the rifle cost you, most likely, but they are a true match grade sight set, and they require no permanent alteration to the rifle: they simply clamp on. If scope sights are allowed, I also recommend the clamp-on scope mount. also available from Graf's.

For your cast shooting at the longer ranges, I think you're going to need something a little more powerful than what I have developed with cast. I have on my "to do" list to try the Ideal 311334. I have two moulds, and they are poor performers in most "conventional" .30 cal. barrels because the noses cast at .298 from both of my moulds. That should be perfect for any of the Swiss barrels. Based on my US Cal 30 experience, I would try the case full to the bottom of the shoulder (top of the case body) of 4831. You could also try Larry Gibson's load of 26-28 grains 4895 with Dacron.

Even if you are successful in finding a load that shoots acceptably well at ranges past 300 yards (and I am certain that you will), you're going to need a rear sight (or telescope) with sufficient precise adjustment in both elevation and windage. The elevation steps on the issue rear sight are way too coarse, and you can't get the magnitude of windage adjustment that you may need by moving the issue sight, even if you do get proficient with the little screw tool.

I am currently using a John Wilkes rear sight on one of my K31's, and I am convinced it's the best option out there for anyone who wishes to shoot longer ranges with cast bullets in a K31 and does not mind drilling and tapping the receiver. It has a huge range of adjustment in both elevation and windage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/JohnWilkes2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/JohnWilkes1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/LeftyK31Match23jpg.jpg

The small Swiss sight adjusters can be found occasionally on eBay; or you can go to swissrifles.com, and PM or email the gentleman who posts there as "Guisan". His name is Frank Binnendijk and he is in the Netherlands. But his prices are reasonable, and delivery is unusually fast. I guess the Dutch Pony Express is faster than ours!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

More sight adjusters:

The Monster:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Monstersightadjuster.jpg

This one was used by the armorers to install and zero the front sight. When the windage was zero'd, the front sight was staked, sometimes very heavily. This tool is obviously not very convenient for range use, but sometimes it comes in handy to "break the stake", so that one of the more dainty and range-handy adjusters can be used.

My first improvised front sight adjuster. This one also will "break the stake", but it's a helluva lot cheaper than The Monster above (which probably cannot be found on the market anymore, anyway). Less than ten bucks at True Value, some grinding, and you supply the combo wrench from your tool box:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Ersatz_sight_adj.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Big_Nutbuster_Mod.jpg

Bob's Precision Elevation Adjuster, Mark One, Mod Zero:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster2.jpg

This is simply a relatively fine thread socket head set screw. A spare K31 sight was drilled and tapped to receive it. The length of the screw was "tuned" so that the screw is just out of the line of sight when the sight leaf is at minimum elevation. The screw length and thickness of the sight leaf gives sufficient travel for over 1000 meters with the service ammunition. I filed a small notch in the head of the screw and marked it with paint to give a reference point. Keeping track of the number of full and fractional turns made it possible to make repeatable adjustments to within one MOA. Fore longer range you could substitute a longer screw. It's not your Redfield International, but for a guy on a budget ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

Bob S;

Bob S: The only shooting I have done with the K31 and as-issues sights is the CMP course at 200 yards, or the same...

F: I'm sorry for being so long to respond to the thread. The fact is that I was up in Montana at the 1000 yard Championship where I tied for 1st with my "purpose-built" 1000 yard singleshot rifle. I lost the tie-breaker and wound up with 2nd overall but it was intence and lots of fun.

I don't really intend to shoot the K31 over 1000 yards but we do have a range here in town that has targets placed from 350 yards (the offhand target) on out to 834 yards. This set of sihouettes is used regularly by our club and I do shoot various of my military 30s over the course of fire .. I especially enjoy using my reproduction Camp Perry tool on my M1903 for this work.

Bob S: I can use the Swiss front sight adjuster during a match: I can manipulate it with one hand without disturbing my NPA, and make precise changes. It is not as convenient as..

F: Wow. That sounds challenging although I don't know what "NPA" stands for. In the longer range shooting we do adjusting for changes in condition come pretty much constantly and when comes your turn to shoot, you shoot regardless of wheather your sights are set or not or loose the shot completely.


Bob S; I freely admit that I have not looked at the CBA rules in ages, for the "military rifle" class, you can use modified sights and stocks, but you are restricted to an "issue" barrel? And the shooting is all at 100 yards, or at least not over 200 yards?

F: Well, its been ages since I fired in the CBA Postals and I've never been to a regular match but I do know the rules because I used to score Postal targets for some years.

They do shoot at pretty short ranges; 100 yards max for postals and out to 200 for the Nationals.

There are various classes in Military; As issued, Modified iron and Modified scope ~ too many rules to go into here but you must use the issue barrel & receiver.

Bob S; If that's still the case, I can highly recommend the Swiss Product target sights that are sold by Graf's. They are not cheap, will cost more than the rifle cost you, most likely, but they are a true match grade sight set, and they require no permanent alteration to the rifle: they simply clamp on. If scope sights are allowed, I also recommend the clamp-on scope mount. also available from Graf's.

F: I'll go look into the sites you have recommended. Thanks.

Bob S; For your cast shooting at the longer ranges, I think you're going to need something a little more powerful than what I have developed with cast. I have on my "to do" list to try the Ideal 311334. I have two moulds, and they are poor performers in most "conventional" .30 cal. barrels because the noses cast at .298 from both of my moulds. That should be perfect for any of the Swiss barrels. Based on my US Cal 30 experience, I would try the case full to the bottom of the shoulder (top of the case body) of 4831. You could also try Larry Gibson's load of 26-28 grains 4895 with Dacron.

F: Yes, I've got all those ideas in mind. In particular I'll be trying some Varget since I have discovered its works wondefully well in my rebarreled JAP Type 38 7.62x51.

Bob S: Even if you are successful in finding a load that shoots acceptably well at ranges past 300 yards (and I am certain that you will), you're going to need a rear sight (or telescope) with sufficient precise adjustment in both elevation and windage. The elevation steps on the issue rear sight are way too coarse, and you can't get the magnitude of windage adjustment that you may need by moving the issue sight, even if you do get proficient with the little screw tool.

F: I have looked over your pictures of course and you may be sure that I'll at least be drilling & tapping my rear sight as you have done very soon. The more expensive and capable sights may have to wait a bit.

Bob S: I am currently using a John Wilkes rear sight on one of my K31's, and I am convinced it's the best option out there for anyone who wishes to shoot longer ranges with cast bullets in a K31 and does not mind drilling and tapping the receiver. It has a huge range of adjustment in both elevation and windage.

F: It looks wonderful. Somewhat like the "Diopter" sight that was used by the Swiss themselves? $550 or some such?

Bob S: The small Swiss sight adjusters can be found occasionally on eBay; or you can go to swissrifles.com, and PM or email the gentleman who posts there as "Guisan". His name is Frank Binnendijk and he is in the Netherlands. But his prices are reasonable, and delivery is unusually fast. I guess the Dutch Pony Express is faster than ours!

F: Now that the pressure is over concerning practicing and competing in the 1000 yard match I will be attending back the my bolt guns ~ the Swiss to lead the pack in research& development.

I will keep the thread advised.

Good evening,
Forrest

PS: In that last picture it appears that the operating lever is on the wrong side of the receiver ~ could you explain that?

[garandsrus]

Forrest,

I am nowhere near as knowledgeable on the K-31 as Bob, but I can answer your question abou the operating lever on the "wrong" side of the rifle. There is a fairly simple adapter that allows the lever to be moved to the "wrong" side for all the left handed folks.

Also, Bob drilled and tapped the rear sight, not the front.

I have made a front sight adjusting tool for about $5 following the ideas I found on Milsurpshooter.net and other sites. I used a shaft stop collar and an appropriately sized hex screw. All that was required was to grind the threads off the bottom (away from the head) of the screw for 1/2" or so which allows the screw to push on the sight. It works great from either direction. Here's a link to the thread (http://www.milsurpshooter.net/topic/4626/t/Really-cheap-front-sight-adjustment-tool-for-K31.html) and a picture of the adjuster I made.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/garandsrus/k31sightadjustmenttool.jpg

John

[rvpilot76]

PS: In that last picture it appears that the operating lever is on the wrong side of the receiver ~ could you explain that?

Good eye!

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

I've been active with the K31 today and have an update.

I looked over my rifle over the last week or two, comparing it to the standards as provided by Bob's Swiss information.

Now, I'm only your average semi-amature shooter but, really, it looked quite close to the perimeters specified there. I didn't mess with the issue stock at all but simply re-assembeled it carefully and loaded up some more ammunition to see what I could see.

I moved the front sight over to print zero on my 100 yard paper and fired the standard loads that work in so many similar cartridges. Things like 20 - 22 grains 4759 and such under a bullet that seemed pretty close to fitting the tight throat without extending below the shoulder of the case .. I picked the SAECO 316.

I'm used to the fairly easy-to-use tang peep and aperture front sights as used on big singleshots so going back the as-issued military took a little recurrent training.

The rifle performed very well once I got back into currency, shooting one of my combinations into 5 x 1.580 and another into 7 x 1.630 .. The 7 shot group was with 29 grains of "Varget" so it's getting out there fairly fast ~ now where in the world can I find some more of that stuff?!

Its early days yet but I'm confident that this rifle will go the distance and be very interesting every step of the way.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

45 2.1;

I hope you may still be following this thread because I'm interested in hearing more about how your RCBS 30-165-SIL works in your K31.

So far I've been shooting bullets cast in borrowed molds with fair success but the time is approaching for me to buy a mold of my own. I like the appearance of the RCBS silhouette design, being short in the body and long in the nose.

How deeply (for example) does the bullet seat into the case as permitted by the short throat? As loaded for your rifle does the bullet base extend below the case shoulder?

What size is your particular bullet as-cast on the body and the nose? (I know this is unique to each mold but any data is good)

Thanks for your help, good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

No luck on getting 45 2.1 to come back I guess.

Lately I've taken the K31 up for addional testing with the good Varget load. Unfortunately there was no consistency shown this time; lots of open groups and flyers.

It'll have to be overhauled according to specifications recorded in this thread I guess but perhaps I'll wait a little ~ until the weather gets too crummy for much shooting .. for now I have some other rifles that are already doing just fine.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

An an update on the K31 here.

The deal is that I was wrong about the orignal bedding being semi-resaonable - it wasn't. No combination gave me anything like good groups. But! There was always the indication that the rifle "wanted" to shoot as it would occassionaly produce nice little clusters - but no repeats.

I looked it over with a mind to get out the epoxy and go to the standard bedding procedure as is done with the typical Mauser action. But, I hesitated; "This is no Mauser" I thought and reviewed the text of the bedding procdure as posted in this thread.

Instead of gooping up the action with the epoxy, forevermore destroying the possibility of shooting "As Issued" I decided to try shimming the action in stages to see what I could see.

This worked. I added various thicknesses of shim in the recoil transfer area of the stock and under the tang until I wound up with 0.036 under the tang and 0.009 behind the recoil surface of the trigger-group portion of the receiver where recoil is transfered to the wood.

Instantly the groups became lots smaller. I could see occaisional three or four shot groups of a 5 shot run as small as 0.750. To me this ment that the rifle was doing first-rate - it was me not being able to see the issue sights dead-nuts that was opening the groups.

It is early days yet, and many more rounds to be fired but I believe that this K31 is on its way to the record books - perhaps in the "As Issued" CBA matches yet to come.

Good evening,
Forrest

[coyotebait]

FAsmus

I've been following this thread with intrest as I too have a few K31 rifles and have worked on some cast loads for one. I will offer up a little info about the RCBS 165-SIL. Cast from WW the nose ride is .299 and must be seated so the GC is below the neck in order to chamber in my rifle. OAL 2.775 YMMV

coyotebait

[FAsmus]

Coyotebait;

Thanks for the post.

I am particularly interested your reported use of the RCBS 30-165-SIL design since I am seriously considering getting a set blocks for it myself. The price seems a little high for outright experimentaton though so feed-back from members is greatly appricated.

My current RCBS 30-180-SP is a very good design but unless I run them through my Wosika Coaxisizer die they too require a seating depth such that the GC is below the neck of the case.

Now, I've always liked the Coax die. It does what its supposed to do and I have always noted an improvement in accuracy when I used it. However, running all my bullets through the procedure is a time-consuming pain so I really do try to find an as-cast design that will not need the extra work to make it shoot ~ your word on the Silhouette design has helped me make the choice to stick with the SP design - at least for awhile yet.

Could you tell me, please, what portion of the Silhouette bullet engages the throat of your rifle first? Is it the nose at 0.299? Or the body at (non-specified) diameter?

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Bob S;

A question has arisen about your Precision Elevation Adjuster, Mark One, Mod Zero:

I took my sight apart and got a good pin-punch into the center of it with my old machinest's tool. Then I tried making the locater mark big enough to center-up a drill with a regular center punch .. the freshly sharpened center punch simply mushed off the sight material without changing the initial marker at all and my regular high-speed steel drill didn't even remove the bluing from the sight, let alone cut a thing.

Obviously the sight is pretty hard and I see the discoloration on your sight from drawing it back. I'd be interested to hear about the full procedure you used to drill & tap your elevation screw hole!

I mean, sure, I can draw back my sight too but I'd just like to hear about what you did first ..

Good morning,
Forrest

[Bob S]

Forrest:

I just annealed the leaf with a propane torch. Remove the slide first so the heat does not draw the temper of the spring that is inside of it. I clamped the leaf in a bench vise at the very front end on the pivot bosses so there is very little contact with the vise that would draw off the heat. Heat the spot you wish to drill to a dull red, and then let it cool in air.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[coyotebait]

FAsmus;

With regards to my RCBS 30-165-SIL in my K31, the .299 dia. bore ride engages the rifling just behind the ogive. When seated long enough to keep the GC in the neck it takes a sharp rap on the bolt handle to close and risks leaving a bullet in the chamber when removing a loaded round so I seat deeper to avoid that problem. If you PM me your contact info I will mail you a handfull of bullets as cast to try in your rifle.

regards
coyotebait

[FAsmus]

Bob S & Coyotebait;

Thanks for your posts.

Bob - I'll follow the procedure. I only wish I might find an extra sight leaf for this purpose. Ah well, civil shooting will virtually never wear out even a softened sight I'm sure.

Coyote; Check your PM ~ We're in business! Thanks for the offer.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Bob S]

Forrest:

If you would like to keep your rear sight leaf pristine and unmodified, you can purchase a spare from Graf's, and modify that one:

http://www.grafs.com/shooting/3964

(Scroll down to the bottom of the page)

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The K31 is shooting well with the coaxisized RCBS 30-180-SO and 28 grains Varget; Even with only the issue sights and my semi-marginal eyes I can count on 5x1.500 groups at 100 yards ~ always provided I do my part.

My only problem is that running any great number of bullets through the coax tool gets to be a pain and my RCBS SP is just too long and too big for the rifle unless I cold-form them prior to seating them into cases.

However! By now, member Coyotebait has shared a few RCBS 30-165-SIL bullets with me and these seem to be, if not an actual "magic bullet" for this particular K31, they appear to be pretty darn close to it in size and configuration and no-need to coaxisize them either.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

BobS;

Since last addition to the thread I have received a sight piece from GRAF and modified it.

I looked it over and thought about options. Your screw elevation idea is good of course, but keep in mind that my main consideration for fiddling with the sights at all has always been to find a way to come up with a modification to adjust for windage. This, without going for the big-bucks sights from Europe.

Then I remembered I had an unused Lyman 57 receiver sight in my bag of parts. I got it out, placed it next to the K31's sight and soon figured out the method needed to put the two of them together.

I cut off the sight piece after drawing out the temper and filed it square. Then I cut off the windage portion of the Lyman sight and fitted the pieces together. The addition of an 8/32 threaded hole, which is where you left off, didn't seem all that handy to me .. the hole was pretty big and didn't allow for high sight settings without repeated changing of set screws. Instead I drilled and tapped two 4/40 holes on either side of center so that regardless of how long the screws might be they would never be in front of center. I made two holes so that in case I needed the full travel for windage I would be able to use one side or the other and still remain clear of the peep's line of sight. Things looked good so I welded the parts together and assembled the whole works on the rifle.

Today I am loading for the first trial of the modified sight .. I'll keep you advised.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Bob S]

Forrest,

One thing that I considered, but never actually did was to adapt the sight leaf from a SMLE to the K31 base. I have a few of the very early SMLE leafs that have fine elevation adjustment, and windage adjustment as well. (I think the Brits discontinued the windage adjustement about the same time they removed the magazine cut-off ... 1916?) You'd still have an open sighting notch, but in that position an aperture doesn't do you much good, anyway.

I did the same thing with the offset 4-40 hole on a Swiss Vetterli, only one hole, and a very, very long screw in it. The 10.4 mm Swiss bullet has the trajectory of an 81mm mortar, and needs lots and lots of elevation for 300 yards!

Would appreciate pictures of your sight set-up when you get a chance. I'm sure there are others here who would also like to see it.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Today was the first time for the K31 to go up on our hill-top range to try out the sight modifcations outlined in the thread.

My load was 29 grans Varget and the RCBS 30-180-SP as coaxisized with the Wosika tool .. I have not been able to cast up a "shootable" number of Coyotebait's 30-165-SIL bullets yet, but that is another story.

The wind was light from the east, sometimes going pretty much flat; ideal for testing a 30 caliber cast bullet load at long range without adding too many additional challenges. I set up my cross-sticks, scope and ground cloth, set out the ammunition, screw driver and sight-setting book beside me and got with it .. fortunately about then another shooter showed up, interested in testing his 7.62x51 on the M70 action, the main difference was that he had a full set of Redfield "Olympic" sights ~ "Fortunately" I say because the little 30 caliber pills really are hard to self-spot at anything over about 400 yards and I planned on shooting on out to 834 yards; with him coming along we were both enabled to spot for one another..

We worked out to the 470 yard Rectangle, getting good hits, before my peep sight picture started looking decidedly out-of-round. This problem was unavoidable since the sight, as the screw increased its elevation became further and further off the line of sight. I had forseen this so I stoped shooting for a minute, added on one of my 0.400" sight extentions to the peep, put it back together, lowered the elevation screw and returned to shooting.

Once this was done no further problems with out-of-round sight picture were encountered right on out to the 834 yard distance.

The sight radius is 23 inches and I found that the very slightest movement of either elevation or windage REALLY changed point of impact more than I'm used to with the typical 33 to 34 inch radius rifles I usually shoot but once understood it was doable.

The windage adjustment was easy, since as you can see in the pictures I graduated things so as to keep track. Elevation was tougher since the issue method for controlling elevation was rendered completely inoperative with the modifcation I'd done. All I could think of was to measure the elevation directly with a machinest's scale and record these numbeers in the sight-setting book .. A little slow maybe but I got the numbers and they repeat.

Things were going quite well right on out to the 670 yard Circle, then the wind came up a bit. At first I didn't catch on but then I realized that I couldn't see the front sight clearly anymore because the elevation screw was blocking the way. Good! This was why I made two holes for the darn thing and it needed to be tested too; I moved the screw from one side to the other of the sight, measured the elevation to get back on target and presto! It worked just as planned.

On out to the 834 yard Big Square I had to hunt around for bit with my friend's help - the misses being pretty small way out there and I having no idea about where to set the sight on this, the first time the rifle had been on the long range line, it took five shots to "find" the steel. ~ then, once on it it was as usual a challenge to stay on it while conditions changed .. but fun.

Finally I ran out of the 30-180-SPs and turned to the 5 rounds I had loaded with the 30-165-SIL; I had cast only a few and these just had to come along so see how they did at long range. The first round was about 5 feet high from the previously set zero for the heavier bullets. I adjusted the elevation and ran the last four straight hits. My! I sure like the SIL design in this rifle.

With this shooting I have reached the set goal of making the K31 perform over the distance. Now that the rifle works, the rest is up to me and I look forward to the slick striaght-pull and fine acccuracy in the times to come.

Good evening,
Forrest

http://i26.tinypic.com/246p79i.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/15pmm2d.jpg

[madsenshooter]

What's the ID of the K31 rear sight mount, I mean where it fits around the barrel. I have this rear sight from a Danish Madsen that I got off ebay, it already has windage adjustment, might just work.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1;

I hope you may still be following this thread because I'm interested in hearing more about how your RCBS 30-165-SIL works in your K31. I guess its been a while since I viewed this thread.

So far I've been shooting bullets cast in borrowed molds with fair success but the time is approaching for me to buy a mold of my own. I like the appearance of the RCBS silhouette design, being short in the body and long in the nose. The RCBS mold comes in several different "lengths" due to different cherrys being used with a little dimensional difference between them. The RCBS boolit actually fits the 1911 K11 better than the K31 and is more accurate in them. The K31 has a long chamber neck and an abrupt throat. Depending on which GB version you have, they fit the K31 better or worse than the original. Best to have some of the nose engrave for better accuracy.

How deeply (for example) does the bullet seat into the case as permitted by the short throat? The base of the boolit and the case neck are usually the same in my loads. As loaded for your rifle does the bullet base extend below the case shoulder? No, not on any of them. The various versions of the Sil. boolit sometimes are too big and try to engrave the nose too much in some of the K31s i've tried, not all though.

What size is your particular bullet as-cast on the body and the nose? They vary from 0.3095" on the RCBS version to 0.3115" on the GB versions. (I know this is unique to each mold but any data is good)

Thanks for your help, good evening,
Forrest

Try sizing to 0.310" or 0.311" depending on your rifle and useing either 11.3 gr. or a top level charge of Unique or slightly less with a boolit no harder than air cooled WW.

[Bob S]

Try sizing to 0.310" or 0.311" depending on your rifle and useing either 11.3 gr. or a top level charge of Unique or slightly less with a boolit no harder than air cooled WW.

Sizing larger than .309 for a K31 is generally an exercise in futility. Groove diameters usually run less than .308, and they have no throat. Seriously, no throat.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[45 2.1]

Sizing larger than .309 for a K31 is generally an exercise in futility. Groove diameters usually run less than .308, and they have no throat. Seriously, no throat. I believe you should reread what I posted previously about a long neck and abrupt throat in the K31s. I have done throat slugs on quite a few. The Swiss rifles are quite well made and uniform. Brass, on the other hand, can vary considerably considering at least 7 or more potential sources. So larger sizing diameters can be tolerated and produce excellent accuracy.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

I've played with most all the varieties (in unmodified form) of the Swiss rifles since 1978 and know what they'll do with various boolits and loadings. Some folks do get into it farther than you have.

[Bob S]

I've played with most all the varieties (in unmodified form) of the Swiss rifles since 1978 and know what they'll do with various boolits and loadings. Some folks do get into it farther than you have.

Really??! You have no clue as to how much I've "gotten into it". But since you're the expert and I'm such an inexperienced idiot, you can field the K31 questions. I'll keep my mouth shut here, and just keep winning matches with mine.

Have a nice day. :)

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

45/2.1;

( Isn't that the designator for the 45/70? )

Well now, seeing you back on the thread is interesting ~ but a little too late to get into the real exchange of ideas about tooling up for sights and ideas for the feeding of this particular K31.

My particular rifle ( as mentioned ) is now shooting about as well as I can hold it over our cast bullet range that begins at 350 yards for the Offhand, on out to 834 yards where we kind of play in the wind.

Member Coyotebait was instrumental in providing, first, some of his RCBS 30-165-SIL bullets that I tested in my K31 with excellent accuracy and then by selling me the tool where-in I am enabled to make them myself as related in my post about proving the K31over all our long range targets the day before yesterday. His particular tool makes the "magic" bullet for this particular rifle of mine .. wonderful stuff!

I am humbled by the way the membership has corresponded with me regarding my understanding of the K31 ~ Its accurazing and feeding, particularly BobS who told me of its unique bedding design and how to tune it.

As for feeding it, sure: I've been there casting the bullets and feeding them into some semi-serious rifle-needs over the years; I believe I understand the basics. Pretty much the Swiss holds no mystery regarding bullets, diameters or powder charges: We all know what works ~ its only a matter of putting the components together ~ and doing the accuracy testing .. My accuracy testing just happens to be over longer ranges than anyone else’s I’ve read about recently .. and as for a minimal charge of Unique for long range shooting - I don't think so; I wouldn't even try it.

At this time, all I want to say more is thanks to all of you who have posted in the interests of accuracy and marksmanship ~ we are all members of the same brotherhood.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Madsenshooter;

I'd have to seriously dis-assemble the rifle to provide you with that speicification! And, since I've just now arrived at what appears to be "the answer" for tuning the rifle's bedding I'm pretty reluctent to do that.

Take a look - you might just like what I did to the issue sight leaf for considerably less trouble. I mean; who cares much about cutting up a Lyman 57?

Good evening,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

Try sizing to 0.310" or 0.311" depending on your rifle and useing either 11.3 gr. or a top level charge of Unique or slightly less with a boolit no harder than air cooled WW.


Mmm....I'm with Bob on this one. I recently received my 6th...or is it 7th K31. NONE of mine have had a groove diameter of .308. All have been under .308 with the newest (to me) being close to .306 although I forget the exact measurement and my notes are out in the shop, and I'm too lazy to go get them. Anyhow, I've never sized any of my cast bullets over .309" and have never seen a need to. Also, as Bob S said, they have NO throat.
35W

[madsenshooter]

Madsenshooter;

I'd have to seriously dis-assemble the rifle to provide you with that speicification! And, since I've just now arrived at what appears to be "the answer" for tuning the rifle's bedding I'm pretty reluctent to do that.

Take a look - you might just like what I did to the issue sight leaf for considerably less trouble. I mean; who cares much about cutting up a Lyman 57?

Good evening,
Forrest

I've got one of each, don't take your rifle out of its bedding. I'll figure it out myself, just thought there might be someone who knew off the top of his head, or that had a rifle apart whilst producing a target rifle like the ones Bob builds. I can see that the Madsen sight is about the right length. I also have a few Lyman 57 gallows arms laying around, so your way might work for me too. I have found a boolit that fits the throat of the K31 very well, it's the Eagan MX3-30AR, much like the RCBS 165 sillywet, but already a tapered boolit. I bought the cherry off ebay and had Bernie Rowles make a mold with it Checked and lubed it comes in at 170.2gr in the harder than lino alloy I'm using, for a pic go here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46938 or better yet: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=43159 Thanks for the reply!

[Bret4207]

Really??! You have no clue as to how much I've "gotten into it". But since you're the expert and I'm such an inexperienced idiot, you can field the K31 questions. I'll keep my mouth shut here, and just keep winning matches with mine.

Have a nice day. :)

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Ignore him Bob. You've been providing outstanding information freely for years with the groups and awards to back it up. Bobby is just an abrasive personality, it's just the way he is. Please don't let that stop you from continuing on here.

[FAsmus]

Madsenshooter;

Good fortune on the sight work you have in mind.

OK ~ I went there and saw some of those bullet designs.

For the record let me say that I've never been impressed by LEE's 312-155 bullet. I have one, purchased for my SKS and it never proved out for anything much in the long oversize throat of the issue barrel. I went to an old oversize Ideal 311466 that does very well indeed .. but that is another story.

The deal on the mold I bought from Coyotebait is one of those fine things that happen now and then. His mold casts 0.3000 on the noze and 0.3080 on the body. I do not have a sizing die smaller than 0.3105 so I used that to size on the GCs.

This technique allows me to shoot "as-cast" but still have a GC. By the way, I view "sizing" as just another word for "damaging" bullets ..

The as-cast SIL bullet's noze as seated shows the mearest witness marks on the very end of the ogive/noze portion of the bullet. The body is just exactly the right size to engage the origin of rifling. I keep them soft, so that I may press the first band slightly into the bore with the closure of the bolt. The 0.3080 bullet is pretty much perfect for this to work as the groove diameter in my K31 is 0.3075.

All for now, good morning,
Forrest

[45 2.1]

Ignore him Bob. You've been providing outstanding information freely for years with the groups and awards to back it up. Bobby is just an abrasive personality, it's just the way he is. Please don't let that stop you from continuing on here.

Thank You for Bret, you have reassured me of your old personality. You haven't changed at all. As for BobS, you also have not changed from your Swiss Rifle forum posts. I assume yours is the only way to do anything. No one else has any idea other than you..........................

Forrest, yes, that is the old Sharps Co. designation for the more common 4570.

[45 2.1]

Mmm....I'm with Bob on this one. I recently received my 6th...or is it 7th K31. NONE of mine have had a groove diameter of .308. All have been under .308 with the newest (to me) being close to .306 although I forget the exact measurement and my notes are out in the shop, and I'm too lazy to go get them. Anyhow, I've never sized any of my cast bullets over .309" and have never seen a need to. Also, as Bob S said, they have NO throat.
35W

Come on now, if they had NO throat, the beginning of the lands would have to be square to the chamber and they're not like that (thats from throat slugging a few dozen of them, but maybe Bob has done more and found differently. He will have to tune in and tell us what is really true). The throat is quite abrupt though. This rifle was set up differently (for a specific jacketed bullet) than the previous series of Swiss rifles.

[madsenshooter]

There is a bit of leade, but it's teeny, check out the post for the NOE K31 boolit. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61977 It's there, like you I found it in mine by measuring the nicely engraved Eagan MX3 30AR boolit. I don't know if I'll go for the group buy boolit or stay with the Eagan, a HP option would be nice...

[FAsmus]

I went and looked over the dimentions of the "Group Buy" design; it looks quite good!

In fact the dimentions come very close to the RCBS 30-180-SP sizes once I ran them through the Wosika Coaxisizer .. the only difference being the Coax bullet noses went 0.3005 which worked in my rifle but would (no doubt) be too big for many others.

This K31 of mine has a "lead" ahead of the chamber all right, about 0.050 long and it goes right at 0.3075, as I think I mentioned before. This must have been the Swiss' answer for the spitzers they loaded into their rifles.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[madsenshooter]

Groove diameter on mine is .3065, bore .295 I think. I've seen some for sale that were tagged in MM as smaller than the norm and I guess I have one of those barrels on mine. I think the Eagan has a 2 degree taper to it, so it fits quite nicely without any additional bumping and I don't get lead shavings blown back onto the case neck like I did when firing the Lee TL boolit sized to .308. I haven't done any shooting with the 308329 spitzer bumped down yet, but plan to sometime soon.

[Bret4207]

Thank You for Bret, you have reassured me of your old personality. You haven't changed at all. As for BobS, you also have not changed from your Swiss Rifle forum posts. I assume yours is the only way to do anything. No one else has any idea other than you..........................

Forrest, yes, that is the old Sharps Co. designation for the more common 4570.

Was I supposed to have changed somehow Bob? You certainly haven't.

BobS has freely given information with out strings, caveats, secrets or anything else connected to them. And he's posted the pics and awards to prove he has at least some vague idea of what he's talking about. I think you should take your own advice you gave to Bob- "I assume yours is the only way to do anything. No one else has any idea other than you.........................."

[mto7464]

We seem to have some big Ego's on this board.

[Bret4207]

Yeah, and old wounds that people keep scratching at for no good reason.

[rvpilot76]

'seems to me there was this one saying of more than one way to skin a cat. I'm sure if there are any anti-gunners out there who are reading these forums, they are getting quite a laugh reading about the bickering going on in some threads. I sincerely hope that nobody here would intentionally step on anyone's (let alone another shooter's) toes. I think there are just some mannerisms that cannot be conveyed through text that get misconstrued, and people's feelings get hurt and defenses go up. Come on, guys. We're all on the same team here.

Respectfully,

Kevin

[jack19512]

We seem to have some big Ego's on this board.









Well, not me anyway. I don't know crap and will be the first to admit it. I can easily prove I don't know much, all I have to do is show you some of my cast boolit groups. :wink:

[FAsmus]

Buckshot;

I take it back - that link you gave me wasn't what I had in mind.

Here is the 4-page thread I began last September about the K31 I got at Quigley 2009.

So long,
Forrest

[Buckshot]

..............Glad you found it! :smile:

..............Buckshot

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

I bought a digital camera and this is the first time for me to paste pictures on-line. Here are the pictures of my K31s modified sight as noted way back there when the work was done.

The first one is of the K31 and my modified sight with extension for the peep aperture in place. Here the elevation screw is also in sight. Note that there is an additional hole for it on the other side of the peep. This is because at long ranges the elevation screw will obscure the sight picture when the wind is strong enough to move the sight over enough to compensate for the condition. When this happens I move the elevation screw to the other hole and the sight picture is OK again.

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy333/Forrest_Asmus/Rifles/IMG_0029.jpg

In this picture the peep is in the normal position. The angle of the shot is such that my "white-out" windage marks are clearly visible.

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy333/Forrest_Asmus/Rifles/IMG_0026.jpg

I hope these pictures are of interest to you all.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[excess650]

I took some photos of my K31 with RPA Paramount rear sight. The mount itself requires D&T the side of the receiver for 2 or 3 holes. The front was not drilled because that spot was sooooo hard.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25307&stc=1&d=1284302560http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25308&stc=1&d=1284303266


The LH side view shows the sight with a 300m cast bullet setting which "covers the 4" on the barrel sight. This particular load is fairly mild, 22gr AA5744 with 175gr Saeco #315. The Gehmann adjustable iris clears the cocking piece at this height , but not lower. With my HV cast bullet load, the "0" on the elevator is at the top of the sight and allowed me to shoot 900 yards. The scale on the elevator is moveable for changing the "zero". The sight can be moved fore/aft on its base by choosing one of the (4) mounting holes on the base, and (2) on the sight.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25309&stc=1&d=1284302560

The top view shows the sight clears the ejection port.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25310&stc=1&d=1284302560

The sight also had an adaptor to allow the use of Lyman/Redfield/Williams small thread apertures. This really small outer diameter aperture allows a 50 yard setting at zero while clearing the cocking piece.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25311&stc=1&d=1284302560

This sight was obtained NIB at a gun show despite being 15 years old. Its replacement, the RPA Trakker, is available in both side mount and Weaver type base mount. Many newer style "National Match" or "Palma" type sights are available from various sources.

Larry Racine from NH makes the base shown, and another that adpats the Redfield Palma and similar sights. There is another base, Lipski, that will adapt either RPA or Redfield type mounts, and is situated on the top, rear of the receiver by way of a Weaver base. This would allow moving the sight to various rifles that had a Weaver base.

My "sporter" barreled action is at the gunsmith having a Lyman WJS and receiver mated. I purchased the action with non-matching barrel cut to 20" and no stock, so have no problem making a custom with it.

[FAsmus]

Excess650;

You are justifiably proud of that sight! Wonderful stuff.

I've been over to look at the various sights showing up in eBay's receiver sight page. As you say there are Plama sights and other first-class items in there if you go looking and keep on checking.

My rather primitive modification has no aspirations to take over the place of a "real" target-type sight like yours ~ all I wanted was something that would reach 800 + yards, repeat consistently and have adequate windage capability. This sawed-off and glued-together adaption, crude as it is, will do all of that.

I might mention that, having just returned from a another range session at 834 yards with a good-shooting 30'06 that NO small-bore 30 caliber at our trans-sonic velocities will shoot very well at things over 500m; even in just light puffy conditions the little pills just drift way too much for steady hits at all.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Bob S]

I have an RPA Trakker on the back of my Tikka 595. I like it very much!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/tikka595_001.jpg

Here is its grandfather, a John Wilkes, on the back of my first K31. It replaced a Redfield International:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/LeftyK31Match23jpg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/JohnWilkes1.jpg

The eyepiece is a Parker-Hale 6-holer.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[excess650]

Some time ago I bought a K31 barreled action with non-matching barrel that had been cut to 20-1/2". It appears that this was a new, or nearly new barrel as it doesn't appear to have any throat erosion. I just got it back from the gunsmith today. He D&T the barrel and mounted the Remington ramp front sight, and also fitted a Lyman WJS that I had in my sight box. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25412&stc=1&d=1284595406


The stock was obtained from Gunparts or Numrich or whatever they call themselves, and doesn't have the hardware for the sling, and no buttplate. The LH side of the comb appears to have been whittled down for someone with huge cheekbones, so I didn't have a problem amputating the end.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25413&stc=1&d=1284595406

The Lyman WJS is for a Rem 700 or Win 70 type receiver, so the contour wasn't quite right for the K31. To add stability, the receiver side and sight base got matching flats milled onto them. The enhanced mating of the parts could also have been accomplished with epoxy rather than milling.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25414&stc=1&d=1284595406

In its current configuration, this K31 "carbine" is very handy, and noticeably lighter. I have a Boyd's sporter stock, but its going to need some inletting before I can use it.

[FAsmus]

Excess650;

Your "restored" K31, salvaged from the hack-saw sporter version is nicely done.

How well does it shoot?

Good morning,
Forrest

[excess650]

I've not shot it yet, and didn't have any intention of restoring it. My thought was that since it had already been cut, it would make a good basis for a sporter without having to butcher a complete rifle.

The bluing isn't very good, and it has the importer's number is on the side. The barrel is non-matching, but may have been new prior to it being shortened.

With the partial military stock and short barrel its MUCH handier than the full length K31. The stock was cut just beyond the pressure point in the barrel channel to retain upward pressure.

I did buy a Boyd's sporter stock, and will need to inlet and glass the action in place. I'm thinking of installing screws in the forened to make for an adjustable v-block pressure point.

If it turns out to be a real shooter, it may get reblued.

**after removing some wood to clear the receiver sight, the action fit into the stock properly, but the barrel does not contact the pressure point in the forend at all**

[excess650]

Excess650;

Your "restored" K31, salvaged from the hack-saw sporter version is nicely done.

How well does it shoot?


I made an educated guess on a load and took the "carbine" to the range. I have a "Group Buy" 311041 cut by Lee that has a wierd cavity in which the bands on either side of the crimp groove cast at .306" and the (2) remaining bands cast .313". The nose diameter is a full .302". I purposely chose these bullets thinking that they might act like a tapered bullet. Seated to just kiss the rifling, they make contact on the leading edge of the ogive and on the edge of the first band. This puts the GC down around the shoulder.

The first group was fired with the sights set where the gunsmith had left them, so printed low and right at 58 yards(rangefinder). I shoot WITHOUT bags, so hold the forend with the left hand, wrist on a block of wood. The right elbow is on the bench.


The 2nd group was fired after a sight adjustment to raise the elevation and move towards the left. I'm going to change to a lower front sight, and possibly a green fiber optic at that.

[FAsmus]

Excess650;

Good shooting.

That is an interesting bullet design ~ it reminds me of my 311466-430 bought on eBay that is 0.312 on all the body except for the leading band and that goes at 0.305.

This ( pardon the digression ) is the magic bullet for my Yugoslavian SKS for the same reason you site for the K31 - it seats to the bottom of the neck and engages the origin of rifling perfectly while still at the correct over-all length to feed with out fault or failure. ~ But then, RCBS 30-165-SIL in my K31 does nearly as well, less the undersize first band.

Good evening,
Forrest

PS: Is your handle associated with 40-inch motorcycle engines?

[excess650]

I've been doing some load development with the K31 "carbine". Since it doesn't have much wear in the throat, some bullets are just too long. This leaves my Saeco #301 out, and causes my tapered Saeco #315 to seat more deeply than I care for. Unfortunately the 311041 won't feed from the magazine. The Ranch Dog 311-165 is too large in diameter and meplat too large to feed. The Lyman 311644 is a most excellent fit! My best load so far is 30gr H322 with F210 primers in PP cases. This is very close to the load my other K31 likes with this bullet.

The 311679 "Ardito" also fits, but I don't like its pointed nose. I think either HPing or a bump die may resolve that issue.

A 311299 with undersize nose might be a good candidate, but I don't have that mold. Likewise, the NOE K31 mold might be good, but I don't have it either.

My Lee 200gr suffers the same malady as the Saeco 301 in that its nose is too large in diameter, and too long. A bump die could solve those issues....

I'm thinking "hunting bullet" so casting softnose versions of any of these heavy designs may be the answer.

I'm going to try the Saeco #311 170gr silhouette design, but would prefer a heavier bullet.

[excess650]

I've now shot 30-40gr surplus 4895 behind the 200gr 311644 in PP cases with F210 primers. The best groups were at 36gr and 38gr, but nothing wildly inaccurate (yet).

[alamogunr]

Thanks to all who have posted in this thread. I'm bookmarking it now.

I have two K-31's and am contemplating a Swiss 96/11 or a 1911 just to have something different. I know it is a little OT but does anyone have a recommendation?

John
W.TN

[Thecyberguy]

I have a K31. I got it from JG sales a while back. I have not shot it yet. I have dies and a box of factory ammo. Just haven't found time to take it out and make some empty brass. Have a good 'un, thecyberguy

[the other DWS]

its not a K-31, but its chambered for that round, I've got a later model, 4-groove Hammerelli/Martini single shot "stutzen" type offhand rifle that I've been trying to get loaded and set for next seasons ASSRA 200 yd offhand matches. If anyone else is shooting these old single shot version of the 7.5 l'd be very pleased to hear from them.

(I previously posted in the single shot sub-forum but there was little or no response to a 7.5 inquiry there.)


I took it to the range day before yesterday to bench it at 200 yards mostly to see IF it would shoot'em and to empty out the brass.
I'd run across 3 or 4 boxes of Hornady custom 7.5x55 in Frontier brass that Hornady's customer service told me was a special contract run for Graf's. I also picked up 5 boxes of the Serbian 7.5 ammo. I had already fallen heir to 130 or 140 empty Serb cases, 3 different sets of dies and a much of .30 cal jacketed match bullets.

In spite of some shooting problems, a scope (20x Unertl BL--20) that I could not get focused beyond 150 yds and a front bench-rest bag that just barely supported the barrel I was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy. I had several 3 shot groups that were darn near touching and several 10 shot groups that were under 3 inches---with a blurry scope picture and an unsteady barrel support. The rifle handled all rounds well, I went through 45 of'em and each one would practically fall out of the chamber. hopefully in another week or so I'll do another range trip (with a different scope ) for some offhand testing.

now I'm searching for a cast bullet mould, perhaps one of your group-buy moulds would work, once the gas check groove is removed; since ASSRA compititon requires plain based lead bullets. I'll be using much lighter loads, probably in the 1300-1400 fps range, strictly for offhand 200 yard matches, up to and including the 100-shot Hudson match. I'll probably be using 4759 since I just acquired 13 or 14 pounds of it.

[Thecyberguy]

now I'm searching for a cast bullet mould, perhaps one of your group-buy moulds would work, once the gas check groove is removed; since ASSRA compititon requires plain based lead bullets. I'll be using much lighter loads, probably in the 1300-1400 fps range, strictly for offhand 200 yard matches, up to and including the 100-shot Hudson match. I'll probably be using 4759 since I just acquired 13 or 14 pounds of it.

I hope you come back and list what you come up with. I will be following this. Have a good 'un, TCG

[the other DWS]

I've been trying to locate one of the 180NOE group buy moulds with no sucess and I'm not sure when they will be produced again. So now I'm looking at a custom mould that will be a modification of the 180 gr NOE bullet or Ardito-type bullet.
In the ASSRA type "schuetzen" matches it is common to load the bullet separately using a breech seater to press the bullet into the leade of the barrel then insert a primed and charged case. some shooters will shoot for years using a single case, reloading it at the bench for each shot. (Obviously time limits for match relays are liberal and the pace of a match is gentlemanly) Often the best accuracy is achieved with the bullet base a tenth or so AHEAD of the case mouth!!!
With a martini type action this is very difficult to do. The germanic civilian sport schuetzen riflemen with martini actioned rifles used a "stop ring" bullet which had a slight shoulder or ring that was press fit with finger pressure into the case until the "stop ring hit the case mouth. The bullet nose would be designed for a tight fit into the leade with light but solid engraving.
The Swiss match rifle single shots were designed to use standard military issue jacketed fixed ammo but that is not an option in ASSRA competition. So I'm considering a custom mould based on the NOE bullet, minus the provision for the gas check, adding a small stop ring to fit the small gap between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling and adding another shallow grease groove ahead of the stop ring.
I will have to monitor case length carefully and keep them trimmed to permit a precise fit. but since this is a very match specific rifle, offhand cast bullets @200 yards it should be manageable. However to be competitive I'll pretty much be required to shoot extended matches with a 3 or 3.5 min of angle degree of accuracy----the will be MUCH less probable.

[madsenshooter]

With that tight bore and the requirements you've posted above, you're really talking a custom proposition! You wouldn't need a stop ring with the NOE, it has a swell forward of the lube groove that should act about like that. You mentioned an Ardito type bullet, Erik has the cherry for the Eagan MX4 30-ARD I believe.

[the other DWS]

the point to the stop-ring is to keep the bullet from getting pushed back into an unresized as-fired case as you seat the loaded round into the lands.

In schuetzen-style shooting with a martini action you cant simply slide a primed and charged open case down the "ramp" on top of the block and into the chamber unless you elevate the muzzle considerably--a safety violation. With most other style types you can shove the charged case in pretty much horizontally with only a slight muzzle elevation that is accepted as safe. also with the more usual fairly straight case a light overpowder wad of dry floral foam, cork sheeting, or a disc of sheet lube can be placed on top of the loaded charge to hold it back in the case and prevent spillage. That will not be possible with the relatively large bottle necked 7.5x55 case.

[the other DWS]

Just a quick note, the new Handloader (Dc 2010) has a cartridge survey article about the 7.5 Swiss that gives some good, but basic history.
It states however that the 7.5 was only chambered in the Schmidt-Rubin rifles, apparently in ignorance of the 7.5 single shot target rifles. I just sent a letter to the editor pointing out the omission.

[spqrzilla]

That article has some other errors as well in my opinion, or at least terminology I wouldn't use. Such as describing the service issue ammunition as "M90" for GP 90 and "M11" for GP 11.

[HollowPoint]

I've been looking with envy at the receiver mounted peep sights on some of the pics listed on this post. I would have loved to have mounted a set of those on my K-31.

I too bought mine from J&G Sales a few years ago. My eye sight is such that I either had to mount a scope or a set of peep sights.

I tried the scope but, I just couldn't get used to the Off-Center mounting so I ended up installing a set of inexpensive Peep sights I bought at a local gun show.

I'd have to completely agree with the statement about the metal on the receiver being "HARD;" maybe go as far as saying that's an understatement.

I ruined about three of my most expensive drill bits trying to drill through the receiver on my K-31 and they wouldn't even scratch the surface.

Something I found humorous only long after doing it was the hole I drilled into my thigh during one of my attempts at drilling the holes to mount these peep sights. I figured if I rested my rifle on my lap I could tip it back and forth to keep my drill bit from wandering all over the side of my receiver.

At one point it felt like the drill bit had finally started to catch so I applied a little more downward pressure, which immediately caused the drill bit to wander right over the edge of my receiver and into the top of my thigh. (Learn From This Children)

The drill bit was so searing hot from spinning around the surface of that receiver that when it punched into my thigh it didn't even bleed. I guess it must have simultaneously corderized the wound.

I finally wised up and went onto one of the Home-Gun-Smithing forums and someone there turned me onto some info on "Hi-Roc" drill bits. They cut through that hard metal receiver like butter.

We learn these things the hard way. At least I do.

When I first got this rifle I shot it about every other weekend. It's been a good year or so since I've had it out. Having stumbled onto this post has kind of given me the hankering to take it out again.

Heck, I had forgottem I even owned a K-31 till just now. Thanks for the reminder gentlemen.

HollowPoint

[excess650]

I had my "sporterized carbine" out for a bit of exercise today. I shot at 100 yards, trying to hold center in a 12" bull. 3 shots went just over an inch, but a couple of inches high of center. I'll take that result with a receiver sight and cast bullets any day! PP cases F210 primers 30gr H322 and Lyman 311644 200gr sized .311" and lubed with LBT Blue. It should be close to 2K fps.

[35 Whelen]

I've been looking with envy at the receiver mounted peep sights on some of the pics listed on this post. I would have loved to have mounted a set of those on my K-31.

I too bought mine from J&G Sales a few years ago. My eye sight is such that I either had to mount a scope or a set of peep sights.

I tried the scope but, I just couldn't get used to the Off-Center mounting so I ended up installing a set of inexpensive Peep sights I bought at a local gun show.

I'd have to completely agree with the statement about the metal on the receiver being "HARD;" maybe go as far as saying that's an understatement.

I ruined about three of my most expensive drill bits trying to drill through the receiver on my K-31 and they wouldn't even scratch the surface.

Something I found humorous only long after doing it was the hole I drilled into my thigh during one of my attempts at drilling the holes to mount these peep sights. I figured if I rested my rifle on my lap I could tip it back and forth to keep my drill bit from wandering all over the side of my receiver.

At one point it felt like the drill bit had finally started to catch so I applied a little more downward pressure, which immediately caused the drill bit to wander right over the edge of my receiver and into the top of my thigh. (Learn From This Children)

The drill bit was so searing hot from spinning around the surface of that receiver that when it punched into my thigh it didn't even bleed. I guess it must have simultaneously corderized the wound.

I finally wised up and went onto one of the Home-Gun-Smithing forums and someone there turned me onto some info on "Hi-Roc" drill bits. They cut through that hard metal receiver like butter.

We learn these things the hard way. At least I do.

When I first got this rifle I shot it about every other weekend. It's been a good year or so since I've had it out. Having stumbled onto this post has kind of given me the hankering to take it out again.

Heck, I had forgottem I even owned a K-31 till just now. Thanks for the reminder gentlemen.

HollowPoint

HP:
Do not despair...I recently discovered a very easy way to mount a good set of receiver sights on a K-31. All it requires is drilling and tapping for a #46 Weaver base, then mounting a Lipski base (available from Brownell's). I used my Dad's old scope base drilling jig that's set up for drilling Mausers. It required some very minimal modification. Any 'smith should be able to do this if'n you don't want to tackle it yourself. Here are the steps and what it looks like when all is finished:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010084.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010087.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010090.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010112.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/P1010109.jpg

Hope this helps.
35W

[excess650]

35W,
What are you using for a front sight with the Lipski base combo?

My "sporter carbine" has a Remington take-off ramp with green fiber optic bead, and allows me to "zero" at 50 yards. My uncut K31 with RPA sight will also adjust low enough for 50-100 yard shooting IF I use a small OD aperture from a Williams or some such, and this with the original front sight.

[HollowPoint]

I really like that style of peep sight. It's really a step up from my Lyman style peep that I have.

Since I already have mine mounted it wouldn't do me any good to drill more holes in
my receiver. I only wish I could had installed one like the one pictured above.

I also installed a "Globe-Style" front sight with a fine cross-hairs like that on some scopes.
It basically makes it work like a zero-power scope.

I can't explain how it works but, with my eye sight these peep sights just increase my
depth of field vision so that I can actually see what I'm aiming at.

Incidentally, after coming across this thread a couple of days ago it got me interested enough
to load about 100 rounds of CB's. If every thing goes as planned, it looks like I'll be taking
my K-31 coyote hunting this weekend.

A while back, I picked up a single cavity Lyman .30 caliber mold that Eric had hollow Pointed for me. Fifty of the bullets I cast yesterday are these hollow points. They look rather promising. It will be my first time shooting them out of my K-31 and I'm hoping for the best.

Take care gentlemen.

HollowPoint

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

This thread has been idle since November but, with the new year there will be more activity with the K31.

Aside from fine ( unobtainable ) nifty sights others have shown here this rifle of mine has continued to do nice work at the extended distances with the crudely modified issue sight I came up with.

Now, since I cross-over to the CBA I have sent for a set of the "Winter Military BR" postal targets that organization offers. This Class is restricted to " As Issued " rifles only. and this K31 still meets the criteria since I have re-installed the issue sight.

Today, in keeping with the "winter" title of the match I did the preliminary shooting to confirm the load I'll use for record. I ruled out the RCBS 30-165-SIL as loaded over 19.5 gr 4759 in favor of the SAECO 316 and the same amount of 4759 ~ the temperature at the range was 26 degrees.

I always worry some when I shoot at temperatures lower than freezing, wondering if the cold affects accuracy or lube performance very much.

The thread will reflect progress and final results of the shooting come 01 April.

Good evening,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

35W,
What are you using for a front sight with the Lipski base combo?

My "sporter carbine" has a Remington take-off ramp with green fiber optic bead, and allows me to "zero" at 50 yards. My uncut K31 with RPA sight will also adjust low enough for 50-100 yard shooting IF I use a small OD aperture from a Williams or some such, and this with the original front sight.

Excess,
So sorry I haven't responded to your question sooner! For the front sight I'm using an ordinary and plentiful Lyman 17. They slide perfectly between the ears of the front sight. I did D&T one of the ears for a 4/40 set screw though it's not pictured. Also, the side view shows the sight not quite pushed all the way in between the ears.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/K-31FrontPeep1-text.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1953%20K-31/K-31FrontPeep.jpg


I always worry some when I shoot at temperatures lower than freezing, wondering if the cold affects accuracy or lube performance very much.

Fasmus, I have on a number of occassions, shot our local High Power matches when the temps were below freezing. In fact, when I left the house for this months match, it was 16° F. It might have been up to a balmy 18°-20° by the time the match started. No problems at all and as usual, the rifle outshot me.

35W
35W

[excess650]

Gentelmen;

This thread has been idle since November but, with the new year there will be more activity with the K31.

Aside from fine ( unobtainable ) nifty sights others have shown here this rifle of mine has continued to do nice work at the extended distances with the crudely modified issue sight I came up with.

=
Good evening,
Forrest

While some of these sights might be unobtainable, others are quite plentiful, and even current production. The Redfield Palmas and such are out there, and show up quite often on Ebay. The Lipski base should be readily available, and more often found configured to match with a Redfield or Lyman and RPA sight. Williams also made a target rifle variety of the FoolProof receiver sight.

bases and sights are found here:
http://www.lprgunsmith.com/K31_rifles.htm

more sights:
http://iowahighpower.com/HPEG/rearsights.htm
http://www.swissproductsllc.com/
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17802

Swiss Products and Grafs isn't piccturing it, but along with the diopter rear is a clamp on globe front.

The NOE K31-180 mold is available NOW in the Vendor Sales section of this site, and (10) still available this morning.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103598

[FAsmus]

35 Whelen;

You have posted some very interesting material ~ I promise it won't be long at all before I try a 17A in the front ears of my K31!

Thanks for the feed-back on temperature shooting. Are you using anything special for lube?

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

excess650;

Thanks for the post.

Yes I've seen the Palma sights on eBay too and I know that if really went for it I could find something to fit this rifle of mine. ~ When I posted I was thinking of the amazing pictures of the rear sight 35W sent along awhile back.

The view for me regarding this K31 is that I want to keep it pretty much "as issued" so as to qualify for shooting in "As Issued" CBA postals. The modification I did to the issue sight (keeping an unaltered version in my parts box) makes this easy and still allows me to change over to higher than usual elevations for long range shooting when group shooting gets tiresome.

Roger the clamp-on sights too. They would work wonderfully I'm sure for all my purposes and I will keep your links on file. ~ For now the "project" gun is a M1908 Mauser. When its done or even semi-done it looks like the Swiss will be #1 for more shooting and improved sights.

The link to the NOE mold is really far out. I'm broke like everyone else but that looks so good I'll have to raid the stash and get one coming.

Good evening,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen;

You have posted some very interesting material ~ I promise it won't be long at all before I try a 17A in the front ears of my K31!

Thanks for the feed-back on temperature shooting. Are you using anything special for lube?

Good evening,
Forrest

Hope the material helps. Nothing special for lube. It's a home-made formula I found here in the sticky as per "Shrek":

This lube has worked well for me winter or summer. I use it mostly on rifle because my pistol bullets tend to be TL from Lee.
I got the base recipe from a gent by the handle of dmell.
By weight:
40 parts UNREFINED bee's wax
20 parts paraffin wax
20 parts Lucas oil stabilizer (high-grade, better than STP) or Morey's.
either 2 large kindergarten crayons or 1 wafer candle die, for color.
Heat the bee's wax over low heat, then add para. and stir until melted
Add the Lucas/Morey's and colorant and stir until well mixed.

I pour it into those cheap foil pans like you'd bake banana bread in, then slice slivers off of it to add to the lubrisizer.
I love the stuff and have been using it almost exclusively for 1 1/2 years or so. Bear in mind that while it was 18°F at this months match, our July and August matches are usually well into the upper 90's by the time we get to prone slow. I've never had any leading...ever.
Regards,
35W

[45-70bpcr]

Here is yet another way to permanently add peep sights. I went with the Parker Hale PH5a only because Larry Racine seemed to like them and at that time they were available on e-bay for a resonable price. Probably not so anymore. For a front sight I started with the 17a between the ears which worked fine. I had a Parker Hale PH1 front sight I wanted to use. Could not for the life of me figure out how to get the original front sight off so we ended up milling the ears completely down and using the remaining base to D&T to attach a block base. The PH1 sat too high so I ended up with a Lyman 93 I think. Plenty of elevation adjustment in the PH5a and it centered really well this way.

[FAsmus]

35 Whelen;

Thanks for the lube information.

I have been shooting Javelina for many years and its performance seems to be affected somewhat by low temperatures ( below freezing ). Shooting in the summer the temperatures sometimes run to excess of 100 degrees on the firing line. This makes the cartridges "bleed" the lube out of the case necks. No accuracy problems or leading though.

I have hesitated to brew up home-made lube but the way prices of the boughten stuff are these days I believe I'll give it a try this season ~ some of my big-bore shooting uses lube at 1/4 turn of the SAECO sizer handle for every bullet run through the procedure.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

45-70bpcr;

That is nice work.

How does the assembled rifle look?

With that tall elevation slide how far out can you reach with a typical cast bullet load?

Good morning,
Forrest

[45-70bpcr]

45-70bpcr;

That is nice work.

How does the assembled rifle look?

With that tall elevation slide how far out can you reach with a typical cast bullet load?

Good morning,
Forrest

Thanks Forrest. My friend with the mill thought of putting the flat on the side of the receiver to make coming up with a mount pretty simple. The mount is just a chunk of angle iron. The gun was already D&T for scope bases so I didn't mind more permanent metal work. I don't have any pictures of just the rifle but I do have one from the big silhouette match from last year. I was shooting the rams at 500 meters in the picture and had a bunch of elevation to use yet. I was shooting the 311299 with 32.0 Varget. I think running just over 1900 fps. 35 Whelen just sent me some loads for the NOE k-31 bullet to try. I'll still need the 311299 for the weight to help knock over the rams but really hope to get a good load for chickens, pigs, and turkeys with the NOE bullet. My other firend 40-60May has had good luck with IMR 3031 so I want to work with it and the NOE more also.

[excess650]

I recognize that person on the firing line!:bigsmyl2:

Whille I haven't shot the 311299(yet), I've decided the 311644 is a pretty good fit. The NOE mold is here, but I haven't had a chance to cast with it. Hopefully things will be sorted out prior to John's match.

[Latigo]

This is our front sight, and I hadn't noticed it was missing from our website.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/diopter4.jpg

This is our new 1,000 yard Diopter that goes with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/PSa.jpg

Latigo

[45-70bpcr]

I recognize that person on the firing line!:bigsmyl2:

Whille I haven't shot the 311299(yet), I've decided the 311644 is a pretty good fit. The NOE mold is here, but I haven't had a chance to cast with it. Hopefully things will be sorted out prior to John's match.

Oh ya?? Well now that have have shown my hand and my ugly face I will have to flush you out and then we can start working on some of these guys together to get them to come to the best rifle match on earth :-)

[35 Whelen]

Thanks Forrest. My friend with the mill thought of putting the flat on the side of the receiver to make coming up with a mount pretty simple. The mount is just a chunk of angle iron. The gun was already D&T for scope bases so I didn't mind more permanent metal work. I don't have any pictures of just the rifle but I do have one from the big silhouette match from last year. I was shooting the rams at 500 meters in the picture and had a bunch of elevation to use yet. I was shooting the 311299 with 32.0 Varget. I think running just over 1900 fps. 358 Whelen just sent me some loads for the NOE k-31 bullet to try. I'll still need the 311299 for the weight to help knock over the rams but really hope to get a good load for chickens, pigs, and turkeys with the NOE bullet. My other firend 40-60May has had good luck with IMR 3031 so I want to work with it and the NOE more also.

What does your 311299 weigh? I cast a 314299 and with WW's it weighs in the 205 Gr. range. The NOE bullet is pretty hefty itself; mine average 190 grs. with WW's. Is that enough to topple a ram?
35W

[45-70bpcr]

What does your 311299 weigh? I cast a 314299 and with WW's it weighs in the 205 Gr. range. The NOE bullet is pretty hefty itself; mine average 190 grs. with WW's. Is that enough to topple a ram?
35W

I just cast some of each so checked. My 311229 lubed and ready are 205 grn. and my NOE's lubed and ready are 190 same as yours. Every little bit of mass helps. The NOE may take some rams out but I rang a few last year even with the 311299. All depends on the wind, how hard they are set, hit location etc. All part of the fun. Sometimes no matter what you make a nice hit on one and leaves a big silver splat and the ram hardly quivers.

[excess650]

Oh ya?? Well now that have have shown my hand and my ugly face I will have to flush you out and then we can start working on some of these guys together to get them to come to the best rifle match on earth :-)

I've suggested to at least a couple of guys that they should head to Ridgway to at least experience it. There aren't a lot of places where you can shoot 500m, and certainly not with 10 banks of targets. The varmint rails at 850-1000 yards are quite a challenge, and almost necessitate a scope with a lot of elevation adjustment. I ran out at 700 yards last year with my scoped 30-06, but have since remedied the situation. I think I have 20 MOA past 1000 yards with my new scope and mounts.

My K31 with RPA sight is patiently waiting for spring. Hopefully I'll be able to get a globe front sight front Latigo. During the interim I'll have to try the 311299 and NOE K31-180 to see if they'll work as well as the 311644 and Saecos #301 and #315.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have decided to enter this K31 of mine in the CBA Winter Military Postal.

I used to shoot the postals a lot way back there, then came some extensive committal to the big-bore silhouette shooting as it is done in Montana.

I'll still go to those matches but frankly I need some variety these days and have turned to the shoot-by-mail military rifle game again.

If you fellows have not tried this you might give it some thought. Certainly it is possible to cheat but I scored for the CBA for many years and I don't think I ever saw any of that sort of thing going on.

Also, we all shoot lots of groups, sure, but it takes on a different feel when you shoot for record ~ even with the delayed gratification of a postal match.

The K31 has been returned to "As Issued" configuration for this shooting since that is the criteria for the match. So, no fancy sights and the same old eyes.

At the moment the SAECO 315 is shooting well over 19 grains 4759 but I will be trying the RCBS 30-165-SIL over 28 grains Varget as well as soon as my time off and the weather get together!

Due date for the target's return postmark is 01 April so I should have time to get in some good shooting.

Good evening,
Forrest

[35 Whelen]

FA,
For a year or so I've been shooting in my K-31, of all things Accurate #7. This powder burns somewhat faster than 2400. It is an extremely fine ball powder and meters very well. I settled on 14.0 grs. in my K31 with the NOE bullet.
I also tried this powder in a couple of my 1903's with equally gratifying results.
35W

[j20owner]

What sort of velocity do you think you're getting with the 14gr of AA#7?

[35 Whelen]

What sort of velocity do you think you're getting with the 14gr of AA#7?

First of all, I mis-spoke. AA#7 burns slightly faster than 2400. I'll have to check my book to see if I've chrono'ed it with the NOE bullet, but 1400 fps seems to ring a bell.
35W

[j20owner]

Alright, thanks for the info!

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

It was only 35 degrees today but I needed to test some loads anyway.

The best of the shooting was with SAECO 315 - which is a tapered bullet I just got from an estate sale more or less by accident. Since the bullet reminded me of my old Scheutzen days I loaded it light over just a little 700X ~ it worked quite well dropping groups around 5 x 1.500 or so with the issue sights back on the rifle.

The level of 700X worked well enough but the holes showed marginal stability, cutting out-of-round holes. I'll try just a bit more and re-test for groups.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[excess650]

Forest,
Try that Saeco over 21-22gr AA5744.

[FAsmus]

Excess 650;

I don't have any 5744 but I did try the equivalent 19 grain level of 4759. It shot quite a bit faster than the 700X and showed good stability but accuracy suffered.

Good evening,
Forrest

[j20owner]

I hate to clutter up FAsmus's thread anymore than it already is, but I just had to give a report! I loaded up some(5) 7.5s with the NOE boolit over 44.5gr of H4350. Don't ask where I got the amount, because I couldn't tell you! I shot them today over the chrony and was very happy with the results. Avg of 4 shots(loose nut behind the trigger forgot to turn the chrony on!) was 2244fps. Here's all 5 shots.
PIC (http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/179890_202629516420215_100000195049931_866333_1823 27_n.jpg)

The first shot(over the turned off chrony) was through the scope I've got mounted which is not sighted in very well. That's the hole below the target. The last 4(that were measured) are on the target with the irons. That was at 50yds. The load only had a SD of 18.5, too. :grin:

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Never to worry about "cluttering up" a thread of mine ~ digression and discussion is all part of the game.

I’m still working for a load to shoot the CBA Winter Postal with the K31 these days and the combinations are going like this;

I tested the SAECO 315 with very mild loads of 700X. At the lowest levels I could get good groups but out-of-round holes. With more power the instability went away but groups opened drastically. My most consistent shooting that week was with the RCBS 30-165-SIL over 29 grains Varget. No far-out tight groups but never anything over 2 inches or so either, which is at least semi-competitive in the “As Issued” military class. With my home-made peep in place of the issue notch I could always trim about ½ inch off the groups I’m currently getting.

The next session I went shooting the 315 over the 28 grain load of Varget, comparing it with the 10.2 grain load of 700X previously tested in the same conditions. The Varget load was better in that even though the groups were semi-open they were consistent while the 700X would occasionally print into 5 x 1.550 or so it would also toss bad flyers for no apparent reason fairly often. ~ It looks like I’ll have to choose between the RCBS 30-165-SIL and the SAECO 315 for shooting Record as they are pretty close in their accuracy.

My idea here is that the rifle will shoot as well as the barrel (and my eyesight) permits with the gentle 700X load but the barrel/stock bedding suddenly takes a jump that sticks at a stress point in the stock – tossing the flyer. This is compared to the mid-range Varget load that has enough power to jump around at every single shot fired – but averages out for better accuracy over the long run.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

The "As Issued" Winter Postal is over for me and the K31.

I decided to shoot the RCBS 30-165-SIL over 29 grains Varget for the match and it did very well shooting out there in a fairly pleasant 35-degree day (hardly any wind).

I was the problem in that I dropped one off one of the the four groups, opening it up beyond anything reasonable for finishing "in the money" but I was and am satisfied I did the right thing in my choice of the load as it continued to shoot very consistently into less than 2 inches over the issue sights. Not just some of the time or any flukes but ALL the time.

Do any of you other fellows ever shoot in the postals?

Good evening,
Forrest

[the other DWS]

I'm not sure where to post this, but since this is where the 7.5 guys hang out I'll try here. if the mods want to move it----well OK.

I have ordered a custom mould from David Mos for my 7.5 single shot back before the 1st of the year, basically the NOE mould design with mods, no GC rebate, a stop ring nd an added grease groove. BUT David is apparently real slow and my first centerfire match is coming up last weekend of this month.

I contacted AL about one of the NPE moulds----but just missed out on the last run. I'd have been willing to by one and shoot it w/o the gas-checks just to get the rifle shooting.

I'm wondering if anyone has a couple hundred of the bullets "as cast" without gas checks seated that they'd be willing to sell. I'd really like to get this rifle into action.

If so contact me at DWStiles at Hotmail dot com put "7.5 swiss" in the subject line

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Today I have fired another CBA Postal with the K31. The title of the Match is; "Winter Military Postal". The match is only open to "As Issued" military rifles of any nation. The restriction means that absolutely no modifications are permitted to the rifles.

We shooters take this kindly as it levels the field but none-the-less folks look for some wiggle-room in the rule. Like for example some shooters feel that if it was done by the armory of the issuing nation, it should be OK for an individual to address as well.

There are some folks out there who have fiddled with their K31s to minor degrees that could be traced to Swiss armories' search for more consistent accuracy.

I have looked for and researched these ideas over the last year and decided that things like tang screw tension and freedom of movement at the barrel/front band location could very well be "legal" because they involve no removal of material, glass-bedding or any other radical "accurazation" of the rifle.

I loaded test loads acquired from winner's data in various military match shooting.

My rifle has performed well over the years I have owned it but there always seemed to be that pesky flyer to blow a good series of groups. The rifle always gives me indications that it "wants" to shoot (at the level of sub-1.5 MOA) and so I'm not giving up on entering it in various "As Issued" Matches ~ regardless of my failing eyesight.

My load this time was different from last year and I did get a slightly better average group size. It has been fun working with the rifle over the winter season. Now, I may return the rifle to Summer configuration and put it on the line at long range with the modified sights for precise capability for adjustment of windage & elevation.

I hope some of you K31 shooters might tell some stories about their shooting times.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I went back and reviewed some of this thread where some members posted pictures of their modified sights. Here is what I have done to my K31 when I shoot it "regular" in the summertime at long range:

62898

Here you see my cut-off issue sight with a welded-on windage adjuster from an old Lyman 66 receiver sight. I drilled and tapped two holes for 6-40 cap screws to adjust precisely for elevation. One on each side since in really windy conditions a fellow will find his sight-picture obscured by the screw on one side or the other. Moving to the free side is simple and works.

Here is another view of the sight;

62904

Graduations made with White-Out and a pen.

Good evening,
Forrest

[madsenshooter]

In CBA competition your sight would place you in the Military, Modified, Iron Sight, class. For CMP or NRA it isn't legal, but not a big deal unless you happen to be at a match with a tech inspection. I'd like to be able to dial in the sight setting too, I might see if an extra windage adjustable sight I have for a Madsen rifle will fit the K31. Elevation adjustment of the Madsen sight is about like the K31s though.

[FAsmus]

Madsen:

Sure I know the modified sight blows the "As Issued" criteria.

The modified sight is never used for competition in the CBA "Issue-only" Class. For that I retained the original sight leaf and when comes time to enter the rifle in the Postal I simply switch it over for that use.

During the summer, when I shoot the K31 over our long range set of silhouettes the modified sight goes back on since this activity is casual, no rules except that cast bullets must be used.

Good morning,
Forrest

[fa38]

I have tried 4895, wc820, 4759 and Varget in my K31. It shoots best with 27 grains of Varget, Win LR Primer and RCBS 168 SIL.

[Bob S]

Simple sight option, like Forrest's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Finesightadjuster1.jpg

The adjustment screw is an 8 x 36 set screw. The length is tuned so that it is just out of the sighting plane at mechanical zero elevation. I can get past 1000 yards with this, but not with cast bullets. Windage is done on the front sight:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Annodizedcommercialfrontsightadjust.jpg

I can work this adjuster with one hande while I am in the sling without losing my position.

More to come, stay tuned ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

More complex, for NRA XC shooting:

Redfield sight base on K31:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/K31Redfieldbase.jpg

Redfield International on the base:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/Rear_sight.jpg

This same rifle now has a John Wilkes rear sight (grandfather of the RPA series of sights):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/JohnWilkes1.jpg

Anschutz double adjustable aperture front sight:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/front_sight.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[uscra112]

I have tried 4895, wc820, 4759 and Varget in my K31. It shoots best with 27 grains of Varget, Win LR Primer and RCBS 168 SIL.

Did you really mean twenty-seven grains of Varget? That seems like it's an awfully light load for that powder.

[FAsmus]

fa38;

Interesting loading report!

I wound up with virtually the identical load in my K31. There must be something going on here.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Bob;

Please tell us poor Wyoming types what NRA XC shooting is.

You sure have the sights for pretty much anything at all. Is there opportunity for any long rang shooting where you are?

I think I saw your modification of the standard sight way back there on some other thread. It gave me the idea of cutting down the Lyman 66.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Mark-II]

I just got out for the first time with a K11 and couldn't get better than a loose pattern at 75m.

I've got the RCBS 165 sil sized to .309 seated with the first band exposed. I tried both 2400 in the 16-20 grain range and 26-30 grains of H4895 in brand new privi brass.

I know I've made some mistakes. First off I was getting filthy case necks and shoulders and sometimes more with almost all loads, with the 2400 loads giving me noticeable blow back to the face (prescription safety glasses are a cheap investment). I only used a light crimp, and I know this is likely to blame for the poor sealing of the chamber.

Next, from what I'm reading here, I suspect .309 is too small to size the bullets. I will try some of my .311 ones next time out, with the same powder charges.

Interesting rifle, though, and a very nice trigger for a military arm. Unfortunately I think it has become a gateway gun, as I've bought a K31 and am eyeballing a Steyr M95 and a Ross rifle to round out the straight pull collection, along with possibly a Swiss model 1911 rifle.

[Bob S]

Bob;

Please tell us poor Wyoming types what NRA XC shooting is.


A little late answering questions here.

XC = "across the course", "the course" being the National Match course.




You sure have the sights for pretty much anything at all. Is there opportunity for any long rang shooting where you are?


I have lived ten minutes from Quantico (Range 4 is 1000 yards) since 1985. That was on purpose :smile:



Resp'y,
Bob S.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life ~ It reminds me that when I posted back there in March I'd just fired the Winter Postal for the CBA competition.

Here it is 7 months later and the results still say: "Coming soon!"

I wonder how the K31 did - and probably always will...

Good morning,
Forrest

[Fishman]

Forrest, are you saying that the postal matches on the CBA aren't being scored in a timely fashion? I had been debating on investigating that option since it would fit in my busy schedule. Id hate to do all that and not ever see the results.

This is a great thread by the way.

[fa38]

USCRA112 Did not mean to not answer your question
Did you really mean twenty-seven grains of Varget? That seems like it's an awfully light load for that powder.
Yes
But have given up on it (hard to find) in favor of 2400. I think the 2400 load shoots better anyway.
16.5 grains 2400, Win LR Primer, Hornady gas check. RCBS 165 SIL-nose cast .3995 or .300, Base bands .308 sized in a .309 die. This was my load for the CBA military matches this year.

I had about 40 bullets left over and decided to try a .310 sizing die to just size the gas check a bit bigger.

At 100 yards a very light wind from 7:00 across the range and I think about 55 degrees. Shot a different bullet for the two groups on the right and then shot the .310 sized RCBS 165 SIL bullets. I kept expecting to see a flyer as I shot the group. Good 10 shot groups are not supposed to be about luck but I think I had a bit of luck with that one.
8880088801

This url shows a picture of my son-in-laws with the same load sized with the .309 die in his K31 last summer.
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=9708&forum_id=52

[fa38]

Both my son-in-law and I have shot some pretty big groups with the same load but generally it works pretty good. The group was also shot with a 16x power scope.

[FAsmus]

Fishman;

Thanks for the post.

I have not checked for a week or two but the latest issue of TFS did not have the Winter Military (last March) results. This goes along with the CBA site where it still says - "Coming soon".

I think the targets were lost in the shuffle when there was no one to score at the beginning of the year.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Fishman]

Ahh, so not a systemic problem just one of those things.

[greengiant2465]

105844

I am looking for some dimension on the receiver of the 7.5×55mm Schmidt Rubin, can anyone help? Thank you in advance.