Kahr P45

[AnthonyB]

Anyone bought one yet? I'm a big fan of the Kahr P9 and am ready to take the plunge on the 45. Any firsthand experience here? Tony

[Buckshot]

............Not the 45. Shooting buddy Larry was looking at one to add to his CCW but ended up with the 9mm. I shot the 9mm at the range just after he picked it up. At 7 yards it placed a whole magazine load in a group the size of a silver dollar. I don't know if they make different versions but his had a polymer frame'

The steel slide made it feel a bit odd. Topheavy like all the wieght was above your fist (which it is). The sharp recoil driving that slide made the pistol really bounce in your hand. Did mine anyway. I'd imagine the 45 would just accentuate that sensation.

..............Buckshot

[straightshooter1]

I've been looking at the 45. My FFL has one with nite sites, and I like everything about it but the long grip. I have the PM9 which I carry in an Alessi ankle holster when I am working (career prosecutor here in Florida), but am kinda close to retirement (somewhere between 3 and 18 months-trying to decide) and I can carry the PM9 or my old 638 snubbie in a shorts or jeans front pocket. Can't get the 45 in right because of the long grip.

Kahrs are great shooters. I was a cop before going to law school and have shot all my life. With the snubbie on a typical "light challenged" indoor range, I can still make head shots on a standard police target MOST of the time at 45 feet but kinda slow. With my PM9 I can shoot a lot faster and am consistent. Someone with younger eyes and less arthritis and lower blood pressure, etc (this getting older is annoying, but the alternative...) could probably shoot it a lot better.

The 45 feels good, but I am hoping, though I don't know if it will happen, that they will make it with the short grip.

If I was gonna carry inside the waist band consistently, I would not hesitate to buy this 45. But most of my "off duty" carry is in the front pocket and it just won't work for me.

Hope you buy one and let us know how it works.

Bob

[StarMetal]

Buckshot,

You just described the Glocks with their steel slides and polymer frames. I'll have to say though, my Glock 21 (45acp) doesn't have the same recoil feel of a 1911, it's much milder. Might be that nice thick rounded back edge grip spreads it out more.

Joe

[C1PNR]

If I'm going to carry a really small large caliber auto, I've been looking at the Kahr P40 in 40 S&W (I know, Short & Weak:???: ) to replace even lighter .380 or .32 ACP Astra, Walther, and Colt pistols.

I'm really interested in how you feel about the .45. A standard length grip could be problematic, though, for CCW use.

[AnthonyB]

I should have the 45 in a few more weeks and will let you guys know how it shoots. I have a P9 customized to the Covert configuration (grip shortened to PM size) back before the Covert and PM were introduced. It is a very nice little pistol and a joy to shoot, although the recoil is just like Buckshot stated.

C1PNR, I chose to avoid the 40 because it doesn't appear to be a very cast friendly round. There is no doubt about the rounds effectiveness. I plan to use the 45 for belt carry, and the custom P9 will be for pocket duty in the summer. Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

Contrary to popular belief the 40 S&W is a cast friendly round. Why wouldn't it be? I sent Deputy a few pages out of a magazine with loads and stories about shooting cast out of the 40. The author said the same thing you just did until he tried cast in it. You don't load them to the blistering pressures of the factory stuff. He said it shot cast quite well and I belief Al is going to try it.

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe, every handgun I shoot gets loaded to factory equivalent velocities with lead, so the 40 wouldn't be very friendly for my purposes. That, combined with the fact that most range brass in my area comes from Glocks has discouraged me from buying one. Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

Explain why the 40 loaded to factory specs, or close, wouldn't be. I assume the 40 you have, if you have one, isn't a Glock. It's not like the barrels, bore, rifling, or brass is any different from any other round. Don't give me the pressure story because the 9mm is the same way. You know I don't buy the Glock stories one iota.

Joe

[felix]

True, Joe, it ain't the 40 caliber itself. Like BA says, just give us a conventional barrel for real boolits. Hopefully, you can get them having a real boolit twist for the bore. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

We've gone over and over this rifling thing too. It's not the rifling. More then a handful of shooters on our forum have shot ALOT of lead out of Glocks, including myself, with no problems and with no build up. I posted pictures of bullets driven thru Glock and HK barrels and Glocks is really different then HK's polygonal bore. Glocks grooves and lands are have more or less rounded tops and bottoms. HK's is truely unique...like they twisted the barrel is best way to explain. Like one poster and myself said that if a Glock fires out of battery, or any pistol, how does it blow the barrel when the action is slightly open to let the web blowout and vent the gases down thru the magazine well? I've seen this on 1911's quite a bit. It's just like nobody knows 100 percent about SEE, nobody knows what Glocks exact problem is, that is if it even has one. I've seen alot of range brass too and I don't buy 40's fired in Glocks is anymore damaged then any other make firearm. You know it's easy to spot Glock fired brass because it has a funny firing pin dimple in the primer...it's kind of rectangular. It's like a placebo I believe, one picks up the brass, immediately sees the primer indentation, and then buys all the ******** stories about Glock. Sorry but that's the way I feel.

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe, I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking and I don't own a 40 S&W. I don't consider it lead friendly for ME for the reasons already stated; others are welcome to their own opinions. The combination of high-pressure, heavy boolits, and Glock brass concerns me enough to avoid the 40. I don't have the same brass concern with the 9mm because I can get all the brass I need from military ranges and know it was fired once in an M9. I load it once and let it go; there's plenty more where that came from. Could I make the 40 useful with lead? Sure, but it would take too much work for my tastes. Why bother when I can now buy a 45 that is only slightly larger than the 40 and be back in my low pressure, big boolit safety zone? Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

True what you say, your beliefs that is. I guess we could say the same things about the 10mm Glocks huh? We never heard one little bit of trouble with those. Tony I'm not picking on you or anyone....what I'm doing is trying to get to the bottom of this Glock thing. I push because pushing getting folks moving and gets results. Sorry if I seem harsh. I know you know your poop. Example you stated how well that RCBS 45 Cowboy bullet is for the 45acp. Well I got the mould and it's a beauty alright, just like you said. Don't you ever shoot any target lead out of your various pistols instead of full hilt all the time?

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe, I think the difference with the 10mm is that there are a whole lot less people shooting them than the 40. I agree on the Glock barrels, I shoot nothing but lead in my M30 and have never had a problem. I also agree that the brass from a Glock 45 is no big deal - cases fired from the Glock will easily drop into the chamber of my 1911s. I can't say anything about 40 brass because I don't own one.
The only exception to my factory equivalent rule is the 44 Mag, which I load down to 44 Special levels for the kids and to 1200 fps with the 44-250K for myself. I don't think driving the 44-250K faster would make any difference.
I load this way because I carry cast more than jacketed loads and don't want any confusion. I use jacketed for CCW in "people" places, but everything else is cast.
The Saeco #58 is another great boolit in the 45 ACP. Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

Don't now about the 10mm. It was around before Glock came out with a gun for it. Colt even beat them to it. Jeff Cooper was toying with it even longer ago. When the Colt come out they really pushed the envelope. Everything was fine except the 1911 was taking a battering. Colt took folks hunting deer and wild boar. The round killed like a 44 mag at distance even. The FBI picked it up and decided the recoil was too much and had a reduced loading. Then the 40 S&W was born. The 10mm had been shot enough and I'd say abused by loading to the very edge of distruction, yet with no bad things happing like we heard about the Glock in 40 S&W.

Joe

[straightshooter1]

There have been a number of "kabooms" w/Glocks and, it seems, most were 40s. Most of the time it was a load problem, three different "Clays" for example and folks mistaking the data from one for another. That is not the fault of the gun or the cartridge.

That being said, it does seem a lot of Glock fired brass has the "guppy belly" and, even if that's not a weak point, it is a pain to resize.

The "u" die is one way, it's an undersized Lee sizing die used by a lot of action pistol shooters. These can be purchased from Lee I think though most I know purchased them from EGW. A couple of reasons for this die-one is it sizes out any "guppy belly" whether from Glock or some other barrel and-two- lots of them have match barrels like Bar-Sto or KKM. These seem to have a tighter chamber. I have the KKM and it is definitely tighter than the factory barrel. Using the Lee
Factory Crimp in the last station of the Progressive press (I can't imagine loading lots of pistol rounds on a single stage-sorry) is another helper since there is a carbide ring that resizes the entire cartridge. This last is more controversial among the action pistol shooters than the "u" die and many think it sizes the lead bullet too much and should be restricted to use with the jacketed ones. I have had no problem so far but wouldn't blame another reloader for not using one.

Roll sizing is what many professional reloaders do. Mine charges me about $10 per thousand. It is cheaper to buy once-fired from him since he always roll-sizes is 40s and visually inspects each and every one.

I just got the KKM barrel. Before that I used a lot of lead in Glocks with no trouble. Many now claim that kabooms are the result of lead followed by jacketed, but I have fired thousands of both without cleaning and had no problems.

The 40 is lead friendly-it is the barrels that can be a problem i.e. some don't like semi-wadcutters. The same is true with the 45 ACP.

Bob

[StarMetal]

Good report straightshooter. I still find it hard to believe that firearm manufacturer like Glock would put out a product that exposed more web area of a high pressure pistol cartridge, especially in the light of todays liability lawsuits. Further, if they did, why wouldn't they correct it? Don't anyone dare say maybe they don't know....they know. I just don't know what to think. I sure a heck don't want to go out and buy a 40 S&W Glock, not because of the Glock, but because I hate the round never having owned one. The reason: The reason is they had a good round in the 10mm and had 10mm reduced velocity rounds, and it was apparently too much pistol in the full load for some folks. So big ass name Smith & Wesson comes out with the 40 and just about kills the 10mm. That's why I don't want one. Anyways I just can't fathom that Glock would put out a dangerous barrel.

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe:
Are you telling me that I spent an unproductive part of my work day defending my reasons for not owning a 40 from the attacks of someone who "hate{s} the round having never owned one?" From what you wrote, I thought you had experience with the 40 and challenged my opinions based on past results.
Dean Speir has something to say about Glock's failure to acknowledge problems on the Gun Zone, but I have no personal knowledge and cannot comment. Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

I've owned all the other Glocks around it, but not the 40. Saw no reason for it with a 10mm. A person, who knows a wee tiny bit about guns and reloading, has to know that something just isn't right.
Either people are picking and the Glock is okay, or Glock got a bad pistol out. I'd like to see about 100 Glock in 40 S&W and examine their barrels and see how many do expose too much of the web. From all the pictures posted on the web I have seen some that were just as tight as other brands. I just wonder if some bad ones got out.

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe said:
I've owned all the other Glocks around it, but not the 40. Saw no reason for it with a 10mm. A person, who knows a wee tiny bit about guns and reloading, has to know that something just isn't right.
So is the 40 cast friendly or not? Seems like you are arguing my point now. Tony

[StarMetal]

Tony,

The main point about Glocks I was agruing is whether the ones in 40 S&W are truely bad or not.

If my stance is that Glock isn't worse then any other pistol out there, then 40 S&W is cast friendly. At any rate it's cast friendly in another brand if one is leery of Glock. The brass is built for high pressure, the guns built to take it, and like any other small capacity high pressure round you have to be very careful when reloading for it and creep up on max slowly. What would be different then the 40 and say a 9mm Super or a 38 Super? I'd say the 10mm but you said it hasn't been around enough.

Joe

[AnthonyB]

Joe, how can you post about it if you haven't shot and loaded it?
Tony

[StarMetal]

Because it's not different then many other pistol cartridges...tell me what's different from the others I've mentioned and loaded for? Do you think there are any commonly available rifle cartridges that you couldn't load for? It was Mike Venturino that did a cast loading article about the 40 S&W. He said all the things I hear here...so he got one and loaded for it, and found it was cast friendly.

Joe

[carpintx]

If you care to read the factory manuals that come with the Glock and the Kahrs you will see that they specifically state that because of the design of their rifling (it's not cut conventional rifling) that lead bullets should not be used. There's even mention of "Warranty" being voided in such cases.

There must be a reason for their positions

[C1PNR]

If you care to read the factory manuals that come with the Glock and the Kahrs you will see that they specifically state that because of the design of their rifling (it's not cut conventional rifling) that lead bullets should not be used. There's even mention of "Warranty" being voided in such cases.

There must be a reason for their positions
First thing is WELCOME carpintx to the group!! Now, on to the topic at hand.

Do I remember correctly (or is CRS intervening again) but didn't S&W say for years, and maybe still, to NOT use reloaded ammunition in their firearms? If you did there could be warranty issues? And that was quite a long time ago, in the early days of our Litigious society.

I think it may have had to do more with their products standing up to the perceived increase in wear and tear brought on by heavier loads.

A lot of time and water under that bridge, and now they even have some K frame .357 Magnum models again.

I don't like shooting the Glocks. I've tried about 3 or 4 of them over the years and just am not comfortable with the trigger, or something. I just don't like them.

As mentioned earlier, I am thinking of a Kahr P40 for CCW, and would probably restrict that particular firearm to factory jacketed fodder. But I'll now wait for word on the .45.[smilie=1:

[fecmech]

Carpintx--I purchased a Kahr K9 new last year and the manual that came with the gun made no mention of lead bullets either pro or con. The warranty is void with any kind of reload and the manual recommends not using "surplus, carbine or budget priced ammunition". That said I ran about 3k of cast thru the gun before I sold it with little leading and good accuracy. If they made the gun in single action I'd buy another one in a heartbeat. I am more of a target shooter and could shoot the Kahr pretty good but swapped it for a Hipower. Nick