Cast .308 rifle ammo

[Diegokid]

I am fairly new to casting bullets and have some questions. Using wheel weights for my pistols has been fun and with two pistols they shoot more accurately than with plated. I have some 50/50 mix lead/tin soldering sticks, (100) of them. My question is what ratio should I use with wheel weights for 308 rifle for hunting.
One pound solder per ten pounds wheel weights? Any suggestions.


Diegokid

[sundog]

Diego, I wouldn't add any if they cast good. I'd be more concerned about things like fit (throat and bore), twist and boolit length, and finding the right powder and charge to push them as fast as possible with best accuracy.

If they don't cast correctly, add only enough to get them to cast. Make a note of how much you added, and that should be it. I'd start with 1/2 lb of solder (1/4 lb tin) in 10 lb WW, and go from there, but only if you need it. Use the solder sparingly.

Generally speaking, if you have a good boolit fit and a decent barrel, you should no problem getting well over 2000 fps with straight ww. Well, that's what I think, anyway.... sundog

[7br]

You are probably going to get a wide range of answers on this one. This is my .02 and your mileage may vary,

I smelted about 100 lbs of wheel weights and threw in 10 lbs of 50/50 bar solder about 15 years ago. I am down to the last 5 lbs or so. As I recall, this is basically the lyman #2 alloy. Works well in my 7mm moulds and very well in my .41 cal moulds. I am just getting into .22 and 6mm and so far it hasn't played as nice. Both moulds are new to me and I need to make sure I reclean them and figure out the correct temp.

You might have better response to this thread under the Cast Bullets sub forum. This sub-forum is usually used for technical issues with the forum itself. Shooters.com is a hold over from a previous board with a bunch of general stuff. Most of the others are kind of self explainatory.

Welcome aboard and hope you have fun.

[felix]

Mark, 22's freeze too quickly with too much tin. You want them as heavy as possible anyway, so here the addition of tin should be minimized to just enough for the job given the mold and ambient conditions. Run the mold and pot at max temp. Try and find a source of used European pellets (RWS match, for example) in town. The local colleges? These pellets have lots of Bismuth, which adds weight to the mix. ... felix

[sundog]

7br, you are so right. For every one of us there will be a different answer, and the neat things is it all works or we wouldn't be doing it. There's one other thing I'd like to add. No matter what the alloy, you still have to find a sweet spot, and that's the load no matter what speed its going.

The main reason I responded to this thread is that I have recently started playing with batches of quenched (from the mould) and oven heat treated boolits (308-165-SIL) in a factory stock .308 700 VS with a 12 twist bbl. These boolits are purdy danged hard and may not be at all suitable for hunting, but so far accuracy is better at higher velocities than their air cooled kin.

30 cal boolits aren't that hard to cast. As you go smaller it becomes more of a challenge and the addition of tin often helps getting a better fill. 25 cals are tougher and 22s are tougher yet. That's why I suggested not using more than necessary. I'm thinkin' that with straight ww (and a GC) and a decent lube and a good bbl, you will easily reach the sweet spot, regardless of speed, whether that is 1650, 2000, or 2400.

Let's not forget we can also measure the performance in rpm, that's why I mentioned twist. I kinda see 130K as a sort of threshhold for going to a harder boolit. If you need to go faster and can't, then you gotta go harder and tougher to get more speed, then you may no longer have a good hunting boolit, either to brittle and/or no expansion. It's all gotta fit together.

I do know that a straight ww 30 cal boolit at 1600 fps will kill a deer. It'll shoot plumb through it out quite a ways if it doesn't hit a lot of bone. Doesn't make any difference what cartridge it's launched from, 30-30, .308, 30-06, .303, etc. Once it leaves the muzzle, it's ALL external ballistics. That's why the silly discussions about what's the best deer hunting cartridge or so boring! Okay, I'm done now. sundog

[Dale53]

I typically add about 2% tin to WW for most of my bullets. If I need them harder, I add a percentage of linotype to the mix.

Try adding 5% of your solder to the WW and see what happens. I am betting that will work quite well.

Dale53

[Char-Gar]

I agree that straight air cooled wheelweight is what you need for hunting. I am a little more conservative that some about how fast you can push this alloy.

I try and keep ACWW to 2K fps or less. I have pushed it beyond with good results. I have also pushed it beyond with poor results. When you start skating on the 2K fps edge the individual rifle, bullet and bullet fit take over as to the suitability of ACWW.

A good hunting load in the .308 can be found at 2K fps or less and that is where ACWW truly shines.

I do shoot some rifles in the 2.2 - 2.3K fps range with excellent result, but I use good old Lyman No. 2 when I do. I wouldn't think twice about smaking a critter with a good No 2 bullet at that speed.

[Char-Gar]

Sundog...Keep us posted on 165 SIL in your 700VS...as you know I shoot the same bullet in the same rifle.

I have found that 49/WC872/165 SIL/ACWW will give me excellent accuracy. However push any faster and things to to hell real quick. Add even a one gain of 3031 kicker and groups open to four times the size. Just the switch to a magnum primer will open the groups open up double. You observations about the limits of alloy vis-a-vi twist are spot on.

I have a batch cast up from No. 2 and will give them a try this spring. I would like to know how your tempered bullet do.

I am out of WW alloy, although I have three hundred pounds of raw wheel weights waiting to be smelted when I get my round tuit.

[David R]

I have a Stevens 200 in 308 with a 1 in 12 twist. It seems to have a speed limit of less than 2000 fps. 1975 fps, fine. 2025, groups open up. this is with ACww or WQ WW both with about 2.5% tin. A full case of WC860 and a 190 grain 311644 is my best load so far. I put 5 in 1 3/8" @ 100 yards. One ragged hole at 50 yards. 311644 seems to shoot in that gun no matter what powder I use or how slow they go.

If you can't get the velocity you want, go to a heavier boolit to get the power. A 220 grain at 1900 fps has a lot more whomp than a 150 at 1900 fps.

Just push em till the accuracy goes south.

If you are looking for expansion, check them in wet phone books or water jugs. Some even use a swimming pool.

Have fun testing.
David

[Diegokid]

Thanks for all the info. In a nutshell I get to play a lot just like working up high power loads for service rifle. Dang the good luck.

[jh45gun]

The only thing I can add is that use a bullet that has a good flat tip on it. I shot two deer a couple of years ago with my 308 Encore pistol using cast bullets and I loaded a load using 2400. If I remember right according to the book it was around 1800 fps. Plenty good to kill both them deer but one bullet was rounded on the buck I shot and it worked but not as good as a flat tipped bullet. The second a Doe I shot with the same bullet but I flattened the tip by filing a small metplate on it and it worked much better. So I would reccomend a flat point bullet for hunting using cast bullets expecially when it is a 30 cal.

[Bass Ackward]

Diego,

Everyone else gave you about the whole gambit with their ideas.

Now comes the warning. Do NOT excede the antimony content with tin or you lose hardness. Especially so if you ever decide to heat treat.

Otherwise, I would say that you simply need to match your load to your gun and then test expansion. At rifle speeds, there isn't a lot of difference in game performance in bullet hardness between 12 BHN (ACWW) and 15 BHN (Lyman#2) in 30 caliber because the bullet diameter is small enough it will expand some. But it will affect what velocity level you need to run by about 200 fps or so. To look at this in the game field, it will affect your minimum and maximum expansion ranges which will only be established through expansion testing.

[sundog]

Well, I been playin' with it. Working on a bunch of WQ 308-165-SIL and ran about 6 or 7 powders thru all at about 2100 fps. Winner? IMR 4064. So I went to the rainy range (got that? RAINING on Oklahoma!!!) and shot a few more groups at 36, 37, and 38 grains. Winner? 38. Group shrunk up real nice. I've had success before with 4064 and cast in 30-06. If I can, tomorrow I will take my range box and shoot from the all wx shooting bldg and load right there and see if I can pin something done. I have both WQ and HT boolits to play with out to 200 yards - even if it's raining. Other than sooting the necks, it's a clean load. sundog

[felix]

Corky, try one more group at 39 grains! The group should just start opening up over the 38 grain group. Shoot the 38 again, to establish the base in the current ambient condition. Why 39? Because that is the standard Fort Benning target load in 12 twist barrels with the 168 Sierra BR boolit. When they tried 40 grains, the group did open up some. 38 grains under lead, should roughly equal 39 grains under copper. ... felix

[felix]

Corky, I have that 311644 mold talked about above. You can have that one to play with. It won't require nearly the work the 225646 (sister boolit) did to make boolits correctly. The boolit is a mite heavy for 100, but should work el supremo at 200 given the funky Tulsa wind currents. Circa 200 grains for 200 yards. ... felix

[felix]

We need to schedule the 22 shootout. ... felix

[buck1]

I just wanted to second sundogs good luck with the 165 Sil ! But 4064 came in a distant 2nd first was Imr 3031. 2400Fps from a 14" tube holds 1" at 100 YD. BUT my bullets were about 22BHN with all kinds of lube voodoo. I bet WQ WW would serve you well. I test in water soaked news paper at all ranges before hunting.
Also put those little boolits on a scale and figure 3/10 gr range, Cut my groups in half that way. Just my $0.02 ....Buck

[felix]

Buck, how many grains? ... felix

[sundog]

Buck, 3031 was one of the powders tested, and it did not impress. What was your charge?

Felix, 22 shootout. Yes.

So what is it with 4064? I shoot it in the M1 Garand and a bolt .308 with 168 BTHP and it shoots better than 4895. I've shot it with cast in '06 and it shoots better than 4895. Doesn't run thru the dump worth a crap for cracking granules, but meters okay volumewise.

We've had our corned beef and cabbage dinner. Mmmmmm. I'm fuller than two ticks. This is the first time that my grand daughter (post card project) has had a real Irish feed. She liked it. The grated horse radish might have been a little strong, but she took a likin' to the corned beef, cabbage, and red new potatos. Good girl! SIL ate hisself silly. Good boy!

Felix, if I get to the range tomorrow, I will run up and down the weights around 38 and see what gives. Still raining in Oklahoma. Pleasant. Fires are all out for the time being. Our fire fighters have done an outstanding job dealing with this!!! sundog

[sundog]

Buck, those boolits currently testing are 173.0 naked plus or minus .5. I'm with you about weighed boolits. Batches are visually culled and then weight segregated. Lube is big batch FWFL and GCs are from the last group buy. Life don't get no better. sundog

[sundog]

Welllll, I shot alot of .308 ammo and it was a dismal failure for accuracy. Soooo, I started backing off, a little at a time with faster powders, and at 50 yards (went home after the range visit) I can just about one hole with the 700 VS LH (Chargar, ya listenin'?). But the load is not where -'I'- want it to be, it's where it shoots bestest. WQ 308-165-SIL, group buy GC, sized .310, Win brass several times 'farred' and neck sized, and 32.0/surp IMR 4895 (new mfg). Soooo, next range trip will be some loaded for hunert and two hunert yard test. Prolly next Saturday when out NRA Hing Power season starts up. This is fun. sundog

[felix]

Oh! Crap. Thought we were on a trail of good fortune! Hopes were high on this end for a fast shootin' load. I guess we are back to 30-30 loads in that 308, eh? ... felix

[sundog]

Oh, crap, is right. Yea, I guesstimate ~2000. Something's not quite right. Those boolits were hard, too. We've either got a throat fit problem or maybe the lube is not hard enough, or.... I know one thing, the loads I've worked have shot better without dacron than with. Now, ya gotta premember that this bbl doesn't have all that many rounds through it yet, but cast ought to be doing better by now.

On another note, we've had some purdy good rains the last two days, and maybe the fires are out for awhile here in eastern Oklahoma. Well, I don't spend much time in front of the TV, but it's time to go watch "Stage Coach" with John Wayne (the original in B&W). With a bag of popcorn and a cold beer, maybe I can pick some pointers. sundog

[Bass Ackward]

Oh, crap, is right. Yea, I guesstimate ~2000. Something's not quite right. Those boolits were hard, too. We've either got a throat fit problem or maybe the lube is not hard enough, or.... I know one thing, the loads I've worked have shot better without dacron than with. Now, ya gotta premember that this bbl doesn't have all that many rounds through it yet, but cast ought to be doing better by now.


Corky,

Well ya gotta remember that it's only a guideline. My Remington "stainless" started with MOA shooting cast like cast but I darn stuck the action with my first HV cast load at plus 100 rounds. It took 400 rounds of jacketed in a stainless to come round. And of coarse I am shooting the same load today. But with 14 BHN bullets. Never tried hard ones except at the 1800 fps level. Isn't that a 12 twist too?

[David R]

It took the wally world Stevens a couple of hundred rounds to help it shoot better. First I shot 50 or so, then shot a bunch of lead. 50 more and I noticed the improvment in how it shoots lead. It still has a 2,000 speed limit. 1975 and they shoot well, 2025 groups go to heck.

Good luck, fun aint it?

David

[sundog]

Bass, yes, 12 twist. It will do full length condums more than satisfactorily (sub MOA at 200 which is the longest distance shot with it so far).

David, thought about it over the weekend, and like yours, I may need to run a few hundred more ball through it yet to help it out. Hey, still get to shoot, right? This thing's a shooter, so spending a little time with it is well worth it. Poor man's M24 is what it is with a Simmons mil-dot. sundog

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, yes, 12 twist. It will do full length condums more than satisfactorily (sub MOA at 200 which is the longest distance shot with it so far).



Corky,

I am not sure I was clear from your responce. My Remington shot the 311284 and 20 grains of 4759 right at an inch brand new with no leading. At 100 rounds of jacketed, I shot a very good group with 150 grain jacketed using Varget and was not coppering hardly at all. So I assumed that the barrel was fully broken in at that point.

I proceeded to load up a load of 56 grains of RL19 with a 160 grain bullet that should have been only 34,000 psi and stuck the case badly. It took 400 rounds and now it shoots the same load with 14 BHN sub MOA with that load and no signs of pressure right at 2600 fps. In fact, the case necks are sooty which indicates that pressure is coming up so slow enough that the case isn't sealing quite right. But it works.

If you want to know if this is the problem, try your same bullet with say about 45 grains of RL19 or IMR 4831 with a magnum pistol primer and kiss the lands. (Right around 28K psi) Should be around 2250 (usually a sweet spot) and see if the groups are as bad. If the groups are better, then I would say that you simply aren't broken in enough yet. If not then it might be the bullet design. I think that is a bore rider correct? I can send you some of my 160s in a one diameter bullet to try if you like. Should just fit your throat if it is SAAMi speced. This is an LBT spitzer design.

[sundog]

Bass, at 39-40/IMR4064 I am getting the sooty neck thingy. It looks like its wants to group, but there are too many strays. Tried Varget and H4831SC, too, but not with mag primers.

About copper fouling, I get hardly any. 'Course that doesn't mean that I still don't need to run a couple three hunert more of them through it.

Here's what I'm thinking, and I was thinking this before you mentioned it. The RCBS 165 shoots really good up to 2000. I was just getting ready to load to 311284s. Glad you mentioned it. I'll give your gig a whirl and report back. In the meantime I get to squeeze the trigger a whole lot a get real used to this piece. It really is a purdy nice rifle. sundog

[felix]

Corky, I have that 165 LBT that BA is talking about. Already lubed and ready to go at 311. Also, gots that Lyman 311644 target model. ... felix

[sundog]

Yea, we can try them, but my gut is telling me it's not necessarily the boolit as much as barrel condition (break in) and boolit fit.

I've cleaned real good a couple times while this testing has ensued and only once got a minute spec of lead - that was Sunday and the only time - and that after some speed and heat. The barrel does not foul much at all, and it cleans real easy.

I can't ask for more than the RCBS 165 does at the speed they do so well at. After all, I'm the one that's always mouthin' off about running speed up until groups go south and then backing down to minimum group size and call that the load. They're that good, and maybe that's all this bbl will ever endure. And that's fine, but I'm gonna keep trying for more speed (accuracy required). If that's it, than that's the load. Fine. Itty bitty groups. sundog

[sundog]

Yesterday at the range I got a couple good 5-shot groups at a hunert with 32.0/Varget and ACWW/FWFL RCBS 30-150-FN. Had to leave, so further testing when I get back to it. sundog

[9.3X62AL]

Not trying to go TOO FAR off topic here.......I have a nice assortment of various 30 caliber rifles, but have hesitated to use them on game animals larger than coyotes with cast boolits. My concern is crippling loss--and I do have 36 and 45 caliber lead flingers available.

I suppose this question also applies to the fat 30's and the 8mm/32 Special--just how good are these mid-sized cast boolit rifles on deer-sized game? Would Lyman #311041 or a semi-custom heavier version of this boolit do the job, assuming good placement? I am not deeply experienced on deer-taking (7 so far), so any experienced info would be appreciated. My "gut twitch" tells me that 35 caliber+/200 grains+ with flat meplat profile is a sort of "floor caliber" guideline, but I have tumbled one whitetail with a 357 Magnum revolver--146 grain Speer HP @ 1400 FPS about 15 yards off the muzzle. So, I know it CAN be done--and there wasn't much bloodshot tissue, either--but it's not like fly-fishing for tarpon, where the only downside is a snapped leader if the tackle is too light.

What say thee, y'all?