Frosted WW Boolits

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I'm going to run a search after I post this, but I think that this may be peculiar to my situation.

Last week I cast 10lbs of .45acp boolits using pure lead and 95/5 tin solder. After the initial trials, the boolits came out nice'n'shiny.

Bought 8lbs of wheel weights today, and cast them all. Same temp, same process (water drop, also tried ice drop, but mostly water), similar weather temps.

They were all frosted. They work, but I like 'em shiny!

The pure lead / solder mixture demanded a setting of about 8 on the dial, which goes to 10.

The WW stuff was doing fine at 7, and I even turned it down a bit further for a bit.

What is going on here? Do I just need to adjust the temps down a bit more for the different mixture of the wheel weights?

I set the temp high originally because I'm using a Lee mould.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[Buckshot]

.............The surface of the boolit is indicative of mould temperature.

http://www.fototime.com/2D536DBA57B9FA1/standard.jpg

The above boolit (Lee 358-158-RF) was cast at the SAME alloy temp. They were dropped from a 6 cavity mould. The difference in appearence was caused by altering the temp of the mould blocks. This then also has an affect on how fast the alloy gives up it's heat, or solidifies. Since I'm not an engineer and don't understand the metallury of what's happening, to me it's simply mould temp. IIRC the alloy temp was up around 850*.

Left boolit: The blocks were kept much cooler. I had a folded up shop rag sitting in a saucer of water. After filling the cavities the sprueplate was dragged across the rag. When the boolits were dropped, the bottom of the closed mould was slowly dragged across the rag then re-filled.

Middle boolit : Similar to the above except the mould blocks themselves weren't cooled, just the sprues.

Right boolit: Due to the poor definition of the photo you cannot see the difference between this one and the frosted one. However there was a noticeable one. In this case nothing was done to cool the sprues or the mould blocks. The surface was shinier then the frosted boolit, but the surface was coated with a crystaline pattern very similar to electroplated galvanised steel. The exception was naturally the structure was much smaller.

I used to have the measurements of these 3 boolits but don't recall where I had it :-) I do remember that the frosted (middle) one was a tad smaller then the other 2. Also, the left very shiney boolit had a higher percentage of imperfections then the other 2. These would be the occassional rounded edges, dulling of sharp corners. This was due to the less then precise cooling from pour to pour. Not a big problem, regardless.

The middle boolit usually cast sharp. The only problem was operator error in striking the SP a bit too soon now and then. This resulted in torn sprues on the boolit's base.

The same (and worse) issues cropped up with the right, high temp boolit. The sprue would appear to set up, but striking the SP would smear bright shiney molten lead across the blocks. It took some time to cast letting the blocks air cool and casting hot. On the other hand the resulting boolits were almost painfully sharp featured and well defined.

................Buckshot

[MtGun44]

Nothing wrong with frosty. If the diam is right, the fillout is right (and in my
experience fill out is best with hot metal and hot mold = frosty) try shooting
some. If the targets are right, stop liking shiny and start liking frosty. ;-)

Bill

[EMC45]

My bullets are coming out sharp and frosty, but they soon get rounded edges upon cooling and the rounded parts are real frosty. Does this make sense? Also have had some "grow" little inclusions on the surface of the bullet. What causes this?

[GabbyM]

Your inclusions are probably from trapped super heated air. Leaving the mold open to air cool for a few more seconds will cure that. A little 6" desk top fan blowing across your bullet drop area will speed things up.

Your observation with the bullets loosing their sharp corners must be an optical illusion. That or you have some funky metal contamination I've never heard of.

With straight WW you'll be frosting bullets or very close to it in order to get good fill out. only way around that is to add tin. With pure pb and tin you'll get shiny bullets even with a hot melt. and yes pure pb takes a hotter casting temp to work.

[wallenba]

They are OK to use, mold is too hot. Cool it on a damp sponge between pours.

[blaser.306]

I just keep a small piece of extruded alumanum "i" beam beside my casting furnace and after unloading the newest precious little nuggets into their newborn water bath , I set the open block set on the top of the beam and let it do it's work as a heat sink !

[Calamity Jake]

Yap, lightly frosted is good, means good fill out.




Also have had some "grow" little inclusions on the surface of the bullet. What causes this?

Inclusions usually means trash in the melt, fluxing it real good makes it go away.
After fluxing add cat litter on top, stops oxidation, keeps the heat in and act as a flux when adding more WW.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Yap, lightly frosted is good, means good fill out.

+1.

I like my boolits with a little frosting on them, too. Mmmmmm, tasty!;-)

[Josh Smith]

Thanks folks.

I have a gunshop that may be interested in buying some, and he stressed quality.

I've read where frosting is bad, so I figured I'd ask about it.

Thanks again,

Josh <><

[docone31]

Most gun shop folks I know, do not know what quality is!
They think HardCast with blue lube is quality.
Never mind lead city!
You tell him, quality is what works and works well.

[44man]

Light frost is good but once everything gets too hot the boolit will not fill out as sharp. I have no idea why but GG's will be rounded at the sharp edges. Reducing the heat will then make them perfect again.
Some boolits like the tumble lube designs will get groove damage much faster so lower heat is better. Sometimes even a light frost shows damage. I make them a little more shiny.

[EMC45]

I like what you're driving at 44Man. I have found that in the cooler months I have to run my pot all the way up, but I may have to turn it back down now that we're right at 100 degrees. I was actually thinking too hot too. I had a few good ones at first then they went downhill. I would have to put the mold down to let the sprue cool. It was liquid for a while!

[Josh Smith]

Ok, did away with the cooling rag. Looking for a piece of railroad track I remember having around here. Could be long gone, but this could work well as a heat sink.

As for the frosting: 1) The metal was hot enough, and so was the mold. When I did away with the cooling towel, the boolits got shiny. 2) If I let them air cool, they stay shiny. If I water drop them, they take on a haze, but not nearly as bad as the combination.

I think what it's all boiling down to is that the rapid cooling is crystallizing the metal way too fast to look purty. I might try heat treating the ones I sell, or just let them air cool.

Forgot all about our used bookstore; gonna go there tomorrow to try to find a Lyman Cast Boolit Manual. I've been burned several times lately on the 'net WRT ordering gun stuff - folks end up canceling orders 'cause they're out, etc. Sick of it.

We'll see what this lil' hole-in-the-wall store has. It has literally hundreds of thousands of used books, so they've gotta have something.

Thanks again,

Josh <><

[Bret4207]

The water dropping haze may be unavoidable. And I've seen many, many commercial cast boolits that were far less then shiney. As soon as you size them the shine is gone and the lube conceals a lot of it.

Personally, I like an evenly frosted boolit. Vary your casting tempo to control your mould temp.

[45 2.1]

Frosting, just like welding. Turn the heat up and you can make a decent weld or boolit. The best test to see how good a caster you are is the weight spread in your cast boolits. Try it with a single cavity mold yourself and see what weight spread you get. The best welders i've seen use a lower heat setting than most folks can weld at, same with casters who have little if any weight spread in their boolits...............

[leadeye]

Frosting helps hold LLA on bullets so I you have good fillout and weight consistancy I would not worry about frosting.:grin:

[DLCTEX]

Water dropped boolits can acquire spots from the water if there are minerals in the water. I have used RO water to test this and eliminated black spots this way.

[Bret4207]

Frosting, just like welding. Turn the heat up and you can make a decent weld or boolit. The best test to see how good a caster you are is the weight spread in your cast boolits. Try it with a single cavity mold yourself and see what weight spread you get. The best welders i've seen use a lower heat setting than most folks can weld at, same with casters who have little if any weight spread in their boolits...............

Not trying to start another argument, but without adequate amperage/heat you don;t get enough penetration to make a good weld. Yes, you can turn up the heat and bubblegum a weld together, but you can also turn the amps down create no more than a pretty surface weld that has no strength. A certain amount of heat is required to get a good cast boolit too. IMO the cleaner the mix, the cleaner the mould, the more experience a guy has figuring out the personalities of his moulds, the lower a temp he can cast at, to a point.

I find I have less weight variation with many, not all, moulds when they have a light frost. The frost comes from mould temp. This I control by casting tempo. There are no hard and fast rules in this part of casting as far as I can see and you need to do what your mould wants.

It has been my experience that a hotter mould works better for me. I get better fillout and much lower weight variation than with a cooler mould. Personally, I'm well satisfied with a 25 cal 94 gr boolit with less than .4 gr variation over 50 boolits, with 39 of those within .03 gr. That's a particularly nice mould.

[45 2.1]

Not trying to start another argument No heartburn here, but without adequate amperage/heat you don;t get enough penetration to make a good weld. Yes, you can turn up the heat and bubblegum a weld together, but you can also turn the amps down create no more than a pretty surface weld that has no strength. I knew an old German master mechanic that could make most anyone look like a fool with his knowledge of welding. He could make the most beautifull deep welds when anyone else could do was stick a rod at the same settings. His welds never broke either! A certain amount of heat is required to get a good cast boolit too. IMO the cleaner the mix, the cleaner the mould, the more experience a guy has figuring out the personalities of his moulds, the lower a temp he can cast at, to a point. I believe my tag line applies here. Knowing why something works is everything.

I find I have less weight variation with many, not all, moulds when they have a light frost. The frost comes from mould temp. This I control by casting tempo. There are no hard and fast rules in this part of casting as far as I can see and you need to do what your mould wants. Thats true, as far as you took it.

It has been my experience that a hotter mould works better for me. I get better fillout and much lower weight variation than with a cooler mould. Personally, I'm well satisfied with a 25 cal 94 gr boolit with less than .4 gr variation over 50 boolits, with 39 of those within .03 gr. That's a particularly nice mould. Your weight variation is coming from large temperature swings in the mold cycle. When you find out how to get 0.1 gr. variation or less, we can discuss this on more even terms. That is very possible as others have learned to do it also.

[sundog]

My opinion is that non-frosted boolits might/could be as good as frosted IF you could control the temperature fluctuation of the mould. Controlling temperature fluctuation is more readily accomplished in a range where the boolit naturally frosts and is very possibly a product of the alloy temperature. That's why they just seem to be more consistent when you have a steady rhythm going. Just one more instance of reducing a variable.

This opinion is in ratio to 1/population of the world. How's that for a disclaimer?

[45 2.1]

My opinion is that non-frosted boolits might/could be as good as frosted IF you could control the temperature fluctuation of the mould. Controlling temperature fluctuation is more readily accomplished in a range where the boolit naturally frosts and is very possibly a product of the alloy temperature.

Why do you think so considering the mold has to cool enough to drop a solid boolit?

[Bret4207]

Not trying to start another argument No heartburn here, but without adequate amperage/heat you don;t get enough penetration to make a good weld. Yes, you can turn up the heat and bubblegum a weld together, but you can also turn the amps down create no more than a pretty surface weld that has no strength. I knew an old German master mechanic that could make most anyone look like a fool with his knowledge of welding. He could make the most beautifull deep welds when anyone else could do was stick a rod at the same settings. His welds never broke either! A certain amount of heat is required to get a good cast boolit too. IMO the cleaner the mix, the cleaner the mould, the more experience a guy has figuring out the personalities of his moulds, the lower a temp he can cast at, to a point. I believe my tag line applies here. Knowing why something works is everything.

I find I have less weight variation with many, not all, moulds when they have a light frost. The frost comes from mould temp. This I control by casting tempo. There are no hard and fast rules in this part of casting as far as I can see and you need to do what your mould wants. Thats true, as far as you took it.

It has been my experience that a hotter mould works better for me. I get better fillout and much lower weight variation than with a cooler mould. Personally, I'm well satisfied with a 25 cal 94 gr boolit with less than .4 gr variation over 50 boolits, with 39 of those within .03 gr. That's a particularly nice mould. Your weight variation is coming from large temperature swings in the mold cycle. When you find out how to get 0.1 gr. variation or less, we can discuss this on more even terms. That is very possible as others have learned to do it also.

Sigh......

[sundog]

consistency...

[Dan Carey]

Considering I know the next to nothing about casting quality bullets I must ask this question. All of the commercial cast bullets I've seen look rather shiny. My bullets look rather poor but shoot rather well. How do they keep theirs looking so good?

[Josh Smith]

Polish.

[lead_her_fly]

Frosty bullets come from a hot mold, period. Not a hot sprue, a hot mold. Alloy and mold temp are too close and the cooling is much slower. If you want to have shiny bullets use a colder mold. That means MORE trips to the rag/sponge not less.

Do this; When you notice the first drop of bullets getting frosty, on the next mold full, hold the mold on the rag until almost all of the steam goes away. Not all the steam, but most. Just before opening flip the mold over and touch the sprue plate to the rag too. Make another pour. I can almost guarantee that the next set of bullets will be shinier. Now all you have to do is keep that same Delta T and you are good to go. You will get good fill out and shiny bullets. You have to get several frosty ones first though to see where your mold temp is though.

Since you are using a Lee two cavity mold, Josh, slow down or get a bigger mold. You are putting more heat into the mold than it can dissipate in the short time it doesn't have molten lead in it.

Also, you are comparing your wheel weight bullets to pure lead and an over abundance of tin, as you stated in another thread.

I have been a technician for over 30 years. Do one thing at a time and don't jump to conclusions.

FWIW

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

[runfiverun]

commercial guys do it by using tin and a cooler mold.
since their machines use 8 molds they have plenty of time to cool.
i have cast as low of a temp as 610* but you gotta get the mold up near 300* and keep it there.
corky consistency is like viscosity and consistancy is a constant.
learnt that from the bass and gibson conversation last spring.

[45 2.1]

For all you "hot, frosty" casters, cast a series of boolits and weigh them. Report your weight spread and see if your method produces a small variation.

[EMC45]

Re-smoked my molds this weekend and turned my pot down. Also was more deliberate in my technique. The quality increased tenfold! My bullets were less frosty and also filled out perfectly!

[Bret4207]

Ideally I would love to play with my moulds an temp till I'm casting at the minimum temp needed to get perfect fillout. Maybe some folks have that kind of time and anal tendencies. I don't. But I am anal enough to want as close to perfect fillout and weight variation as I can get. A hot mould gives me that with the least frogging around. If they come out a little on the frosty side, but with minimum weight variation and complete fillout, then I'm happy.

If there really are people out there casting thousands of boolits with zero weight variation then they should just put me on the ignore list as I have nothing I could possibly add to their knowledge base.

[Pat I.]

sigh......

lol..

[cajun shooter]

I will point out something from my casting time. You say that you have the pot on 7 and it works fine. If you are casting from a Lee pot then you can't believe what the dial is set at. I did the same thing when using them and then decided to check with a thermometer. The readings will jump all over the place!! The Lee has a rheostat and not a true thermostat. Your alloy will change all the time casting. I finally saw the Light and bought a RCBS about 9 months ago and have been a much happier camper. If you ladle pour then the Wagge 4757 is the ticket. I have one of those also.

[BruceB]

My casting routine has "cooked down" to running my RCBS pot at MAX temperature, about 870 degrees, ALL the time.

This is after forty-odd years of intensive casting.

Results vary slightly from mould to mould, but I can report this: in 200-grain bullets, weight variation in large batches is usually on the order of 1.5 grains, from lightest to heaviest, even in four-cavity Lyman moulds. With my RCBS 416-350 (single cavity) mould, an extreme spread of one-half grain is normal in the 365-grain bullets (cast from my wheelweight alloy). In an NEI 421-390 two-cavity mould, one grain is the normal extreme spread. Many other moulds will deliver the same sort of minor variation.

I have no doubt that my technique has some effect. In particular, I NEVER let the 22-pound pot get more than 3 pounds "down", which is the size of my ingots. As soon as the pot level drops enough to accept another ingot, one is added.

My bullets are not particularly frosty, but they're not shiny, either. Dimensionally, they're fine.

[sundog]

btw, I routinely cast on the hot side, producing light frost. I am not contradicting myself either from what I said earlier. If you cast for shinier boolits, that's fine, but for them to come out right, you have to be consistent in what you do. I find it easier to produce a run of very consistent weight boolits that are completely filled out with the alloy and mould temps both UP. I do not mind waiting on a sprue to freeze. All depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

[44man]

The melting pot has a huge effect. My Lyman pot has a 60* swing from thermostat turn on to turn off. I have not checked my Lee pots. The best I can do is to center the swing at 750*. 30* each side of my setting.
It is amazing how fast lead heats and cools.

[44man]

The best is to eliminate the thermostat with a voltage control but mine burnt up, 1000 watts was not enough.

[lead_her_fly]

Well, I took your advice, I weighed some of my bullets. They came out of this batch:
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/Sackettwannabe/Boolits/HG5032closeup.jpg
These are about half frosty.

One thing we forgot about is the difference between cavities. These boolits are from a premier mold. It is a four cavity H&G #503. I think everyone would be in agreement with that statement. In my opinion, there are none better. Some as good, none better.

Out of the several hundred I cast, these were randomly selected. I have no idea which cavity they came from. I think your production techniques might mean more if they were from a single cavity mold. Multi-cavity?

At any rate, here are the results:
248.22 AVG
249.60 MAX
246.30 MIN
3.30 ES
0.73 SD

So, here is my question. For mass produced handgun bullets are these OK? Better than most commercially cast ones.

I would think they are fine for MOST carbine rifle use to be honest!

FWIW

[geargnasher]

No offense, but some of those boolits look kinda cruddy, with pockmarks and roughness around the riding bands, like I get when my alloy's dirty. The frosting I get usally is more like a fine patina.

But I can't deny that they probably would all shoot just fine for most purposes.

See what you get for going to the trouble to post pics? :kidding:

Gear