45-70 Seating Problem

[Frank]

When I seat a bullet, the case is acting like an accordian at the last second and bulging at the base. This obviously is shortening the case length which will be detrimental to getting a consistent crimp. Is there a solution to getting a bullet seated without this happening? Or is it something that I have to put up with when working with the 45-70?

[stubshaft]

Have you checked the overall case length of the case to insure that it is not too long?

[Johnch]

I had a problem like that a while back

From memory I fixed it by seating and crimping separately

I think the seater was still pushing the bullet in while trying to crimp

John

[Frank]

My fault. I meant it was bulging at the bullet base, not the base of the case. Cases are all trimmed to length. It looks like a snake ate Oprah. But this time Oprah looks like she had too many jelly beans. I then measured the case length, and it shortened in proportion to the increase in case bulge.

[IcerUSA]

Are you FL sizing the brass ? What diameter is the boolit ? What is the inside of the case after sizing ?

Just a couple things to think about . :)

Keith

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Had a reloading friend with a similar problem with 45acp (maybe 45colt). He had not expanded the cases enough and the mouths were still a little sharp from trimming. When he went to seat the bullet the mouth of the case chewed up the base of the bullet, causing the problem which you have described. Try pulling apart a few of your loads and look at the bases of the bullets. If that is not your problem Johnch had an excellent suggestion about seating and crimping separately. Hope that helps.

[JesterGrin_1]

I think I understand lol. As I get a small buldge at the bottom part of where the bullet is located. This will depend on the size of your BOOLIT. If it is cast or even jacketed. Measure the bullet and measure the mouth of the brass? You may need a larger internal sizer depending on the bullet you wish to seat into the brass. Another way is to not fully size the brass. Back off the sizer 4 to 5 turns and then size and then seat the bullet and I think you will find that this will help a bunch. This will only work with fired unsized brass. As well new brass or already fully sized brass is already small. :)

So I would say keep the brass seperated for what gun you will use them for. And fire form them which means shoot them in the rifle and then as said above back off the full length resizer 4 to 5 turns you have to be the judge on this and then seat the BOOLIT and crimp. By doing this the brass should function fine in the same rifle they were shot from. :)

[Frank]

Stay tuned if you can. Pics will be here shortly. [smilie=2:

[Frank]

Here you go. And also, the bulge is only on one side. I made up 3 other dummies and they do the same. Bullet is a 425 grn grn measured .459".

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=945

[JesterGrin_1]

Yep I knew what you were talking about. :) The bullet is simply that much larger than your sized case. And as in all things the strength of the case will not be the same on all sides and thus may buldge one side more than the other or simply by how it is seated into the case. But either case if you use a fired unsized case and back off your full length size I would say now 5 turns. Size the case and seat the boolit and see what you get. :)

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Yeah, now looking at the pics I would agree with JesterGrin 1 on the cause of the problem. But I am not sure if neck sizing the brass would fix the problem. Try a bullet with small diameter.

[44man]

A bulge on one side is a problem. Something is out of line. No problem if it is even all around.
What press are you using Frank? What dies?
Try leaving the seater die loose in the press once so it self centers. Seat boolits very slowly too. Crimp later after all are seated.
The nose punch might be holding the boolit off center too.

[Frank]

JesterGrin wrote:
Yep I knew what you were talking about. The bullet is simply that much larger than your sized case. And as in all things the strength of the case will not be the same on all sides and thus may buldge one side more than the other or simply by how it is seated into the case. But either case if you use a fired unsized case and back off your full length size I would say now 5 turns. Size the case and seat the boolit and see what you get.

OK, I opened a F/L case up with an expander screwed all the way down. I ran it thru a F/L die like Jestergrin said. Here is the round before (right) and after (left).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=946

Measurement wise, it still bulged, but due to the "fired" case the bulge is camoflaged, or the brass is thicker at that point. The O.D. measures .485" at bullet base while it measures .480" near the mouth.

So I am learning about 45-70. I don't know what I'll do next. Maybe I'll cut the brass and measure the thickness and then I can see what is contributing to the bulge.

44man, the press is a Forster Co-Axial, dies are RCBS F/L, expander and seater, belled with Lee .45 Colt. The dies are free floating always. It's possible that the shell might be misaligned at the bottom, now that you mention it. The Co-Axial press doesn't like 45-70 cases, they barely fit, there's not much "room" to move them around in the little shell plate. Another thing to check. I can just put everything on the rockchucker.

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay here is the skinny lol. You can leave your sizer and bullet seater die as it is. And you wish to have the inside sizer die go in just far enough to barely put a flair on the case mouth so that you can set the boolit into the top of the case so you do not cut the side of the bullet when seating it. I use GC Boolits for my 45-70 sized .460. I set it so the mouth of the case is just wide enough to accept about 1/2 the thickness of the GC into the case so it gives it a good start and I do not overwork the case mouth.


Now onto the full length reziser. As I said I would back it off from full length five turns maybe a tad more lets say 5 1/2 turns. Since you can go down but you can not go up in size unless you fire the brass lol. And then at 5 1/2 turns seat the bullet and see how the boolit feels going into the brass as there should be some resistance. And check for the buldge. If there is no buldge you can still use the same case since it is oversize. Just use a bullet puller of some kind and remove the boolit and then size a bit more of the case till you find where it likes and the boolit does not buldge the case much if at all. But you will also have to make sure the rounds will chamber in the rifle that you intend to use them in as well.

I also use RCBS Dies for my 45-70 :) If you like send me a pm on the subject. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

A bulge on one side is a problem. Something is out of line. No problem if it is even all around.
What press are you using Frank? What dies?
Try leaving the seater die loose in the press once so it self centers. Seat boolits very slowly too. Crimp later after all are seated.
The nose punch might be holding the boolit off center too.

Mine would also be buldged a bit on one side of the case. Not as much as his but then maybe his full length reziser is a bit smaller than mine. But I also thought maybe the Boolit seater die was not in center. So I took a tip from a BPCR guy that used some flat point boolits and just machined the tip of the bullet seater die flat and polished it glass smooth. So that the bullet would have some slide room on the tip to let it align with the case instead of the boolit seater making its own seater. But it would still buldge the case on one side. So I did what I am informing him of now lol.

Still working on it though even on my end. :)Well not working on the case but have yet to see how they shoot with the larger case size. Fun Stuff lol. Just takes time. :)


And maybe like my Marlin .44 Mag Thread I just put wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much information out there lol.

On a side not the same thing did happen on my RCBS Rock Chucker, RCBS JR-2 and my Lyman T-MAG II and my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press lol. And one more RCBS press the RS-2. So there we are lol. And now the top of the line press the Forster Co-Axial Press CRAZY STUFF lol

[JesterGrin_1]

Yeah, now looking at the pics I would agree with JesterGrin 1 on the cause of the problem. But I am not sure if neck sizing the brass would fix the problem. Try a bullet with small diameter.

Well let me help here if I may. You need to size the BOOLIT to the gun so you can not just use a smaller BOOLIT. So at times it takes some time to work out the best way to load a cartridge so that all things work together. The BOOLIT to the gun and the case to BOOLIT fit along with powder and primer and to make sure the complete round will function correctly in any given fire arm.

I know books make it look easy and most of the time it is but if you go outside of the norm and things change then the brain has to kick in to make things work. And then there are a bunch of good people on this forum that have been there and done that and will help the best they can.

So sit back stick around and search and ask questions as the only dumb question is the one not asked. If you look at some of my posts they seem like very dumb questions but again if you do not know ASK. :)

I joined this site at about the same time I started to reload looking for information. And I will have to say without a doubt that I was as dumb as a box of rocks about reloading till I got to this good site. :)

[Rick459]

are you using the LS jaws. something is out of alingment. had the same problem using a turret press which had too much slop in the ram and caused the same results as you are getting.

[44man]

That makes me wonder about the RCBS dies. They could be sizing way too much. The seater is not an inline either, there is no support to the case as the boolit starts and you have to depend on the nose punch. Most do not even screw in straight.
The suggestion to back off the size die is a good one.
I have no problems with my Hornady dies.
I just sized a case, it measures .467" at the mouth and about where the base of a 400 gr boolits goes it is .485".
After expanding, the mouth is .476" and at a boolit base it is still .485".
After seating the mouth is .480" but my boolit is too short for a good measurement for a 400 gr boolit.
I can just barely see the base of a boolit but a longer one would show more, I don't have a 400 or 405 gr one to try.
I gave up RCBS dies long ago because dimensions never matched what I want and over sizing can be very real with them. Then they over expand most straight wall brass. I hate the boolit seater too.
The only dies I would buy now are Hornady and Redding.
RCBS does not offer a competition die set for the 45-70 and the Redding seat die is $68. That leaves only Hornady with a decent seat die at $39 for the whole die set. Those are Midway prices, Midsouth is $1 cheaper but so is shipping.
Forster does not have a Bonanza die set for the 45-70 either.
Hornady is as close as you can get to a competition set for the 45-70.
I have long said dies can make or break your shooting. :Fire:
Many do not like Hornady but they have made the most accurate revolver loads for me, bar none, including for the 45-70 BFR.
One good thing about RCBS! :mrgreen: The die bodies have been used to make many tools for me like a BP compression die, gas check seater, etc. :drinks: I wish I had a few more laying around.
Sometimes you need to bite the boolit! [smilie=1: And toss a die set in the junk box. Never throw them out, they are useful for something.

[45r]

I use lyman dies and don't have any problems with there FL die using a redding 64 thou spacer under it.I take it out to FL size.I had to polish the rough finish inside the lyman FL die quite a bit first.There M die is a most have for cast boolits to me.It holds the boolit straight up with a good bell also.I used permatex liguid metal filler in the round nose stem to make a perfect nose fit for my 300 and 405 rcbs boolits.Put some on and let harden up and run a loaded case with strait run out into it to make form fitted nose.Trim off the filler that flows out the side with a exacto knife.I'd like to get a redding competition seating die some day.

[Frank]

are you using the LS jaws. something is out of alingment. had the same problem using a turret press which had too much slop in the ram and caused the same results as you are getting.

Yes. And they work lousy. You have to open the jaws with your finger. If you let the "bolt" open them up sufficiently, it gets damaged. Their primer catcher is a dog with flees. Primers don't fall thru. But I like changing dies with it, snap in, snap out.

RCBS dies sizes too much - revelation. That's why I measure what I am doing, and I must say, I am AMAZED that 44man's sizer leaves .485" at the base. For me to do that with the RCBS I have to back out 5 turns thanks to Jestergrin. :drinks: I can have the same expansion as 44man, he gets .476", I now have .475". So I have a tighter neck than 44man. :bigsmyl2: With the RCBS I can screw it in deeper and get .476". There is adjustment. I like adjustment.

I have a box of Bear Creek 400 grn that have a bulge at the base. All I used was the Lyman neck die with "S" jaws. So where does it leave a newbie?

Measure everything you do. Don't trust XYZ company dies. They all fail, intentionally or unintentionally.

I was kind of hoping to hear from the "Quigley Down Under" types on this issue. But maybe 45R represented that with his "M" die. So what does a sized case measure with an M die?

[Echo]

Have you tried SHOOTING these rounds? Do they CHAMBER? If you have shot some, what is the result? Bulgy cases aren't that much of a problem in and of themselves - unless they affect accuracy or chambering.
In a way, the bulge is a good thing - it shows that your alloy is strong enough NOT to be sized down by the case when seated. Many of my .357 rounds bulge the same way, even showing the lube grooves through the case, and shoot just fine.

[Frank]

Yes and no. They do chamber if you use the expander. One problem, the biggest problem not mentioned here is what is happening to the case when it bulges. The case is COLLAPSING. Doesn't anybody care? If you have a bulge on your 45-70, measure a case with a caliper. It is shorter now than trim length. How can you have even crimping if your cases are different lengths? Can you rely on the cases collapsing equally?

[montana_charlie]

Frank,
Since you use a crimp, I assume you shoot smokeless. That's why I didn't reply...until you mentioned a desire for some BPCR-type input.

In one post, you said your bullet diameter is .459" At no time did you mention the ID of the case mouth just before seating the bullet.
But, there is obviously enough difference (brass smaller than lead) to leave that bulged shape.
The bulge doesn't hurt a thing, but it needs to be concentric (not off to one side) if it can't be eliminated. A larger expander plug would eliminate it.

You got the suggestion to back out the FL sizer so your neck is not reduced so much. That is similar to using a larger expander...in that the case mouth ends up larger when it comes to bullet seating time.
Just for a comparison in 'the way things look and feel', you might try seating into brass that has not been sized at all after firing. Shooting it in that condition, with smokeless powder, might not give very good performance, but a crimp may help some.

If that .459" bullet is the largest that will chamber in your rifle, it is a good size to stick with...and just work to make the brass conform to that bullet.
The backed out die might do it...or you might want to look at the expanders sold by Buffalo Arms.


the biggest problem not mentioned here is what is happening to the case when it bulges. The case is COLLAPSING. Doesn't anybody care?
Your pictures don't show any collapse...or accordian-ing...just the bulge caused by a big object being forced into a narrow tube.

Fireformed brass will always be shorter than FL resized brass.
Anytime you make a case fatter, it will get shorter.

Play with backing out the die, or using a larger expander, or shooting without sizing at all. Once you find the plan that suits you best, trim your brass to your preferred length when the brass is in THAT condition.

CM

[BillDan]

Frank,
The bulge doesn't hurt a thing, but it needs to be concentric (not off to one side) if it can't be eliminated. A larger expander plug would eliminate it.

Fireformed brass will always be shorter than FL resized brass.
Anytime you make a case fatter, it will get shorter.

Play with backing out the die, or using a larger expander, or shooting without sizing at all. Once you find the plan that suits you best, trim your brass to your preferred length when the brass is in THAT condition.

CM
Spot on, Charley. I've had J bullets do the same thing. The sizing die is taking the case down to minimum spec. Just back it off. You don't need that much neck tension anyway. Non-concentric seating can sometimes be fixed by letting the die and seating plug float by using o-rings under the lock rings.

[JesterGrin_1]

I think that 44Man and myself as well as montana_charlie has given some good information to help out Frank. All Frank has to do now is play with everything to get the results he is looking for. :)

For the short term you do not need to purchase an M-Die or a Larger Expanding Plug just set up the RCBS Dies to do what you need. If you wish you can order a Larger Expanding Plug but to be honest at least for myself it is not needed.

But you may wish to try it just to see. :) . We are forever learning if we are not learning we are going backwards lol. :)

[mpmarty]

Somewhere in there I read that you're using an expander from a 45 pistol set.
belled with Lee .45 Colt. Not good. Largest 45 pistol expanders presume a boolit diameter around .454 and expand the neck to a nominal .453 You need to expand the neck to .457 or .458 for that boolit.

[44man]

Somewhere in there I read that you're using an expander from a 45 pistol set. Not good. Largest 45 pistol expanders presume a boolit diameter around .454 and expand the neck to a nominal .453 You need to expand the neck to .457 or .458 for that boolit.
I overlooked the .45 expander, must be getting blind! :wink:
I measured the inside of my cases and they are .455" which is ideal for a revolver (He IS loading for a revolver) but maybe also for a rifle where he does NOT need that neck tension. Both guns can use different procedures.
When a boolit is seated and expands the brass, brass will shorten the same as a new case shortens when it expands to the chamber.
All of you fellas are right but for the revolver he does not want to over expand, he needs to seat the boolit straight.
A better die set? [smilie=1:

[44man]

Yes. And they work lousy. You have to open the jaws with your finger. If you let the "bolt" open them up sufficiently, it gets damaged. Their primer catcher is a dog with flees. Primers don't fall thru. But I like changing dies with it, snap in, snap out.

RCBS dies sizes too much - revelation. That's why I measure what I am doing, and I must say, I am AMAZED that 44man's sizer leaves .485" at the base. For me to do that with the RCBS I have to back out 5 turns thanks to Jestergrin. :drinks: I can have the same expansion as 44man, he gets .476", I now have .475". So I have a tighter neck than 44man. :bigsmyl2: With the RCBS I can screw it in deeper and get .476". There is adjustment. I like adjustment.

I have a box of Bear Creek 400 grn that have a bulge at the base. All I used was the Lyman neck die with "S" jaws. So where does it leave a newbie?

Measure everything you do. Don't trust XYZ company dies. They all fail, intentionally or unintentionally.

I was kind of hoping to hear from the "Quigley Down Under" types on this issue. But maybe 45R represented that with his "M" die. So what does a sized case measure with an M die?
Frank, remember the revolver is different and so is the lever gun.
For a Quigley gun, you don't even have to size and if you do you need to open the necks more for the soft boolits. I am shooting a .464" boolit from my Browning with a .4593" groove to groove. I actually have to run the expander in a fired case to flare it. The rounds fit the CHAMBER perfect. You do NOT want to do this in a revolver or lever gun.
In a BP single shot, most guys stick boolits in the brass with their fingers, not a seat die. The boolit goes against compressed powder or wads on top of the powder. Then the flare is ironed off but I do not even do that because the flare centers the case mouth.
There are just too many ways to load the 45-70 for all the uses the great caliber has. Die makers have a huge problem with just one type die set. The "M" die is best for BP or a single shot. The lever gun needs some case tension and a crimp, the revolver needs more tension and a crimp.
Many here are thinking rifles only and certain types of rifles. So there are a lot of things said that are proper and correct but might be way off for the revolver.
The caliber is just too versitile and used in too many kinds of guns to come up with difinitive answers. One does NOT fit all! :drinks:

[montana_charlie]

If that .459" bullet is the largest that will chamber in your rifle, it is a good size to stick with...
He IS loading for a revolver
In that case, I will quietly step out of this discussion, and leave it to those qualified to comment...
CM

[Rick459]

Frank,
is the bluge when seating the bullet all the way around the case or just to one side?

[Frank]

Everything I did after Jestergrin's advice works. The RCBS F/L die backed out, the .45 Colt PISTOL die to bell the case mouth to .460". This is standard size for belling 45/70 cases. Why do I use a pistol expander to bell? Think!!!! I'm trying to get good tension with an RCBS expander. I know it's confusing, but I'm using what I've got to get the same result that 44man gets with his Hornady dies. That round you see on the left is exactly what 44man gets with his Hornady dies. He proved that by giving me his measurements. That's also what I get, now.

But I ordered Hornady dies. Why? Because it's easier to set-up. Don't have to back a die out 5 turns, dont' have to use two expanders. The pistol expander was not any problem. A bell is a bell. It swallows the gas check and more. I can use a 45/70 expander to bell a .475.

Rick, the bulge happens all the way round. Evidently my F/L sizer is making them too small. But my Lyman neck sizer also does this. It also does it for different bullets. Thus, everybody who uses these dies must have that problem if they are using the dies per instructions. Thus the snake eating an elephant comment. But the bulge is inferior to no bulge. Because when it bulges, the case shortens and this isn't controlled. Varying case lengths lead to different crimp tensions. All crimp tools rely on equal length cases. Hornady TC, Lee Factory Crimp, seating die crimps, all require equal case lengths to do a consistent crimp round to round.

So we figured out how to get rid of the bulge, and get great neck tension if that's what you're trying to do. [smilie=1:

[JesterGrin_1]

I am glad the forum could be of some help :).

[montana_charlie]

...the .45 Colt PISTOL die to bell the case mouth to .460". This is standard size for belling 45/70 cases. Why do I use a pistol expander to bell?
A bell is a bell. It swallows the gas check and more. I can use a 45/70 expander to bell a .475.
I know I said I was stepping out. But, what I read doesn't fit with what I think...or what I understand the problem to be.

An 'expander' will enlarge the neck of a case to a certain inside diameter. That might be .457", .460", or some other specified diameter. But it does not have a 'range' of expansion capability.

To say that you could use a .45/70 expander to 'bell' a .475 just does not compute.

Since you keep using the term 'bell' instead of 'expand', it leads me to think you ae using a 'flaring tool'...not an expander die.

A flaring tool (like the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die) has a tapered plug which will leave a funnel-like shape in the mouth of a case.
It is designed to work over a range of diameters, but does not leave a cylindrical expanded section in the case neck.

That means the 'neck tension' varies from 'nothing' in the very end of the mouth...to 'considerably heavy' down where the plug is quite a bit below the bullet's diameter.

It's fine if you just need to open a mouth to seat a bullet without shaving lead off of the base corner, but it is worthless for setting up a controlled amount of neck tension.

I don't know what yours looks like, but Lee's tool looks like this...
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1245110338.127=/html/catalog/lubesize.html#CaseExpandingDie

Expanders are single diameter 'straight' plugs, or two-diameter shapes similar to what the Lyman 'M' die uses.
These, at Buffalo Arms, are typical of the type...
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,408.html

CM

[Frank]

That means the 'neck tension' varies from 'nothing' in the very end of the mouth...to 'considerably heavy' down where the plug is quite a bit below the bullet's diameter.

It's fine if you just need to open a mouth to seat a bullet without shaving lead off of the base corner, but it is worthless for setting up a controlled amount of neck tension.



Correct. That's why I used the RCBS expander also to control the tension. One to control, the other to flare. Why do I do that? Because I'm very confused. :veryconfu I don't know how to bell the case without taking out all the tension. So I just use the RCBS expander to go in some, like 1/3, to control the tension, then figure out another way to make a flare. In a .45 Colt that expander would be used to control the neck tension. Soon I'll have the right dies and have more control over what I am doing. Thanks for your help also, by the way. :-D

[44man]

I don't think what Frank is doing is bad, might be very good in fact but I still think there are alignment issues.
I feel if the boolit was going in perfectly straight and the boolit base bulge is even around the brass, they would shoot great.
I would not worry about the case getting shorter when seating, all of them do when brass is expanded and since it will be the same with every round, it will not effect crimp. Besides, a few thousandths means little anyway. We only depend on crimp to hold a boolit under recoil, it has almost no effect on accuracy.
If I had an RCBS die I would play with it. I won't buy any though. [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for your help also, by the way.
If you find anything I said as being useful, you are more than welcome to it.
CM

[44man]

If you find anything I said as being useful, you are more than welcome to it.
CM
You were not wrong about what you were thinking about and did good in my opinion. So did all the other guys and it goes to show the vast amount of different guns chambered for the 45-70.
What a wonderful caliber! :cbpour:

[Frank]

I pulled the bullets on 5 rounds that I had assembled during the discussion above. On every round, the bulge happens where the case is the thinnest.

I checked the seating plug. It fits the bullet top no problem. I put the seating die in the press without the plug, looked from the top and lowered the press handle with a case in it and watched from the top. The case looks in perfect alignment. Plus it has "room" because it's a Co-axial press.

Bullets all measured exactly where they were in the beginning, no sizing down.

And the neck tension? These were some of the toughest rounds I have ever disassembled. But then again, they are also very long, 425 grn 45/70.

So the brass is collapsing at the thinnest section. But as was mentioned before, due to excessive sizing, this would be the case. Backing out the sizing die so the bullet base portion isn't oversized alleviates this problem, as demonstrated by the round on the left.

Check Mate

[JesterGrin_1]

Well Run with it Frank lol. :)

[longranger]

Just as MC has been saying, I have read all of the responses and the answer to your problem to get perfectly expaned 45-70 brass that will accept your bullet with out excessive bulge at the base.You need to junk those expander plugs that came with your die set.First of all their short and do not expand the case to a sufficient depth for a cast bullet, they are for jacketed bullets.RCBS makes a die series called the Cowboy Dies, what makes these dies different from other die sets is the expander plug is for cast lead bullets(there bigger)Buy the custom expander from Buffalo Arms for your die. I use .456-.462 it works perfectly for all of my cast .458 bullets. I also use it for jacketed bullets.The custom expander has a long taper to allow you get the exact tension on the bullet for the length of the bullet.It is as easy as the right expander.

[Frank]

longranger,
Does that mean the expander is .462 at the mouth and .456 at the bottom? Then I could size the case all the way down with the RCBS die, no backing out, then expand all the way down to .456. That way I would have even tension all the way down to the gas check.

The way I'm doing it now, with the F/L die backed out, I don't have hardly any tension at the base/gas check. And based on 44man's numbers, I don't think he has much tension either at the bottom using his Hornady dies. He said his brass there is .480. But he get .5" groups at 50 yards with his revolver, so maybe that's good enough, partial neck sizing with long boolits. Maybe there's no need to have tension all the way to the bullet bottom. But what's wrong with looking for something better? What's wrong with testing another approach?

[JesterGrin_1]

I think Charlie brought up a good point of which I might even try lol. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,408.html

That way you would not need to purchase a complete set of dies. And to be honest if I was going to purchase a complete set it would be the RCBS Cowboy dies for the 45-70 but you still may need the case expander from Buffaloarms.

Just thinking outloud lol. :)

[44man]

I have made all sizes of expanders for the 45-70 that fit an RCBS die body. But I only use them for my BPCR with boolits from .460" to .464". Boolits are dead soft and can not use neck tension.
I don't use them for the revolver.
I still think the RCBS die is sizing too much.
Here is a .459", 420 gr boolit loaded with all Hornady dies----what more would you want? You can also see just some of the stuff I have for the caliber, for any purpose, but the Hornady dies make my revolver loads, period!

[tanstafl10]

how do they shoot, Frank

[Frank]

We'll find out.

I like 44man's round. They look so much better without the bulge.

[JesterGrin_1]

Frank any luck? I just picked up some RCBS Cowboy dies for my 45-70 but as of yet to check them out.

[cajun shooter]

I have one thing that I see is a possible problem. I don't think anyone else has pointed it out. If they have then I'm sorry. I see no sign of you annealing your cases. If you are not then you should. The brass will be softer and expand a lot easier than the rounds I saw pics of. The annealed case will be a lot more uniform in firing also. They will be soft so you can't be rough with them. The RCBS cowboy dies are made for loading cast boolits and will do a good job.

[44man]

I have one thing that I see is a possible problem. I don't think anyone else has pointed it out. If they have then I'm sorry. I see no sign of you annealing your cases. If you are not then you should. The brass will be softer and expand a lot easier than the rounds I saw pics of. The annealed case will be a lot more uniform in firing also. They will be soft so you can't be rough with them. The RCBS cowboy dies are made for loading cast boolits and will do a good job.
Most of Franks boolits are for a revolver! The cowboy dies are for a rifle and softer boolits.
Not a good idea to anneal revolver brass. [smilie=1:

[Frank]

Frank any luck? I just picked up some RCBS Cowboy dies for my 45-70 but as of yet to check them out.

I haven't tried the loads out yet. I did receive Hornady dies also so I can compare.

I do know that after sizing and expanding the Hornady dies are 002" tighter on the neck and they taper good at the bottom.

So it's now a "tension" difference. How much is needed? Looks to me that the Hornady's are doing .006-.007" tension going in to it. Maybe that's good with a .459 boolit with a tough gas check on the end, springs back to just the right amount around the .458 lube grooves. :o Ughh!! Reloading. Blah!!! :)

[44man]

I haven't tried the loads out yet. I did receive Hornady dies also so I can compare.

I do know that after sizing and expanding the Hornady dies are 002" tighter on the neck and they taper good at the bottom.

So it's now a "tension" difference. How much is needed? Looks to me that the Hornady's are doing .006-.007" tension going in to it. Maybe that's good with a .459 boolit with a tough gas check on the end, springs back to just the right amount around the .458 lube grooves. :o Ughh!! Reloading. Blah!!! :)
Relax, just need the boolit to be hard enough. Throw out the measuring tools! :Fire:

[JesterGrin_1]

Well I took the time to measure my RCBS 45-70 Cowboy dies and they are the same as my Standard RCBS 45-70 dies. Both bullet expanders measure .455 but the Standard RCBS Dies the flair part is .463 and the Cowboy goes to .465 woo hoo lol. NOT. So all of the HYPE about the Cowboy dies are just that HYPE. The only thing that is not hype about the Cowboy dies is they look neat but that is where it stops. At least as far as my mic's tell me.

That might be why you can now get the Cowboy dies for the same price as standard RCBS dies. They were $45.95 but at Midway they are $40.95. I know TMI lol.

So I am just going to return the Cowboy Dies. And make due with what I have.

[Frank]

44man says
just need the boolit to be hard enough. Throw out the measuring tools!

So how hard? 22 or 30?