35 remington patched project

[357maximum]

I have been playing with Paper Patch in the 35 remington in a Marlin 336SC (pre-Micro) and am LOVING IT. This was my first "real" as in carried through PP project.

A talented friend made me a push through sizer die that takes removable inserts I can lap to any size I need. I ended up lapping one to size a boolit to .351. I added a two wraps of 18lb green bar printer paper that was being thrown away at work and post sized to .3585. BTW I "SAVED" a whole box from the landfill...hee hee. I used my lanolin/bwax case sizing lube for all boolit sizing. I used both the RCBS 35-200 and the lyman 358315 boolits for this venture. Both shot about the same when I had the height of the patch and the seat depth "just right". Alloy was approximately 30/1 Lead/tin or thereabouts...spiced up recycled foster slugs. I was able to get my 7 shot 100 yard groups down to about an inch or a tad more...with a soft alloy...success as this was my goal.

Here it the final product including 2 7 shot groups....well that is how many shots fired. The right group has seven....the left has only 6...I had a flynch/jerk/anurism on one of them shots and it went a bit wide...by about 2 inches...my fault entirely....I was not having my best concentration day.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch2005.jpg


This is the 358315's all dressed to kill:twisted: I cut all tails with a set of positive arc toenail clippers after the patch dried and I tightened the tail a bit...then sized with my lanolin/bwax case sizing lube.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch2001.jpg

EDIT: These boolits came from a mold that someone once neglected and that I saved from a rubble pile...they look alot mo betta in person...IE..pits from mould are not as bad as they look in pic and it does not seem to hurt a thing.

Closeup of the 358315's as they will go to the woods this November: Remington 9.5 primer/ 38.5 grains of W-748/rem brass...do not know fps...MY DAD HAS HIS CHRONY AT HIS HOUSE OF ALL PLACES :)

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch2004.jpg


I have decided to use the 358315's for PaperPatch with the soft alloy and the 35-200's with my standard 50/50 alloy and greased...the 35-200's really do not need the soft alloy so why go through the effort...for no net gain in performance. I still need some more work on my patching application techniques, but all is "good nuff" for now.

Now to draw blood on a whistle pig or savage tomcat.

[357maximum]

and the rcbs 35-200

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch2003.jpg

[docone31]

Those look picture book.
It seems you know the excitement when My Smelly, and Ishy made serious groups at 100yds!
I almost could not sleep that night.

[John F.]

Great work, and thanks very much for posting! I hope you will keep us up to date as you get to go hunting with these. Very nice!!

John

[TREERAT]

357maximum, please help me! PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF SIZED, BUT NOT PATCHED 358315
I have been trying, unsucessfully, to make a pp mold to .351 diameter.
I have the lyman 358315 mold, these shoot well in my rifle. (.358 win )
my mold drops a .360 bullet, perfect for my rifle!

what I need help with is, what does the 358315 look like after being swaged through a .351 size die? does it remove all the lube grooves? how hard to size down this much, will I ruin my press? ( Lee clasic cast )

[303Guy]

Ooohhh ...... Aaahhh ...... ! Now that is a beautiful sight!:drinks:

My Dad used to hunt in Africa with a 35 Remingtong pump action. He shot Cape Buffalo with it (heart shots - killed two with one shot once! Well, broke the second one's shoulder, requiring a finishing shot). That cartridge has always interested me and now you have made it sing! Oooh hooh!:lovebooli:Fire:

[docone31]

I use the Lee Classic Cast. So far so good. The only issue, I popped the factory toggle. 5$ and they sent me the upgrade. A real steel one!
You will still have some lube grooves. Not much, but some.
Use lots of dish soap for lube! With lube it goes real easy.
If it is too tough, do it in two steps.
Should be good to go.
I size from .313 to .308 in one pass. From there, I wrap twice to .317-.318 and size to .314.
It should go well with one size die.

[TREERAT]

docone31, with the dish soap, do you use it straight, or mix with water for sizing?

[725]

I've been reading alot about paper patching and have been interested. After reading about your efforts, Michael, I'm very interested. I'll be following your reports closely. Way to go.

[357maximum]

357maximum, please help me! PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF SIZED, BUT NOT PATCHED 358315
I have been trying, unsucessfully, to make a pp mold to .351 diameter.
I have the lyman 358315 mold, these shoot well in my rifle. (.358 win )
my mold drops a .360 bullet, perfect for my rifle!

what I need help with is, what does the 358315 look like after being swaged through a .351 size die? does it remove all the lube grooves? how hard to size down this much, will I ruin my press? ( Lee clasic cast )

I started with a prime casting that measured .3598 and sized to .356 in a lee push through, and then push through sized to final size. I did this on a lil ol RCBS partner press so NO it did not take much oomph. I sized in two steps as I was thinking it would make things easier, and possibley more accurate. My homemade lanolin/bw sizing lube makes snot on a doorknob look like glue..it is slippery shtuff...



The sizing almost but not quite wiped out the grooves, and it came out almost dead even with the gas check shank..not quite- the boolit is just a tad proud of the shank.

at any rate hope this helps.


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch21002.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch21001.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch21003.jpg

[TREERAT]

thank you VERY much!!! for the pictures I requested. and for the info about runing through a .356 first. I am going to try it in my .358 win, I will let you know how it works out!

[357maximum]

thank you VERY much!!! for the pictures I requested. and for the info about runing through a .356 first. I am going to try it in my .358 win, I will let you know how it works out!

No problem, and you are very welcome. Please keep us all up to date on that mould eh?

I am going to try some 358315HP's next...Imagine a very soft 358315HP hitting a woodchuck sized critter at around 2K...........8-):twisted::mrgreen:

My 223 is gonna be lonely for awhile[smilie=1:

[docone31]

Yeah, paper patching has changed my entire experience in shooting.
One of the reasons I went back to old cranky rifles is the success in patching I had with my Enfield. Shooting became an enjoyable experience once again. I could actually hit what I aimed at!
You can not size to fit those jacketeds no matter what with simple tools. It was all about sizeing.

[pdawg_shooter]

Sounds like you use the same method I do. Size to bore diameter +.001/.0015, patch with green bar paper, lube, load and shoot. Sure makes it easy to get the performance we want!

[357maximum]

Sounds like you use the same method I do. Size to bore diameter +.001/.0015, patch with green bar paper, lube, load and shoot. Sure makes it easy to get the performance we want!

This was basically my first "at bat" I may not have hit it all the way into the stands....BUT IT SURE HIT THE FENCE REALLY HARD 8-) . I cheated though....I gleamed alot of knowledge from those that have been there, put success stories on one side of the scale and failure on the theother......Pretty easy choice as to which method to try first. I have never read any of the "paper jacket Bibles" but there are alot of people here who have.

The folks that followed Moses across the sea may not have parted it themselves, but I am sure they appreciated it/marvelled at the feat nonetheless.

Thanks to all those that contribute here, much appreciated.:drinks:

[303Guy]

...Imagine a very soft 358315HP hitting a woodchuck sized critter at around 2K...........8-):twisted::mrgreen: I shot one or two turkeys with my 245gr hollow points (unpatched) at below 2k. Oh yes! :Fire:
Large entry wound, boolit size exit! Go figure?:roll:

Thanks for the great pictures and an interesting thread and for sharing your success with us. :drinks:

Keep us posted on the field results!

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

How do you know the "green bar" is 16#? How thick is it?

Welcome to the world of paper patching! I'd be very interested to know the condition those rounds are in after cycling through the action.

Thanks,
MJ

[357maximum]

Mike,

How do you know the "green bar" is 16#? How thick is it?

Welcome to the world of paper patching! I'd be very interested to know the condition those rounds are in after cycling through the action.

Thanks,
MJ

It says so on the big ol box:wink:


EDIT: I told you all wrong.

Box has the following on it:

Main Street
14 7/8 X 11
1/2 Greenbar
1part-18lb
3100 sheets



OOPSIE

I do not think the paper will make you or break you iffin you get the fit right...I may be wrong, been known to happen. :)

Paper is almost .004 according to my ol mic. The rounds are fine...show the lead and a bit more of the rifling touching paper upon extraction. The seating depth and height of the patch was the trickiest thing to figure in this whole deal, but I got it for this iron. Just have to play with both til it is right. If I cut my patch straight I can use the line between the green/white as a guide. Need to get me a guillotine cutter...I am using SWMBO'ed's round crafty "pizza cutter" and a ruler for now...work ok enough.

[303Guy]

That's quite thick paper. If I remember correctly, it is of the same 'strength' as the thinner note pad paper. I'm using as thin as I can find because my prime castings are so big. (Gotta get me that sizer!)

PS I haven't achieved success yet - I'm still playing around but I know it is waiting for me!

[303Guy]

357maximum, could you perhaps show some pics of the rifling marks on the patch?

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks Mike,

Ditto on the guillotine cutter.

MJ

[357maximum]

Here ya go 303:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/paperpatch212.jpg

I had trouble getting it to show in a pic, so I wallered a pencil around in the throat a bit...kinda sorta made it visible.

BTW. I am using a hornady sizer die that is only partial fl sizing, belling/expanding the case mouth (pretty heavily) with a 35mag/357 maximum rcbs "M" type die, and seating with a standard 35R rcbs seater...my hornady seater is not large enough in the floating seater to do the job properly.


I started "bumping" the loads into the warmer area and things are getting a bit tighter groupwise, but I can go no further...she getting "warm" on me.[smilie=1:

I will steal the ol man's chrony the next time I am up that way, but I would imagine I am in the 2200fps area.

[SilverBow]

BTW. I am using a hornady sizer die that is only partial fl sizing, belling/expanding the case mouth (pretty heavily) with a 35mag/357 maximum rcbs "M" type die, and seating with a standard 35R rcbs seater...my hornady seater is not large enough in the floating seater to do the job properly.


Very nicely done. I'm a big fan of the 35 Remington, and those loaded cartridges of yours look like they mean business! I know next to nothing about paper patching, but could you tell me... is there any need to crimp with the PP? In the closeup of the rifle marks it looks like there's a very slight bell on the mouth, although I also see the tell-tale marks of a Lee FCD. If no crimp, does the friction fit of the paper hold it well enough in place for a tube fed lever gun?

I've never loaded the 358315 in a 35 Rem case. I take it with the PP, the crimp groove does not matter and you can seat to whichever depth you need to clear the throat and engage the rifling, so with your seating depth is there some case capacity lost to the bullet's base? Will your 35 Rems feed a normal GC'd 358318 crimped in the groove?

Cheers and congratulations,
Stirling

[357maximum]

Very nicely done. I'm a big fan of the 35 Remington, and those loaded cartridges of yours look like they mean business! I know next to nothing about paper patching, but could you tell me... is there any need to crimp with the PP? In the closeup of the rifle marks it looks like there's still a slight bell on the mouth. If no crimp, does the friction fit of the paper hold it well enough in place for a tube fed lever gun?

Cheers,
Stirling

I am not crimping these there is PLENTY of neck tension so I am not. I do not ever crimp rifle rounds unless some factor makes me (ignition/feeding/recoil/etc). If I can I just get them to feed properly and leave a slight bell..it seems to help accuracy. I have had zero boolit movement in the mag thus far and the loads I shot today were over all but the oldest books a bit.

Do not let lack of knowledge get in your way...I knew nothing until I started reading the great info posted here. I just menataly/theoretically refined it before I dove in. The big factor is getting the proper sizers/sizes and such, after that there ain't alot to it. No witchcraft, no magic or fung shhhhway involved.:mrgreen:


I never let fear/common sense/or ignorance get in my way[smilie=1:


From memory...utt oh a 358318 will cycle but not chamber..it has been awhile, but I never took that project any further....for a reason of some sort or other.

I do not use lee fcd's on my rifles..that mark is from the factory...this is a dummy round only.

[runfiverun]

those marks are left over from the factory load,he/someone fired to get the brass.

[303Guy]

That was a clever trick! Thanks, 357maximum.


I started "bumping" the loads into the warmer area and things are getting a bit tighter groupwise, but I can go no further...she getting "warm" on me. I have the same problem. I am going to drop down to 220gr boolits for that reason if they shoot straight. Actually, I am sizing the boolit to suite my gun and whatever weight they turn out to be will be incidental. Should be around 220gr.

[Southern Son]

I never let fear/common sense/or ignorance get in my way[smilie=1:



I think that this might be my new motto.:mrgreen:

[357maximum]

I think that this might be my new motto.:mrgreen:

Served me well for almost 36 years now.:Fire::drinks::twisted:

The trick is to make the accidents looks intentional:twisted:

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

Off topic but what is the barrel in your avatar? My guess is a .35 cal Shilen. :-D

MJ

[357maximum]

Mike,

Off topic but what is the barrel in your avatar? My guess is a .35 cal Shilen. :-D

MJ

Don the barrel is an old school TC .50

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

Back on topic... I was getting some good groups at 2300+ fps using patched SAECO 352 (.35W) but an occasional flyer would sneak its way into my otherwise great day. Have you had that experience yet? I think rolling the paper on with consistent pressure/tightness might be the answer but I haven't gotten around to testing yet. I still need a guillotine cutter to speed up the patch creating business and a cig roller ala docone31.

MJ

[357maximum]

Mike,

Back on topic... I was getting some good groups at 2300+ fps using patched SAECO 352 (.35W) but an occasional flyer would sneak its way into my otherwise great day. Have you had that experience yet? I think rolling the paper on with consistent pressure/tightness might be the answer but I haven't gotten around to testing yet. I still need a cutter to speed up the patch creating business and a cig roller ala docone31.

MJ

I had a few flyers in my first groups, It was either (or both) my patching technique or my lube application. They went away when I started using the back of a mouse pad to roll em on (tiiiiiiiiight). I also waaay reduced my post sizing lube amount at the same time.

I tried a cheap zigzag cig roller......could not get it to work with a 35 boolit...not enough room in the contraption. I will stick with the mousepad...need to find one in a lighter color that I can mark some reference lines onto.

I am going to see how fast I can push some in another caliber when I have more time...I have got to see this 3K relatively soft alloy patch thing work for myself.


I am going guillotine cutter shopping at weeks end..will report my findings/purchase if there are any to report.

[docone31]

If you open up the slotted hole for the opening roller a little, you might get it to work.
I wonder, if one of us "geniuses" here, might just make one for the 35 and up guys.

[303Guy]

I wonder, if one of us "geniuses" here, might just make one for the 35 and up guys. Now that you mention it .... mmmmm. I am out of work and have just found a small precision machine shop that will do things like this for us (mostly dies and molds and possibly cherries). I have been using my zig-zag without closing it fully so as to control the tension on the paper (and its alignment).

I have been told by my local gunshop that there is a supplier in the US that sells cut strips of 100% cotton paper to the paper patch folks. Anyone know about that?

[TREERAT]

357maximum, and others, walmart sells in its craft section, foam rubber sheats about 8x11. you can get sticky back or plain, and many different colors.

I have been using one for years as a mouse pad, and it also works GREAT to roll on a patch. and they are only about .15 cents

also works great to line the bottom of a cigar box to stand bullets in without any dings to the all important base!

[357maximum]

TreeRat



You are a friggin genious, thank you:bigsmyl2:

I can picture them , i have even seen them in there:oops:...thanks for trippin my memory...SWEET:bigsmyl2:

[357maximum]

UPDATE:

Made a trip to chi-kong mart tonight...I bought some "foamies".($.42/ sheet) ..they work STELLAR..thanks TREERAT:drinks: I also bought a pack of self stick "FOAMIES" (foam sticker sheets) $3.48 for a 6pack...I am gonna mount one on an oak board with a slight ledge to run the nose against, and draw a line for patch alignment.

I also bought a Fiskars 12" deluxe portable trimmer ( slide rule with a blade) to try out.($19.00)...works good, but my green bar will not fit in there without a trimming...the slide rule cutter does cut nice strips though.

[303Guy]

I retrieved some foamy stuff I threw away and cut a usable piece out of it and yes, it does work a treat! Thanks TREERAT.:drinks:

[Zeek]

Mike,

How do you know the "green bar" is 16#? How thick is it?

Welcome to the world of paper patching! I'd be very interested to know the condition those rounds are in after cycling through the action.
Thanks,
MJ
The majority of my PP experience has been with a Marlin 38-55 (Cowboy type, with Ballard rifling). I have never had a single PP'd round get its patch damaged by cycling through the action. I use a custom Mountain Mould 250gr bullet (truncated ogive, with a 1/4" diameter meplat) that is a bit undersized at 0.367", yet it shoots fine in the 0.381"-groove barrel, so long as the patch is laid-on thick enough that all the air is squished out of it when it is sized at 0.381" ~~~> makes for a very hard-surface patch. E.G.: a 2X patch of 24" paper.

The trick, when using proper-diameter boollits like this in the 38-55 (normally, only 0.358" or smaller diameter boolits will chamber) is to use only the new 2.125" long Starline brass, with it waaaay-thin neckwall (~0.0075").

Mic McPherson has "lengthened" the action to function with an LOA of up to 2.73" (see http://www.levergun.com/), and this boolit jams into the rifling at an LOA of 2.65" ~~~> having that extra available "elbow room" (above the usual 2.59" max LOA) is REEEALY handy! Load is 41.5 grains of AA-2495 over a Remington 2 1/2 primer. Using WW+Sn alloy, the rifle likes loads like this that are at least 30 Kpsi, as indicated by QuickLOAD. This load gives a measured MV of ~2100 fps.

BTW, that powder (AA-2495) is yet another neat trick. It reaches peak pressure far further down the barrel than any other powder of that burning rate. I KNOW that sounds contradictory, but you can SEE it on QuickLOAD by playing it against other powders that achieve a similar MV and roughly the same MAP (maximum average pressure). That means that it is a WONDERFUL powder for any boolits, and especially PP boolits, because the slug gets ALL THE WAY into the rifling before getting enough of a kick-in-the-arsenal to obturate it (i.e., it will not swell up early and then have to be sized back down by the throating).
Regards, Zeek