Sweet Gum and Black Gum trees

[Blackwater]

Anyone know what they're good for? There's tons and tons of them around here, and I don't really know a thing they're good for. If they're green, they'll make a fine fire IF you can get them going, but it takes a lot of heat to get them going. It doesn't get really, really cold here in southern Georgia much, but I did once get a big piece of black gum to burn good, and it burned long and steady, finally winding up as a nice pile of white ash in the end the next morning. That's the only good thing I've ever gotten from one of these trees.

You loggers and others, do you know what they're good for?

[Jumptrap]

Anyone know what they're good for? There's tons and tons of them around here, and I don't really know a thing they're good for. If they're green, they'll make a fine fire IF you can get them going, but it takes a lot of heat to get them going. It doesn't get really, really cold here in southern Georgia much, but I did once get a big piece of black gum to burn good, and it burned long and steady, finally winding up as a nice pile of white ash in the end the next morning. That's the only good thing I've ever gotten from one of these trees.

You loggers and others, do you know what they're good for?

Dennis,

Black Gum is hard as a mother in law's heart and I always heard it was good for wagon wheel hubs and other sorts of wooden bearings. Not much call for wooden bearings these days..hehehe! But anywhere you need a hard dense piece of wood, black gum should serve well. There was one that grew in dad's yard and it finally came down about 5 years ago. It was 7 feet across the stump and well over 100 feet tall. It had died and rotted inside. It was twin trunked and the smaller side fell in a wind storm and took out one end of the smaller 2 story house dad has on his place...looked like a giant meat cleaver had went through it. I hated that damned tree with a passion as a boy because I had to rake them damnable gum balls out of the yard.

[Shepherd2]

The book I have says it's one of the more important hardwoods in the southeastern US. It's used mainly for furniture veneer and plywood panels.

[The Nyack Kid]

The book I have says it's one of the more important hardwoods in the southeastern US. It's used mainly for furniture veneer and plywood panels.

my book says the same thing . if you own a fair amount of property with trees growing on it , i would recommend you contact a State Forester and have him come up with a management plan .

[Shepherd2]

The Nyack Kid is giving good advice. Hardwood trees are money in the bank. Here in SE Ohio logging is big business and the State has plenty of programs to help you manage your woodlots and aid you in selling your timber.

When it comes time to cut trees be very, very careful about who you hire and have it in writing what they are going to cut (size) and what they are going to do about repairing damage to your land. Get references and check them out. I even visited a couple sites where my logger had worked to see what I could expect. We had a good experience. I know a few people that wouldn't take the time to look after their own interests and got raped.

[woody1]

http://discoverypub.com/columns/csa/csa2005_12.html
Regards, Woody

[The Nyack Kid]

More good advice
The most inportant aspect of owning wood land is having a Management Plan in place . One has to know what sort of goals that they have in mind for their property . "log trees make money" is too broad and genaral of an idea , it needs to go deeper and be more thought out than that .

be perpared to come up with a plan that will strech for decades or longer .

Do you even want to harvest? perhaps you dont want to change anything in you wood lot . do you want a steady income from the timber? a yearly income ? a large lump of money every 30 years ?maybe you want to save the trees untill retirement before logging? Maybe you arn't intrested in making ,much or any money,you just want a heathy and nice forest to enjoy. Or do you want to be an evil greedy jerk and rape 'er for all its worth ,and then run ?

what is the forest like that you own ? what is your present timber volume? do you have enough timber worth doing anything with ? do you want to have enough timber to log but you dont all you have is land ? what is the growing volume, how much is growing a year ? how much mortality or how much timber is dieing/being lost a year? how will management affect those prevous two questions ?

what trees are growing there ? what trees will grow there ? what are the most desirable trees that will/are growing there ? what trees will/are growing best there ? what trees are worth the most on your land ? what trees will be worth the most , if left to grow or are planted there? what trees are not worth much or anything and never will be worth anything ? remember that there is a differance between the most desirable trees and the trees that are worth the most money.
How do the types of trees that you have fit in to your management plan ? some trees will work better for some management goals than others.

what is the land like ? is it flat or steep dry or wet ? is it mixed ? are there terrain features that need special consideration ? like steep unstable soils . surface water , which has special laws regarding management near them . how about clear definded property lines and/or ownership lines ? power lines or buildings on the property ?? right of ways and access to the timber? do you have neighbors that will raise a stink ?

then there is hiring the right logger or sawmill to do the work .
then there is the work that comes after the logging .

the above is just a very rough outline .it is more complex the larger the wood lot . the complexity of it all is one reason why i decided not to get a masters in foresty and fall timber instead .
it all can seem daunting and over welming , but like boolit casting there are a lot of resoures out there to help . it just a matter of finding them .

[waksupi]

Want to make some real money on it, put it on Ebay. Just a picture of an individual tree. Advertise it as Verneer tree. The Japanese and others will probably put some serious bids on it. Worth a try, anyhow. Set a time limit on how soon it must be cut, and the mess cleaned up. See how it goes. I've heard of walnut trees going for $14,000+ to foriegn buyers in the verneer market, and it may well be worth a shot. If it works out, you may be sitting on a real gold mine.

[The Nyack Kid]

Want to make some real money on it, put it on Ebay. Just a picture of an individual tree. Advertise it as Verneer tree. The Japanese and others will probably put some serious bids on it. Worth a try, anyhow. Set a time limit on how soon it must be cut, and the mess cleaned up. See how it goes. I've heard of walnut trees going for $14,000+ to foriegn buyers in the verneer market, and it may well be worth a shot. If it works out, you may be sitting on a real gold mine.

better add an extra digit on the end of that figure if it is a large black walnut.

[waksupi]

Nyack Kid sez "Maybe you aren't interested in making ,much or any money,you just want a heathy and nice forest to enjoy. Or do you want to be an evil greedy jerk and rape 'er for all its worth ,and then run ?"

This is a statement that all should take notice of. The Kid is a professional logger. And he understands timber and land management. Many seem to think that loggers are rape and run. They aren't. Some of the large corporations don't give a damn about long term, but the guys working the timber do. You can not find a better land manager, than a logger.
Maybe you should hire the Kid, to come down and look the timber over!

[The Nyack Kid]

there are good loggers out there who have a very professional attitude , they take pride in doing a good job (im one) . then there are the fly-by-nites that arn't worth nothing . one way to tell is how much they offer you for the wood (called stumpage) remember that a good logging operation costs more to do that a bad one . if one guy offers this much than anouther guy offers twice that then the first guy , then he may end up stealing half or do such a crappy fast hurry up and getter done job , that its not worth it . also in a lot of places a sawmill will buy the wood and hire the logger to do the work .

there maybe some "baby sitting" to do , know what you want done and stick to it . if you have a forester involed they will do alot of the baby sitting for you .this is why lots of people round here have sawmills ,with good reputaions ,buy the wood and then act as the go between the logger and property owner .if the logger don't perform the mill holds the money agianst them.

[felix]

I have been following this thread with INTEREST in mind. My personal share of a Black Walnut plantation is 10 acres worth, planted with nuts in 1981. The trees are averaging 0.5 minus inch per year. The DBH average is around 10 inches, for the 500 trees remaining. For those on the board not in the know, a tree plantation is planted like row crops such that inter-cropping (between the tree rows) can be applied. The folks taking care of the plantation are allowed to plant non-competing crops for thier own cash harvest every year until the trees are about 5 DBH. At that point Autum/Russian Olive and/or White Pine is planted which will eventually force the trees into straight boles (8 foot pole). Yes, I would like for the Kid to come and look at our arrangement sometime when he desires a trip to Southeast Missouri. ... felix

[The Nyack Kid]

there are also loggers that kind of fit in between the two extremes . these guys are the most numerus . they need the work and the money they want to make as much money as they can so they cut corners, but they also realize that logging is very very dog eat dog competative , they have to do ,at the least, an "acceptable " job if they dont want to starve .
im going to toot my horn alittle . logging has always been what ive wanted to do , i do care about logging and forestry. i cared enough to take time out from logging to get a degree in forestry , so that i could know the "why" behind what i was doing what i did. and then I tried to start up my own outfit along the lines of a forestry/logging company. it ,flopped fast, couse im not a good business man . things got too complex too fast and i lost my @$$ . the idea is there but forestry and logging is a dieing industry out here in the west . everybody wants the perfect looking butifull forest for nothing. im going to stay small and simple . i like simple (for the most part) .

[waksupi]

I have been following this thread with INTEREST in mind. My personal share of a Black Walnut plantation is 10 acres worth, planted with nuts in 1981. The trees are averaging 0.5 minus inch per year. The DBH average is around 10 inches, for the 500 trees remaining. For those on the board not in the know, a tree plantation is planted like row crops such that inter-cropping (between the tree rows) can be applied. The folks taking care of the plantation are allowed to plant non-competing crops for thier own cash harvest every year until the trees are about 5 DBH. At that point Autum/Russian Olive and/or White Pine is planted which will eventually force the trees into straight boles (8 foot pole). Yes, I would like for the Kid to come and look at our arrangement sometime when he desires a trip to Southeast Missouri. ... felix

Felix, don't hope for much in your life time. To get the big bucks, they will need to hit near 30" on the stump. Cutting a 10" would be a total waste, and have no real market value. You planted for the future. Nick may make some big bucks by the time he is your age.

[sundog]

Ric and Kid, my Dad was a professional. Heavy equipment, and his first love - trees. I learned alot from him, especially the fine art of WORK. I learned how to 'eyeball' stuff - grades, weights and measures, lengths, stuff you need to work with. And how to treat a person fairly and make a decent wage. I've buck more brush, split more wood (by hand, by God), and operated more miles of tote road than most people will ever see (or understand) in a lifetime, and nowhere near as much as the the 'ole man', not even close. His was the first chain saw in the industry where I grew up. I was little and remember it like yesterday - behemouth of a McCullogh - yellow. It belched noise and fire! I couldn't pick it up. And it smelled of gas and oil and oak wood chips. Northern Red Oak and White Oak. And his old Studebaker truck. Nice memories. Thanks guys.

Later on it was Stihl saws that handled all the work and a Ford replaced the old Studebaker. I still have a few of the old saws, as well as the one I bought new in early 70s (031). Amazing how much they did and are 'Stihl' around.

There was an outfit from Virginia that went around taking out old Walnut trees for big bucks. The would 'buy' the tree from the owner and when they left you wouldn't know that a tree even stood there. It was furniture and gun stock stuff and whatever, and they took everything, including the roots. Some of those old trees had lived there life and needed to be gone. Win-win. It was interesting to see how NOTHING was wasted. Yea, like everything else, there are professionals and there are rapists. sundog

oh, btw, on the heavy equipment thing. I watched him put in a several acre sump one time with a D8 and he stayed within an inch of grade with only a couple markers. The man had some eyeballs. Motor graders were childs play when putting in a finish grade on a roadbed.

He could drop a eighty foot oak on a spot, even when it leaned the other way. Ever see a tree twist on its base while falling? The man had it down to a science.

Kid, more power to ya. It's hard work. And very rewarding. Ain' nuthin' like the smell of fresh sawdust. I talked too long. sundog

[waksupi]

Corky, those trees twisting on the stump have been the death of many a good men in this area. You don't cut timber on a windy day, is a very good proverb to follow. Another consideration with the soft woods here, is what is called barber chair, in which the tree splits off above the cut, and levers itself off in an unexpected direction. So, you can be sawing away, and have a hundred foot, thirty inch diameter tree snap off above you, and bury you in the dirt. Not much left but a grease spot. As was said before, a damn dangerous business to be in. The mechanical harvesters have made it a lot safer, but there is always need for "boots on the ground", like the Kid.

Kid, ever worked a job, where there was a "whistle punk"?

[AnthonyB]

Corky, I have said before and will say again what a pleasure it was to meet your Dad. He could have interchanged with any of the great-uncles I grew up with, and I'd love the chance to go back and listen to their stories again. I don't believe youth is wasted on the young, but wish I had better sense on what to do with mine. Tony

[Maxthompson]

Fellas,

When we got our little bit of Paradise i thought maybe we should get rid of the pines, evertone was advertising for them. I don't like them and the pine bark beetle was just starting to work here in SC. Most people wouldn't talk to me since I had only seven acres and 200 pines interspersed with oaks and dogwood. The one fellow that did come out gave us a bid and since he was the only one a check. He had three or five years to get the pines and he was to leave the oaks and dogwoods. Within two weeks of the deadline they showed up and if I hadn't showed up, It was almost 200 miles from home at the time, It would have been clear cut.

I called the forestry agent and he came out and said that they had done a lousy job since we had trees standing. It rained while they were here and they left ruts over two foot deep, in my driveway. For three months we had to walk over a quarter mile to get to our cabin.

The end result was that they repaired my driveway, at their leisure and we got to keep our $1500. In my opinion the trees they just pushed over were worth far more than the pines they harvested. I'm still cleaning up after them three years later.

Be sure to check the jobs they have done before and be on site while they're working.

Mike

[Bullshop]

Waksupi
You ever hear of a talki tooter? Its a tooter for the tower whistle when it hangs down off your belt but when you turn it over there is a mercury switch that goes to a radio so you can talk to the yarder.
Way back when I was a wee lad I was setting chockers for an idaho jammer. We were running a christy block and when the carrage hit the stop a bunch of line spooled out before he hit the brake. We were flying four sliders and when I got em all set I tooted two for go. When he wound it up I found I had a foot in a loop and afor I could get it out up I went. Well ya know one toot always means stop but I kept mashing the button and never did hear the tower whistle go off. I could hear sumpin on the radio but didnt know what it was. Anyways I was just a mashin on that buttin and cussin to beat all get out an everything I was cussin was bein cussed on the radio and the whole landing was gettin a big kick out of it.
While I was a danglin upside down the talki tooter was turned over to the radio and I couldnt figure out what in the world was goin on. They let me hang there till everybody had a good laugh. Later on even I thought it was funny. Good thing he didnt wind up that big cadilak engine we had in it. It was set up with that big caddi engine and a three speed tranny and when that thing wound up in third gear it was flat moving some wood.
Another time I got in a foot race with a bear we rousted when a drag went over his den, but thats another story.
BIC/BS

[sundog]

Ric, yea, I've seen'um split up the trunk. A well planned cut and something goes wrong, big time. I had one land on me once, and luckily I was in a little depression and it did no damage to me other than pride. I'm layin' on the ground with tree on top of me. I never told anyone that, and if the old man had ever known..., well it wouldn't of been too pretty. I'm certainly too old for that kind of work now, but I still enjoy crankin' up the saw for some 'farwood'. Lessons learned are lessons that have stayed. It's a hazardous business. When I was in Colorado I got into a lot of Douglas Fir (part time venture) and cut my way into a fair amount of cash. Not for a novice, and had I not had some proper training early on, I would not have attempted it.

Now, about twisting a tree on the stump. I don't know where Dad learned that from, or if it was something he perfected on his own, but it was many more that one ocassion that I saw him do it, and it was a work of art every time. Weight, balance, and timing. And you gotta have a good saw and get it out of the cut at just the right moment. Then, you move away from the movement. Yea, the wind can screw you up. That's why God made block and tackle. Seen my share of that, too. Ole SOB would work my ass into the ground and then stand there and smile. Wish I had a picture.... sundog

[sundog]

Tony, roger, out. sundog

[The Nyack Kid]

[QUOTE= Kid, ever worked a job, where there was a "whistle punk"?[/QUOTE]

i aint that old . whistle punks worked under the old steam donkeys back in the good ol days .
if you mean if i worked around line machines , then yes , i did my time under them and learned my leason .
acutely hardwoods barberchair way worse than a conifer of the same size . the same wood propertys thats make hardwoods barberchair so bad also allow a sawyer to "walk " a tree around 180* on the stump .ive watched it done and it is a sight to behold . it is very very hard to do with a conifer ,becouse of how easy they break off of threir stump.

filix i would love to do that thought you probaly know more about the eastern hardwood forests then i do . getting that balance of good grith and hight and a clean limb free trunk take a great deal of work and know-how . ive got that talant when it comes to the forests of the rocky mountain west, but that is it . i also admire the long trem comitment that it takes to see this started knowing that you may never see this though.
It breaks my heart to see someone ,buy a piece of land ,rape it (the logger always gets blamed in the end) ,then sell the land for way more than what they pay for it and move on to the next patch of trees . that is as bad as some judge in Ohio killing the small (green slip) timber sale program in the entire Forest Service sistem, that destoryed a lot of small loggers.

i got off of the phone with a friend who lives down in polson , ive done some logging ( clean up really ) for him in the past . he got in to the forest clean up business . went out and bought a Fecon (big skidsteer) with a brush grinnding head and some other smallwood actachments . basicly he "parks" out forests that rich folks have snapped up and they want treated . there is a lot of work to be had and it is a good business opportunity and he keeps trying to get me into it . but its not somthing i want to do at this point in my life .doggoneit and if i done what to do it than i aints . if i do not want to do it ,then im not going to like it then too many doors to too many problems will open up . i would rather do some thing i enjoy and not get paid much for it than to do something i hate and be paid big bucks. i hates yard work

[Bullshop]

Sundog
I think what your talking about is called a swing cut. You can swing a tree to the opposite direction of its lean without a wedge using a swing cut. Newtons law of energy in motion at work. You make your undercut then on the down hill side make a cut 90 degre to the undercut 1/3 way in. Then you start you back cut with the bar at a 45 from the undercut on the up hill side. You make a quick cut in to meet the lower cut the continue a parilel cut to the hinge. What will happen is when you cut the up hill side the curf will close on the down hill side and that little 3/8 movement on the stump is several feet at the top. Remember energy in motion, well that tree is now moving and if your holding wood is good as in green and no frozen or dead it will pull to the under cut. I used it often if the wood was good. It saves time and energy over wedging. This works good with younger imature trees that are real springy. For the big leaners we used jacks backed up with wedges. Its amasing to see how much pressure a little brease puts on a stump. I have jacked some big trees, like ten feet across the stump and 200 feet tall. When you red line the gauge on the jack you always back it up with wedges to take the pressure of the jack lines. If a line blows in your face it can take your head off. You can pump up to a good pressure well below the red line on the gauge and stop and watch the gauge. A little bit of a brease in that tall tree will put the pressure over the top. That tree is like a big sail and a 200' lever on that stump.
The two most comon causes of a barber chair are 1- too shallow of an under cut that closes before you are cut close enough to the hinge
and 2- a tree with a heavy lean and you start a back cut from out side and cant cut fast enough. To prevent #1 take a deep enough under cut so the tree is not less than 45 degree angle to the ground before the cut closes.
To prevent #2 on a heavy leaner make your under cut then bore in parilel to the gun cut from both sides if necessiary about 2" back from the gun cut. Then cut from the hinge out. I like to cut both sides first and leave a couple inches of strap at the sapwood to hold. When your ready and all looks good just touch the strap and it will pop and off she will go with no chance of a barber chair. Yup thats right theres two things ol BS knows alot about. Sawin big trees and well you all know the other one.
BIC/BS

[The Nyack Kid]

Fellas,

When we got our little bit of Paradise i thought maybe we should get rid of the pines, evertone was advertising for them. I don't like them and the pine bark beetle was just starting to work here in SC. Most people wouldn't talk to me since I had only seven acres and 200 pines interspersed with oaks and dogwood. The one fellow that did come out gave us a bid and since he was the only one a check. He had three or five years to get the pines and he was to leave the oaks and dogwoods. Within two weeks of the deadline they showed up and if I hadn't showed up, It was almost 200 miles from home at the time, It would have been clear cut.

I called the forestry agent and he came out and said that they had done a lousy job since we had trees standing. It rained while they were here and they left ruts over two foot deep, in my driveway. For three months we had to walk over a quarter mile to get to our cabin.

The end result was that they repaired my driveway, at their leisure and we got to keep our $1500. In my opinion the trees they just pushed over were worth far more than the pines they harvested. I'm still cleaning up after them three years later.

Be sure to check the jobs they have done before and be on site while they're working.

Mike

Mike that is a shame that anyone would have to go though that . there is no exuse for anyone making the sort of mess that you describe . round here guys like that get blackballed and they dont work . unless its for plum creek .then it is ok to make a mess as long as they are moving lots of wood plum creek has clean up crews .

[Blackwater]

I agree with Nyak, Mike. I've known of a number of similar incidents, though, so at least you don't have to feel alone, if that's any consolation at all. "Once burnt, a lesson learnt," though, and I bet you're gonna' be all over the NEXT crew you hire!

I'm over in Ga., and we have similar woodlands. My holdings are down to 56 acres after selling some more land to my son at cut rates. I tried to get him to take it all, so he could manage it for himself, the wife and two sons, but he wouldn't take it all. Wasn't going to charge a dime more! Good kid, but can't add 2 and 2 for beans! He's 35, and needs to manage it for HIS use now. He'd talked of planting it in trees, but now is considering rezoning it and selling off lots. This would render a lot more money, and he'd then use the $$$ to buy some land out close to the river, which would be a lot closer to the type habitat I grew up in. Our little slice of the world has really changed, and there's a new subdivision across the road from the old home place now.

Many of the old farm boys have given up farming in this county in disgust. One old high school classmate of mine was recently denied a rezoning of his farm land. There'd been an identical rezoning very near him, and he figured to sell out here and move to his farm in the neighboring county, where it's a lot more like what he and I grew up knowing as kids. The local college ... ahem, excuse me ... UNIVERSITY ... has come to dominate the whole dang county, and these dumbspits don't know anything about anything much, but you can't tell them that. Liberals to a fault, they know how to spend YOUR money, but of course always have "special rules" for THEIR stuff. Little tyrant wannabes in the making. They just don't know how close they come to getting slapped silly, or how often exactly that occurs. All they know is what they want to do, for THEIR benefit, and while they SAY they "care" about everyone, the evidence of same is strangely absent. Funny how that works, ain't it?

Most of my little 56 acres is in cultivation, but have some pretty mature trees - pine, gum and some oak. I asked because IF (big "if" there) my son gets the rezoning through, and actually proceeds with the development, there'll be many trees needing to be cut, and I just wanted to know what the gum is good for. As I understand it, it's also highly desirable for some sorts of paper making, due to the particular saps and oils in them??? I know just enough about trees to know that I don't know squat. At least I DO know THAT much, though, which CAN be critical. I'm also familiar with the horror stories, too, and one doesn't have to go far or ask many to find such stories.

This whole nation doesn't know, understand or respect the agrarian NEEDS they have, and one of my greatest fears is that corporate entities will eventually take over farming, both of food and our timber resources. If any of you are Alman Brothers or Rolling Stones fans, you're familiar with Chuck Levell, who was a frequent semi-member of those two bands for many years. He's quite a fellow. I've met him playing in a small club with Gov't Mule, and he's a big tree farmer here in Ga., and one of the best, too. He's doing what he can to stand up for smaller tree farmers, and to promote better tree management, but he's rowing upstream I fear, and with a very thin paddle to boot.

Thanks for all the replies, and hope some were spared the horror stories of bad logging as a result of the info posted here.

[Blackwater]

(cont'd)

BTW, have heard and see the twisting thing in felling a tree. Darned amazing stuff to watch, to the uninitiated. Biggest tree felling I've done was when I went to an older friend's one summer, as I was wont to do. He let me hunt his land, and I always dropped by when I could to see if there was anything I could help him do. One day he said, "I sure do have something you can help me do. Get in the truck and let's go!" Now that's NEVER a good sign, especially with this irrascible and kinda' crazy fella', and right away I knew this was going to be an "interesting' day! We drove out to a huge cherry tree that was so big I could barely reach half way around it. I'd say it was about 4' diameter, and this was a single round trunked tree. I don't believe I've seen any cherry's bigger. Top was huge, and pretty tall for a cherry too. Henry was a wiry old rascal, and he directed me, and together we felled that big cherry. When we got her down, I asked if I could have the stumps to cut blanks out of for rifle or shotgun stocks. It was BEAUTIFUL wood, and looked like it ought to have some nice figure to go along with the neat color and texture.

I'd seriously injured my back a couple of years before, and it was all he and I could do together to lift two 2.5 ft. tall sections into the loadbed of his truck. I'd intended to come back and cut the stump, which had been cut about 3.5 ft. from the ground. THAT shold have REALLY been some nice cherry wood! I was eyeing the main trunk, and the first branches where some more figure ought to be, thinking how nice a piece would be for a full length flint lock. Cherry was one of the oft favored woods for those guns, and this one would have some real "meaning" if I cut it myself.

All those neat plans went astray, though, when I got home. Got the two main trunk sections transferred from his loadbed to mine, but when I got home, the inevitable happened when I tried to get them out of my truck. My back caught, and it was more than a week later before I could have used my own chain saw to split out some blanks. By that time, all the pent up pressure in those chunks had checked them so badly that it looked like they were just before turning to sawdust right there before my eyes. Needless to say no blanks got cut from those chunks, and I didn't even bother to go back and check out the stump. I was afraid Henry would have something ELSE I could help him with! The things a man'll do to repay a friend for hunting rights, eh? But then, I've never been very bright when it comes to things like that.

Oh yeah, and another little incident comes to mind. I'd heard all my life that if you tried to split black gum, the axe was liable to bounce back and kill you. Well .... I'd cut some black gum, and you had to hit it just right or the blade'd stick without splitting it, but I'd always split it without too much trouble. Then one day I waited a day or two to try to split a particularly large one I'd cut up for firewood. Knowing I had to set the blade to it just so, I took careful aim, reared way back, and brought it down with nearly all the authority I could muster, and still maintain my accuracy of the strike. You guys know what happened next, of course. The flat back of that axe nearly hit me squarely in the forehead! If I hadn't ducked, it WOULD have, too! That axe head came back as if powered like one of those hard rubber "super balls" the grandkids like to play with, and there was NO changing its direction, either. Live and learn .... that is IF that dang axe head misses you!

I never did get that dang black gum split, and rolled it out by the wooded branch by the house, and left it there to rot. I may not be all that bright sometimes, but I CAN realize when it's time to quit .... sometimes, anyway.

Good to know gum's good for furniture, too. I thought its only use was a limited application to paper making. Thanks.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Just out of interest, here is the makings of that fine walnut stock in about 60 years

Black walnut saplings - the bulbous main root will eventually become the very highly figured blanks. I've now planted 40 just for the timber value
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Walnut_Butt3.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Walnut_Butt.jpg

[The Nyack Kid]

Bad Ass Wallace
you get a thumbs up from me .
If i had the time and money . i would like to get my hot little hands on 1000 acres of prime Willamette Valley bottom land half would be planted with D-fir and the rest would be planted in black walnut . my grand-father on my moms side had a small orchard there long ago . i would set the walnut up on about a 90% 120 year rotation or 90 % of the walnut would be harvested every 120 years the other 10 % would be the best growing stock and that 10 % i would sit on . i like felixes method of planting white pine to help with the purning . i would start havesting the walnut at age 60 . but that would be a limited harvest , starting by taking the worst of the worst out . a heck though im day dreaming , ive got this all planned out but i'll need bout $10,000,000 to start up and about 200 years for the first rotation .only after about the third or fourth rotation would i feel comfertable turning over the operation to a trusted person ,then kick the bucket.

[onceabull]

Nyack Kid: and now we know why there aren't any 1000 acre B.walnut /Doug.fir orchards in the Willamette Valley today..or ever will be again..got to ask though, wasn't the best of the doug.fir not found on the valley floor, --when I was there in the mid '50's, there wasn't any evidence (stumps) that indicated conifers had been taken out...?? Onceabull

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I co-plant walnut with lacewood. At about 6 years thewalnut is fitted with steel guy ropes and turnbuckles to the butt of the lacewood and tightened to induce a twist of between 100-110 deg in the trunk of the walnut over the next 6 years. At maturity EVERY walnut will exhibit fiddleback & figure from the twisted grain and this feature almost doubles the value of the finished product.

Also have almost 1000 African mahogany trees planted. These mature much earlier than walnut and show some very desireable figure for gunstocks & furnature

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20african.htm

[The Nyack Kid]

Ive got some more advice.
Now that you have a management plan , and you have a purchaser for your wood , now you have to harvest the timber[smilie=w:

now you need a harvest plan
your havest plan is a part of your management plan , it is perhaps the most important part of your management plan . havesting tree has the greatest impact both ,short and long term . havesting is also your greatest tool in managing your forest.
Im going to asume that you are in compliance with you local ,state and federal laws regarding timber harvest (there is a $hit load) .
The property lines have to be found and CLEARLY marked . trespass is a very common problem . Having good clearly marked/flagged property lines will save you alot of headache ,believe me .

Communication between you and your logger is critical .the logger must have an understanding of your management plan .most good loggers will walk the forest with you to "go over" the operation he needs to know what trees to take and what trees to leave/protect .the simplest way to do this is to mark(paint or ribbon) which trees to take/leave . you will have to work this out , there are to many factors that come into play for me to list. you could let the logger select the trees to harvest (round hear it called sawyer selection) BUT that means you are putting alot of trust in to your logger , communication and trust are key here. both partys have to know what they are doing, what needs to be done and be flexable about everything.

STAs (speical treatment areas) have to be located and flagged out , these are streams, ponds and boggy areas also steep areas and places with unstable soils . these areas are places that the logging equipment CAN not or SHOULD not operate in .they might beable to get in there with a machine but they will make a mess bigger than the wood removed is worth. if there is wood in the STAs to be harvested , it needs to be hand fell and drug out with a cable system.
you need to let the logger know where (if there are) structures ( houses, out buildings fences and powerlines)are at and if there are danger trees that need spiecal consideration. Heres a tip ,ask your logger what sort of insurance he has BEFORE a tree ends up on your house.

Then you need to have an general idea where the landings and skid trails are going to be . I say general because if you dont know exactly what you are doing ,ie experienced logger/logging engineer ,the landings and skid trails wont be in the best place (30 feet can make a big differance ) ive been there done that "sorry mister landowner but where you wanted to put the landing wasn't big enough for a mountain goat to poop much less put a landing with a five-way sort." Again flexablity , they (should) know what they are doing. Allow for the removal of brush pile trees and skid trail trees . also take in to consideration that there maybe regeneration that needs to be saved .work out a head of time what rehabilitation the logger is responsable for doing .don't surprise him with something sneeky , we dont like surprises . Things like who is responsable for slashing damaged regeneration and whether or not they should take trees damaged in the logging operation . plans need to be in place for when the weather turns fowl and ruts start to be made or when it gets to muddy to work . most loggers will level the ruts out and put in erosion bars (or lay down brush) on the steeper skid trails .

If you have a go between (forester or mill rep)that will take a load off of your shoulders . If you chose to monitor the loggers yourself remember SAFETY FIRST ! logging is dangerous stuff ,a little common sense will go a long way.dont approach the crew while they are working ,if you must approach them be very very careful .come in from a diretion that they can see you , ware bright orange. Remember communication ! there is more, much more ,to logging than this .
Complicated no ? only as complicated as you want it to be.
Remember dispite what "environmentalists" and The Main-stream Media tell you ,loggers are Human too. This is just a start, but a well thought out plan is worth it's weight in ......... wheel weights !

[shooter575]

BAW,Them are some fine looking pieces of wood.Are you involved with with site?I love wood.I like to play around with the wood I fine here in the mid west. I am allways on the lookout for nice stuff that has been scraped from old buildings localy.I do get funny looks going through a scrap pile.One thing I have found as true is the quality of the stuff that is sold now is what the old timers would toss in the firebox to cut the the good stuff.

[drinks]

Dennis,

Black Gum is hard as a mother in law's heart and I always heard it was good for wagon wheel hubs and other sorts of wooden bearings. Not much call for wooden bearings these days..hehehe! But anywhere you need a hard dense piece of wood, black gum should serve well. There was one that grew in dad's yard and it finally came down about 5 years ago. It was 7 feet across the stump and well over 100 feet tall. It had died and rotted inside. It was twin trunked and the smaller side fell in a wind storm and took out one end of the smaller 2 story house dad has on his place...looked like a giant meat cleaver had went through it. I hated that damned tree with a passion as a boy because I had to rake them damnable gum balls out of the yard.
Jumptrap;
You are describing the Sweet Gum, not the socalled black gum
Black Tupelo is sometimes called black gum,it is a very attractive tree that has early spring, small blooms, small fruits animals like and a very dense and non - absorbent wood that is very durable. has a nice figure,is very resistant to cuts and is not very common.
In the fall it is one of the first trees to change color and the colors have a very large range, from pink to deep crimson.
I have a cutting board I made from black tupelo more than 25 years ago and it is still in almost new condition.