Bench Shooting Revolvers

[insanelupus]

Anyone have a picture of the way they "bench" their revolvers for accuracy testing? If so, does it affect the impact point vs. aim point?

I tested my Lyman 429640 load in my Bisley Vaquero the other day. Only method I currently have is propping my forearms on the table and cranking off rounds. However, I have to put a PAST pad or something similar under the butt to keep it from rapping the table. Seems I always shoot low and left with this method.

With a fixed sight revolver, aimpoint vs. impact point kind of become important. I'm just curious how everyone else sights in their revolvers and tests their loads.

[Echo]

The best way to check groups is with a machine rest. Shooting from a rest is correct for checking groups,but not for adjusting sights.

The best way to adjust sights is to grasp the weapon as you would shoot it in 'real life'. A pistol relies more on the entire system of pistol, hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, &cetera, much moreso than a rifle does. Shoot slow fire - shoot a round and put the gun down. Wait a half-minute, re-grasp the gun,and shoot another round. Repeat for five rounds. See where the center of the groups is, and make adjustments.

[ChuckS1]

I'll second Echo's post. When I sight in my M1911 wadgun, I shoot just as if I was in a match and adjust from there. Shooting off a rest will give you a different point of impact.

[44man]

Anyone have a picture of the way they "bench" their revolvers for accuracy testing? If so, does it affect the impact point vs. aim point?

I tested my Lyman 429640 load in my Bisley Vaquero the other day. Only method I currently have is propping my forearms on the table and cranking off rounds. However, I have to put a PAST pad or something similar under the butt to keep it from rapping the table. Seems I always shoot low and left with this method.

With a fixed sight revolver, aimpoint vs. impact point kind of become important. I'm just curious how everyone else sights in their revolvers and tests their loads.
Some revolvers shoot to the same POI from bags and off hand. Others will not.
I rest the end of the barrel on a bag and the butt on another. I can not hold steady any other way.
For a final sight in for deer I shoot Creedmore from the side of my leg with a blast shield. This is as close as you can get to off hand yet still have a solid hold.
There is no way to sight a revolver off hand unless you are so good you can call every shot.
Then we shoot off hand from a ladder stand out to 86 yards which is as far as we can get an open shot from the stand. We hit quart and liter bottles from 20 to 86 yards. Down on the range we are holding 6" groups off hand at 100 yards and hit many cans and bottles. All shots, hit or miss are called for POI. A spotting scope confirms it.
Accuracy testing by resting your wrists puts your failings into it. You must eliminate the human factor.
I can tell you that we out shoot a Ransom Rest every time, I have no faith in the thing at all.
Accuracy testing and sighting in for hunting are 2 different things unless the gun shoots to the same POI off hand as it does from bags.

[lead Foot]

I shoot silhouette and I sighted in from a home made rest. I move to the silhouette range. I shoot the Creedmore and found I was shooting high the vertical was ok though. 44 Man is right there.
Lead foot;:coffee:

[Three44s]

For shooting groups I have better luck using Keith's back rest hold.

Three 44s

[44man]

For shooting groups I have better luck using Keith's back rest hold.

Three 44s
Darn, I just got done typing and the power went out, lost it all. :twisted:
Yes that works too and as long as you can hold steady groups will be good. I have shot my best groups from Creedmore.
The reason is that recoil is the same shot to shot. Handguns are 100% dependent on recoil for POI.
Torque is a nasty word as is letting a revolver "roll" in the hand. Those that have a problem shooting groups are allowing the gun to do what it wants to. Control must be exerted to try and keep recoil the same.
My .44 shoots super groups from bags and is my way to work loads and test boolits, etc. But POI is way off when I shoot off hand so I sight for deer off my leg. It is just more stressful to do a lot of testing from Creedmore, mostly getting up and down off the ground. Too old and fat! :mrgreen:
Now my .475 hits exactly the same off hand as it does from bags and the 45-70 BFR does too. My .45 is close.
It depends on the gun, caliber and the type of recoil. I find sharp recoil will have more difference while a heavy boolit, slower push is more forgiving, even though recoil is very heavy.
The loads you use can change things very fast. The best way is to shoot your gun all ways to see what IT does and how much effect you are causing too.
I overshot three deer when I first got the .475, taking a pile of hair off without breaking the skin. I could have made money shearing sheep! [smilie=1: I found I was relaxing my hold with deer. They do not bother me. I learned to talk to myself for every shot, telling myself to "hold tight" and the problem went away. I have busted many deer since. I was about ready for Magna Porting but got the gun under control.

[jhrosier]

Not as good as a Ransom rest, but I use a sort of combat grip where the off hand cups the gun hand and then rest the off hand on a heavy piece of high density poly foam. I started using the foam in case the grips would hit the bench in recoil as I broke a couple of sets of grips that way.
It is important not to get a finger under the butt bacause it affects the POI and it is VERY painful.
There is very little diference in the way the gun recoils so the POI is pretty close to the same as offhand shooting.
Using a front rest is a little more steady but definately changes the POI.

Jack

[S.R.Custom]

For shooting groups I have better luck using Keith's back rest hold.



Indeed. With your wrists resting on your knees, the gun doesn't know if you're braced or not; it shoots to the same POA as when you shoot off hand.

Also, as a hunter, it makes more sense for me to be proficient in the Keith back hold. Tall grass usually eliminates the possibility for Creedmore type positions, and there's that carrying around a blast-shield thing...

[44man]

Indeed. With your wrists resting on your knees, the gun doesn't know if you're braced or not; it shoots to the same POA as when you shoot off hand.

Also, as a hunter, it makes more sense for me to be proficient in the Keith back hold. Tall grass usually eliminates the possibility for Creedmore type positions, and there's that carrying around a blast-shield thing...
How true that is! Most of my hunting is off hand even from a tree stand.
But Creedmore or the Keith back hold works for initial sight in.
It is rare when you can get a position that is perfect when deer come in. I only have a few spots where I can sit against a tree and use the Keith hold. Deer do not know that they need to be in a certain spot.

[MtGun44]

Keith rested back, wrists between knees. Nealry as solid as on a bench and definitely
no change in POI from field positions or standing. Watch those pants for cyl blast, tho!

Bill

[lead Foot]

There's a bloke at our club caught his pants on fire like that. I have never laughed so much in all my live. Och ouch och ouch hop hop och ouch etc. :lol::lol::lol:
lead foot;

[leadman]

I use a carpeted wood block with a lead shot bag loosely filled with corn cob polishing media.
I do not rest the barrel, but the bottom of the frame in front of the triggerguard. Both elbows rested on carpet on the bench, weak hand cupping the strong hand. I let both hands come up in recoil in control of the gun.
This seems to give me very consistent results that are repeatable.

[Lloyd Smale]

i hold the gun like i would if shooting off hand and rest my wrist on a bag. I dont support the barrel at all. It may not be the absolute steadiest way but it is surprisingly effective and i guess i dont care if i can say my gun shoots one inch 50 yard groups or 3 inch 50 yard groups. As long as you do it the same everytime it gives a good look at load developement. It is also better in that point of aim is the same as off hand and it makes you consentrate on your trigger control more then if your all bagged in and it makes bench shooting into a thing that you actually learn good trigger control instead of developing bad habbits.

[Bret4207]

I have complained mightily here about my eyes failing. As Patrick McManus said, "One day I noticed the world had turned blurry....", so I need all the help I can get. So far the steadiest handgun hold for me has been a forearm rest on a rolled coat or other cushioned item. I've seen much smaller groups that way than resting the gun hands themselves. Of course I still have problems aligning the sights, but that's what works for me. POI is the same as off hand as far as I can tell.

[44man]

I have complained mightily here about my eyes failing. As Patrick McManus said, "One day I noticed the world had turned blurry....", so I need all the help I can get. So far the steadiest handgun hold for me has been a forearm rest on a rolled coat or other cushioned item. I've seen much smaller groups that way than resting the gun hands themselves. Of course I still have problems aligning the sights, but that's what works for me. POI is the same as off hand as far as I can tell.
Yeah, the world did get blurry and I can't find the focus adjustment. Now even the dot in My Ultra Dots look like big stars!
But I will always be a firm believer in finding the most accurate load first. That means a dead solid hold. No load testing is ever done with anything floating. I don't care where they hit on the paper.
Only after that does the gun get sighted in without the bags and practice with hunting positions can be done.
Creedmore is better for me with open sights because it gets them farther from my eyes. Accuracy first no matter what, no guesswork about how steady I was holding.
After that, you will see a vast improvement with your shooting from any position and the boolit will go to the sights, no matter where you had them.
My suggestion is to never, ever work loads in a haphazard way.
I have a friend that bought a new varmint rifle. He spent weeks loading with all sorts of bullets, powder, seating depths, primers, etc, until he had many 100 round boxes ready to test. Then he went to the farm and shot all of them at woodchucks! :lol: The rifle still does not shoot for crap.
I would laugh at you if you wanted to test a primer and shot off hand at 100 yards or as fast as you could pull the trigger at 7 yards! [smilie=1:

[jhrosier]

you guys with vision pproblems might want to check this out:
http://www.eyepalusa.com/eyepal_whose_using.html
I bumped into the fellow selling these at a gun show and he was set up to let me try them before buying.
They really do work!
I don't need them all the time but when I start having blurry sights I put the aperature on my glasses and everything magically clears up.
I have no interest in Eyepal other than as a satisfied customer.

Jack

[MtGun44]

Bret,

Have you tried the Lyman Hawkeye? It works wonders for me and is cheap.

Make a test piece by drilling a ~.040" hole in a piece of some light and opaque material
and taping it to your glasses (or shooting glasses) and give it a try. I was AMAZED.

Every single person over 40 that has tried it WANTS ONE.

Bill

[Bret4207]

I'm still working towards a Merit or something like the Hawkeye or the Eyepal. Truthfully, I'm so busy now I haven't much time for shooting or anything but work.

Retired? Yeah, I'm RE-tired! No rest for me.

[cheese1566]

I have used a MTM pistol perch for many years since it first came out. Works for everything I need in testing loads and accuracy in my auto pistols and revolvers. The guys on my indoor 22LR league loved it to double check their sights.
I suppose not as precise as a Ransom, but not the price either.

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/shoo.html

[mike in co]

see the second pic above.

lug in a rest..NOT THE BBL.
BUTT ON A REST.
do not put the bbl in a rest( just like a rifle,put the stock in a rest not the bbl.

in normal shooting remember what has been said...its a shooting system, gun hands arms elbows.
change any item and poi will move.


when i site in standing two handed, i put a rest at held hight, to stabilize my hold. the gun is in my hands, the rest supporting my hands. this minimizes movement, but allows normal recoil...part of the shooting system.


mike in co

[44man]

I have used a MTM pistol perch for many years since it first came out. Works for everything I need in testing loads and accuracy in my auto pistols and revolvers. The guys on my indoor 22LR league loved it to double check their sights.
I suppose not as precise as a Ransom, but not the price either.

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/shoo.html
Do you know what that thing does when I shoot the .475 off of it?? The whole rest flies over my head! :mrgreen:

[44man]

see the second pic above.

lug in a rest..NOT THE BBL.
BUTT ON A REST.
do not put the bbl in a rest( just like a rifle,put the stock in a rest not the bbl.

in normal shooting remember what has been said...its a shooting system, gun hands arms elbows.
change any item and poi will move.


when i site in standing two handed, i put a rest at held hight, to stabilize my hold. the gun is in my hands, the rest supporting my hands. this minimizes movement, but allows normal recoil...part of the shooting system.


mike in co
True, POI CAN be different but not always. Look at all the groups I post and my avitar. They were all shot with the end of the barrel on a bag. I have tried the frame rest and do not get as good a group with any gun.
The bag under the butt is more important and must be the same tension shot to shot. The muzzle leaves the front bag quick with no effect. The frame is in between and the gun is against the rest longer.
The part that will string shots up and down is the bag under the butt because recoil pounds down into it and changes it's consistency.
Shooting IHMSA from Creedmore has the barrel rested on it's side against the blast shield and it has never effected POI. The butt hand is against the hip and the elbow is in the ground. The elbow is the pivot point. Nothing effects POI! :Fire:
For working loads, the barrel of my guns will be rested near the muzzle and the butt on a bag. For sighting for deer, it will be from Creedmore.

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
In the past I was doing the same as Lloyd ,Wrists on sandbags.
Now got a loan on a Caldwell pistol rest much better results.

[Mk42gunner]

In my younger and more svelte days I liked to test handguns from a modified roll-over prone position. There are a few things you need for this:

1. No snakes in the area.

2. Very short grass, a well tended lawn is nice, a putting green better, bare dirt is best.

3. A flat stomach makes it a whole lot easier.

Since retiring from the Navy and putting on a few more pounds than are absolutely necessary, I like to use a tightly rolled carhart jacket on top off the FMC rest, (on the hood of the explorer). I place the rest just in front of my elbows.

The most important things for an iron sighted gun are a well defined aiming point and clear focus on the front sight.

Sight alignment, sight placement and trigger control.

Robert

[44man]

In my younger and more svelte days I liked to test handguns from a modified roll-over prone position. There are a few things you need for this:

1. No snakes in the area.

2. Very short grass, a well tended lawn is nice, a putting green better, bare dirt is best.

3. A flat stomach makes it a whole lot easier.

Since retiring from the Navy and putting on a few more pounds than are absolutely necessary, I like to use a tightly rolled carhart jacket on top off the FMC rest, (on the hood of the explorer). I place the rest just in front of my elbows.

The most important things for an iron sighted gun are a well defined aiming point and clear focus on the front sight.

Sight alignment, sight placement and trigger control.

Robert
When I was young, shooting IHMSA, I could see the rear sight, front sight and target, all in focus. It was easy to keep an even light gap on the sides of the front sight and hold perfect to 200 meters or farther.
Now the world has dimmed and gone out of focus! Something must be done, it must be global warming! [smilie=1:

[bisley45]

here is how I do it
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/lisa1lacy2/my%20guns/05-09-06001.jpg

and this is the kind of groups I get at 50 yds
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/lisa1lacy2/my%20guns/4-30-06003.jpg

[44man]

here is how I do it
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/lisa1lacy2/my%20guns/05-09-06001.jpg

and this is the kind of groups I get at 50 yds
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/lisa1lacy2/my%20guns/4-30-06003.jpg
That will work with that rest. I don't like to put the frame on a bag.
I am happy to see someone getting good groups too, nicely done. :drinks:

[Rodfac]

44Man & Three44's....hey are you guys related?...just kidding...

I agree with both of your positions...I've found that grip strength, particularly a consistent grip, is essential. Position helps to do that.

For me, Keith's back rest, semi-reclining position works very well, (back against a solid support, sitting, knees drawn up, and the gun extended at arm length between the knees). It gives me the same POI as my offhand, two handed hold, but only if I'm careful to get the same grip strength. It's easy for me to grip harder when in the back rest position. In offhand, I tend to relax the grip if I linger too long on the sight picture...too, that will allow vision to deteriorate if held past about ten seconds. A good point to remember in rapid fire. Ya gotta breathe, and regularly. I found in Hi-Power, that my rapid fire strings were well timed and I shot better scores when I used the, "breathe between every shot" technique, even when shooting the mouse gun.

I've spent time off sand bags but have never mastered the necessary technique to shoot well off them. Yeah, I know, it's a matter of discipline. Too, it's easier for me to load up, head out to the end of the deck, get into position and blaze away at what ever distance is appropriate. It's good to live on a farm...with an understanding wife. "Fire in the hole" is her tip-off that it's gunna get loud for awhile.

My last point concerns the sights. Direct sun, and the direction it's coming from have a big impact on POI. If you don't blacken at least your front sight, you'll find your groups wandering around...and more spread out than perhaps the load justifies. For me, with bright sun from the left, my groups shift to the right, if I haven't blackened the sights. It affects elevation control as well, hence the old hi-power axion, "light up, sights up". It means you need to add elevation to the rear sight if the sun is bright and overhead. The bright sun affects your sight alignment, and the soot from a match, carbide lamp, or candle kills that effect.

Regards, Rodfaf

[44man]

44Man & Three44's....hey are you guys related?...just kidding...

I agree with both of your positions...I've found that grip strength, particularly a consistent grip, is essential. Position helps to do that.

For me, Keith's back rest, semi-reclining position works very well, (back against a solid support, sitting, knees drawn up, and the gun extended at arm length between the knees). It gives me the same POI as my offhand, two handed hold, but only if I'm careful to get the same grip strength. It's easy for me to grip harder when in the back rest position. In offhand, I tend to relax the grip if I linger too long on the sight picture...too, that will allow vision to deteriorate if held past about ten seconds. A good point to remember in rapid fire. Ya gotta breathe, and regularly. I found in Hi-Power, that my rapid fire strings were well timed and I shot better scores when I used the, "breathe between every shot" technique, even when shooting the mouse gun.

I've spent time off sand bags but have never mastered the necessary technique to shoot well off them. Yeah, I know, it's a matter of discipline. Too, it's easier for me to load up, head out to the end of the deck, get into position and blaze away at what ever distance is appropriate. It's good to live on a farm...with an understanding wife. "Fire in the hole" is her tip-off that it's gunna get loud for awhile.

My last point concerns the sights. Direct sun, and the direction it's coming from have a big impact on POI. If you don't blacken at least your front sight, you'll find your groups wandering around...and more spread out than perhaps the load justifies. For me, with bright sun from the left, my groups shift to the right, if I haven't blackened the sights. It affects elevation control as well, hence the old hi-power axion, "light up, sights up". It means you need to add elevation to the rear sight if the sun is bright and overhead. The bright sun affects your sight alignment, and the soot from a match, carbide lamp, or candle kills that effect.

Regards, Rodfaf
How right you are. I made several tests with a scope just mounted to the picnic table, no gun. I sighted dead center on a target at 200 yards in the morning. I looked through the scope every 15 minutes all day without touching it. The cross hairs went up with the sun, very high from center and swung to the right until way off the target. Then they went down, back across the bottom of the target and all they way around and up to the left until at late evening they were back to center.
In other words, the target was never where I seen it except for two times and even the scope would not cure it.
It is NOT the light on the sights but at the target that will throw you off. My cross hairs never moved and the scope was in the shade all day, so the apparent position of the target was changing with the sun. Very easy to shoot where the target isn't.
It puts a new meaning to the expertise of our snipers.

[Bret4207]

How right you are. I made several tests with a scope just mounted to the picnic table, no gun. I sighted dead center on a target at 200 yards in the morning. I looked through the scope every 15 minutes all day without touching it. The cross hairs went up with the sun, very high from center and swung to the right until way off the target. Then they went down, back across the bottom of the target and all they way around and up to the left until at late evening they were back to center.
In other words, the target was never where I seen it except for two times and even the scope would not cure it.
It is NOT the light on the sights but at the target that will throw you off. My cross hairs never moved and the scope was in the shade all day, so the apparent position of the target was changing with the sun. Very easy to shoot where the target isn't.
It puts a new meaning to the expertise of our snipers.

Are you sure it wasn't expansion of the picnic table moving things around?

[44man]

No, not the way I mounted the scope and it was in the shade all day. Next time I do it I will use a tripod and a large grid down range.
It was a calm day so mirage drift was not a big factor, just sun position.
The reason I did the test was from missing at 500 meters with my BPCR. At shoots, you get time for sighters at the start of every relay and there is always a sight change needed as the day goes on. Since we shoot under a roof, sun on the sights was not a problem.
Anyway, it surprised me how much the movement was and that the cross hairs moved in a circle around the target.

[Dale53]

Bisley45;
That is an impressive group. I would be pretty happy with that at 25 yards.

44man;
I have a Leupold spotting scope with crosshairs. At Friendship, IN we had a discussion regarding light and target movement. We were shooting NRA BPCR Silhouette. No one seemed to believe me. We put the scope (20X50mm with crosshairs) on a STURDY tripod in a protected area. We focused on a fixed target and made note of where the crosshairs rested. We set it up in the morning and checked throughout the day. You could watch the target move all around during the day. During the heat of the day, the mirage SERIOUSLY bent the light rays and REALLY moved the target.

I made a lot of believers that day. I had to explain to them that the same phenomenon happened while we were using iron sights but you could see the movement with the scope.

Dale53

[44man]

Bisley45;
That is an impressive group. I would be pretty happy with that at 25 yards.

44man;
I have a Leupold spotting scope with crosshairs. At Friendship, IN we had a discussion regarding light and target movement. We were shooting NRA BPCR Silhouette. No one seemed to believe me. We put the scope (20X50mm with crosshairs) on a STURDY tripod in a protected area. We focused on a fixed target and made note of where the crosshairs rested. We set it up in the morning and checked throughout the day. You could watch the target move all around during the day. During the heat of the day, the mirage SERIOUSLY bent the light rays and REALLY moved the target.

I made a lot of believers that day. I had to explain to them that the same phenomenon happened while we were using iron sights but you could see the movement with the scope.

Dale53
Do you know what we did??? :mrgreen: Now nobody will ever be able to hit a long range target again and they will blame us! :bigsmyl2:
It made me wonder how I was hitting those woodchucks as far as I was. It explains why it takes years to make a spotter good enough for a sniper to make the first shot hit at 1000 yards. He has to learn where the target actually is under all conditions.
Anyway, light changes on an open sight might have a small effect in how you see the light gap but it is much smaller then what the sun and wind does to light rays from the target.
A spotting scope with mil dots, fixed on a target during shooting would allow you to see changes and call out a sight change to the shooter but that does not work with multiple targets or if range changes.

[bisley45]

That will work with that rest. I don't like to put the frame on a bag.
I am happy to see someone getting good groups too, nicely done. :drinks:

thanks do you remember that cylinder on the red hawk you should you opend it up for me

[bisley45]

Bisley45;
That is an impressive group. I would be pretty happy with that at 25 yards.

44man;
I have a Leupold spotting scope with crosshairs. At Friendship, IN we had a discussion regarding light and target movement. We were shooting NRA BPCR Silhouette. No one seemed to believe me. We put the scope (20X50mm with crosshairs) on a STURDY tripod in a protected area. We focused on a fixed target and made note of where the crosshairs rested. We set it up in the morning and checked throughout the day. You could watch the target move all around during the day. During the heat of the day, the mirage SERIOUSLY bent the light rays and REALLY moved the target.

I made a lot of believers that day. I had to explain to them that the same phenomenon happened while we were using iron sights but you could see the movement with the scope.

Dale53

thankes Dale it took me alot of shooting to do that

[44man]

thanks do you remember that cylinder on the red hawk you should you opend it up for me
Sure do! I am so glad it worked out.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_0011.jpg The jacketed group on the larger target was one of my first after getting the gun. I was still shooting factory ammo.

The one on the black bull was shot with a straight WW boolit, 440 gr. LBT. 1,325 fps. I was shooting the gun daily, and an average target for the 50 yd. range was 1.25"

[Dale53]

That is spectacular shooting. About the time that pistol silhouette shooting got popular, my eyes were not working well with open sights. However, I did shoot some Hunter Pistol at my local club. I really enjoyed that. Our local club was/is limited to a maximum of 100 yards, so that has limited my "long" range shooting with the handgun.

However, I did belong to another club for a time that had a 200 yard range. I shot my Super Blackhawk (issue sights) at 200 yards several times and was pleased with the results (I shot mostly from field positions, practicing for "real world hunting"). I was never "guilty" of shooting groups that tight, tho':mrgreen:.

My "thing" is still shooting standing and trying to see how tight I can shoot on NRA pistol targets (I also like silhouette targets and novelty targets on occasion). I no longer compete with anyone except myself and a couple of shooting buddies. But-t-t, I still THOROUGHLY enjoy the experience. I try to get to the range at least twice a week.

Dale53

[44man]

Very nice Dubber, just how great is the .475? :Fire:
Just shows how doing things right for a revolver will change a fellows mind about them. I am so happy with the results shown.
I went down with Bioman yesterday and I took my MOA 7BR to get rid of some old IHMSA loads, too heavy a bullet for deer. We tried to hit some cans and bottles at 100 yards and had no luck, I just could not get a sight setting with old eyes and open sights. Each click is 2" at 100 meters and we had nothing behind the cans to see hits.
But I screwed up my head a little after shooting a bunch of shots at a steel plate, off hand at 50 yards. I kept all in about 1-1/2"! :mrgreen:
Now I can take the revolvers down with Ultra Dots and hit cans and even smaller targets at 100 yards, right off.
Dale, at our age, open sights just suck! [smilie=1:
Scott sighted his .218 Bee at 100 and was getting 1" groups using cast boolits. A few were smaller.

[dubber123]

Dale, I guarantee you would hand me my **** shooting right now. I haven't been shooting that much, and it sure shows. So long to gain proficiency, so quick to lose it.

When I get a new gun, I'm all fascinated and shoot it constantly working up loads.
When I'm happy, I get bored with it, and it doesn't get shot much.

44man, the .475 sure is an awesome caliber. Not so big it won't fit in a "normal" size gun, superbly accurate and efficient. If the recoil falls within ones tolerance range, it sure is hard to beat.