M1917 Enfield Feeding Question

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

:confused:

My "new" M1917 will not let me insert a cartridge in the chamber and then close the bolt over it -- I have to put the cartridge into the magazine, and let the bolt pick it up and chamber it as the bolt closes.

Frustrating situation, as I like to feed my cast boolit cartridges by hand and not have the bullet banged up by having the bolt pick it out of the magazine and bounce it off the front of the magazine on its way to the chamber.

Of all the vintage military rifles I have loaded for, I have only had one other like this -- my M95 Dutch Mannlicher will not allow single cartridge loading either.

Have any of you figured out a good way around this with the M1917?

TIA

Tom

www.vintage-gunlore.com

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I've got 4 17's and the only understanding that I have in reading your question or problem is that when your bolt is to the rearmost position it will not go forward unless the follower is depressed by having a round on/in it. This is the way 17's work. One way around this is not to pull the bolt all the way to the rear and just lay the cartridge on it or simply feed the cartridge into the chamber by hand and close the bolt on it. The problem with doing it that way is that you have to pull the bolt all the way to the rear in order for the ejector to kick the fired casing out of the rifle. Some 17 users have ground off the upper rear part of the follower at an angle so that it never engages the bolt...the bolt doesn't catch on it to start with. The 1903 Springfield and the 03A3 have a magazine cutoff which prevents the bolt from coming all the way to the rear so it can't catch on the follower, but the 17 does not have that feature. If I remember correctly there was somewhere back in time a gizmo/insert that could be placed in the 17 magazine that held the follower depressed a bit to prevent the bolt from catching on it and one could just plop a round in and close the bolt. I don't remember what it was called or who sold it...("Thraister" or something-Thraister?) You might do a search on it. The having the bolt to the rear in 17's and Springfields permitted the insertion of clips and the quick loading of usually five rounds rapidly. If you want to do the grinding option, but want to retain the as-issue condition of the rifle, you might want to pick up a spare follower and grind that one...and swap it in only when you want to single load rounds. Its just a question of popping out the floor plate when you need to do it. Hope that some or any of this helps. LLS

[45nut]

Dayton Traister,

http://www.daytraco.com/

Tru-Feed Kit
Our stainless steel Tru-Feed kit eliminates the problem with using pointed and round nosed ammunition in the P-17 Enfield.

[Jim]

Maybe I'm missin' th' mark, but as I see it, the bolt won't fully close on a chambered rd. Read the first sentence again. I have one o' them 1917 Enfields myself, an Eddystone.
Truly, this is a "cock on closing, push/control feed" action. It is SUPPOSED to control feed but will push feed under adverse conditions(combat). Mine will close on a chambered rd..
I'm not a gunsmith and don't have much to offer in the way of help other than to tell you "it ain't s'posed to be thattaway."

[Dutchman]

:confused:

My "new" M1917 will not let me insert a cartridge in the chamber and then close the bolt over it -- I have to put the cartridge into the magazine, and let the bolt pick it up and chamber it as the bolt closes.


hi Tom

The problem is the extractor is not designed to slip over the rim like that when a cartridge is in the chamber. The design is for a controlled feed from the magazine like most Mausers from 1893-1898 models.

Rifles like the Lee-Enfield with a short pivoting spring-loaded extractor will slide over the rim just fine. The American Krag will also as well as many other rifles. But the Mauser was not designed that way. The 1893 Mauser with the magazine cutoff had a different shape to the extractor that allowed it to spring over the rim easier than post-1893 extractors that are flat along the side. The contact point where the extractor lip hooks the rim has a bevel and radius specific to each model. There have been some shooters who grind more of a bevel on the hook to allow it to slip over the rim easier. I don't particularly care for that kind of solution as it weakens a significantly important part of the functional parts of the rifle and could result in a broken extractor lip or a torn rim just when a dozen zombies come through your windows and doors and there you stand with a useless rifle as a club. I don't find that an acceptable situation.

Single loading versus loading from the magazine will produce different target impact points. I've seen this with the Krag. You might think about that.

And on top of all that, if your Gov't wanted you to have a single shot M1917 they would've left out the magazine:roll:.

Dutch

[Four Fingers of Death]

have a look at the extractor. By forcing the front of it over a rim you are bending the short extension, which is proine to breakage with this sort of treatment. Some guys bevel the front, but you get nothing for nothing. This will weaken an already old extractor.

Paul mauser developed the controlled round feed and it was almost one of the wonders of the world at that stage and has been used on most dangerous game rifles ever since.

[Bret4207]

The extractor can be modified to work. IIRC it's done about the same as a Mauser.

[Three44s]

I am also new to the world of P17 Enfields ...... and like to single feed.

I came to the same conclusion as "Four Fingers" ........ and chose to stuff round into magazine and feed from there.

I would rather nick a slug than change a proven design.

(I also wish I'd "discovered" those P17s much sooner!!!)

Three 44s

[atr]

Plus one for Dutchman and 4Fingers and Bret......
the extractor is not designed for single feed but can be modified
Quoting from an NRA publication
"...action is designed for magazine feed only and bolt will not close readily on cartridge dropped into chamber unless bevel on extractor hook is stoned to a steeper angle"

this is a common modification to Mausers and the Model 1917

truth be told I have not gone this route on any of my Mausers or my 1917 mainly for the reason expressed by 4Fingers and Dutchman.....

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

...thanks for all of the great replies. :drinks:

Jim is correct -- I understand that the magazine follower will keep the bolt from closing when the magazine is empty -- that's not the issue.

I can't close the bolt when I manually insert a cartridge into the chamber ("single loading").

From other responses, I now understand that this is normal -- and disappointing.

I will address this two ways:

1. I will order a Tru-Feed kit from Dayton Traister. This should reduce the "blunt force trauma" of feeding a cast bullet cartridge through the magazine, and

2. I will look into getting -- and modifying -- a spare extractor.

I saw a reference to the Dayton Traister gizmo in a vintage early copy of de Haas' Bolt Action Rifles, but just assumed the company was no longer around -- similar to references to all kinds of neat things in old American Rifleman magazines where the people or companies are long-gone. Just goes to show that you should "assume nothing and question everything..."

Also, if any of you have actually altered a M1917 extractor to allow the bolt to close on a single-loaded cartridge, I would appreaiate some instructions.

Thanks again for all of the great input...

Tom

www.vintage-gunlore.com

"In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is king..."

[JW6108]

Until you modify your extractor, you can push inward (toward the bolt body) on the portion of the extractor that is to the rear of the collar as you are chambering a round. This will cause the part of the extractor that engages the case rim to pull away from the bolt face sufficiently to allow the cartridge to snap under the extractor. My 1917 has been beveled, as has been discussed, but I use this technique now and then in my 98K and Turk Mauser. (It is supposedly an old Wehrmacht trick to increase capacity on the 98K.)

A little awkward, but it works.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I am also new to the world of P17 Enfields ...... and like to single feed.

I came to the same conclusion as "Four Fingers" ........ and chose to stuff round into magazine and feed from there.

I would rather nick a slug than change a proven design.

(I also wish I'd "discovered" those P17s much sooner!!!)

Three 44s

They are like Chinese food though. Shortly after buying one, you feel like another!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Until you modify your extractor, you can push inward (toward the bolt body) on the portion of the extractor that is to the rear of the collar as you are chambering a round. This will cause the part of the extractor that engages the case rim to pull away from the bolt face sufficiently to allow the cartridge to snap under the extractor. My 1917 has been beveled, as has been discussed, but I use this technique now and then in my 98K and Turk Mauser. (It is supposedly an old Wehrmacht trick to increase capacity on the 98K.)

A little awkward, but it works.

Actually that is a good idea, you are bending the long part of the extractor and that would have no ill effect on it. I haven't heard of that, can't wait to try that one out :D

Four Fingers.

[WineMan]

I bought the original GI "gizmo" that allows the rifle to used as "Manual at Arms". It is a slightly curved piece of steel with wings that fits over the top of the follower and a round can be laid on top of it and chambered. It seems to work fine on my E-Stone but there is some brass shavings from the extractor riding over the rim. It has never fail to feed or extract. I use it for Military Silhouette where we get to use a rest and most single load. I found that mine liked to jam occasionally with only one in the magazine.

I got mine at Numrich- Orginal follower depressor:

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=413460&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

I read somewhere that troops use a nickle to hold the follower down during Manual at arms.

Wineman

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

...used your link and have put one on order.

Stay tuned...

Tom
:drinks:

[jonk]

What I do is:

insert the nose of the bullet halfway into the chamber. Snap the body of the cartridge down into the mag well. This will leave the cartridge about 1/3 in the chamber, 2/3 in the mag. Then it will pop up into the extractor just fine and control-feed, solving all issues.

[Jim]

What I do is:

insert the nose of the bullet halfway into the chamber. Snap the body of the cartridge down into the mag well. This will leave the cartridge about 1/3 in the chamber, 2/3 in the mag. Then it will pop up into the extractor just fine and control-feed, solving all issues.

Now, that's what I call American inginuity!

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

I ordered one of the Dayton-Traister Tru-Feed set-ups, but need some help please.

The curved metal plate fit right into the front of my magazine well -- so far, so good.

The problem involved trying to figure out what to do with the two metal strips. I don't see how to secure them.

What am I missing?

TIA

Tom

www.vintage-gunlore.com

[Hardcast416taylor]

My late brother screwed up the extractor on a nice Enfield by trying to force the bolt closed on a hand inserted round by pounding on the bolt handle. After I showed him the correct way and replaced the damaged extractor the rifle shot fine. He was a "bird" Colonel in the Army with a commission in Artillery and missles, and he couldn`t chamber a cartridge the right way???:veryconfuRobert

[NVcurmudgeon]

I got this tip from my dog's relative Snoopy. Snoopy said that his brother Spike carried a 1917 rifle through the Great War, and that every soldier in Spike's division was cautioned to always have a nickel in his pocket. The nickel was inserted into the magazine to hold the follower down for inspection arms. It also did double duty in disassembling the bolt.

"To disassemble bolt, open rifle bolt and engage safety. Close bolt, then elevate bolt as shown while at the same time inserting nickel or other coin between end of cocking piece and bolt sleeve so that coin is trapped between these parts as shown."

"Remove bolt and unscrew percussion assembly as shown."

Excerpts in quotation marks are from the "NRA Illustrated Firearms Assembly Handbook." (Volume One)

[Bob S]

This happens to be a Swede CG-63, but you get the idea:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swedes/CG63followernickel.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Gerry N.]

Over the years, I have had several dozen issue Mausers, half a dozen 03's and 03A3's, a P14, three M1917's. All fed single rounds laid on the follower, or inserted into the chamber, not pressed into the magazine well and closed with no more effort than rounds fed from the magazine.

Why do you suppose all of mine would single feed and so few of youse guys'es do? I have noticed that each and every one I've seen has the front of the extractor hook bevelled. I can't believe that all those rifles over all those years had their extractors bevelled by anyone other than the factory.

The bolt rifles currently in my racks are: Swede M38 (Husq. 1943) Yugo M48, Chilean M1912/61. Rem. 03-A3, M1917 Eddystone, M1917 Remington. Every bloody one has a bevelled extractor. Every one single feeds as smoothly and effortlessly as if it were designed to.

Gerry N.

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

In addition to my current M1917 Enfield, I also have a M1895 Dutch Mannlicher that won't feed single cartridges.

They are out there...

Tom

www.vintage-gunlore.com

[dogbert41]

Found a two groove rifleing Eddystone today that had a bright shiney bore for half of what I've been seeing them at other places lately.

I had him hold it for a day till I can scrounge up some cash. I can't wait to try one of these clubs out!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Pretty much all have a bevel of sorts but usually need more of a bevel to jump over the rim easily.

If you look at the construction of the Mauser style extractors you can see that you are pushing your luck forcing it over the rim as the shortest part of the )usually very old extractor is being bent.

Withthis in mind, I'll feed mine from the magazine thanks. I'm not hunting dangerous game, but a broken extractor is a huge PITA, even at the range.

[PAT303]

Why don't you simply drop a single round on top of the follower,then give the bum of the case a little push so it clicks under the mag rail and below the extractor so when you push the bolt forward the round pops up onto the bolt face engages the extractor and chambers just like Paul Mauser designed it to.I do that with all my rifles and it works a treat. Pat

[Three44s]

I've chosen to leave mine unadultered for the forseeable future. It's not bothering me, I like the design .......

And if someone needs to grind theirs ...... that's their rifle .......


My specimen has been changed enough already before I got it ........ I want it left as is ......


Three 44s

[Major 2]

I have not observed this on my "17 " need to take closer look 234051