Wondersight and the '17 Smith

[Bret4207]

Finally got a moment to wander down to the HF Martin Memorial Ballistics Research Center (aka- the sandpit here on the farm). The Wondersight helps a great deal in sight picture, although I was hitting a bit high. At least now some load development can take place and I'll know it's not just me if I have wild groups. BTW-The 45 BD shoots pretty good abd shows full rifling contact in the shallow S+W grooves. Hope springs eternal in the heart of the 45AR enthusiast!

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting this Smith 45AR sixguns for quite some time now and honestly have not found the rifling to be a problem. The cylinder throats (1917s, 1938 Brazilians, 1950s and 1955) at .455-.456 have been more of a challenge.

I have a Wondersight on one of my 1938 Brazilians and it is far better than the factory "hog waller" sight, but still not like a good factory adjustable sight.

I have good luck with a 200 SWC (cast) bullet at 850 fps in these sixguns. I have one of those 45BD molds, but have not cast with it yet. Some day..some day!

[Bret4207]

Chargar- I've often thought of following George Nontes ( theres a name you haven't seen in a few years!!) lead and alter my '17 Smith and Colt Army Special 32WCF to take the S+W J-frame sight. Neither of these guns is even close to collectors grade and they sure would shoot better. The J frame sight doesn't require quite as much maching as the K frame sight, although I forget the exact difference. Then I would grind the front sight down to the base and slit the base length wise. A blade front sight of any height or width could be pinned in the base. I'll probably never do it, but it's a real workable solution.

[Char-Gar]

Oh yes, I remember George Nonte. His book on pistolsmithing sits by my chair as I key this in. My copy was autographed by Nonte to Lee Jurras who did a chapter. I got it from Lee when he thinned out his library prior to his recent move.

The J frame idea would work well. I don't worry much about the collector's value, it is just the cost as I don't have a mill. But I do have a lathe with a milling attachement and might give it a try one of these days.

There is nothing like a good set of ajustable sights on a good sixgun.

I have one 1931 vintage Smith HE is 44 Special that was worked over by Mico with their front and rear sights, trigger and hammer. Boy is it sweet.

I ran accross it a couple of years ago in Nagel's Gunshop on San Antonio. The collectors ran from it, but I got it for $225.00. What a deal!

[Larry Gibson]

Chargar- I've often thought of following George Nontes ( theres a name you haven't seen in a few years!!) lead and alter my '17 Smith and Colt Army Special 32WCF to take the S+W J-frame sight.

I had the pleasure of meeting George Nonte and discussing reloading with him at the NRA Convention in Portland, Oregon years ago. We also discussed the '17 S&Ws and Colts. I had several of them at the time. I still have one that had a target sight (name escapes at the moment - one that fits a M1911 slide) dovetailed into the top strap. A slot was milled into the front base length wise and a higher blade installed. I happened to have a new 6 1/2" barrell for a M1955 Target so I put it on the '17 and put a M29 ramp sight up front. I call it my M1917/25. It has always shot cast bullets extremely well even with the shallow rifling. A 245 gr Lyman 425490 GC over 7.5 gr Unique runs 989 fps and shoots into 1" at 25 yards. The Lyman 452460 200 gr SWC or the Lee 195 gr SWC over 5 gr BE run 897 fps and also do 1". These bullets are cast of straight WWs. The Keith 255 gr SWC also does well over 6.5 gr Unique. WCC72 ran 814 fps and was good for 2" at 25 yards.

I still have Nonte's book on cartridge conversions and refer to it quite often. I always enjoyed his magazxine articles to.

Larry Gibson

[Scrounger]

I had the pleasure of meeting George Nonte and discussing reloading with him at the NRA Convention in Portland, Oregon years ago. We also discussed the '17 S&Ws and Colts. I had several of them at the time. I still have one that had a target sight (name escapes at the moment - one that fits a M1911 slide) dovetailed into the top strap. A slot was milled into the front base length wise and a higher blade installed. I happened to have a new 6 1/2" barrell for a M1955 Target so I put it on the '17 and put a M29 ramp sight up front. I call it my M1917/25. It has always shot cast bullets extremely well even with the shallow rifling. A 245 gr Lyman 425490 GC over 7.5 gr Unique runs 989 fps and shoots into 1" at 25 yards. The Lyman 452460 200 gr SWC or the Lee 195 gr SWC over 5 gr BE run 897 fps and also do 1". These bullets are cast of straight WWs. The Keith 255 gr SWC also does well over 6.5 gr Unique. WCC72 ran 814 fps and was good for 2" at 25 yards.

I still have Nonte's book on cartridge conversions and refer to it quite often. I always enjoyed his magazxine articles to.

Larry Gibson

Was it MMC?

[Bret4207]

Larry- Don't let too many people find out you're loading to 7.5 Unique in a '17. There's many that would say you're abusing it and about to lose an eye. I'm still at 6.5 Unique and the BD45, hoping to cast some of the 452423 group buy boolits soon. Hopefully they'll be closer to .454/.455 than .452.

[Larry Gibson]

Was it MMC?

It is a Micro. It is not like the small MMCs but looks like the early Ruger's and the Colt Gold Cup rear sights. Bomar comes to mind but that may not be right. One of these days I'll figure out how to post a picture.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry- Don't let too many people find out you're loading to 7.5 Unique in a '17. There's many that would say you're abusing it and about to lose an eye. I'm still at 6.5 Unique and the BD45, hoping to cast some of the 452423 group buy boolits soon. Hopefully they'll be closer to .454/.455 than .452.

Yeh I get all sorts of doom and gloom over that one. Been shooting it for years in numerous S&Ws and Colts. It was listed in Speer's older manuals (before the age of lawyers running everything). I have a couple +P loads I used in the M25s that pushed the Speer 200 HP (FAT bullet) at 1200+ fps without problems but I've no need for it in the M1917/25. I also use the lee SWC cast hard over 7.5 gr of Unique for jack rabbit shooting (thumps the hell out of them). It is my .45 ACP load so I haven't chronographed it in the revolver, it runs 1090 fps out of my Wilson barreled/comp M1911.

I also get lots of doom and gloom because I've no real heartburn with shooting low #'d '03s with cast loads (don't have one, just no heartburn with it). I also don't believe SR mausers "were only designed for 45,000 psi loads". I don't believe the data in reloading manuals are god's gospel "not to be exceded" under any circumstances. And I don't believe that deer and elk have grown kevlar body armor and now require god aweful magnums with "premium" bullets. And I don't believe a 250 gr Keith SWC at 1300 fps out of a 6" .44 magnum won't kill deer or elk any more and I now need a 300+ gr bullet. Yup I do open myself up for lot's of doom and gloom from the nay sayers but I just keep on posting what works vs what I hypothesize about or read else where's on the internet.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Blasphemy Larry! Blasphemy! You gotta have at least a 338 Superwhizbangultrastomper shooting depleted uranium tactical monster masher z boolits at 5678 fps to kill even chipmunk, to say nothing of deer. Where you guys come up with these crazy ideas like shooting deer with 250 gr 44 cal lead boolits at 1100 fps or 180 gr 30 cal boolits at 1900 fps is just beyond me. It can't be done. Ask Craig Boddington.

[Char-Gar]

I have fired thousands of 7.5 Unique/452423 loads in both the ACP and AR case and it is my standard load. This was also Elmer Keiths load.

However, I am on the conservative side and reserve these for my Post WWII Smith and Wessons.

Years ago Skeeter Skelton wrote a piece entitled "Poor Man's Magnum". It was about shooting the heavier 454424 on top of 7.5 Unique. The pistol was a Post Office surplus 1917 Colt.

Later he cracked the cylinder of the pistol with this load and had Bob Sconce on Miniture Machine Company convert it to 44 Special complete with SMith and Wesson adjustable sights. He also wrote this up and got a "twofer" on that pistol.

I once owned that pistol for about an hour. I got it at a gun show in El Paso in the mid 80's and somebody bought it off of me before I got out of the door.

[Larry Gibson]

Blasphemy Larry! Blasphemy! You gotta have at least a 338 Superwhizbangultrastomper shooting depleted uranium tactical monster masher z boolits at 5678 fps to kill even chipmunk, to say nothing of deer. Where you guys come up with these crazy ideas like shooting deer with 250 gr 44 cal lead boolits at 1100 fps or 180 gr 30 cal boolits at 1900 fps is just beyond me. It can't be done. Ask Craig Boddington.

See there, doom and gloom.....Back when I was a young and dumb kid (12), and didn't know it couldn't be done, bright and early one morning I snuck the S&W M&P with 6" barrel out to pot at some squirrels. My Uncle had loaned it to my Mom when we moved out on the ranch for "protection". I'd managed to pot a couple deer with my .22LR and a couple with the M94 my Uncle had loaned us also so I had a little "big game" hunting under my belt. Anyways my Uncle had showed me how to shoot the revolver and had slipped me some extra ammo "for practice". It was a .38 Special of course and the ammo was Peters 158 gr lead RNs.

My Mom didn't like me shooting the revolver without her or my step dad around but she was asleep, my step dad had already left for work and I would be out to check on the cattle, shoot a little and have the revolver cleaned and put back all before she woke up. That was the plan anyway. I rode my horse out to the back forty where there was about 20 acres of cherries. I spotted several deer meandering through the small orchard and figured I knew which trail into the woods they'd take. I slipped off my horse, tied her to a tree and slipped off along another trail through the woods to set up an ambush. I got to my spot about 5 minutes before the deer came along. There was two does in the lead with their four fawns following and big old dry doe bringing up the rear. I was nestled down into some scotch broom and was pretty well oblivious to the deer. I had the M&P cocked and held in both hands as I was sittng. I let the first two does and their fawns walk by. Then as that big doe came abreast I raised the revolver, lined up the front sight in the rear notch aiming just behind the close front leg as the doe stepped foreward. I pulled the trigger and the doe flinched, walked about fifteen or twenty steps and fell over dead. The others milled around until I stood up then they took off.

I was one pretty excited kid. I gutted the doe (I always cared a Barlow pocket knife back then-didn't every kid?) and took her back and hung her in our garage/shed and skinned her. I then cleaned the revolver and put it back. No one asked what I killed it with, guess everyone thought I'd used my .22LR. Anyways I almost got away with it until a couple days later when we were cutting and wrapping the deer for the freezer. My step dad found the .38 slug stuck in the offside shoulder bone. He just stuck it in his pocket and later when we were down at the barn he pulled out a bottle of whiskey (he always had one down there) gave it to me in one hand and the bullet in the other hand and said; "good shot, take a snort." Of course all that was when the deer were weak and unarmored and I didn't know you couldn't kill anything with a .38 Special 158 gr RN let alone a deer.

Sheesh, I'm gonna catch hell from the doom and gloomers over that one!

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Very good, Larry! What was that impact, about 650 fps? ... felix

[Bret4207]

Might as well have thrown a rock at the deer. Signed- Craig Boddington

[MT Gianni]

At the very least you should tell us it was a one time fluke, not to be ever duplicated unless some one had there new wonderschlammer cartridge present. It makes you wonder how we ever got past the blackpowder era to read some of the current writers. Gianni.

[Larry Gibson]

Very good, Larry! What was that impact, about 650 fps? ... felix

Hard to say, I wasn't all that far from the doe - maybe 15-20 yards. The current R-P 158 LRN runs about 820 fps out of my 5" M15 so I'd say maybe 750+/- fps at best. Anybody's guess as I don't know the age of that ammo. That all took place in '59. We had the M&P and the M94 around for another year or so when my uncle took 'em back to trade in on a M70. Shortly after that, a couple days before my 14th birthday, I beat a little 3 point buck (western count - blacktail deer) to death with a Savage single shot 16 ga after I shot him in the ass and then in the face....now there's a story that'd get me trouble with the doom and gloomers! My step dad took me down to Sears on my birth day and bought me a new M94 30-30, I still have it today. I have killed a few more deer with it (pre-body armor) using Lyman 31141HP cast bullet.

Larry Gibson

[Catshooter]

Larry,

If'n you want some excitment, post this thread on GlockTalk. Or hell even The High Road!

Probably be banned within an hour.


Cat