Has anyone tried half patches?

[rayg]

My Japanese rifles all have Metford rifiling which in my experience cast bullets do not shoot well with that rifling.
Just a thought, what if I paper wrap a bullet just on the bearing surface of the bullet leaving the base open and adding a gas check and sizing to the groove dia. and load it to the low velocity loads I normally use, like 10 grs of Unique?
The advanage is less powder then reg.PP powder loads and with my home made gas checks, less cost and nice pleasant shooting.
My thinking is the paper might take to the shallow rounded Metford rifling better then plain lead does.
Has anyone tried low velocity PP loads this way? Ray

[docone31]

I think, paper patched loads need to be thumped. I am not sure how low power loads would do with that barrel.
Haveing patched many, many castings, I wonder the benefits of doing that. I have an hard enough time patching in what I call conventional fashion.
I do not think you will need a gas check with paper. Low loads or not.
Give it a try though. It will be more information for all of us. I can see where Metford Rifleing can be a challenge.

[rayg]

The way I'm thinking is that the base of the bullet and gas check will be exposed. It won't be a full paper wrap over the base. The gas check will help seal the bullet from any gas leakage. Also unlike regular PP bullets I'm hoping the paper would become part of the bullet like a "jacket" and remain on the bullet after being shot.
Maybe I'm way off in my thinking but it's worth a try and the paper just might bite into that Metford rifling better, Ray

[pdawg_shooter]

You do NOT want the paper staying on the bullet. You will have NO accuracy. I short patch some of my 45-70 loads that I use in a lever action so the paper doesn't get tore going through the action. I do cover the base and twist the tail. No GCs needed.

[jonk]

I have limited experience in paper patching but recall my first try.

The jackets were too short. I'm fairly sure they shred off the bullet up on inital combustion.

Going up towards the nose the rifling helps hold them in place.

My understanding anyhow.

[rayg]

I know the PP is not supposed to stay on when firing at full power but wonder if it will come off with such mild loads? Maybe I'll just make some regular PP bullets w/ no checks and a twisted tail and try them with the 10 grs of Unique to see what happens, Ray

[303Guy]

rayg, may I be a devil and suggest you try it? I have done a few 'test tube' trials and I have managed to keep patches on, right into the catch medium.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-055F.jpg

That wasn't the objective of my test but it's what happened. This is what I did - I patched over a lubed, sized and g/c'd boolit. The lube glued the patch on and held it there. Also, tracing paper is tough. I have been working on getting it to come off! It doesn't want to come off at low loads. If you like, I could conduct a few tests for you but range testing might take a bit of time. But 'test tube' test with low loads I can do. Just let me know how you want it done and I'll see what I can do.:drinks:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-040F.jpg

[rayg]

Hey 303Guy I would appreciate that.

If you would, could you try to see if you could keep a patch on while shooting the bullet with a low velocity load with a gas check on the base and if so was it accurate?

2nd, Could you try to see if a regular paper patch on a clean bullet, not lubed, no gas check, twisted tail, would come off at such a low velocity. And if so, was it accurate.

And any other ideas you might think of, thanks Ray.

[303Guy]

OK. I am putting together a few test pieces but a true test can only be done once I get my push through sizer die. I'll first see if I can get them to stay then move on from there. I have onr tracing paper patch stay on intact which came off somewhere in the wet rags along the boolit channel. I don't what I did to that particular one nor why the rifling did not cut through at least partially. I'll look for it and see what I can 'read' from it.

[303Guy]

Right! Preliminary test results.:Fire:

Three boolits patched with semi-indestructable tracing paper. Glued with PVA glue.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-062F.jpg
Top - 245gr 303Guy special torpedo
Middle - Lee 180gr bore rider lubed, sized and g/c'd
Bottom - Full Paper Patch 186gr with g/c

Same ones sized by tapered die (another mold actually).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-063F.jpg
Pre-lubed with castor oil.

Recovered boolits.

303Guy special
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-065F.jpg
Patch came off and was trapped in first layer of rag. Boolit penetration was awesome! Note how the patch got swaged into the boolit. Some of that was from sizing.

Lee 180gr
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-066F.jpg
Patch stayed on boolit for six wet rags! (Crumpled into balls). This is the one of interest.

185gr full paper patch
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-064F.jpg
Patch stayed on for three rags. Did not break but concertina'd off. This one will work.

This is going to be fun! Next step is to load up a few of those Lee's and range test them!

By the way, that torpedo was the most powerful. No doubt the weight of the boolit resulted in more energy release from the tiny Lil'gun charge I used (6gr).

[windrider919]

Note:You posted the above while I was writing a reply on the one before that.

You303guy, Just like FedEx when the message has to get there, I absolutely, positively have to tell you that your paper is too tough and really think you would get better accuracy with paper that comes off right at the muzzle. I found that paper that stayed on more than a few feet did not give accuracy. yet your paper stays on into and thru the bullet trap. We are all experimenting but that wheel was invented a long time ago. Actually, I don't think its your paper so much as that you use glue to toughen/harden the paper. Think sabot not 'different material jacket'. I tried various glues too and found that my group size was 5 times bigger than without or with other binders. The very worst was using rubber cement to hold the patch edge down. With that you could not hit the side of a barn, locked inside. I tried starch, egg white, soap, wax,etc. If you are using the right paper it will mostly stick to itself with plain water. If it does not then it is not the paper that is going to give you good groups. The end result of all my experimenting was to buy $10.00 of 25% rag content paper from the office supply store. A more than lifetime supply. I had fought so long because I wanted to find a substitute, not buy a specialty product. For far too long I spent a lot of time and powder an primers trying every type of paper I could get my hands on. Including tracing paper. The rag paper gave better groups and that is all I needed to know. Don't get too locked in on a particular path if its not leading you where you want to go. Not trying to offend. My opinion and as we all know: Opinions are like A**ho*es, we all have one.

[303Guy]

The end result of all my experimenting was to buy $10.00 of 25% rag content paper from the office supply store.I am having difficulty finding much at all in the shops I have tried. Is there a specific name for 'rag paper'?

Docone31 is having success with notepad paper so I will be trying that. (My main problem at the moment is sizing my prime castings).

But the subject of this particular thread is keeping the patch on and since I was having difficulty getting the patch off, I just thought I would give that line a try and see what happens!

I should say, trying out all these different papers and glues and stuff is fun and revealing. I'm finding out, not just what does not work but why.

[rayg]

Great stuff guys. Thanks 303Guy, great experiments.
The main thing I am looking for is a bullet that works well with the Metford rifling. My thinking is that the paper wrapped bullet fired at a "low" velocity may grip the rounded rifling better then lead and may give some accuracy.
My thought was to try a bullet were the paper stays on after it's fired. I believe this was done in some old black power guns where the velocities were low. Ray

[Digital Dan]

Ray, What works with Metford rifling is soft lead patched in a conventional fashion and a working load of powder, not plinking loads. It is a good rifling pattern for paper patch and lead. In a broader perspective, rifling with radiused grooves have been in use for over a century for target rifles and were particularly prevalent among the front runners of competition back in the late 1800s thru early 1900 time frame. One of the proponents was Harry Pope, another was Billinghurst. They both preferred narrow lands and wide grooves with a radiused form.

I've found no benefit to sizing bullets after they are patched, preferring to do the necessary simple math and size the bullet to proper dimension before the fact in order that the finished product is of proper measure. Glue is for other purposes in my opinion. The bullet design below recently made a 30 shot string of slightly over 30" at 200 yards using a Chase patch....not glued....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3458.jpg

To head off questions on the photo, it is a 2 piece swagged bullet with pure lead base and alloy nose section. It weighs 800 grains and is .495" in the nose section and .511" in the base.

[303Guy]

I believe this was done in some old black power guns ...I thought that too. But just for fun, I shall load up some patches that stay on and compare them to conventional patches (no glue - assuming that those come off properly). It's the 'full paper patch' that I am interested in at the moment. That's the one I can size properly at the moment. I cannot size the prime casting yet - no die.

[windrider919]

well, You could order from one of the big bore, BPCR type suppliers who cater to the PP crowd. Here is a link to Old Buffalos paper: http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,2098.html .

To be honest, rag paper or sometimes called cotton bond and only ocasionally onion skin which is also sometimes used to refer to a tracing type paper, is very hard to find because most manufacturers have dropped it. It is the same high quality paper that people used to type their business letters on prior to copy paper and printers. I got mine from a paper wholesalers clearance/discontinued section. They only had 150 or so cases of it left. I bought 5 reams and a friend bought the other five to make the case. I lost the web address in a computer crash unfortunately, but someone searching could probably find it (or another) without to much trouble. I did think about trying to buy a lot of it and sell it to my fellow shooters at cost but I could not afford it. I said earlier that I spent $10.00 but really I think I actually paid $2.50 a ream which is a 1000 sheets.

[303Guy]

Thanks for the link, windrider919. You know, I hadn't actually thought of asking our local shooters and gunshops. (Haven't been out due to illness but I'm back on my feet now!)

In the meantime, since I didn't get to go shooting today, I played around a bit with paper patches again. I made up a few that are supposed to stay on and I tried one that is supposed to come off quickly and still fit my gun, using tracing paper. This may be of interest to rayg (if they work in the field).

Single wrap tracing paper patch
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-074F.jpg

See the recovered 'confetti' - that's all I found. This was a very light load and the patch disintegrated.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-077F.jpg

There are two nose splits in the patch. One is visible in the pic. There are no impressions on the boolit where the joint or split was. It did bend though!

[303Guy]

rayg, I did not get to test any 'stay-on' patches. I did fire one or two with tracing paper patches and those seemed to make confetti showers just like the note pad paper patches. A Few minutes ago I tested a single wrap tracing paper patch thinking that a single layer would cut through but it didn't. It stayed on! the difference was the powder charge. This evenings one was 6gr of Lil'Gun as opposed to 36gr of H4350. I would suggest that you patch up the conventional way and shoot full house loads. In the meantime, I shall make a few of the same tracing paper patched boolits and shoot them with light charges to see how they perform.

[rayg]

Thanks 303Guy, I'll be interested in seeing how the light charge ones work, Ray

[303Guy]

It's a pleasure. Say, what boolits are you using? You say your load is 10grs Unique. I'll be using H4227 (AR2205 to us). I'll have to figure out the eqivalent. Lil'Gun is an interesting powder. I had an amount of contaminated Lil'Gun I was using for light load tests. That's about used up now.

(I was using some Lil'Gun to fire-lapp a bore and had a slight 'incident'. The fire-lapp bullet jammed in the leade. Pressure built up and I waited for it to release then opened the breach - there was still pressure! Primer flattening showed mild 'pistol level' pressure. The charge was low enough to be completely contained in the chamber. Use 6gr of the stuff behind a 245gr boolit and it gives quite a thump. Load 6gr into the hornet and it is like firing a 22LR. Quite fun!):Fire:

[rayg]

I'm been using a 314299 and 311413 bullet. Both mold size and also beagled larger. I have I-4227 powder I could use to duplicate your loads, Ray

[303Guy]

I'm not formiliar with mold names, sorry, what weights do they cast at? Just so I can try to get close to yours. Thanks.

[RMulhern]

The way I'm thinking is that the base of the bullet and gas check will be exposed. It won't be a full paper wrap over the base. The gas check will help seal the bullet from any gas leakage. Also unlike regular PP bullets I'm hoping the paper would become part of the bullet like a "jacket" and remain on the bullet after being shot.
Maybe I'm way off in my thinking but it's worth a try and the paper just might bite into that Metford rifling better, Ray

:groner::killingpc[smilie=b:

[RMulhern]

Me thinks you guys are snortin bad glue!!

[303Guy]

Me thinks you guys are snortin bad glue!!
Hee hee! No, no. It's the GOOD STUFF!:mrgreen:

Are you paper patching, FPMIII or just shooting them plain? I have had good indications with plain smooth sided boolits but the paper patching is showing promise of real good performance. (Or perhaps you know something we don't?):roll: Are you shooting a Medford rifled barrel? (I've never even seen one. But thinking of it now, my Dads Lee Enfield sporter was fitted with a WWII machine gun barrel! It got rust damaged so I replaced it).
:drinks:

[rayg]

The bullets are 165gr and 200gr, Ray

[jonk]

30" 30 shot group at 200 yards? That sounds pretty miserable to me.

[303Guy]

It was a typo, I think. He meant to say 30" 3 shot group.:mrgreen: I mean 3" 30 shot group!:wink:

Some of my test loads were doing the 30" inch thing. Funny there was no sign of boolit yaw. But then I did get the loads mixed so there might have been two or three groups superimposed but I just don't know. I have to start again. One of my tests was not mixed and the result was totally poor. Another was not mixed and shows good promise!

I happen to have some 200gr boolits so I'll do your test with those, rayg. I have some 209gr which I will do my test with. Seeing 357maximum's results with his 35 Remington and his great pics, I will attempt to duplicate his patching (and with a bit of luck, his results!):roll:

[303Guy]

I was kindly sent some info by an honourable member. :drinks:
Having a look at it I found the half patches! The patch was allowed to roll over whichever first driving band was chosen and into the lube groove so as prevent peeling back. The patch did cover the boolit base as per normal and the gas check was omitted.

[rayg]

Just a guess but I think 10grs of Unique would probably be equal to about 16-17 grs of 4227 as far as velocity goes. Ray

[303Guy]

I just tried 15gr 4227 equiv behind a 180gr patched boolit with cotton wool fill and it did not even start to fill out the primer! I am assuming then that your 10gr Unique load is quite low pressure? I still wouldn't want to be at the recieving end of it!:mrgreen: Are they specifically subsonic or just a suitable light load?

[rayg]

The 10 grs of unique is just a nice light load that in my Enfield is quite accurate at 100 yrds. I assuming the 15 grs of 4227 might do okay. Did the paper come off? Ray

[longbow]

I normally load 18 to 22 grs. of IMR4227 under a Lyman 314299 (200 gr.) boolit with gas check and get good results.

A PP boolit of same weight should do fine.

[303Guy]

Did the paper come off?You know, I don't remember! I wonder what planet I was on when I did this!:roll:

Thanks for the input longbow. Much appreciated. The only that stopped me from trying a load like that was that I wanted the boolit to stop this side of the 22'nd centuary! When they get through all the damp rags and into the wet sand pot, they tend to loose a lot of their 'evidence'.[smilie=1:

I must tell you, rayg, you got me to thinking, I have this old project Lee Enfield that I was going to rebore to a 375/303 wildcat but that won't be happening for now. This was supposed to become my feral pig carbine. Well, the bore is seriously rust damaged to the extent that the rifling remnants at the breach end resembles your Medford rifling. It does sharpen up toward the muzzle, effectively giving me a tapered bore. Well, I tried a few patched boolits and would you believe the patch protected the lead all the way through! I am going to see if I can get this thing to shoot with PP! A patched 245gr beasty that is difficult to seat in the case neck still fits the throat! Thanks for getting me drinking - er - thinking.:drinks:

[rayg]

"You know, I don't remember! I wonder what planet I was on when I did this!"

I guess you were drinking - er - not thinking. ;-)

[303Guy]

I guess you were drinking - er - not thinking. ;-):oops:
Actually I hadn't woken up yet - too early and I was thinking of finding work.:groner:

I actually found some too![smilie=w:

You know, a friend has this rifle with what looked like Medford rifling until I fired this through it. The rifling is now sharp and well defined.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-548F.jpg

[rayg]

I see the patch came off :mrgreen: