44-40 win '92, some help for the new guy

[skohler]

First post here, very nice site. I've reloaded 40 S&W for 15 years now, but with the current ammo situation, I'm looking to expand my horizon a bit.

I have a Win '92 in 44-40, made in 1916, that I shoot on occasion. I recently found an original winchester single mould for it and that is as far as the planning has gone. I've spent some time reading through many of these posts and am at the point where I really should reload this caliber.

I have a lee turret press and rcbs non-carbide dies. Not sure what the bore diameter is, the bore is really shiny but the lands are not real distinct. Best way to slug the bore??? Is there something that I should try to pour and harden in the mould to see what diameter it is?

I love to do things myself, but would it just be easier to purchase lead bullets the correct size rather than casting/sizing myself?? There are other calibers that I would possibly cast and reload for down the road, that is what makes the decision hard.

Thanks!
Steve

[405]

Something like a 20:1 alloy (20 lead to 1 tin) would be as good as any for seeing what the mold specs are. You'll likely be shooting about a 20:1 alloy for the bullets in that gun. You'll want to check the mold with the same alloy that you plan to shoot. Different alloys will vary as to their as-cast diameters. The 20:1 alloy seems to work well in the 44-40 with the lower pressure/ lower velocity loads that I shoot.

Good idea to slug bore. Just drive a soft lead slug down thru the bore. Lube the bore first. A 45 cal soft lead roundball or a fishing sinker will work. Measure the widest diameter across the slug... that'd be the groove diameter. The best fit for the bullet would be about .001" larger than the groove diameter. You will know about the mold when you cast a couple.

Once you get started casting you'll be in for a penny.... and for a pound. Seems the fiddling and experimenting will never stop once started. :roll:

[Bent Ramrod]

Generally, Winchester moulds were cut so the boolits would not need to be sized down. So likely the only problem might be the boolit is undersize for the bore. Cast a few boollits in your mould and mike them for diameter. Put one in the muzzle of your rifle, nose first and put a bore light in the breech end of the barrel. If you can't see light leaking out around the boolit, you've passed the first hurdle. Get a Lee Factory Crimp die for the .44-40 and add it to your die set. Make a dummy cartridge of the correct OAL with the boolit (use the Factory Crimp die) and make sure it chambers OK. If so, you should be pretty much set. Get a sizing die of the same diameter as the boolit, or maybe a thousandth larger, so you just touch up the parting lines and lube the groove.

Search the threads here on the ins and outs of .44-40 reloading. It's not as easy as cylindrical cases, but the caliber is quite an addictive one.

[skohler]

Thanks for the advice guys. I had heard the cases are difficult to reload due to the bottleneck collapsing.

Is there another substance that I can use to put in the mould besides hot lead to check diameter? I'm mostly concerned with the diameter to start, if it is off I don't necessarily want all the lead casting stuff around. It would likely just be easier to purchase properly sized/lubed boolits for now. I don't have a lot of extra space to cast if I can avoid it.

Steve

[405]

Well, to get ballpark witinin a thou or two you can use cerrosafe. Easy to use, low temp casting alloy that is used to get chamber/throat dimensions. I think it's a zinc/sulfur alloy.

As far as loading the 44-40. I have no problem with either the 44-40 or the 38-40. They have thin brass so rough or slopping loading techniques may crush some??

Just get some 200 grain, flat nose, .430" Cowboy Action type original style bullets in about a 20:1 alloy. Use cast bullet type or "Cowboy" type dies. Adjust the neck expander (M die) to give a tiny flare to the case mouth rim. Seat bullet so case mouth rim is in about the middle of the bullet crimping groove. Adjust the bullet seating die to where the roll crimp shoulder in the seater die puts a very light roll crimp on at the point where the desired OAL is.

Fire! really very simple cartridges to load. Trailboss is a nice powder to load in the short, fat, high expansion ratio cartridges like the 38-40 and 44-40. IMR has data for Trailboss for the Cowboy Action lype loads for the 44-40. Think lower velocity, lower pressure, nothing fancy, easy to load and shoot.... no problems

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
I have 2 of these Winneys.. one from 1893 and the other from 1907. Slugging the bore is NOT the real issue. You must slug the "Throat" area where the boolit enters the barrrel. My 1893 issue measures .431+ and the 07 issue is just a hare less. This was done I am sure because these rifles were made to fire BLACK powder and after 2 rounds that area of the bore starts filling up with fouling gunk. But today you need to fill those large diameters or have leading and wobbly boolits at the beginning of barrel travel. I shoot .432 diameter with very satisfactory results. thre muzzles are near .430 which works great as the fat boolits are squeezed down heaed through the barrel.
The origonal Winny molds drop a pure lead boolit at .427-8 Ok for Black powder but terrible for smokeless. I have lapped one rough mold out to .432 a(200 grains) and very happily launch those. My favorite is a Saeco 220 grain that drops at .432+. I personally would shoot the 220 as my 1st choice for everyday use. 240 grainers are no more accurate in my 2 rifles but this is the boolit I carry in the barrel IF I know I need better penetration. I also have a 260 grain mold (NEI) that I would use for bear or hogs. Again no more accurate BUT sure will dig deep.
I have used Unique in my loading as it worked so well. 7-8 grains with the 260. 8-9 with the 240 and 8-10 for lighter boolits. Sitting I can hit 3 inch rocks at 70 yards rather consistently.
I use the sofetest lead mix that will hold up under the pressure and near pure lead does this well with my loads. I want it to fill the bore. I want expansion on target. Now a hog or bear I would cast with wheelweight using all the Unique my particular rifle will handle.
I also segregate my brass to each rifle. They have different head space lengths and I just neck size my brass.
Those are the basics I have found with my 2 rifles. Great caliber!
Mike... still unpacking in Ill... the sick state

[MtGun44]

Missionary5155,

Welcome back to CONUS. How long will you be here? I enjoy your little
tidbits about Peru, plus your good comments on casting and loading.

Bill

[skohler]

Thanks a ton for all your help guys, all this info is great. I forgot how fun these were to shoot. Nothing like pulling the trigger, loud bang, then a whap as the projectile hits the target! Talk about a slow cannonball!

[w30wcf]

......I recently found an original winchester single mould for it and that is as far as the planning has gone......
Thanks!
Steve

Steve,
The WInchester bullet has two grease grooves and no crimp groove. It was designed to be crimped over the front driving band with the bullet base being supported by a case full of b.p.

By al means, as was suggested, get the Lee Factory Crimp Die. After seating the bullet so that the front of the 1st driving band is about .03" down from the case mouth, use the Lee FCD. It will impress a crimp groove into the bullet with the case.

Otherwise, you will most likely have bullets telescoping into the case under spring pressure while in the magazine since the .44-40 sizing dies I have encountered don't size the neck back to the length required to provide a base support for this bullet when using smokeless.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't know if it was mentioned here because while I read throught the posts, my son was prattling in my ear off and on, but the most common mistake with the old 44/40, aka 44WCF is people see that it is bigger than the 44Mag, therefore, holds more powder, therefore is more powerful. The weak link is the brass. Don't try and hotrod it and you will have a lot of fun with this calibre.

I have a brace of Colt clones, an old 66 Uberti, a near new 73 Uberti (which I will get to work one day!) and a real old 1892 Winchester. The cartridge is lots of fun and authentic to boot.

You have to pay close attention when reloading, because the slightest bump on the neck will damage the case beyond repair, causing you to chuck a few most sessions.

Enjoy, Four Fingers.

[Speedo66]

I load for 38-40, same issues w/ bottleneck cases.

Use the seating die to push the boolit to desired depth with almost no crimp pressure, then use Lee factory crimp die to crimp in place.

Trying to use the seating die to final crimp WILL result in crushed cases. Have had none since using the crimp die. Also, the boolits need a strong crimp or they will, as previously mentioned, be pushed down into the cases from a combination of mag tube spring pressure and recoil.

I use Trail Boss and I'm happy with the loads.

Good luck!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum.I too load 38/40 which is the 44/40 necked down. I cast the Lyman 401043 mold which is supposedly designed for 38/40, but it is a close copy of the old original Winchester mold. El problemo is both of these cartridges were designed for Black Powder which filled the case, so, in the absence of it, there is a lot of room in the case and nothing to support the seated bullet. Crimping behind the first band makes the loaded round too long to feed thru my Winny 73. I got a Lee factory crimp die and that put a sort of "stab crimp" on the edge of the mouth. It worked, but Brass for these calibers is pretty thin so continually chewing on the mouths is going to shorted brass life. My solution was to trim the cases back a bit so that the mouth could be slightly crimped behind the front band. Yes that is still working the brass somewhat, but it keeps the rounds from telescoping in the mag and it is not as bad as the damage being dished out by the Lee die. Good advice already given above...cast the bullets soft...at least as soft as WW-softer if possible as you want them upsetting to fill the throat and bore. Keep the velocity relatively low as these calibers are not hot-rodders. LLS

[BerdanIII]

Something else to check is chamber and/or throat length. I just measured my 1919-date Model 92 in .44-40 two different ways and the rifle will accept a 0.429" 215-gr. LSWC with a COL of 1.690" vs. the book maximum of 1.600". Rounds loaded this way won't feed through the magazine, but this is a range rifle so single-loading doesn't bug me (cartridges loaded to this length will eject from the action). I'm going to load up some rounds at 1.685" or so and see how they shoot. This rifle will accept a 0.433" paper-patched J-word bullet in unsized brass. To date, goups with both J-word and cast have been nothing to write home about, although the patched bullets shoot the best. A chamber cast is probably in order.

[Sixgun Symphony]

If it were me, I would be loading with BP or Pyrodex. Use SPG bullet lube as it's formulated for blackpowder loads and you are good to go.

[skohler]

Thanks for all the great advice. I made my first journey around the local tire places asking about wheel weights. No luck, and the local scrap yard wants 75 cents a pound for wheel weights.

I still want to cast, just trying to save up for all the equipment. Thinking about the lyman 4500 kit from Cabela's, the Lee 4-20 pro is also nice, but then I still have to get a sizer.

I plan on casting for .38 and .357, maybe 45 ACP. If I'm going to do it I want to make it worth my while!

[docone31]

Wheel weights are getting tougher and tougher to find.
Look up some roofers!
They have used/spent/nasty roof boots. Those are pure and make good ingots. From there, if you find wheel weight alloy, you can blend it in.
They are a pain to melt, but worth it.

[skohler]

Finally picked up some used casting equipment and cast up a few 44/40. I received a lee production pot IV that has proven a little touchy to say the least. Anyway, used the old winny mold and they measure out at .428. A little smaller than I had hoped, but it is what it is.

Once I got things tuned in, the casting went very well. I had a pile of dental film lead, a donated scuba weight and some random lead a neighbor used to add weight to a home build race car. Talk about a random assortment. Used a little 95/5 solder to add some tin and things went well. Overall not bad with my first attempt at casting.


Steve

[hiram]

There is a group buy that will be taking plase. You might want to consider this. 44 cal, 2 cavity, with reversible pins so the bullets could be solid nose or hollow point. In the neighborhood of .430-.432 diameter. About 200 grains in weight and it has a crimp groove. Plain base which is fine for 44-40 velosities. The mold, I believe, will also come with a punch to use in a lubrsizer.

[skohler]

Well, the good news is that my bore might like 'em. I put one in the muzzle and had to tap it pretty hard to get it all the way through to the chamber. Had a nice set of marks from the lands on it.

I know the chamber could be a source of problem, but maybe I'll shoot a few and see.

Hiram- thanks for the notice on the group buy. It is probably very preliminary, but do you have any idea as to the cost? An RCBS lubrisizer came with my last buy, may be worthwhile to do this.

[hiram]

As far as I know, the mold will be $100.

Check the site: www.mp-molds.com

You might like what you see. The mold is very versatile. On a double mold, cast either HP's, Solids, or 1 of each.

[Rick459]

those look pretty good for your first cast.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=51055

[skohler]

I wound up with 100 or so primed 44mag cases with a pile of reloading stuff I bought. Might try to run a few through my sizer die and see if I can get one to chamber. Nice to know someone that did it and had it work! I don't shoot 44mag so they will otherwise sit on a shelf. Might have to remove the mag primers, not sure if they would cause trouble.

[Four Fingers of Death]

First of all I see Erik's site the other day and now these guys. You fellas are determined to keep me poor ain'tja?

[w30wcf]

skohler,
Nice looking bullets! Congratulations.[smilie=w:

To give you some idea of what other molds are currently available for the .44-40...
Note the crimp groove formed on the right hand bullet by the Lee FCD (Removed from the case after being crimped.)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40bullets.jpg


Regarding the .44 Mag brass -- it is thicker and thus the neck is larger in diameter than the .44-40 and thus, will not chamber. Also the back of the .44 magnum case is smaller than the .44-40.

Have fun,
w30wcf

[skohler]

I do need to get a factory crimp die for this, thanks for posting that pic. Here is a pic of some of the rifling left when I pushed one of the poorer quality cast boolits down the barrel.

[9.3X62AL]

I've adopted SAECO #446 (200 grain round flat nose) for use in my 1873 Winchester carbine in 44-40 WCF. It has an adequate lube groove to service smokeless loadings and a generous crimp groove to keep the assembly in order as it shunts down the magazine tube.

Jack, one question about the Lyman #427666--does that nose design collide with leades or rifling origins in levergun chambers at all?

[Rick459]

I wound up with 100 or so primed 44mag cases with a pile of reloading stuff I bought. Might try to run a few through my sizer die and see if I can get one to chamber. Nice to know someone that did it and had it work! I don't shoot 44mag so they will otherwise sit on a shelf. Might have to remove the mag primers, not sure if they would cause trouble.

i found in my experiments using the .44 mag case is that using .427 dia. cast bullet and resizing the .44 mag case in the .44/40 sizing die for the first time i did not have any problems getting them to chamber and fire. but on the second loading i found that because of the thicker necks on the .44 mag and with case stretch that even using the .427 dia. bullet when you crimp the round it will either seat itself deeper in the case or move enough metal down tothe base of the case to where it will not chamber in the gun. to solve this problem i just chucked the cases into my lathe and turned a couple of thousand off the neck and so far after numerous reloadings i have not had any problems in chambering the converted .44 mag cases.HTH also i use magnum primers in everything that i load. just work up your loads.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture061-2.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

I saw an ad in the local gun rags today, John Wayne Commemoratibe 1892 Winchester, 44/40, $3900!

[w30wcf]

Jack, one question about the Lyman #427666--does that nose design collide with leades or rifling origins in levergun chambers at all?

Al,
It doesn't in my '94 Marlin nor original '73.

w30wcf

[Savvy Jack]

the Lee FCD (Removed from the case after being crimped.)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40bullets.jpg
w30wcf

Ah ha!

[Multigunner]

Well, the good news is that my bore might like 'em. I put one in the muzzle and had to tap it pretty hard to get it all the way through to the chamber. Had a nice set of marks from the lands on it.

I know the chamber could be a source of problem, but maybe I'll shoot a few and see.

Hiram- thanks for the notice on the group buy. It is probably very preliminary, but do you have any idea as to the cost? An RCBS lubrisizer came with my last buy, may be worthwhile to do this.

HI.
when you'd said

Not sure what the bore diameter is, the bore is really shiny but the lands are not real distinct
I got to thinking about the various types of rifling more common with pre WW1 and some pre WW2 rifles, many of which can look to the naked eye to be badly worn conventional rifling.

I'm not familar with the Winchester .44 bores but the Lee Metford bore, for the Black powder loaded earliest .303 cartridge, was one that came from the factory looking as if it were completely worn out.
The top of the lands was rounded and flowed smoothly into the rounded bottomed grooves.
Without sharp corners the bore fit the bullet like a banna skin, with no windage to allow blowby.
That sort of bore didn't hold up well to hot burning smokeless but could continue to shoot BP and soft bullets indefinitely when to the naked eye it looked slick as a bird barrel.

Generally a large bore low velocity round doesn't need as much bite as jacketed higher velocity loads.

Barrel steels were still fairly soft back then so they were bound to wear, and if a previous owner poured many jacketed high velocity .44 through it that would explain its condition.
Higher velocity .44-40 loads , and .32-20 loads of similar higher performance, were brought out to take advantage of the Model 92's stronger action compared to previous Winchester Lever actions.

[hiram]

I believe a 2 cav brass mold with pins and nose punch for the 450 type lube/sizer is about $100.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have 2 1892's. One from 1893 & the other is 1907. Both have throat areas that measure .431+. I use .432+ molds and have no problems with chambering and accuracy.
My 44-4- New service down in Peru had varying chanbers so I equalised them all at .431 and it shoots the same loads as my Winny down there.
The option of using 44 Mag is good to know. Just may have to play with that the next time we are up here in the U.S. of A.

[Pioneer2]

A friend just sold an unfired John Wayne NIB for $1000......I have access to a .44-40 Cheyenne gold platted cheap on a 94 action but fear it likely has a .44 mag barrel .430 dia so bullets may be a PITA.Harold Anybody know what dia bores Winchester commemoratives had in .44-40?

[cajun shooter]

The Lyman 427098 is the same bullet as your original. I have three of those molds and they all drop bullets from around .430 to .429. My rifle slugs out at .427 and I size and lube my bullets at 429. The early Winchesters had bores that ran as small as .424 You did not say what yours showed it to be.If you are going to shoot this rifle alot I would purchase the Lyman mold and The Lee FCD I would also shoot the real BP with 44-40 cases only. Buy some from Starline brass direct. I have never had a single problem when loading these cases. I shoot 44-40's thjree weeks out the month with two rifles and three revolvers. Later David