38 SPL +P case question

[jcw1970]

I recently acquired some +P cases and am loading a lyman 35863 flush with the case top. 3.4 gr bullseye. One problem, they seem to bulge the case where the bottom of the boolit ends up. Around the middle of the case. The case chambers with no problem in my model 52. Just nervous about actually firing them. same boolit, regular case, no bulge. Any thoughts?

[sheepdog]

Cases tend to bulge a little after seating, this is why alot of people with Lees use the factory crimp dies to slim complete cartridges down for feeding. But remember the brass flexes and flows after a hot loading then retracts after it cools then goes through further tightening after sizing so this is not unheard of.
Measure your boolits and make sure they aren't oversized. If they aren't and the boolit is only 1 to 2 thousandths of an inch over bore size than you're good. If you're 4 to 5 thousandths than you need to size down or you're going to hit big pressure spikes.

[jcw1970]

Forgot to mention that the cases are nickel. my regular cases are brass. boolits are sized to .3555. barrel slugged at .3545.

[sheepdog]

.3565? Thats a pretty tight. Most 38s are going to be in the .358 range. I'd be afraid to fire factory 38 FMJs out of that thing. Might measure your cylinders as well. If they are also pretty tight might be shaping the brass pretty tight.

[jcw1970]

Smith & Wesson Model 52 only shoots wadcutters.

[Leftoverdj]

+P brass often has a quicker internal taper that causes the bulge you mention. As long as the loaded cartridges chamber freely, the bulge will not cause a problem, but those undersized bullets will. You need your bullets to be at least .357 and probably .358. It's unlikely you can use them with those cases.

The mentioned practice of resizing loaded cartridges guarantees undersized bullets and poor accuracy. Whoever came up with that should be grabbed and shaken, but it's somehow spreading.

A pistol as nice as the Model 52 deserves proper ammo. Standard brass cases should work, but it might be worth buying a case of match WC. In my competitive days, it was common practice to shoot factory match in competition and reload the empties for practice.

3.4 grains of 231 under a flush seated WC sounds a bit hot to me for a Model 52. 3.0 or 3.1 is a lot easier on the pistol, and probably more accurate as well

[sheepdog]

The mentioned practice of resizing loaded cartridges guarantees undersized bullets and poor accuracy. Whoever came up with that should be grabbed and shaken, but it's somehow spreading.

You can take that up with John Lee at Lee Precision. I'm not a fan of factory sizing dies myself.

[jcw1970]

wrong measurement for the barrel. should be .3545. i know sounds impossible. did it twice though.

[S.R.Custom]

wrong measurement for the barrel. should be .3545. i know sounds impossible. did it twice though.

Not impossible at all. Those guns had tight bores; that's one of the big reasons why they shoot so well. The old model 39s were that way too.

And +1 on the LFCD hate... But if you're loading for generic/commercial consumption, it's the only way to go to assure proper function in some of the SAAMI minimum chambers out there.

Personally, I've always opted for the brass R-P (standard loading) cases for use in the 52. I've generally reserved the use of Plus-P and military cases for use in revolvers with sloppy chambers.

[thebigmac]

[b] +p brass was not intended for wadcutters. That bulge is in the case for a reason.. If you load a swc, the end of the boolit will not reach that bulge. My 52
doesen't get +p brass for that reason. Just my $.02 [/ b]

[jcw1970]

guess i need to trade my +p brass for some regular 38 spl.

[Firebricker]

How many do you have ? I'd do some tradin. Right now I think I only have Federals that are'nt loaded right now. FB

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi, In running an M52-- WC's only-seated flush with the case mouth and the cases should be maintained to proper length trimwise. Nickel cases in my 52 do not shoot as accurately as brass ones. I don't know why. In using mil-spec brass which is thicker I have had to size bullets to .356 and they have worked well accuracy-wise. If I don't do this then there is the bulge. The slide needs to work so one cannot go too low on the powder charge, but running things hot is not necessary either. If nothing else it batters the gun and a 52 is something you want to keep around. They are not produced any more (for a while now) and finding a good one, if you can, is not likely to be a cheap venture. I have successfully shot competition with a loading of 2,5-2,7 grains of 700x at 25 meters. Below 2,5=no reliable slide functioning. Over 2.7= groups opening up. Bullet used is H&G #258 which is the same as Lyman 358063, with lube in bottom groove only. With commercial brass cases I size at .357. Alloy is straight WW and not hard. 2.5-2.7 grains of 700X is not a lot of whammo dust so I raise the muzzle a bit before each shot to keep positioning honest. Checking any good manual you will note that charges of powders in the fast lane are low charges and often used with Hollow Base WC's as well, so the classic charge of 2.7 grains of Bullseye is generaaly in the ballpark of how fast things should travel with an M52 or a S&W M-14 and the likes of such. For dedicated paperpunching lower recoil and report is considered to be desireablor so say the champs. Good casting & shooting. LLS

[Gohon]

Starline states on their web site that the only difference in their regular 38 Special brass and the +P brass is the head stamp so shooters can tell what they are loading in the gun. Have been told there is nothing special about +P brass and it is the same for other manufactures.

[BruceB]

I recall checking +P brass against REGULAR service-type brass, for such types as RN and SWC .38 ammo, and finding no difference except the headstamp.

Where I DID find a difference was in the "MATCH" cases, which seemed to have a consistent wall thickness deeper into the case (no increase in thickness until close to the base), obviously to accomodate the longer straight sides of 148 HB wadcutter bullets.

MATCH brass from Remington, Winchester and Federal all carried two cannelures, usually one conventional cannelure around the bullet, and another, much lighter cannelure, closer to the base of the case. This makes the cases identifiable at a glance, without even reading the headstamp.

As a result of the above, I segregate MATCH brass from the others for use in our M52s, but I find no difference in thickness or weight between "regular" .38 Special brass and "Plus-P" .38 brass. The difference in marking is purely a convenience for manufacturers and users, if the loaded rounds should become parted from their packaging. I like to keep the Plus-P stuff apart from the others purely because I prefer a consistent appearance in the cartridge box.... just a cosmetic thing. There's no functional difference, and no real need to concern ourselves. I DO recommmend sorting-out the MATCH brass, however.

[Leftoverdj]

My quarrel is not with the FCD, although I've never felt a need for one, but with the practice of using it to iron out case bulges caused by seating a bullet. Doing that squeezes the bullet under the bulge to a smaller diameter because there is nothing else to give. Used as intended to just crimp, it may do a fine job.

As to the internal taper, bulged cases with flush seated WC is all the proof needed to show that it happens. It may not happen with all makers or all lots, but I've thrown away enough bulged cartridges to know it sometimes happens with +P cases and happens a lot with +P+ cases. Wish now I had hung onto a few examples.

[Bret4207]

I agree with DJ, the concept of the FCD is fine. You just have to think a bit before using it. Any sizing of a loaded round or even seating and crimping can resize the boolit within the case. A light application of the FCD to remove a very light ripple is one thing. A heavy application can squish ( the accurate scientific term) the boolit way undersize.

Remember the FCD was intended for use on jacketed ammo. It's a good design used properly.

I'd also like to mention my near insane jealousy that so many members here seem to have 52's! I've only even seen one in 40+ years and never held or shot one. You lucky dogs!

[Leftoverdj]

I agree with DJ, the concept of the FCD is fine. You just have to think a bit before using it. Any sizing of a loaded round or even seating and crimping can resize the boolit within the case. A light application of the FCD to remove a very light ripple is one thing. A heavy application can squish ( the accurate scientific term) the boolit way undersize.

Remember the FCD was intended for use on jacketed ammo. It's a good design used properly.

I'd also like to mention my near insane jealousy that so many members here seem to have 52's! I've only even seen one in 40+ years and never held or shot one. You lucky dogs!

Bret, I'll stoke that jealousy a bit. When I was shooting against the model 52s, I was shooting a Benelli in .32 S&W Long WC. It's not quite up to a 52, but it's about as much fun as a man can have, and a poor boy could afford one. Some importer had brought in a small trial batch, had trouble moving them, and closed them out for something under $200. Still have it, and it's one of those guns that's not for sale at any price.

[jdgabbard]

The mentioned practice of resizing loaded cartridges guarantees undersized bullets and poor accuracy. Whoever came up with that should be grabbed and shaken, but it's somehow spreading

I've been doing it since I started, and it is working fine for me. Zero leading.

[JIMinPHX]

When I first started loading my own shotshells for a .38, I had case bulge problems. I found a note in the Speer manual about using cases that had been factory loaded with full wadcutters. I got a box of el-cheapo S&B flush seated full wadcutters, shot them up & saved the brass. That brass has been working well as my .38 shot cases ever since.

[Down South]

I have several FCD dies and yes, they will (Would) sometimes resize a boolit. Like stated above the FCD was actually designed for jacketed bullets which normally run a smaller diameter than what we need in cast. One caliber that I had a problem with the FCD swaging my boolits was the 38/357. Another was the 44 Mag. I punched the carbide post sizing ring out of both dies and have had no more problems. The FCD does a beautiful job of roll crimping these two calibers and I like to crimp in a separate station. When I bought the several FCD’s that I have I was unaware of any boolit swaging problem till I started using them. Back then the FCD was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread and it may be for jacketed bullets. If your FCD is swaging your boolits, you have two choices. Do like I did and punch the sizing ring out or buy another die designed to crimp only.

[243winxb]

If m52 barrel is 5 groove, its hard to get a correct diameter.

[Bret4207]

Bret, I'll stoke that jealousy a bit. When I was shooting against the model 52s, I was shooting a Benelli in .32 S&W Long WC. It's not quite up to a 52, but it's about as much fun as a man can have, and a poor boy could afford one. Some importer had brought in a small trial batch, had trouble moving them, and closed them out for something under $200. Still have it, and it's one of those guns that's not for sale at any price.

You got a mean streak a mile wide, ya know that?![smilie=b:

[Gohon]

Do like I did and punch the sizing ring out or buy another die designed to crimp only.

Two questions............ I looked at my die and I don't see how the sizing ring can be punched out without having a machinist cut a tool to it. Second question is what other die would you recommend that gives a roll crimp as good as the FCD?

[Down South]

Two questions............ I looked at my die and I don't see how the sizing ring can be punched out without having a machinist cut a tool to it. Second question is what other die would you recommend that gives a roll crimp as good as the FCD?



The sizing die is easy to punch out once you do it once. It is crimped into the FCD die from the bottom. If you screw the top, crimp part out of the die where you have nothing but the barrel of the die to look at then you can see the very edge of the bushing in the bottom of the die. It’s a very narrow edge that you will see. Take a GOOD punch that has sharp edges on it and slide it down against the side of the die till it reaches the sizing ring. It will take several raps with a good hammer, 2Lb or better. Work your way around the die while you are driving out the sizer ring. After four or five licks the sizer ring will pop out. You will have to dress the bottom of the die just a little after you remove the sizer ring due to the crimped area. After that you have a great crimping die that doesn’t post size your cartridges.
I screw the dies into my old RCBS Rockchucker to remove the carbide ring.

The other question, what other die? Your choice, there are several out there.

[Bret4207]

The sizing die is easy to punch out once you do it once. It is crimped into the FCD die from the bottom. If you screw the top, crimp part out of the die where you have nothing but the barrel of the die to look at then you can see the very edge of the bushing in the bottom of the die. It’s a very narrow edge that you will see. Take a GOOD punch that has sharp edges on it and slide it down against the side of the die till it reaches the sizing ring. It will take several raps with a good hammer, 2Lb or better. Work your way around the die while you are driving out the sizer ring. After four or five licks the sizer ring will pop out. You will have to dress the bottom of the die just a little after you remove the sizer ring due to the crimped area. After that you have a great crimping die that doesn’t post size your cartridges.
I screw the dies into my old RCBS Rockchucker to remove the carbide ring.

The other question, what other die? Your choice, there are several out there.

Interesting info!

[anachronism]

Is the case bulge uniform all around the case or is it more prominent on one side? Your seating die may not be seating the wadcutter squarely. I know my old Hornady Durachrome die seats wadcutters crooked, but my New Dimension seems to get them square. You could also try not resizing the cases, just decapping them, flaring them & loading them. Try one to see if the cartridge seats okay. If it does, this may be your solution. Your sizing die could also be sizing your case too much. You could also cut one case in half, with a Dremel too & see if the case is too thick at the base by setting a wadcutter in at your normal seating depth. This would answer your question once & for all.