Why not make your own jackets?

[barryjyoung]

Hello:

I am rather new here. I don't see any posts on making jackets. Why?

I understand that the equipment is expensive if you have to buy it, but looking over the videos from Dave Corbins site points out that the process really doesn't look terribly complex. The dies do not appear to be anywhere near as critical as point forming dies. True, there are many dies involved, but they look really simple to make.

Enlighten me someone before I waste a bunch of time learning that making jackets is really hard to do.

Has anybody on here ever made jackets?


Thank you

Barry

[Storydude]

I made 100 last night from .22LR brass.

Larger jackets get harder to make.

[sqlbullet]

I am newish as well, but you need to look through the swaging forum. Lots of guys are making jackets, many of them from spent brass. Freakshow10mm makes .400 slugs using 9mm cases, and BT Sniper makes all kinds of interesting stuff.

Spent brass seems to me like the way to go. I am all about projectiles that don't cost me anything but time.

[barryjyoung]

Storydude: What makes them hard to make? .22 cases will make .22 and .s43 jackets only if I read the info here correctly. I need 30, .357 and .45 cal. Thanks for answering

sqlbullet: making jackets from spent cases looks to be very time consuming. I want to make them from copper strip or perhaps copper tubing. Thanks for answering.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I am wanting the ability to make jacketed bullets that shoot at least as well as factory. I want this ability in case supplies dry up even more.

[BT Sniper]

Barry,

Check the .357 from .223 thread for your .357 jackets.
A good jacket for a 45 should be able to come from a sized down 45 case but then you are shooting the same jacket you are firing the bullet from ultimately reducing your supply.
30 caliber jackets would need some reducing dies for jackets from 30 carbine or .223. Again the only thing I have mastered is jackets for .429 but I'm positive the same technique will work with other calibers.
Check the "45lc 45acp and 45-70 bullets from acp case" thread on page 3. Notice the acp cases with the base milled off. Imagine the base milled off of 40 S&W, 9mm, .223, 30 carbine and the many other cases used for jackets and it would make a very good looking bullet.
I am interested in making some riffle bullets as well, check out some of the work done with copper tubing.
Accuracy from my 44 pistol and brass jacketed bullets has been able to match and top factory.
Keep at it, eventualy you will come up with somthing that will work. It is alot of trile and error for me with many times of fustration but when it suddenly all comes togther it is a lot of fun.

Good shooting,

BT

[sqlbullet]

Check out corbin's website or his brother's site, RCE. They have lots of stuff for forming jackets from tubing. You can use tubing from them, or stuff from the hardware store.

BT Sniper talks about removing the crimp groove in his 45/70 bullets, but for lots of applications is is very easy to use spent casings. When using tubing or strips you have to form the cup, which takes several steps. Many of the threads about using spend casing don't utilize any dies beyond the basic swaging and nose forming dies.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=50635

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46953

I am not pushing used brass as jackets, but wanted ensure you had a clear picture of what is being done.

[BT Sniper]

Sql,

Thanks for the compliment.

Kawalekm does some nice work (links you provided) and has beat me to perfecting almost everything I thought about trying. It was his posted work on the 429x40S&W bullet that got me into all of this.

Good shooting

[sqlbullet]

You got it BT...I just sit back and envy those of you that make time to do this. Between a full time job and six kids between the ages of 13 and 2, I barely have time to cast.

[BT Sniper]

I'm a stay home dad of twin 2 year olds myself. Wife works full time and no nearby family to help out. Has to be hardest job I have ever had. Sometimes sitting down to cast some lead is just the stress relief I need.

[bohica2xo]

Make your own jackets? sure why not.

I know you guys have spindle time to burn, but I can't justify machining a case when I have a punch press - machine tools are for making production tools.

Spanking the extractor groove off is no big deal. Bumping up (40 S&W case to .452 bullet) can be done, but for the average reloading press it is easier to draw down (40 S&W case to .410 bullet), since there is no punch stripper on a Rock Chucker. Shearing the rim off of a 38 Special is even easier (.375 bullets).

A quick expander pass on FN 5.7 cases, then a draw down makes an ok .308 jacket. All easily done in a loading press.

But if you really want jackets that "shoot at least as well as factory", then you must take the same steps as Berger does with a J4.

Childs play really.
Dust off that transfer press, and toss a decent sized 4 poster on the bench.
Calculate the clamping force for the cupping die, the punch clearances & radii for the copper strip you plan to use. Calculate the steps for the next three or four drawing stations, and the final trim die.
Machine 3 or 4 complete sets of punches & dies from D2, and send them to the heat treater. Once you get them back, run them through the ID/OD grinder to finished size.

Of course if you are drawing really long jackets (or making cases) you will need to put an anneal step in the process someplace, then feed annealed parts into the remaining die stages to get where you want to go.

High quality jackets are amazingly precise. Wall thicknesses are very close tolerance. Lengths are carefully controlled. Weigh & measure a batch of J4's sometime.

If you really want a challenge, start making the dies to swage solid copper bullets. I spent months making the stuff below .308 work right.

Does that school you work in have a punch press? An old die set you can use? With enough press you can make some nice brass jackets...

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

Barry, 22 RF can indeed make .224 & .243 Jackets, the main issue is that 22 RF jackets are somewhat thinner than conventional jackets, therefore the issue is the toughness of the thicker copper is better...

Making jackets from tubing, or anything else is going to be time consuming, i.e. what you save in purchasing bullets from any manufacturer, you're going to payback in your personal time.

Take Care,

Jim


Storydude: What makes them hard to make? .22 cases will make .22 and .s43 jackets only if I read the info here correctly. I need 30, .357 and .45 cal. Thanks for answering

[barryjyoung]

BT Sniper: I have looked at modifying cases to make jackets from. I was looking more for a way to make them from raw materials. I would have to buy the brass to make the cases from anyway. Mostly it is just for fascination with the process. I am much more intrigued by the idea of making jackets from tubing. Looking into that and copper strip very closely. Thanks for your post.

sqlbullet: I expect that I will probably make my own dies for jacket reduction and tubing modification. The information on the Corbin website is very good. Wow! 6 kids? You DO have your hands full. I have a very clear picture of what is happening. Thanks to the people who post here.

bohica2xo: Machining a case? I also cannot justify machining cases even though I do not have a punch press.. I wish I had a punch press. Have you ever seen plans for a proper punch press? The cheapest used ones I have seen are way out of my financial range. At this point this means making or modifying a hydraulic (SLOW) press similar to and usable as an arbor press. I agree, I want to make jackets just like Berger does. Just like on the Corbin video that I have. I agree, it is not rocket science. The reduction dies are simplicity itself. I will make those. The blanking die is fairly simple (harder because I have never made one, I am a toolmaker, not a diemaker). The cupping die seems to be the most difficult. So I will probably buy my first set from Dave Corbin then go from there on my own. My machinery at home is limited and I am too busy at work doing my job making machinists to do any of this. What is a transfer press? I assume a “four poster” is a die set? I have a heat treat furnace at home. I do my own heat treat. Grinding is doable. Have to finish my toolpost grinder. No, the school does not have a punch press. I do not have formulas for calculating cupping die forces or die clearance. I am sure making dies for solid bullets would require extremely stout stock to begin with as enormous pressures must be involved. I wish I had spent at least some time in a punch press environment. We tend to make airplanes in this area and so most of my career has been spent making fixtures and airframe components. Thanks for your great response.

[barryjyoung]

Jim Fleming: I agree, this is going to be time consuming. I am not interested in doing it to save money. Although many people get into handloading, bullet casting and swaging to save money, that has never been one of my motivations. I am in this game for the wonder of it. I am fascinated with the process and want to be able to do as much of it here at home as I can. I shoot so little that it would be FAR less expensive to simply buy ammunition. My interests in handloading and bulletmaking are way out of proportion to the amount I shoot. My handloading needs would be easily met by my Rockchucker press, yet I am so intrigued with the process that I have installed three progressives and a turret press on my bench. It is a hobby rather than a way to save money. Thanks for the response, you made me think about why I do this.

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

I worked for Lockheed Aircraft for 10 years after I finished my apprenticeship. They certainly had plenty of punch presses. Blanking, notching & some forming was done in table setups regularly.

Old punch presses are not expensive around here. I bought a little 15ton unit for 200 bucks a couple of years ago. Anything that does not have current OSHA controls is hard to sell commercially without a retrofit.

Yes, a 4 poster is a 4 post die set. A transfer press is a large crankshaft driven press with an arrangement to "transfer" individual workpieces from die station to die station. A progressive die feeds strip in one end, and once the blanks are cupped the parts move down the line of dies. The strip scrap is chopped with a shear in the die & falls out. The finished jackets fall out the other end.

The blanking dies are as simple as it gets. You just need to keep the clearance tight enough to get a clean cut on thin copper. Were it not for the diameter, you could blank in a loading press.

The cupping die depends on a certain ammount of pressure holding the flat blank beyond the diameter of the punch. That pressure is calculated from the punch diameter & nose radius, the die mouth radius, & material thickness / yield strength. Refer to Machinery's Handbook for some formulae.

Solid copper swaging is not for the faint of heart. Tons of force on a .224 punch can be exciting...

If you have the shop space, a small screw machine is a hoot. I have seen older Tornos units bring scrap prices lately. A 10 foot bar, and you can be making bullets in a couple of hours. I shot many "feet" of 12L14 bullets from my M60...

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

And Thank You, Barry, for such an eloquent, polite, and deeply passionate reply...

'Nuff of the touchy, feely stuff now...

Take Care,

Jim



Jim Fleming: I agree, this is going to be time consuming. I am not interested in doing it to save money. Although many people get into handloading, bullet casting and swaging to save money, that has never been one of my motivations. I am in this game for the wonder of it. I am fascinated with the process and want to be able to do as much of it here at home as I can. I shoot so little that it would be FAR less expensive to simply buy ammunition. My interests in handloading and bulletmaking are way out of proportion to the amount I shoot. My handloading needs would be easily met by my Rockchucker press, yet I am so intrigued with the process that I have installed three progressives and a turret press on my bench. It is a hobby rather than a way to save money. Thanks for the response, you made me think about why I do this.

[barryjyoung]

Bohica2xo: Boeing runs punch presses too, or at least I am sure they must. I just never worked in a shop that did that kind of work.

Your response was filled with lots of new terms and good information. Please don’t let me wear you out, Still, it is good to get information from someone who knows.

“Blanking, notching & some forming was done in table setups regularly”. What are table setups?

I will look around here a little closer to see if there might be a punch press hiding. The economy has destroyed the used junque dealers I used to shop at around here. Punch presses are fascinating. There is not much info online about the principle. From what I can see it looks as though a punch holder is operated by a crankshaft carrying a large heavy flywheel driven through a ring gear. Am I close? It seems like the motor would have to start and stop each cycle which seems very inefficient. Surely I got that part wrong. Must be some sort of clutch involved.

Looks like I won’t be needing the transfer press. I looked a couple up and they are way out of my price range. But don’t think my mouth didn’t water when I saw them.

OK, I am fairly certain I can build the blanking dies here at the house. Just a matter of available time really. I still may buy a Corbin die rather than learn a new trade. I will bring home my Machinery’s Handbook and give it a look for the formulae, thank you.

“Solid copper swaging is not for the faint of heart. Tons of force on a .224 punch can be exciting...”
For those reading this who have not worked around large machinery,,,exciting is bad. Sometimes very bad. Dull, drab even boring is what we seek.

A screw machine, that DOES sound like fun. I haven’t run a screw machine in decades.

I really appreciate the time you obviously put into answering my question. Thank you

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

Table setups
A table setup is a work table that is bolted to the bed of the press, usually with a grid of tapped holes for attaching work stops. All die sets must be qualified to the height of the table.

A notching die is a simple shearing die with two open sides @ 90 degrees with a radius at the corner. The shearing edge is level with the table. A blanking die is a die holding arrangement that uses a standard round die size top & bottom, with the bottom die level with the table.

With the machine stopped, the notch punch is run down to a closed position, and a part template with an irregular shape is placed against the notch punch. Stops are set to the back edges of the template. The template is removed, and the machine started. An uncut part is placed into the stops... and bang the material hanging into the punch opening is gone.

3, 4 or 5 setups later, the part looks like the template. Corner notches for brake work is a real common use. A good operator can make 20 or more setups in a shift, and move many small orders. Round holes are done by the same process, but the punch is guided through the template by hand for setup, and a stripper may need to be adjusted.

We table formed countless flanged lightening holes in titanium intercostals this way - a round forming punch & a table setup. Blank holes, swap dies, form flanges.

Punch Presses
Most smaller presses are not geared. A simple V belt drives a flywheel continously. A mechanical dog clutch connects the flywheel to the crankshaft for one revolution, when the press is "tripped". The magic of a punch press lies in two things - speed, and equal force in both directions.

The stored energy in the flywheel is substantial. The ability to send it to the crankshaft suddenly makes the punch move quickly, which makes shearing easier. The heat generated by forming quickly stays with the part, and helps with forming too.

The reverse stroke power is very important for things like ejection & stripping. If your loading press only pushed, it would be a pain in the backside. Actually that is called reloading with an arbor press...

A punch press has a relatively precise guide on the ram. It is best to build really close tolerance stuff in a die set however. Look around for used presses & die sets. A die set can be used repeatedly, until it looks like swiss cheese. You could build your blanking & forming dies on a common diameter, and put bolster plates in an old die set to match. Then you could form in batches.

"exciting"
I guess I should define that. Snapping the shank on a 1/2" endmill with a heavy cut is annoying. Snapping the shank on a 2" endmill @ 25,000 rpm by going to .025 / tooth chip load is EXCITING. When a forming operation is close to bulging a D2 die that is Rc58, excitment can happen suddenly - and the flying pieces are like a whole magazine of 25acp headed your way.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

holy cow!!! a 2" end mill snapping... @25,000 RPM, is a bit more'n exciting...

'nuff said, I'll get in trouble...

Jim's biting his tongue! :P :mrgreen:

[Frank46]

i've seen a pic of someone useing a large arbor press to form bullets. Don't know what the tonnage rateing was but the press was about 3-4' high. Should be able to locate one in used machinery sites online. I would guess a bigger is better approach.
We used one to broach keyways on pump impellers. Frank

[bohica2xo]

Jim:

It is a matter of scale...
http://machinedproductsgroup.com/files/Gantry2.jpg

That is the table he is walking on, probably running all 3 spindles @ 10,000 rpm - machine is rated 100 horsepower.

http://machinedproductsgroup.com/files/30v_2.jpg

The ultimate "stairmaster". No wonder I was always worn out at the end of a 10 hour shift.

B.

[barryjyoung]

bohica2xo: Thanks for the information. I am trying to digest it all. I see what you mean about pressure in one direction only.

I ran Cincinatti Gantry mills like the one you showed at the Boeing Space Center in Kent WA. The ones there had three 5 axis spindles with tool changers and beds 200 feet long. I would fill a whole dumpster with chips every shift. Is that a 950 control on that old mill? Must have been a retrofit. These sure beat Wilsons.

[Jim_Fleming]

bohica2xo:

I ran 2 different Cincinnati Hypowermatics for quite a few years, but My God! The bed on the 'chines I've run couldn't have been FIFTY (50) feet long!

Good Job, Sir!

Jim

[ANeat]

Good old Milacron, (thats where I work) Great pics.......

Looks like a 950 to me ;)

[bohica2xo]

Jim:

As they say "Few things in life are more dangerous than an unsupervised apprentice on a five axis machine."

Barry:

When I started out, Lockheed was still punching tape. Any CNC control was an improvment. We had a retrofit on a bar that used audio casette tapes to store programs...

I worked mostly in tooling, so we would build tooling on those beasts. Production was always amazed at the stuff we would do - they liked boring repetitive work.

ANeat:

I always liked most of cicny's equipment. I logged 2800 hours on Hydrotels during my apprenticeship, and was always amazed at what they were capable of. I ran some real crap too - K&T Modulines, Sundstrand Omnimills...

---

To all of you guys that have worked with the bigger stuff, a tip of the hat. Every time someone tells me they are a "machinist" I ask them what the range of equipment is they can run - it is amazing how many of them have never even seen a 50 taper spindle, and think all mills have a R8.

As an apprentice they sent us everywhere. One month it might be nothing but a Levin & a Microscope. Or a week on Moore jig bore, tapping 0-80 holes, the next week a five axis gantry. Tool & Die, production - until an advisor found your strong areas. If you went the distance with all of your fingers, you got a Journeyman card. I sure don't miss the 60 hour weeks.

B.

[barryjyoung]

bohica2xo:

I have been looking at punch presses. A 10 ton will run about $1500 which makes the price of a Walnut Hill look absolutely cheap by comparison. With that punch press comes a pretty steep learning curve by comparison. The walnut hill or Dave Corbin press will accept standard dies as well as load ammunition. I think I will probably go the Corbin route, though it would be nice to have a punch press.

I have run Sunstrand OM-1 and OM-2 mills, they are certainly crap. Of the stuff I have run SIP jig borers are the best for conventional machines and Leblond Makino the best for CNC.


The guy at Home Depot asked what I was working on when I asked if he had any type M copper tubing in 1/4 inch. He sort of freaked out when I told him I was making jacketed bullets. I guess the PC thing to do would have been to tell him I was making rubber baby buggy bumpers.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Look for a book the NRA had for sale a long time ago "Ammunition Making". It was written by a Chemical Engineer that started out in an ammo factory in the Phillipines and them went to work at Western Cartridge. It has photos and drawings of the machines and tooling to make everything from the cups and anvils for primers to multi step drawing dies to produce cartridge casings and bullet jackets.

Link:http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11504385M/Ammunition-making
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_military/0935998578.html

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

Look around a little more. A unit without up to date controls like this:

10 Ton press on E-Bay (http://cgi.ebay.com/small-punch-presses_W0QQitemZ400054830578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d252045f2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)

Will not bring much. If they bolt that to a pallet, it will ship via Yellow or GI just fine.

You have to go to the used machinery dealers, and look through the orphaned stuff. There must be a few used machinery places where you are. Really, 5 tons is plenty for what you want to do. A 15 ton unit is like killing flies with a sledgehammer.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

What you could've done was tell him that you were working experimental ventilation systems... High Volume of flow creates more through air flow, lol! :Fire:

Or (all kidding aside) you could've told him you were working an experimental infloor hotwater heating system... Or even better, "Oh just an idea I have to try and accomplish.

Sorry Guys, I take intrusions like that seriously... One time a guy looked over a lot of my finished bullets, realized that I had more control over what goes into a chamber than is 'humanly possible' and he called me, to my face, DANGEROUS!!!:!:

I grinned and told him he didn't know the half of it... He left and hasn't spoken to me since.

Take Care Y'all,

Jim



Barry,

The guy at Home Depot asked what I was working on when I asked if he had any type M copper tubing in 1/4 inch. He sort of freaked out when I told him I was making jacketed bullets.
Barry

[WILCO]

Every time someone tells me they are a "machinist" I ask them what the range of equipment is they can run


Biggest thing I've run are Acme-Gridley and Shutte 6 spindles........[smilie=b:

[barryjyoung]

Barry:

Look around a little more. A unit without up to date controls like this:

10 Ton press on E-Bay (http://cgi.ebay.com/small-punch-presses_W0QQitemZ400054830578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d252045f2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)

Will not bring much. If they bolt that to a pallet, it will ship via Yellow or GI just fine.

You have to go to the used machinery dealers, and look through the orphaned stuff. There must be a few used machinery places where you are. Really, 5 tons is plenty for what you want to do. A 15 ton unit is like killing flies with a sledgehammer.

B.


I am watching it now and have contacted the seller. Thank you.

I will go look at some used equipment dealers in Seattle on Tuesday. Now that I know 5 ton is plenty, I have a chance at getting what I need.

Thanks very much.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Look for a book the NRA had for sale a long time ago "Ammunition Making". It was written by a Chemical Engineer that started out in an ammo factory in the Phillipines and them went to work at Western Cartridge. It has photos and drawings of the machines and tooling to make everything from the cups and anvils for primers to multi step drawing dies to produce cartridge casings and bullet jackets.

Link:http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11504385M/Ammunition-making
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_military/0935998578.html

I am downloading it now. The only one I could find used was $250 and I can't afford that much. Thanks very much for the links.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

Wilco:
My back hurts thinking about that. A few months with a #5 W&S was plenty for me. The last Gridley I was close to was knee deep in sulphurized oil & chips... Did I mention I am not a production guy?

Barry:
There are plenty of machines out there, keep an eye on e-bay & the locals (craigslist too) and you may find what you want nearby. Here is another one on e-bay:

22 Ton Clearing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280356932349&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=280357788157&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu% 3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4)

A bit more than you are looking for, but it is in CA. This is the "other" press arrangement, with the crankshaft axis facing you - the flywheel is in the back of the machine on this type.

5 tons. 10,000 pounds of force. Like dropping your pickup on something... For light tasks you can slow the flywheel down some if you like. A 1/3 hp motor can spin one up with a VFD.

B.

[inuhbad]

Wow! Great info!

[barryjyoung]

Wilco:
My back hurts thinking about that. A few months with a #5 W&S was plenty for me. The last Gridley I was close to was knee deep in sulphurized oil & chips... Did I mention I am not a production guy?

Barry:
There are plenty of machines out there, keep an eye on e-bay & the locals (craigslist too) and you may find what you want nearby. Here is another one on e-bay:

22 Ton Clearing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280356932349&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=280357788157&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu% 3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4)

A bit more than you are looking for, but it is in CA. This is the "other" press arrangement, with the crankshaft axis facing you - the flywheel is in the back of the machine on this type.

5 tons. 10,000 pounds of force. Like dropping your pickup on something... For light tasks you can slow the flywheel down some if you like. A 1/3 hp motor can spin one up with a VFD.

B.

Hi bohica2xo:

Yes, I did see this punch press. I am hoping for a 5 ton Benchmaaster OBI or something like it. What does the acronym OBI mean? I have seen it applied to several pnch presses made by different manufacturers. I am waiting on a big check though and will probably not buy anything until that shows up. I am pretty sure I am going to score a punch press, a larger lathe and a Bridgeport when my money shows up. The plan was to buy a Corbin Press and dies but I am certain I can make all the dies I will need and the mill, lathe and punch press will expand my capabilities much more in other areas than a Corbin press would. I think I want a heat treat furnace too.

Either flywheel arrangement would work for me. One thing I am not is particular. This flywheel arrangement in back is what makes this a :stripper" press?

5 ton would be like dropping three of my truck on something.

Other than the clutch which seems very much like an electric clutch on an automotive air conditioning compressor, these things look pretty simple. Pretty much you get a heavy flywheel spinning then trip a clutch to drive a crankshaft with it for one revolution which moves the punch holder down and up. Right? I know some punch press clutches are pneumatic.

I get the feeling I would be a lot happier with a punch press than a Corbin press because of the versatility a punch press has. I see what you mean now about a hydraulic press. It has mucho power but only in one direction. I would have to make one with a double action cylinder. And still may.

I moved here in February. Lots of my junk is still in boxes in my new workshop. Sunday we finally got the compressor wired in. 220V is not my favorite. It was nice having plenty of power in the workshop subpanel for a change. In our previous house which was rented I ran everything in the shop except lighting from one 20 amp breaker plus one 20 amp breaker I installed for the table saw. In our current house which I own, there was already 40 amps in place for the saw. That leaves 160 amps at the workshop subpanel for the rest of my needs. It is still single phase, but after living on 20 amps for so long this is awesome.

The other consideration is space. In our last house I had my shop built 60 inch CNC mill, an 8X20 lathe, Cabinetmakers table saw, 6X40 horizontal bandsaw, thickness planer, 14 inch vertical bandsaw, full size floor model drill press, 6 inch floor model jointer, two bench grinders, water heater, washer and dryer, and mass stored wood and metal all in a one car garage. Even with all that in there, my wife and I both were able to comfortably work in there by carefully placing our machinery to maximize space. This house by comparison is huge. The laundry and water heater are elsewhere, the shop is not attached to the house and I have a 24X30 area dedicated to nothing but working room. This is about three times the space I am used to working in. Still building benches at this point. One bench has been completed for the sliding compound miter saw which has a depression for the saw in the middle of a 25 foot long bench that is level with the saw table. Oh that makes crosscutting so easy. One more workbench to put in and cabinets underneath to build so I can put everything away. That will not stop me from buying new used or used new machines and having them sit and wait for me to get to them though.

I sure appreciate all the information on punch presses. Without your help I am sure I would not have gone that way.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I found a picture of the CNC mill I made. In this picture the Grizzly Minimill milling head is attached. It also has a Porter Cable router head. I built the bench it sits on from 100% recycled materials. The bench has no metal fasteners. Everything is pinned mortice and tenon joinery.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Have you had a chance to look through "Ammunition Making" yet?

[barryjyoung]

Have you had a chance to look through "Ammunition Making" yet?

Hello deltaenterprises:

I downloaded the book from the link you provided and it is excellent. I am reading it now. Thank you so much.

Barry

[stiles]

Can someone show me an example of a double action press that you would use for a blanking and cupping die? Page 9 of Ammunition Making mentions this type of a press and I've never seen one.

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

The term "OBI" is an acronym for "Open Back, Inclinable"

This simply means that the press is made with an opening behind the die bolster, so that long stock could extend through the die from the front of the machine to the back of it - or the wall behind it...

Incline ability means that the press base is adjustable, so that the press can be tipped back, with the front edge of the die significantly higher than the rear edge. This can be useful for clearing punched parts out the "open back" on high production setups, or to assist with banking parts into a tool without the need to use a stop on the front of a die.

OBI is a common feature, but not really important for what you plan to do. Just make sure the stroke length on any press you buy is somewhat longer than the longest jacket you intend to make. You can special order a press with a very short stroke for high speed jobs, but they are not common.

"Shut Height" is another term you may see. This is the dimension from the bottom of the ram to the table, with the crankshaft at the bottom of the stroke. Almost meaningless if you will be making dies to fit the machine. Again, machines could be orderd with unusual shut height measurements - either very large, or somewhat reduced.

Clutches.
Most smaller presses use a mechanical clutch. It is a dog or key type with a very abrupt engagement. Imagine a keyway in that flywheel with a key in the crankshaft that can be engaged by a lever. One revolution, and it drops out. Many older presses had a simple foot pedal to acuate a mechanical trip lever.

Larger presses (20 tons or so) may have air clutches. I have seen 100 ton units with a plain old mechanical clutch however. It depends on the age, and who ordered it. Air clutches are usually an annular piston with a dry, multi disc clutch.

Clicking clutches.
When a mechanical clutch is worn, filthy or needs adjustment it will begin to "click". I have walked past many a press with the telltale "click" once per revolution of the flywheel. This is the key, kissing the edge of the flywheel slot. It is not the end of the world, but a fair warning that some maintence should be performed.

In the current atmosphere of light beam safety curtains, two hand controls, OSHA etc. a press with an audible click is treated like a grenade missing a pin. I bought a nice 10 ton unit with a broken 20 cent coil spring because it was clicking and "might malfunction". Took almost half an hour to fix. I sold it later for a significant profit.

It sounds like you are building a nice shop. I like the micro gantry CNC. You will be doing more 220v work as you add industrial machines. You will need to become familar with VFD's for your equipment. A VFD pays for itself quickly, and gives you variable speeds on things like a step head Bridgeport. I installed a VFD & a 3 phase motor on my pool pump a few years ago, and it paid for itself in 11 months @ 10 cents / Kwh.

B.

[barryjyoung]

Barry:

The term "OBI" is an acronym for "Open Back, Inclinable"

This simply means that the press is made with an opening behind the die bolster, so that long stock could extend through the die from the front of the machine to the back of it - or the wall behind it...

Incline ability means that the press base is adjustable, so that the press can be tipped back, with the front edge of the die significantly higher than the rear edge. This can be useful for clearing punched parts out the "open back" on high production setups, or to assist with banking parts into a tool without the need to use a stop on the front of a die.

OBI is a common feature, but not really important for what you plan to do. Just make sure the stroke length on any press you buy is somewhat longer than the longest jacket you intend to make. You can special order a press with a very short stroke for high speed jobs, but they are not common.

"Shut Height" is another term you may see. This is the dimension from the bottom of the ram to the table, with the crankshaft at the bottom of the stroke. Almost meaningless if you will be making dies to fit the machine. Again, machines could be orderd with unusual shut height measurements - either very large, or somewhat reduced.

Clutches.
Most smaller presses use a mechanical clutch. It is a dog or key type with a very abrupt engagement. Imagine a keyway in that flywheel with a key in the crankshaft that can be engaged by a lever. One revolution, and it drops out. Many older presses had a simple foot pedal to acuate a mechanical trip lever.

Larger presses (20 tons or so) may have air clutches. I have seen 100 ton units with a plain old mechanical clutch however. It depends on the age, and who ordered it. Air clutches are usually an annular piston with a dry, multi disc clutch.

Clicking clutches.
When a mechanical clutch is worn, filthy or needs adjustment it will begin to "click". I have walked past many a press with the telltale "click" once per revolution of the flywheel. This is the key, kissing the edge of the flywheel slot. It is not the end of the world, but a fair warning that some maintence should be performed.

In the current atmosphere of light beam safety curtains, two hand controls, OSHA etc. a press with an audible click is treated like a grenade missing a pin. I bought a nice 10 ton unit with a broken 20 cent coil spring because it was clicking and "might malfunction". Took almost half an hour to fix. I sold it later for a significant profit.

It sounds like you are building a nice shop. I like the micro gantry CNC. You will be doing more 220v work as you add industrial machines. You will need to become familar with VFD's for your equipment. A VFD pays for itself quickly, and gives you variable speeds on things like a step head Bridgeport. I installed a VFD & a 3 phase motor on my pool pump a few years ago, and it paid for itself in 11 months @ 10 cents / Kwh.

B.

Hi B:

Thank you so much for all the information. I looked everywhere for an explanation of OBI. As soon as you said it was Open Back Inclinable I knew exactly what you meant. It was an Aha moment. No more guessing about that!

I installed a VFD and DC motor on my lathe to allow variable speed. I am pretty familiar with variable frequency drives.

I totally get the dog clutch and key clutch concept, thank you. I guess that would be a lot cheaper and easier than an electric clutch.

At this point I probably have enough information to construct a punch press from scratch. If I had more time than money. Which happens sometimes. Right now I have more money than time so I will be awaiting the right deal after the big check shows up. Shipping on the last punch press I saw was $250 which I thought was pretty reasonable compared to my driving to Florida from Seattle. I have the month of August off so I would consider a long drive to get the right press then. Any way you look at it, this will be a great adventure.

The 20 ton air over hydraulic press I bought to make a swaging press from will now be used in a dedicated lead extrusion press.

No Corbin products for the time being. I want to make my own drawing and swaging dies. It would be quicker to buy Corbin, but making the dies would be more rewarding and it really is not rocket science. The more I read the easier it seems. I may invest in an air gage however. I see pretty inexpensive ones on evilbay. I am beginning to wonder why the swage die boys charge so much.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Can someone show me an example of a double action press that you would use for a blanking and cupping die? Page 9 of Ammunition Making mentions this type of a press and I've never seen one.

Hi Stiles:

Here is a picture of a punch press which is the right device for making jackets and probably for swaging bullets too.

You can also do jacketmaking with a bullet swage press like those sold by David Corbin at

http://www.corbins.com/

and his brother Richard Corbin at

http://rceco.com/MN.asp?pg=MetalWHill

We are learning a lot about punch presses from bohica2xo on this list. read his posts and you will learn a lot too.

Barry

[stiles]

I've spent a bit of time in tool and die in a stamping shop years ago but all I really did in tool and die was the wire edm burns on the die plates, no real design or anything like that. All the press were standard punch press from 8-250 tons but they were all single ram press. A double action or double crankshaft press has concentric rams that work out of phase of each other so one can do blanking and the second/center ram will cup the blank, at least that's what the text says. I googled around for double action press double crankshaft press and the only press I saw that where of that type started at 100 tons which is way too big. I was hoping to find something like this in a 20-30 ton press, smaller would work but IIRC the ram velocity starts to get nice and slow around 20 tons. Yea that's still too big.

There may be a way to blank and draw in one hit with a standard punch press but I don't know how.

I figure a purpose built hydraulic press would probably be the most economical solution, something similar to what Corbin is doing with their jacket maker. That's just my guess though. A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.

[barryjyoung]

A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.

I always mess up my hobbies by making them businesses. I did it with photography, screen printing, camera repair , woodworking, and cameramaking, I think I want to make one at a time just so I don't do something stupid like attempt competing with Hornady or Sierra.

Barry

[highscore]

I've spent a bit of time in tool and die in a stamping shop years ago but all I really did in tool and die was the wire edm burns on the die plates, no real design or anything like that. All the press were standard punch press from 8-250 tons but they were all single ram press. A double action or double crankshaft press has concentric rams that work out of phase of each other so one can do blanking and the second/center ram will cup the blank, at least that's what the text says. I googled around for double action press double crankshaft press and the only press I saw that where of that type started at 100 tons which is way too big. I was hoping to find something like this in a 20-30 ton press, smaller would work but IIRC the ram velocity starts to get nice and slow around 20 tons. Yea that's still too big.

There may be a way to blank and draw in one hit with a standard punch press but I don't know how.

I figure a purpose built hydraulic press would probably be the most economical solution, something similar to what Corbin is doing with their jacket maker. That's just my guess though. A dual crankshaft press would be awesome, banging out 12 or more blanked and cupped jackets per hit is just they was to go if you can swing it.


There is a way to blank and cup in one operation. Check out Baird Transfer Press and if the pics are detailed enough, you will see how it is done. Basically, the blank punch blanks out the material and upon hitting dead bottom center, holds down the blanked material until a drawing punch comes through the blank punch and draws the blank through the cup die. Unfortunately, depending on the exact dims required, the cup needs to go through more draws and then the excess head "clipped" off. A complete jacket is the end result. If you have the ambition, you can do them "one at a time" but...
Bob

[highscore]

I had to laugh when I read the post about the Benchmaster OBI press. I had two of them that I sold this spring after over a year of trying. They were 3 ton and had safety controls on them. I put them on Craigs list and another internet forum and decided that if they did not go, the scrap man was getting them. As it turned out, they made it out alive with three days to spare. $200 each, I thought it was a good deal.
Bob

[Jon]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

[Storydude]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

Gotta pay to play.


That is, unless you know a Tool and Die maker.

[barryjyoung]

Is there anything less expensive than corbin? I can't afford $800 to make 223 from 22lr.

Buying bullets is cheaper.

For me it isn't about cheap. If it were, I would have to do the math to find out that making 22 bullets from 22lr jackets saves me about 2 cents per bullet for a LOT of work. Don't forget to include the time spent learning to swage, finding "free" materiials, boiling those free 22lr cases to loosen the priming mixture, cleaning them, annealing them, and all the time taken to turn them into bullets.

Unless you are planning on making runs in excess of 100,000 bullets (twice the lifetime of steel dies), you are going to lose money swaging bullets. In my opinion anyway, and I have never done it, I have just taken a stab at crunching some numbers.

I see lots of people talking about how they want to save money bullet swaging or even handloading. I wonder how many of them consider ALL the costs and then calculate how much they are saving?

Good luck in your swaging. I hope you find something that works for you.

Barry

[inuhbad]

Barryjyoung, most peoples' interest in this subject isn't necessarily a Cost Related concern... It's about sustainability.

Many of the people here view themselves as somewhat of a Do-It-Yourselfer, and some of them consider themselves to be 'survivalists'. However, in the long-term, a true survivalist is someone that lives a fully sustainable lifestyle. Somebody who doesn't rely upon others to SELL them goods they might NEED.

For example, the current primer scarcity. Most people can't find any primers anywhere no matter how much they look... There was a time as well when BULLETS cannot be found anywhere for purchasing. Massive price increases & gouging... All kinds of supply-related problems with ammunition.

That's why I got into CASTING bullets - Locally, I couldn't FIND any ammunition! There are still several sporting goods stores in this state that are COMPLETELY out of stock with some pistol & rifle caliber ammunition! Hunting ammo, FMJ ball ammo, plinking ammo - you name it --> IT'S GONE!

I drove a good ~90 miles, but they were asking $40 for a 50rd box of ammo!!!

Instead, I decided since I load my own ammo for nearly all of my calibers, I'll just start casting my own bullets! I couldn't FIND anything in stock, and most online places were showing 'out of stock - no backorder'.

Such is still the case with Primers unfortunately. :(

At least I have enough powder, boolits (now that I can cast my own), and plenty of cases - I just need primers!

Since some of my rifles (AR-15s, etc.) prefer J-Bullets, it would seem fiscally conservative and more sustainable if you could just head down to the construction supplier store, pick up a 100 foot roll of copper shims, and then produce your OWN jacketed bullets.

I'm NOT going to go buying the 22 LR die set - not anymore - the jackets they create are actually rather 'thin' for high velocity bullets. I've started talking with some tool & die makers, reading up on some books, and I'm going to design & machine MY OWN jacket forming dies & punches!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/bannie/ForumPics/NewBooks.jpg

There's a TON of information out there on how to do this - and if you also have a friend in the industry as a die designer, it's CERTAINLY a feasible option to buy the right materials, chuck them up in a lathe, and start cutting your own dies & punches.

I have an RCBS RockChucker II, and I also have access to a powered 20-ton Air-Over-Hydraulic H-press. I figure it'll take me months to further digest all the vast amounts of information in these books, and consult my friend for advice & assistance based upon his experience designing dies for years - and then I'll get started on the lathe to churn out my first set of dies.

I won't get much progress on this project for this year, but at least it's good to get started with the researching & designing.

If you're not living a sustainable lifestyle, you'd better have a good stockpile on hand of things that you cannot produce yourself - or you might someday be out of luck if the supply disappears or of the costs skyrocket too far out of your reach.

[barryjyoung]

inuhbad:

Sorry, can't buy that. If it was about being self sufficient you would worry about many other things before bullets. Like gasoline, salt, sugar, flour and Cheetos brand cheese snacks.

For the $2800 it would cost to buy everything you needed from Corbin to make jacketed bullets, you could buy one heckuva lot of bullets from Sierra or Hornady. Add to this that you would not have to do the labor on all of those bullets. Again, consider that that $2800 worth will NOT make $2800 worth of bullets, it is just enough to get started. Nope, I have to believe that people make their own jacketed bullets because it is such a cool and enjoyable thing to do.

I am curious if you are talking to us on the PC you made from scratch (making the resistors, capacitors and integrated circuits yourself so that you can maintain your self sufficiency principals) and then drove it home in your scratchbuilt pickup in the name of sustainability? Do you buy things? If so, why are you so against buying bullets in particular?

I love this line of reasoning if for no other reason than the lunacy of it,,,,"If the economy completely folds I want to be able to continue consuming my 1000 rounds per month IPSC activities". Ha! If the economy tanks that badly nobody will be worried about shooting sports, they will be worried about shooting looters. You don't need 20,000 rounds to shoot looters. So anybody who goes to the trouble of making jacketed bullets to maintain their shooting sports in the new dark age is nuts.

I just want to make jacketed bullets cause it is something fascinating and wonderful.

Thanks for trying to straighten me out though.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Ha! If the economy tanks that badly nobody will be worried about shooting sports, they will be worried about shooting looters. You don't need 20,000 rounds to shoot looters.



Barry

If it gets that bad, it will be like playing IPSC 24/7 and with only 20,000 rounds you may be a little short on ammo!:Fire:

[barryjyoung]

Delta:

I love it.

Geez, I hope it never gets that bad.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

The foxfire books? really? Allrighty then.

Design & build dies to make bullets in a 20 ton, single acting hydraulic press? OK, I guess.

I suspect I could add bicycle pedals to my B&S 00 screw machine if the lights go out, and keep spanking out bullets in the dark - and lose a few pounds too. All I need to stockpile is some 12L14 barstock. My AR's love that bullet...

With a punchpress you can make cases - or primers if you want. The learning curve on primers is awful steep I hear.

If you have a machine shop, and the skills to run it you can make most anything. I can grind a button & rifle a barrel If I really want to. I still buy barrel blanks, primers, cases, etc. I guess I am too lazy to be self sufficient.

Delta - IPSC is too close for me. I think I will start at rifle ranges.

B.

[barryjyoung]

The foxfire books? really? Allrighty then.
B.

Last night I spoke with my students about generating first surfaces by hand scraping. I am pretty sure the Foxfire books have an excellent discussion about how to make a surface plate. Surely that is one of the first things that would be required to rebuild civilization after armageddon.

If you lived in a fourth world country, you might have a kerosene powered screw machine.

Speaking of screw machines. People are basically giving them away. I may look for one of those too. I might just have the room for a 00.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

I suspect my granite plate will survive most disasters. If not, one of millions of granite countertops across this nation will have to do...

The last foxfire book I read was awfully crude. My father was a blacksmith, and I already have those skills - and tools. I think of foxfire as a good place to look for hog rendering skills. Making a multistage punchpress die after reading a foxfire book seems like a big stretch to me.

Yes, mechanical screw machines are going for scrap value. I paid 250 bucks for a beat 00, because of the tooling I got with it (60 pounds of Cogsdill roller units in a box) and as a parts machine. I recovered the cost rather quickly.

Hardinge AHC's don't bring much anymore either. Buying good, american made machine tools now, while prices are depressed seems like a good idea to me. I just wish I had more space to put it all.

"A kerosene powered screw machine". Not a big stretch. I have a Listeroid out at the ranch, and my dad's original shop still had an overhead shaft. I know how to make that work. My brother still has the drillpress, and the universal mill with the 4" drives for a flat belt. I helped him put a bridgeport head on the overarm. My heavy 10 still has a leather belt.

Stockpiling raw materials is another thing. We both know how steel is made, but there is no way we could produce a decent grade of steel at home. I still make parts from 52100, so there is always plenty of that on hand - it would be a PITA to make a barrel from, but I could do it.

I seriously doubt I will ever need to make barrels or bullets by hand to survive. I keep shooting one way or another for practice. A decent air pistol & 500 pellets a month keeps the sight work & trigger control sharp. The lack of 'yotes at the ranch is due to rifle "practice". Yes, primers are hard to find right now. The panic will settle eventually.

B.

[inuhbad]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

[highscore]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

If this is what you want to do, that's cool. A lot of work but... If you let me know the dims of what you want to do, I can give you the breakdown for your starting thickness and width of material needed, and percentages of reduction. Dia, length, thickness of both the bottom and side wall is what you have to decide on.
Bob

[barryjyoung]

I don't see why some are so quick to mock people in their replies here. I do a fair bit of machining work, I do CAD design and some engineering work for a profession, my family owns an association of farms with LOTS of livestock & cropland (THEY own it - not some bank) so food is a non-issue. I don't have to focus on preparations as that area is rather well taken care of by myself and others.

That said, I find my idea of machining my own set of dies to be a fairly feasible undertaking. Especially with the help of a friend who has worked in tool & die design for nearly the past 30 years. I'll be drawing up my designs, then running them past him for critique prior to machining anything.

In my industry, I've learned and come to appreciate the fact that catching flaws & errors in the design phase will save a person untold sums of wasted money when you start attempting any prototyping work.

Although I know someone who owns an old beat-up gap-frame flywheel press he won't let me use it for liability reasons. So I'll stick with a 20ton Air/Hydraulic press hooked to an air compressor with a foot-actuated pedal to run it hands-free. Granted it's a slower press - but I don't find it impossible to accomplish this task.

You DON'T need lots of tonnage to punch out blanks, press cups, and expand them into jackets...

Please forgive me if I don't post a more thorough clarification as to what I posted earlier. I'm sorry my replies don't come in a more facetious, presumptive, or dismissive manner when discussing ideas, processes, and information. Since I don't know how much (or how little) a person knows about various subjects or professions I'll continue to check my ego at the door and leave the juvenile commentary to others.

I can see I will not get any further information or ideas from others here. Sorry for the intrusion - best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.

I was not mocking you. I was mocking the idea that you wanted to make dies to make jacketed bullets in the name of sustainability. That is what you said. Re-read your post.

I will help you in any way that I can. I would love to see you succeed in your diemaking project. I think it is a cool and doable project. I just don't think it should be for any reason besides the fun of it. Survival? People interested in being ready just stockpile, they don't make stuff like jacketed bullet swaging dies or primers.

Seriously. I want to help you.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

If this is what you want to do, that's cool. A lot of work but... If you let me know the dims of what you want to do, I can give you the breakdown for your starting thickness and width of material needed, and percentages of reduction. Dia, length, thickness of both the bottom and side wall is what you have to decide on.
Bob

Hi Bob:

Can you share the formulas?

Thank you

Barry

[peterthevet]

You guys may be interested in this link........scroll down page till you see The Bullet Factory pics and check out contents . http://people.aapt.net.au/~nelltash5/bullet%20factory%2002/index.htm This Aussie made his own bullet forming gear from scavenged material ........very interesting. Cheers Peter

[deltaenterprizes]

Fantastic videos!

[barryjyoung]

You guys may be interested in this link........scroll down page till you see The Bullet Factory pics and check out contents . http://people.aapt.net.au/~nelltash5/bullet%20factory%2002/index.htm This Aussie made his own bullet forming gear from scavenged material ........very interesting. Cheers Peter

Thank you for sharing this site. There were some great vids there.

I especially liked the video of the cup forming operation.

Thanks again

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I have to go to China for a few weeks to teach a class in October. A lot of time is being spent right now getting ready for that trip and making the class from scratch. When I get back my life will be much less hectic and I will then be able to devote a lot more time to this hobby. I will collect all the necessary tools this summer and start making tooling in the fall/winter. Then there will be a lot to show on this thread.

The lathe I have is too small. I will be turning it into a CNC machine as soon as I get a larger one in August. My homemade CNC mill is not rigid enough to run steel so I will need to buy a Bridgeport type mill for making tooling. I have no punchpress so that will all be new. I also need to pick up a small surface grinder.

My thanks to Bohica2Xo. B has educated me about punch presses and cupping in particular. Before I met him I was planning on buying new Corbin presses and dies. Now I am going to use a punch press.

Thanks to deltaenterprises too, your contributions have been excellent.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Always glad to help out when ever I can!

[Bluehawk1]

Ok...now I'm curious. Other then the materials needed for primers...cup...anvil...foil...why is the learning curve steep? (chemical composition??)

[Bluehawk1]

I would love to make my own jacketd bullets but the cost seems so far out there...it's not anything I can afford.
I guess I'll have to stick to bullet casting...been doing that for over 20 years!

[barryjyoung]

Ok...now I'm curious. Other then the materials needed for primers...cup...anvil...foil...why is the learning curve steep? (chemical composition??)

I think it was best explained on another site. It isn't the cups or the anvils, that is the easy part. The steepness of the learning curve is caused by being regularly blown up. The priming compounds are not like powders that burn at a controlled rate, they are actually explosives and are controlled as explosives by our good friends at BATFE. They should be too because the only way to learn to make them is to try and try and try until eventually something goes wrong and the whole place goes up into the air with a big boom. This is how primer manufacturers learn what NOT to do. The learning curve on primer manufacturing is pockmarked with horrendous accidents and other learning opportunities. That is why I don't want to learn to make primers.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I would love to make my own jacketd bullets but the cost seems so far out there...it's not anything I can afford.
I guess I'll have to stick to bullet casting...been doing that for over 20 years!

Yes, it is way too expensive to buy the stuff to make your own jackets. But, if you bought the dies from CH-4D for $127 and a bucket of jackets from Berger it would not be too expensive. It only really gets spendy when you:

A. Want to make your own jackets from copper sheet.
B. Want to make your own copper sheet from copper ore.
C. Want to mine your own copper ore from your own open pit copper mine in Montana.
D. Want to build your own copper mining equipment from scratch in the name of self sufficiency.

I just want to learn how to make jackets because I am fascinated with the process. This is a really dumb reason but it is the best one I have come up with. Being less than completely unreasonable I have decided to just buy the copper strips. This is my consolation to convenience. I would be miles and miles ahead to simply buy bullets from Sierra or Hornady or anybody else. No doubt about it.

If anybody sees any plots of land for sale in Montana large enough to open a small open pit copper mine please keep it to yourselves, I am in enough trouble already.

Thank you.

Barry

[Jim_Fleming]

Barry, for what it's worth, you've got at least one reader that does understand and agree with your point. (to a point! LOL!) I too like all of my fingers and what's left of my nine (09) toes just exactly where they are...

Anyway, the thing I'm getting out of this thread, is that jackets are pretty difficult to make in just a couple of steps.

Remember when you load that coppery gem into that rifle or pistol brass you're NOT going to want to see or tolerate anything that's not as smooth as a mirror. No wrinkles or puckers or dent's or whatever... For one thing wrinkled slugs just ain't gonna fly as good as unwrinkled ones will and do.

Copper is a heckuva lot tougher'n lead, hence MUCH higher drawing/swaging pressures.

That being said, I do like the idea of taking old fashioned house or barn roofing and converting them into coppery jewels of accuracy and precision.

I'd like to do it too, but the problem is an economic one. I don't have the time or money left to make before I retire to acquire the dies I'd need, but it's possible, if I ever hit the lottery, that I'll just say to the dickens with working for someone else, and re-open my old business name, "Blue Pill Specials!" making and selling slugs of all diameters, weight and length combinations possible, and sell my "Specials" at about 5% above costs, just to thoroughly annoy the people that oppose our 2nd Admendment Rights.

[techlava]

There got to be simpler way, like inserting the right diameter section of a thin wall tube with semi closed end in a mold cavity and pour.

[Red River Rick]

There got to be simpler way, like inserting the right diameter section of a thin wall tube with semi closed end in a mold cavity and pour.

That's been done. Actually, there has been moulds made to do this, they weren't very popular. The major problem is there is no consistancy and after one casting session, your fingers will be so burnt from trying to get the inserts/jackets into the mould, you'll scrap the idea.

RRR

[techlava]

Thanks.
We used to insert metal parts in plastic injection molding with great consistency over millions of parts. I think you need a gig to insert the copper sleeve, keep temperature and pressure constant to get reliable result.

[scrapcan]

Barry,

you can use the thought process that you will start to supply others in a market with limited production and limited supply as a reason if you need it. Make a size that is useable by some of us here and maybe it will help to pay you to play.

[7of7]

Jackets are not easily done in a couple of steps,... I think it is at least four depending upon the caliber you need...
I am currently making 30 cal 150 gr rebated boat tail bullets with an 8-S ogive profile. They look really good. Looking forward to this weekend, I will get to see how well they fly out to around 500 yards...
I am also making a 3/4-E point 110 and 130 grain for my 30-30 and 30 carbine. Even trying out some rebated boat tails on these too...

I really enjoy doing this, and it is a challenge to keep things consistant throughout the process so the results are the same.

I forgot, I am also doing some bonded core bullets in the 150 grain weight....

Now I have to go cleam my garage again so I can continue relaxing...

Barry, we got to get together...

[Jim_Fleming]

Guys, please keep us posted on your successes... OK?

We're all looking forward to you guys having good luck.

The .30 copper pills sound sweet...

[barryjyoung]

Barry, we got to get together...

I agree, We need to meet. Right now is not the best time though. Currently my busy schedule precludes my doing anything at all. I am working full time, creating an online class out of thin air for use in China, taking three classes myself, trying to get my workshop arranged, overhauling my new used 10x36 Atlas lathe completely and I also have guests coming the next two weeks in a row. After that I will be free. Everything except the garage and lathe projects will be finished by August 1. Let's plan on some time in August.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Even though I am busy I have been working on an idea in my few spare thought moments. The idea is for jacket redrawing dies (the dies that are used after the blanking and drawing die using hardened drill bushings. This is probably going to go nowhere because it is probably just as easy to make the whole die as it is to make a die body that accepts drill bushings as inserts. I do not know yet. Still don't even have a punch press, but I will.

I have learned that the "cupping die" that some of us referred to on this thread is actually called a drawing die. This drawing die is followed by a series of redrawing dies that reduce the cup to the diameter we are looking for and also increase its length.

So first I will make jackets, then proceed to making lead wire, then cores, then jacketed bullets. This will all happen right after I finish all of the tasks whined about to 7of7 in the last post.

I found a surface grinder for 300-400 bucks but the fellow is not quite ready to sell it.

The lathe I just got is a 1937 vintage Atlas model TH54. It has a ten inch swing and will turn a part 36 inches long between centers. This is big enough for anything I will do in gunsmithing or bulletmaking. It also has a power crossfeed for facing which was a big deal. Larger stuff can be done on the lathes at work if I have to. I have decided not to buy a Bridgeport milling machine. The CNC mill I made works fine for most things and I have 6 Bridgeports and a small horizontal boring mill at work if I need something more stout or need to work on harder steel. This lathe makes the 9X20 Jet brand taiwanese lathe that it is replacing look quite small by comparison. I will move the digital readout, Aloris type tool post and the oversize chucks I fitted to the 9x20 over to the Atlas. These mods should make the Atlas a pretty efficient work platform.

So I still need a punch press and need to get my shop setup. Then I can think about making dies for making jackets. If later on I see the need to put a more rigid mill in my shop it will be a jig borer rather than a milling machine. They are far more accurate and don't cost any more on ebay, usually less.

I looked at a much larger lathe on Saturday before buying the Atlas on Sunday. It was a 20 inch swing lathe with a 14 FOOT long bed. The problem was not the size, the problem was the clunkiness of the controls on a lathe that big. It is hard to do precision work on a lathe that has a 600 pound carriage. About the time you get the thing moving it is time to stop and the inertia on a big casting says otherwise. I paid almost twice as much for a smaller lathe but feel it will do better work for my needs.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Thursday is the last day of school, I have to teach a half day and then I am off on a cross country trip to gather machine tools.

I have located an Atlas 7 inch shaper as well as an Atlas horizontal milling machine. I will pick those up on Friday morning. Saturday morning an Atlas 12 inch lathe is arriving at my house.

This means that the Jet 9x20 lathe and the Atlas 10 inch lathe will be for sale next week. Both are excellent machines but I only need the 12 inch Atlas, until I find a 16 inch Monarch that is.

Now all I need to do is find a punch press closer than the East Coast. If anybody sees one I am looking for a 5 to 10 ton OBI punch press. I have two lathes for trading stock.

Thanks

Barry

[mac0083]

Welcome back BarryJ. I've been reading this thread with excitement and have been anticipating your return.

I've been seriously thinking about getting the swaging equipment from Corbins, but the dies to turn copper tubing into jackets is about $500 !!! Then there is the Swaging press @ another few hundred and then the lead swaging dies.... oh why do I even bother getting my hopes up...

I just want to make bullets that look like they came from the factory from scrap copper tubing that I have laying around. It should be saving me money!

[swageall]

Barry, check your e-mail

swageall

[barryjyoung]

Barry, 22 RF can indeed make .224 & .243 Jackets, the main issue is that 22 RF jackets are somewhat thinner than conventional jackets, therefore the issue is the toughness of the thicker copper is better...

Making jackets from tubing, or anything else is going to be time consuming, i.e. what you save in purchasing bullets from any manufacturer, you're going to payback in your personal time.

Take Care,

Jim

Hi Jim:

Yes, I know that 22lr cases can make thin jackets, that is how Vernon Speer got started.

I realize and have stated in this very thread that this is a money loser but that I am not doing it for economy but simply because I am fascinated with the process.

That's why they call them hobbies.

Barry

[Jim_Fleming]

Yes, Barry, well said, with passion and interest! Good Job Sir...

Hee, hee, someone one time when I showed them some of the contraptions I've made called me DANGEROUS! Then when he realized how much control over bullet weight I had, (+/- .1 grains at a time heavier or lighter! ever hear of a 155.3 gr Jacketed Semi-Wadcutter in a .357 Magnum?) he got interested in the idea of tailoring a bullet to a load in the same manner a reloader tailors a load to a rifle...

But that's for another story.

Barry, don't forget about .22 WMR cases, they make nice heavier bullets or perhaps up to .243/.244 diameter.

Keep posting, sir, I'm interested in your progression/progress.



Hi Jim:

Yes, I know that 22lr cases can make thin jackets, that is how Vernon Speer got started.

I realize and have stated in this very thread that this is a money loser but that I am not doing it for economy but simply because I am fascinated with the process.

That's why they call them hobbies.

Barry

[mac0083]

You guys may be interested in this link........scroll down page till you see The Bullet Factory pics and check out contents . http://people.aapt.net.au/~nelltash5/bullet%20factory%2002/index.htm This Aussie made his own bullet forming gear from scavenged material ........very interesting. Cheers Peter

Hey guys, what would it take to make jackets like they do in this video? Would an arbor press do the job? How would I make the dies for this?
Also, why do they make cups first, then punch the cups into jackets? Why don't they make the jacket out of the copper disk in one step?

[deltaenterprizes]

I think they are annealed and pickled between drawings.

[docone31]

They would have to be. Copper gets brittle real fast when being drawn. Forming a cup from a disc really moves the copper around. The edges start checking, then a crack runs from a check. If they were spun, useing some kind of spinning machine, annealing could be minimized, however they would still have to be annealed at some point.
Somehow, the top of the cup has to be formed from a circle larger than the top of the cup. With a jacket, you cannot fold the copper layer. It will present unreliability upon use.
There are probably several sizeing steps on the road to makeing a cup.

[barryjyoung]

Hey guys, what would it take to make jackets like they do in this video? Would an arbor press do the job? How would I make the dies for this?
Also, why do they make cups first, then punch the cups into jackets? Why don't they make the jacket out of the copper disk in one step?

An arbor press only pushes in one direction, you need a double acting press because you have to strip the cup off the drawing die.

They don't make it in one step because the punch would tear through the bottom of the cup.

Barry

[JohnM]

Love to go and look at the Berger J4 factory, I’ve never got close to their quality!

Has anyone thought of using a roller die?

John

[scrapcan]

barry,

any news on your project?

[bohokii]

yea ive been saving my pennies

pre 1982 pennies that is

[Hud]

Barry...I have a set of 30 cal. dies for turning tubing into jackets if you'd like to take a look at them....I'm just down the road from you in Olympia...Hud

[jixxerbill]

Barry...I have a set of 30 cal. dies for turning tubing into jackets if you'd like to take a look at them....I'm just down the road from you in Olympia...Hud

is there anyway u could post pics of the dies, im working on this project myself !!! thank you in advance !!

[scrapcan]

Hud,

I would like to see them also. Might start a new thread though.

[Willbird]

Barry, don't forget about .22 WMR cases, they make nice heavier bullets or perhaps up to .243/.244 diameter.

Keep posting, sir, I'm interested in your progression/progress.

These days there may be a lot more 17HMR than 22WMR :-)....should work just as well but maybe an extra step to neck them up ?

Bill

[Hud]

Guys...I don't know anything about posting pictures but I do know how to take and email pictures if that will work....but I'll do what ever I can otherwise...Hud

[jixxerbill]

Guys...I don't know anything about posting pictures but I do know how to take and email pictures if that will work....but I'll do what ever I can otherwise...Hud

if u had the time to email me the pics hud, it would be most appreciated. my add is jixxerbill@yahoo.com thanks....bill

[Hud]

jixxerbill...I believe 303 Guy is going to post them but a copy will be send to you anyway. Glad to do it...Hud

[scrapcan]

HUD,

pm sent

[jixxerbill]

jixxerbill...I believe 303 Guy is going to post them but a copy will be send to you anyway. Glad to do it...Hud

thank you very much hud for the pics !!! ver helpful... email sent back to you lol thanks...bill

[AF FAL]

Yup, another dead thread revival I know.

Any news on BarryJ's progress? I would think he has enough equipment to put Sierra and Starline out of business by now. I am really interested in this process myself.

By the way anyone have contact info for Larry Blackmon? All his site has is a number, and looks incomplete. I am still deployed so calling isn't so easy.

[barryjyoung]

Hello gentlemen:

Three years ago I started this thread and wanted to make bullet jackets. I still want to make bullet jackets and for the same reasons.

I was gone because the school where I work went nuts on my time. After I got back from China, I was swamped for three years in a row building a brand new degree program at the college from scratch. We now have a CNC Machinist program which I built from the ground up based on industry needs. This was so much work I had zero time for anything else at all in my life. Now that it is running smoothly and successfully, here I am back to make bullets from nothing.

Bohica, I bought a punch press! Yay, and such a deal. $25 in a thrift store. Yay thrift stores. This is a tiny little floor model punch press. It weighs about 500 pounds. I may convert it to hydraulic to get more stroke. This one only moves 1 inch.

The lead extrusion press has the frame welded up and the extrusion die material is in the lathe right now.

Sorry I have been away, duty called and I had to answer.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Barry...I have a set of 30 cal. dies for turning tubing into jackets if you'd like to take a look at them....I'm just down the road from you in Olympia...Hud

Hi Hud: I am sure the dies are gone, but we should still meet sometime. Let me know.

Thank you

Barry

[bohica2xo]

Good to see you back Barry.

A little 1 in stroke press is great for blanking discs, trimming parts etc.

Keep it as is while you lean it's ways, you can always build a hydraulic press.

B.

[barryjyoung]

Good to see you back Barry.

A little 1 in stroke press is great for blanking discs, trimming parts etc.

Keep it as is while you lean it's ways, you can always build a hydraulic press.

B.

Sounds like sage advice as always. Thank you.

Barry

[GerryM]

Let me know how you make out . I'm working on the same prodject.

[Hud]

Barry, I still have the dies plus a hydraulic press you may want to see since your building one. Let me know when you have time for a visit.

Hud

[taminsong]

I wish you could post some pics for us all to see!

[barryjyoung]

Barry, I still have the dies plus a hydraulic press you may want to see since your building one. Let me know when you have time for a visit.

Hud

Hi Hud:

I am off the entire month of August. I am busy tomorrow picking up 6500 pounds of steel, but after that I am ready any time. Today even. Let me know.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I wish you could post some pics for us all to see!

I will, cleaning the workshop right now.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Let me know how you make out . I'm working on the same prodject.

Making jackets or learning to use a punch press?


Barry

[GerryM]

Makeing jackets on a hydraulic punch press. working on dies in carbide
setting up tooling { die shoe} on a 2 ton Dennison press Emailed Caje and Uncle joe for information.
I have some kind of design that will work to a point. I plan on makeing Benchrest
Micro jackets for myself if it works out.

[barryjyoung]

Makeing jackets on a hydraulic punch press. working on dies in carbide
setting up tooling { die shoe} on a 2 ton Dennison press Emailed Caje and Uncle joe for information.
I have some kind of design that will work to a point. I plan on makeing Benchrest
Micro jackets for myself if it works out.

Hi Gerry:

Making carbide dies is way beyond what I am doing right now. Steel probably is too, but eventually will give it a go. What are Micro jackets? Is a 2 ton press enough?

Thank you

Barry

[GerryM]

Hi Barry
Yes the die maker also thought it was a bit more then i needed. So far i have the press wired up and checked over, also a new belt for the pump motor and a good size die shoe, to mount the dies in.
The big thing is finding what sizes to draw too. Caj has one formula. but it's a bit excessive. The other stumbeling block is Material 95/5 guilding metal.
Micro jackets, is a term Ed Shillen used to describe his jackets I borrowed that.
Basicly they are jackets held to a very tight tolerance. Less then .0002 run out at the base .
Precision bullets start with precision jackets.
Part of my process may be on a reloading press also. I'm thinking pinch die trimming and maybe ironing. Later some conversions on reloading press frames.

[barryjyoung]

Yesterday I went and met with a bullet maker from this very forum. It was a very informative day. I am just getting started in this game and meeting with another person interested in smashing metal into other metal to make metal things was extremely informative. I saw for the first time a set of Corbin (David) dies, gas check making dies, jacket ironing dies and a Richard Corbin hydraulic press as well as two Walnut hills, and an older Corbin vertical press.

The hydraulic press was most significant for me since I am in the process of making one. It was not rocket science.

On the way home I stopped at Cabelas and found a rifle I have been searching for for more than 20 years. A Marlin Model 29N .22 pump in really good condition. Then I went through the agonizingly inefficient time wasting process that Cabelas has invented. Waiting 35 minutes in line to be told that I am in the wrong line is not my idea of customer service. I will never purchase another firearm from Cabelas. Having been a FFL holder, I understand the need for paperwork, but that does not mean that my time is available to be wasted. My time is valuable to me, obviously it is not valuable to Cabelas. It took 90 minutes to pay for a rifle plucked from the used racks, fill out the form 4473 and get threatened with the FBI background check as though it would make me bolt three times before being given the bums rush out the front door. I have never been made to feel so unwelcome by a gun dealer. It is amazing to me that anybody buys a gun from such rude, arrogant, uninformed amateurs who are so severely lacking in knowledge about basic firearms theory and practice. If I had not wanted this gun )which was even missing parts so was a parts gun as far as I am concerned) so much, I would have told them to shove it several times.

Anyway, it was a wonderful day because of meeting a very knowledgable bullet maker and getting a gun I have been looking for for a very long time.

So ends my report.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Hi Barry
Yes the die maker also thought it was a bit more then i needed. So far i have the press wired up and checked over, also a new belt for the pump motor and a good size die shoe, to mount the dies in.
The big thing is finding what sizes to draw too. Caj has one formula. but it's a bit excessive. The other stumbeling block is Material 95/5 guilding metal.
Micro jackets, is a term Ed Shillen used to describe his jackets I borrowed that.
Basicly they are jackets held to a very tight tolerance. Less then .0002 run out at the base .
Precision bullets start with precision jackets.
Part of my process may be on a reloading press also. I'm thinking pinch die trimming and maybe ironing. Later some conversions on reloading press frames.

Please let us know what you come up with for determining jacket diameters.

Barry

[jixxerbill]

For what its worth i got the pics for some time ago on this thread and bought a lathe and taught myself a little about it. The results are on youtube under my name jixxerbill. Maybe on making bullet jackets. Thanks to all who helped me. Bill

[GerryM]

I'm don't plan on useing copper tubeing .
Gilding metal disks then drawn into cups and gradually to cylinders of the proper
diameters. Then trimed to length by the pinch off method.
I have to talk quite a bit about the process and tool design and set up with my die maker.
Proto types will be hardened tool steel laped to size. after initial tests the production ones will be laped carbide dies. Tool holder and body design ar still in the design stages.
The object is to make precision dies for benchrest grade jackets.
I will share some of the tech .

[DAVE A]

Hello all, Ive been a member here for a while but this is my first post
Ive been swaging for just over a year now but getting hold of jackets in the UK is a nightmare so I decided to try to make my own, so far I have built a prototype set for my S press and I am particularly proud of a die Ive made that cuts a 25mm disc and forms a 15mm cup in the same operation, Im using 90/10 gilding metal at the moment because I cant get 95/5 but it draws well, I would like to post some pictures but Im having some problems so any help with that would be appreciated,

Dave.