High Power Match Shooting with Cast Bullets- **UPDATE**

[35 Whelen]

Figured it was time for another "High Power Match Shooting with Cast Bullets" update.

For those of you just joining in, I've shot our local HP matches very, very sporadically for several years, but was never able to stick with it long enough to become proficient. I began shooting again in February and decided I would stay with it. I also decided I wanted to see just how well I could do shooting strictly cast bullets. I shoot a "tweaked" K-31 and my bullet of choice is from an NEI 308145 mould. It is a plain-base flat point design cast from air-cooled WW's, weighing 155.5 grs.~, lubed with a home-made lube, and sized .309" in a Lee push-through sizer. The load I settled on is 6.7 grs. of Bullseye with most any large pistol primer I happen to have laying around.

As of my last report my scores from the 80 round matches were: February- 612- 1X; March- 662- 6X; April- 685- 7X. After my April match report Bob S suggested I use the K-31 strippers modified to hold 5 rounds during the rapid fire stages instead of a spare magazine. I did and boy what a huge help! Thanks Bob!

I'd hoped to break the 700 point barrier in May, but I shot a ho-hum 683- 5X and was a little discouraged. I found I was having problems with shifting points of impact when I used my cuff sling during rapid sitting and rapid prone stages. During one of the rapid prone stages, I fired a 10 shot group that measured around 2", but was low and left of the 10-ring. I was sure this was due to the fact that I had upward pressure on the end of the barrel and also because the handguard was making contact with the barrel.
After the May match I relieved the handguard and practiced shooting with a "looser" sling here at the house with a little better results, but still wasn't very encouraged.

June's match was yesterday. There was the usual ribbing about my pedestrian cast loads. One of the Range Masters and fellow competitors informed me that he'd carefully weedeated the grass in front my usual shooting station because he "...was afraid that during the prone strings one of my bullets might strike a blade of grass and bounce back possibly striking me in the head..." Another shooter commented that I was "...the only person he'd ever seen at a 100 yd. match, shooting a bolt rifle, that during rapid fire strings could have two bullets on the way to the target at the same time." :mrgreen:

Things however were a bit more somber at the end of the match when the scores
were totaled and I had fired a 725-16x!!!!:Fire: I was stunned. Even though I placed only about 6th or 7th place out of 14, I was elated. I tied with two other shooters for second high "X" count. First place with X's was 29 and the same guy won the match with a 778/800. We have a few guys that routinely shoot High Master scores.

I guess I finally got the sling tension thing figured out. My rapid sitting went fairly well netting decent scores and a few X's. Then I fired my first rapid prone, flagged my rifle, looked through the scope, and couldn't believe my eyes:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/June09match4.jpg
97-4X!!!

Slow prone was a little disappointing. During the first string, my first five shots were 10's with three of the five being X's. Then the rifle began scattering the shots even throwing one way out in the 6-ring. I did manage another 10, for a 87-4X.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/June09match2.jpg

By this point in the match the temperature was into the 90's. Given the fact that I'd just fired 4 rapid strings, then one prone slow AND left my rifle laying out in the sun on my shooting stool while we scored, I was certain that heat was the problem. So, while scoring the first string of prone slow, I stood my rifle in the rack in the shade to let it cool.

The next prone slow, while not as good as I'd have liked, was somewhat better scoring 93-3X.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/June09match3.jpg

All in all the match was a hoot. I felt all warm and fuzzy knowing I'd out-shot many AR's equipped with $$$$ stainless barrels firing Sierra MatchKing bullets. I must also say that the men with whom I shoot, some of whom browse this forum, (Roy, Pete!) have helped me immensely. They probably don't realize it, but I devour, then file every little bit of advice they give me....except when they tell me I need to buy an AR!:wink:

Ironically, days prior to the match, I received my Sharpshooter Classification Card from the NRA. Hopefully by the end of the year at the latest, I'll have an Expert card.

Hope this stuff helps some of you guys. It just goes to show that some pretty amazing things can be done with cast bullets in the right rifle! Thanks for listening.

35W

[leadman]

Way to go 35 Whelan! A suggestion that might help your score. Load the second cartridge with a little more powder to catch the first boolit so they will only leave one hole in the target!

[Bret4207]

Good on you! I keep saying it's the indian, not the arrow and you're proving my point. Don;t be surprised if another guy shows up with a bolt gun someday!

[NSP64]

Great shooting and keep chasing them, you might catch them! I used to shoot the Mil-Surp match near me with a yugo sks and cast and won the pistol match once. My $300.00 .45 auto, Lee 200gr swc was able to outscore a few Kimbers and S&W .38's:drinks:

I am thinking of getting a 91/30 MN for the rifle portion.

[35 Whelen]

I really appreciate the kind words, guys. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm tooting my own horn (though I am a little proud), as I said in my post, I hope this info and the match results will encourage other shooters to try cast.

35W

[leadman]

Don't worry about tooting your own horn. It is interesting to hear what others are doing and enjoying.
I have been thinking about some type of competitive shooting with cast and a bolt gun. Don't really expect to win anything, but will still enjoy a good time.
See, you are inspiring others with your words and actions!

[72coupe]

Good going Greg!

[frank505]

Excellent shooting, everybody neds to shoot High Power. Finding your natural point of aim in rapid sitting is very important, when you break a shot, the gun should just fall right back to your point of aim. It is one of the neatest feelings when this happens during a rapid fire string, it shows you are on and the score will support that. Also make sure the sling hand is relaxed and stays relaxed during the string, gripping the rifle will not make your scores better.

[dromia]

You have my respect 35W. I've been working on shooting my long range .303" condom average at 800, 900 and 1000yrds with cast boolits over the past couple of years.

I've got the boolit and I've got some loads, just need a bit of refining on alloy hardness/elasticity methinks.

Range time has been my problem, I usually get to shoot at 1000 3-4 times a year but the past couple of years stuff has got in the way.

Shooting full bore cast is real fun and challenge, good luck to you mate and congratulations on your achievements.

Cast boolits need bow to no one. :lovebooli

[Mel-4857]

Great shooting. You should be PROUD. I would like to try something like myself one day. Mel

[35 Whelen]

Thanks again, guys. Personally, I love reading range reports here. Especially when someone gives data and pictures of their targets.
dromia, I CERTAINLY respect you for shooting at such long range. As soon as I feel I've wrung out my K-31 to its maximum potential, I'd like to switch over to one of my Enfield No. 4's.
35W

[GrizzLeeBear]

Nice shooting 35W! Making expert with the old K-31 and cast boolits will be something to be proud of! I shoot and AR for regular HP, but I love shooting surplus bolt guns also. I only have a nice Yugo 24/47 right now, but it is a super shooter with cast. wasn't able to shoot it in any matches last year, but looking forward to shooting it in the Vintage rifle match our club puts on in July. Of course that is all shot on the SR-1 target, so the prone stages are not near as demanding as the regular prone targets. 93-3x on that MR-31 is just fantastic with the K-31 and cast. Way to go!

[Bob S]

I got a little 100 yard practice in today. Here is my standing target:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/standingK31CISM.jpg

It took a few shots to regain the muscle memory, but a 95 ain't too bad considering that I have not shot XC in several years. The rifle is my K31 CISM rifle in 7.62x51 (.308Win) and the old standby load in that cartridge of 311291 with 13.5 grains 2400.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[35 Whelen]

Superb shooting, Bob! This is the kind of posts I enjoy seeing on this site because they're so encouraging.
I'm interested in your rifle. Would you mind providing a few details? I've been toying with the idea of building a heavy barrel High Power rifle and I know where I can get my hands on a K31 action. I also have a couple of Redfield Palma rear/Olympic front sight sets on hand. Is barreling the K31 to 308 difficult? Will the bolt face work as-is? Is it something most any 'smith can handle?
Thanks,
Greg

[jhrosier]

Greg,
You might want to check this out:
http://www.lprgunsmith.com/K31_rifles.htm

I have not had any work done by him, but he is highly recomended by the local highpower shooters.

Jack

[Bob S]

I'm interested in your rifle. Would you mind providing a few details? Greg

?? I thought you were familiar with this one ... I thought I had posted it here before, but maybe not, maybe only on the Swiss sites.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/CISMK315.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/K31/CISMK314.jpg

It a CISM rifle that was built by Grunig and Elmiger on a 1954 military action, circa 1969. I found this one on an auction site about 5 or 6 years ago. No sights; no bolt; no magazine; no butt plate. The idea of a 7.62x51 (.308 Win) K31 intrigued me, as I have a good supply of 7.62 Match ammo left over from my Navy shooting days. No one wanted it with all of those major pieces missing, so I got it for next to nothing; and I had enough bits and pieces to get it back on the firing line. It looked like it had been rode hard and put away wet, then banged around in the back of someboy's pick-em-up truck. I love a challenge. :roll:

The bore is in excellent condition, but the throat has quite a bit of errosion; I found some leading in it, indicating that at least one of the previous owners had attempted to shoot cast in it. I cleaned it up, recrowned the muzzle, added the parts needed, and what you see is what you get. It does not like Lake City Match, and so far, I have not found a satisfactory 600 yard load. I may not ever, given the condition of the throat. It shoots well at short range with bullets seated way out, and it shoots quite well with the old stand-by cast loads. I have a Kreiger 6.5 mm med Palma contour blank and I have spoken to Larry Racine about putting it on and chambering it in 260 Remington. For the time being, though I'm just having fun with it at very short range. There are a couple of local 100-yard reduced course matches around here, I may just have to indulge myself. :mrgreen:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

Answers to other ?s

The rebarreling job is not straight-forward. If you look at Larry's site with the link that Jack posted, you can see how he does it.

The bolt works fine with the .308 family of cartridges with no alterations. I use reformed 284 Winchester brass for all of my 7.5x55 K31 shooting, and that case has the same rim as the 30-06/.308. (but the larger case head to fill the back of the 7.5 chamber). The magazine lips may or may not need to be tweaked to feed relaibly. I didn't have to do a thing to the magazine that I used for this rifle and feeding with .308 was 100% reliable. However, when I first started thinking about going to .260, I tried feeding some .260 dummies, and I did have to tweak the feed lips some to get that to work. After that tweaking, it still feeds the .308 fine.

Rebarreling one of these is NOT inexpensive; you have to REALLY, REALLY want to do it. I can't see that you gain anything at all by rebarreling to .308 or 7.62. There isn't any good surplus 7.62 available anymore, nor is there likely to be in the foreseeable future. You can actually find more surplus 7.5x55 now than 7.62x51, and the 7.5 is great stuff. There is also some good commercial 7.5 ammo that is not overly expensive. If forced to reload, the .308 doesn't have much of an advantage now that good 7.5 x 55 brass is available. The short 7.5 throats in the K31's can present some challenge for cast bullets, but that's not insurmountable.

A K31 barreled in 6.5x55 Swede would be intriguing ... the Swede cartridge fits the bolt face perfectly. I am opting for .260 because if it won't shoot the stash of Lake City Match that I have, at least I can use the brass to make .260 cases!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[35 Whelen]

Well, our July 4th High Power match was great. This annual match is dedicated to a passed gentleman from our area that was instrumental in getting our gun club up and going. Veterans as well as current members of the Armed Forces get special awards and recognition. Most of the guys leave their AR's at home and break out the Garands. We fired the 50 round Nat'l Match course at reduced range and had 20 shooters, a few of whom were firing their first ever match.
One of these was my soon to be son-in-law. He has enlisted in the Marines and will be leaving for basics towards the end of the month. "72coupe" (Roy) loaned him his AR AND loaded ammo for him, and considering he'd hardly fired a rifle in his life, and certainly never fired a High Power match, he did quite well turning in a 383-2X/500. He missed winning the Marksman slot by a mere 5 points. He had a ball and I hope is hooked. We're going to make another match next Sunday so he'll have a couple under his belt prior to entering Basic Training. Roy really helped him out by giving him pointers and helping him with the AR.
Once again, I was the only one there firing cast bullets and I was the butt of some humerous jokes. The best one was after each string of rapid fire when they'd allow a few extra seconds before going forward and scoring the targets so "my bullets would have time to make it to the target".:mrgreen: I shot a 450-6X/500 and was the only competitor in the Sharpshooter class, so obviously, I won it. I missed the top spot in the Expert class by 6 points.
I've worked a little with heavier bullets at higher velocity in my K31, but so far, nothing shoots as well as the little 155 gr. PB-FP at 1100 fps. I'll probably just stick with it for now. If it ain't broke.....

I've ordered another K31 with the intention of making another High Power rifle out of it. I have a Redfield Palma sight I'd like to mount to the next one.

Keep that lead flying!

35W

[mike in co]

on the fourth, at out clubs mil rifle match i fired one of my finn m39's with 314299's at about 1700 fps....iron sights, third place beaten by two match garands .

mike in co

[madsenshooter]

35W, you've done a good job of encouraging me to get my 92/96 Krag out for some of the local 100 yard matches. With its 30 inch barrel, I'd be starting a half foot closer to the target than most of anyone on the line! The load I found for this work is 12.5gr of Blue Dot behind the Belding & Mull 311169. I got a 5 shot group out of it, 3 touching and 2 others touching less than an inch away. Cheated a little, the rifle had a 7 power pistol scope on it, but the 1901 sight ought to keep em in the black for me.

[Dollar Bill]

Good stuff, 35 Whelen! I'm putting together a couple 1903 Springfields and would love to shoot some matches with the boys with the black rifles. The A3 is stock military with a marine corp front sight blade and the 1903 has a good Lyman 48 at the rear and a Lyman 17 up front. Not the same as the Redfield sights but more within my budget. I thoroughly enjoy your posts and will look forward to them in the future.

[35 Whelen]

Figured it was time for another update since the last was in July. I started shootin gmatches in earnest in February. In May, I received my Sharpshooter classification card, so then an Expert classification became my goal. Each change in classification requires, as it was explained to me, three each 80 round matches whose scores average the minimum for the classification sought.
To review, in June I fired a 725-16X which is squarely in the Expert catagory. Our July match was only a 50 round match but I fired a 450/500-5X which too is an Expert score. Due to a family vacation, I missed the August match. I was back in September but the little flat point lead bullets I shoot jammed twice which caused two misses. This dropped my score to 701-4X. Things went better in October and I fired a personal best of 730-8X.
Friday prior to our November match, I recieved a letter from the NRA which contained my Expert card. Originally, my goal was to get my Expert card then switch to a more challenging rifle suh as my 03A3 or one of my No.4 Enfields. But, I may try for my Master classification.
At any rate, todays match went fairly well. I shot another personal best of 732-14X. This placed me at 3rd place for the match. The K31 and the little plain-base NEI bullets continue to shoot better than I. Also, my rapid fire scores still tend to be my highest. I even managed a 97-2X in sitting:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/NovMatch.jpg
Had one pretty decent rapid prone target too:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Targets/NovMatchRapidProne.jpg

The neatest thing about the match was that out of 15 competitors, four were shooting cast. One of the 4-H kids borrowed an 03A3 from "72 Coupe". In it he fired 311299's and fired some impressive targets.

I'm in on the Swiss 180 Group Buy and hope these bullets shoot well.

35W

[RU shooter]

Outstanding 35W where did the 7 come from in the R. prone:kidding: after reload? Keep at it that masters card is within reach.


Tim

[35 Whelen]

Outstanding 35W where did the 7 come from in the R. prone:kidding: after reload? Keep at it that masters card is within reach.


Tim


Haha! Wish I could say that 7 was a flyer, but my cousin was behind and me saw the whole thing through a spotting scope. That was the first shot I fired in that string.
I'm still having sling tension issues. My barrel has upward pressure at the end of the forearm so I have to be careful how I use the sling. Right now, the sling tension issue is what's keeping my scores from being higher. Slow prone is my worst position presumably. It usually takes about 12-15 shots before I start putting them in the 9 and 10 ring. I have to fiddle with sling tension.
35W

[Bob S]

That's good shooting, Greg


But, I may try for my Master classification.
35W

You can do it. I got my Master classification in 1973 with an 03A3 using cast bullets exclusively at 200 and 300 yards. I had to go to the Sierra 168 grain International for 600, though.

Resp'y,
Bob S.