Have you guys seen this?

[PatMarlin]

"Both are breech-loading, firing with loose black powder and bullet or a brass cartridge"

Or by using an "old-time" rolled paper cartridge, where the cartridge is inserted in the chamber and as the chamber is closed, a knife edge on the breech cuts the end off. Apply a percussion cap to the nipple, pull the hammer back, pull the trigger and KABOOM! Accurate and fun to fire.

Wha Tha Heeeck? Never seen this before...

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=196482

[floodgate]

Pat:

These are the bottom-end Italian-made Sharps PERCUSSION replicas (they WON'T take a brass-cased cartridge; Gary O. sometimes gets off the track on his descriptions, like "reloadable", "non-corrosive" military ammo that turns out to be Berdan-primed and corrosive). One problem with most of these - and with the originals - is that used with paper cartridges tied onto the "ring-tail" .54 bullet (like Lyman #557489) each time the knife on the breechblock snips the tail off the cartridge, they will dribble a bit of powder each time down into the lever spring recess in the forend, and eventually you will get an ugly "Ka-BOOM!" that will wreck the forend (and maybe your left hand). The better Sharps percussion replicas have a guard plate at the back of the forend that prevents this. Check out the Dixie versions, and - of course - the top-of-the-line Shiloh and C. Sharps replicas.

There's a better way to make the paper cases, just chamber length (nothing to cut off), with a nitrated tissue-paper base that the cap flash goes right through. These ARE a lot of fun to shoot (I had an original CW Sharps back in the early '60's I shot quite a bit with loose powder and the ring-tail bullet, though I thought my CW Starr had a more effective gas-seal).

floodgate

[shooter575]

Yup,the Sharps rifle and carbine model 1859 &1863 were used during the C/W Union bought over 85,000 of them.The rebs even made a copy,the "Roberson" sharps.They used a fine colth then switched to paper cartridge.[nitrated] Boolits were tied to the paper. Uses a winged musket cap.They can be fired with loose powder also.The brass cartridge can be used [still with the seprate cap] But not having a extractor you will need to use a cleaning rod to knock out the case.
Four companys have made repops over the years.Shiloh,Pedersoli and IAB. Garrett Arms also made them some years ago.Shiloh and Garrett are the best ones.
A lot of N-SSA skirmishers shoot them.Many reinactors use them for blanks also. I have a shiloh that will shoot.It is not real user friendly to some one shooting southpaw though.I have lots of info on making paper cartridges if any one is interested

[quigleysharps4570]

From SG...I'd pass in a minute.

[jh45gun]

Never bought anything from SG. My brother has and had good luck so far but I would not trust any of his BS on how he describes things. Brother just got a good deal on a couple of Horton xbows for him self and a friend that were a decent price with a good return policy if need be I told him to check that part of the deal out first. :)

[PatMarlin]

Oh so that is an authentic reproduction.

How do you use a cap and a brass cartridge? Are we talkin' about some kind of .45 cal case? But they didn't have primers back then so how does that work?

I'm having trouble picturing how this would work. Maybe I can find some pics on the elsewhere.

[omgb]

The SG Sharps is an IAB. These are absolute ********* The Pedersoli is an excellent copy and functions perfectly. Great barrels too. Of course, the Shiloh is the top, a real piece of artwork. I have a Pedersoli and once upon a time, traded into an IAB. That was a usless wall hanger. The parts fit was 3rd world, the wood was cheap and the barrel was over sized and rough as a cob. The breech leaked gas badly after three shots. The main spring was almost too weak to fire a cap reliably. I traded it off to a guy who had one and needed parts. The pedersoli is alive and kicking. It shoots almost as good as my cartridge Sharps and is dead-on period correct.

SG has great deals on ammo. I've bought their Korean '06 many times and in fact, have about 3,000 rounds of it right now. They have said at times that it was and then that it wasn't corrosive. I think all of it is so I give my barrels the H2O douch after shooting and before hitting them with Ed's Red. I bought 1,000 rounds of CZ 7.65X54R a couple of years ago and that has been lackluster. About 10% don't fire. I just pull the bullets and use them in handloads. At $50 for 1M rounds, it was still a deal. Last week I took delivery of 600 rounds of 8mm surplus. It was $60 delivered to my door. The bullets were all lead and copper, no steel, the cases were bright and shiny brass and so far, test rounds go bang when fired. I'm :)

I also bought a couple of Swiss Petromax lanterns from them @ 2 for $199. They came in a great wooden case complete with extras. That was a deal too. If you've never had a Petromax, you don't know what a good lantern is. With the addition of a small shield that can be had from Brytelite, these lanterns can be run on anything from gasoline to olive oil. On K1, the prefered fuel, they put out the equivilant of 400 watts of light per lantern. It really is about three times the light of a double mantle Coleman.

Any way, SG is OK for some things but as mentioned by others, Caveot Emptor when it comes to the guns.

[PatMarlin]

I'm really interested in the type of rifle, but not buying a cheap one from SG. I wonder how much junk gets sold on the internet like that. Probably a lot.

[floodgate]

omgb:

Thanks for the verification on quality of the IAB's; matches what I have heard about them

Pat:

I think the "brass case" statement is just a mistake on SG's part; they were probably thinking of the cartridge model. If the IAB uses a chamber with the "bouching" - as Sharps called it - there's no practical way to use a brass case (like a rimless Maynard) in a percussion Sharps chamber.

jh45gun:

"...decent price with a good return policy if need be."

Yeah, SG's return policy is fine, no telephone call or OK needed, just sent the item back with the return slip on the back of the invoice. I just sent back a battery charger; nothing wrong with it, but I had ordered the wrong one and will re-order the one I want. And if you have questions about an item description, a phone call or e-mail will get you a quick answer. In spite of occasional glitches, I do a lot of business with them.

floodgate

[floodgate]

Shooter575:

"I have a Shiloh that will shoot.It is not real user friendly to some one shooting southpaw though."

If you're a "lefty", take a look at Classic Rifle Co. <crifles@bendbroadband.com>. They make a replica Sharps '74 cartridge rifle in LEFT HAND configuration. No info on price, and I don't know if they would make a percussion ('59 or '63) version, but it might be worth asking.

floodgate

[KCSO]

15 shots and they will leak gas at the breech. The Percussion sharps design needs close tolerance to work well and even the originals would leak a little. A friend ofmine has one of these and we ended up converting it to a ctg. gun.

[shooter575]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/shooter575/sharpscartridges.jpg



Here is a pics of sharps type of ammo that is used by skirmishers.Long paper cartridge is orgional type.The breechblock cuts off the tail as it is closed.The short paper one is just droped in the chamber.Nothing to cut off.I use the lube to hold the paper to the boolit.The 2 other types of plastic tubes are used to hold the loose powder and act as a handle to seat the boolet into the barrel.The yellow one is just twisted loose and the powder falls in to chamber.The black one is a two piece design.You use the plunger to seat the boolit.Pull er out and the powder falls in..Note barrel must be pointed down for this to work.The boolit is the copy of the orgional ringtail sharps out of a Rapine mould..54 at 490 gr.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/shooter575/sharpsbreech.jpg

2nd pic is the breechblock.Note the flame must make two 90 deg turns to reach the chamber.The gas check on this Shilo is starting to wear.Does not leak yet though.See the stains.This one has had around 3,000 rounds through it.There are guys making replacement gas checks for them.Some from stainless,some from amco bronze.Both a bugger to machine.One thing nice about the Shilo is it does not have the floating chamber that the Italian ones have.They are a PITA.I have modfied mine to use a standard O ring to keep the check tight to the barrel breech.
I have shot 75 rounds without cleaning anything other than a patch down the barrel before.One thing about shooting one of these is you got to be able and like to tinker with em or you will not be happy.Another thing the shilo chamber will hold 80 gr.The Italian ones hole a lot less.50 gr I have been told.

[shooter575]

Floodgate,When I say not user friendly I should state that in the compition I do,offhand rapid fire it is just takes me too long to reload.I can get off a round every 25 seconds or so.With a Smith carbine I can do about 18.The fastest one for me is the Gallager at about 12.Breaking targets with the clock ticking every second counts.
I am right handed with only a good left eye.So my left hand is just not as fast.I would of goten rid of this rifle but it shoots sooo good.We must shoot approved orgional type C/W weapons so even a left handed version would not be a option.

[PatMarlin]

I see now. Thanks for the pics and explanation.

Beautiful rifle Jim..! Who does your nails?.. :mrgreen:

[shooter575]

Heehe Pat,A buddy of mine was holding the block.As I was taking the pic I made a remark about ths hands.My wife had just made us dinner and he did the dishes.I do not think I could ever get mine that clean.:wink: Wait till he sees this.

[floodgate]

Jim:

My old CW New Model 1863 came with a worn and burnt-out gas-check in the breechblock. My gunsmith buddy tried to build it up with braze and re-machine it, but we never did get it to seal. Stopped by Martin B. Retting's in Culver City one day, and got a brand-new CW surplus block, still in the grease (this was 1962 or '63 - 100 yrs later!). We made a split puller and yanked the "bouching" out of the chamber, remachined the back face, and tapped it back in until the block would just close (Sharps recommended the armorers do this any time one came in for overhaul). But like KCSO says, it was good for about 15 shots before sooting up and starting to stick again. Better than the 1843 side-lever Hall-North carbine (one of the re-rifled "Hall Scandal" arms I later found out, after I had sold it - ARRGH!); that took 3 or 4 shots to soot up enough to seal, then about ten more shots and it would freeze up solid. Had a Smith, but never got around to shooting it; and a 5th Model Burnside that was actually pretty effective (ask me some time whether the Burnside had an extractor!). A couple of CW Maynards, one of which I shot until the one case I had fell apart, but the Starr was the best of the lot - except for that Enfield-style "broken-back" stock with no cheek support. The Starr had a two-piece breechblock: a little swinging flap backed up by a contoured block, a circular V-groove on the block face that mated with a sharp-edged "V" around the chamber. Wipe RIG or Vaseline into the groove every ten shots or so and it would seal 100%. I sure feel lucky to have had the chance to own, fix up, shoot and pass along to others these wonderful old-timers, back when one could afford them and bring them back to life. Gotta get my 26-shot Evans New Model Sporting Rifle back together and shooting, then pass it to a friend who is writing these up. Someday, of course, our great-grandkids will be saying, "Jeez, Gramps, you actually OWNED and SHOT a Winchester '94!?!"

"Ol' Floodgate"

[shooter575]

The gascheck plate on mine is tight,but can be removed with a little screwdrider wiggleing it out of the breech.The ring on the backside was eroding away so I ground it down a bit and took it to the hardware store and got some O rings that just kept it proudr enough to make a tight seal.Got over 500 rounds on it so far.
Would sure like to have a 1st model Maynard.I can see with that tang sight.The barrel sight on the later models with that hammer in the way just wont work for me.[another left eyed thing]You still got yours?I can get cases for ya if you need them.
A buddy shot his Hall some.Said he needed a good glove,long sleeves and face mask.Burnsides are cool.That icecreem cone brass is real fragile.I know a few that are shooting them with rb.
What I would like is a Spencer.That drop in centerfire conversion,some cut down 50/70 brass and fire away.They were real cheep till that came out...Oh well. Another on I realy like is the Ballard.Or a split breech RB...or the Ball...or........

[Jetwrench]

omgb,
Are the lanterns really worth $199 for 2? Tell me more because he still has them. Jetwrench

[Buckshot]

.................I have to pipe up about the IAB made Sharps rifles. Are there negatives to them? Yes, and the worst is inconsisant quality. Unlike most other gunmakers, the IAB is a consortium of smaller 'job shop' type places that make parts. These are brought together and then complete firearms are created from them.

So unlike buying a Pedersoli or a C Sharps to name a couple where you can expect a pretty well done and finished rifle, IAB sells to many different retailers. The point here is that these retailers can spec a PRICE or a quality. I bought mine from EMF many years ago and was able to select one of the 6 that EMF's inhouse gunsmith had gone over.

This was in 45-70, and is now a 45-90. The only issue I ever had with mine was the original chamber, which had an unrealisticly long throat. I could never get it to shoot accurately. Several people described it as having a "Lawyer's Chamber". I had my gunsmith rechamber it to 45-90 and it's a shooting Essobee.

The barrel is a very well done piece of steel. The bore is smooth and right on at .450x.458". The action, buttplate, lockplate, and lever sport a very brilliant colorfull color case, unlike many others I see that are just shades of gray. I've never had any problems with the set triggers or the lockwork. The breechblock is exceedingly well fitted and operates smoothly.

The buttstock and forend are as well fitted as a person could ask for. The buttstock is nicely figured walnut while the forend is plainer walnut. Checkering is well done and neat.

Now having described mine, one of my shooting buddies who is a SASS member bought one for their so called long range side matches. His was in 45-70, and while his chamber was obviously better then mine originally was he had issues with his set triggers. In fact they had to be exchanged. The first ones were soft.

I saw another at the range that was sold by Traditions, and when I first saw it and was allowed to handle it, I thought it was a C Sharps product. It had the Hartford barrel coller and was a superbly crafted rifle with an apparently flawlessly polished tapered octagon bbl (mine is a 28" straight taper). As it turned out the guy who owned it was back shooting it again as he also had to have the triggers re-done.

The only appearance issue I have with mine is the 1863 percussion hammer they used for both percussion and cartridge rifles at the time I bought mine. They now have the 1874 style hammers for the cartridge versions which I personally find more appealing.

While excersizing the rifle after getting it back as a 45-90 I fired some number of pretty hellacious loads out of it without a whimper. I'd have no problem shooting against anyone with a Pedersoli or C Sharps with comparable sights and ammunition. Lest it sound like I'm pimping for IAB, I'm not. As I said, they do have consistancy issues but basic construction has no flies on it, and I think what the distributer and retailer demand have more to do with it then the manufacturer.

..................Buckshot

[omgb]

Buckshot said it all when he put the finger on IAB consistancy. I'll leave that there.

As to Petromax lanterns.... What would you give to have a lantern that gave off three to four times the light of a Coleman and would burn any fuel you could come up with? Kerosene is infinitely safer to use than Coleman fuel, especially on boats and other confined places. The Petromax is designed to burn Kerosene but will burn any combustable fuel put in it including salad oil. It has two different pre-heaters that can either be used one or the other, both or neither depending on the fuel. To burn gas or Coleman fuel you will need to purchase the base plate from Brytelite. In the event of a mantle blow out, the plate keeps the flame from burning through the base and into the tank. With K1 or salad oil, that isn't a concern due to the high flash point.

In my Petromax lanterns, I've burned diesel, K1, Coleman, pump gas, benzine, reclaimed paint thinner, turpentine, K1/Coleman mix, salad oil, salad oil/coleman mix and alcohol. To burn the latter, I had to change over to a different orifice. These lanterns really are the ticket for versitility and for light output. New, the retail for about $135 ea for the lantern and a top reflector. A case is about $30.00 more. The deal at SG is for two lanterns, a wooden case, fuel bottels, extra mantles and some other goodies. It's more than good.

I took both of my lanterns and added the following: The new base plate for multi-fuel, new, rain-proof shatter proof globes, side reflectors, extra mantels and shader valves so that I can use a bicycle pump to pressurize the lanterns. That saves a tone of arm work. Brutelite also has a "O" ring pump assemply that makes pumping much easier too. I have that as well but prefer to use the bicycle pump or a CO2 cartridge.

So to answer your question as to whether or not they are worth it.... i say yes because I like the extra light and I like the multi-fuel capabilities.

[floodgate]

Jim (575):

Sounds like we've covered a lot of the same ground over the years. No, the Maynards are long-gone, as are the other CW carbines, the Hall and many others. I do, however, still cherish my early "JM" Ballard No. 5 "Pathetic". It was a wreck when I got it, but was all there except sights and wiping rod. Had been cut down to "lady's size", with a 12" pull, set back from one of the big .44's and rechambered for 44-40. It has since been recut to .45-70, new buttstock, sporting tang sight and a "health check" from Cody and shot nicely in our mini-Quigley match last fall. The mainspring has gone "soft" and I need to get another. Outside just cleaned up and left with "honest wear" finish. That one will stay, for sure!

The Burnside worked fine with the heavy brass cases and OK with the plastic ones Dixie used to sell. The "ejector" I mentioned uses the little floating piece in the back of the block that carries the nipple and flash-hole; it moves fore and aft about 1/16", and when you drop the block, a little extension of the trigger plate gives it a "kick" to break the case loose. Found this out when I tried to use the spare one I had gotten for parts, and found the previous owner had figured that was a mis-fit, and had ground off the extension even with the block recess!

Never had a Spencer, due to lack of RF ammunition back then. But SWMBO got me a copy of Ray Marcot's GREAT book for my 75th last month, and now I'm "hot to trot", checking on the new CF replicas. Anyone here seen one of these? Christopher Spencer was quite a guy, and we both loved that photo of him in his 80's, ready to fly with his son in an early float-plane. Built and used steam autos, and - along the way - invented the automatic screw machine sold by Billings & Spencer.

There's so much HISTORY in all this wonderful stuff!

floodgate