All my new loads lead my barrel?!?

[Gunslinger]

I finally got my xl650 up and running... what a nice piece of machinery! So I was eager to load up some rounds.

Bullet: 9mm (sized to .357) 120gr TC (gun slugged at .356")
Primer: Remington SP
Lube: RCBS bullet lube - the green stuff.
Powder: Vv N320 - 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 gr (4.1gr listed as max in the book)
Alloy: about 80% range lead, 10% ww and 10% Lino.

I made 25 rounds of each of the abovelisted loads and shot them from a stand to see which load gave the best groups. I cleaned the barrel between every 25 shots to keep track of which, if any, loads would lead...... they all did :veryconfu, terrible leading from breach to muzzle, long silver smears.

I know the alloy is not gonna give me any awards, but it was what I had at hand. The alloy is not on the softer side. I didn't have any chrono, but comparisons from burn rate charts etc. my guesstimate is that the 4.2gr load did not exceed 1100 fps.

Where in the process did I screw up??

The loads leaded equally - no difference between low and high end loads.

[Leftoverdj]

You give the bullets time to age harden?

[waco]

maybe try water dropping, and or different lube

[fredj338]

WHAT pistol? Smaller bores are more prone to leading issues than larger bores IME. SOme bbls. are rough & will lead w/ any alloy, any size, any lube. You can try switching lubes or powders (some uberfast powders run hot & cause more leading), I find best results w/ lead bullets in smaller bores buy going med. burners like Unique, Universal, WSF, maybe VV330 if you like VV powders. You can try a harder alloy, range lead is pretty soft, so mix 50/50 w/ lino. You can try water dropping, but IMO, 10% ww isn't enough to get good hardening. Your bbl. may not like lead bullets, it does happen.

[Dennis Eugene]

I'll stick up for the lube. I use RCBS pistol lube almost exclusively and have basicaly zero leading problems with it. Altho expensive RCBS lube is a good lube. Dennis

[leftiye]

I'd say maybe a better lube. I like Unique in a 9mm. It sounds like your alloy oughta be soft too. I use 50/50 WW/pure lead, heat treat if you have to (gives BHN 22 - 28, 14 when air cooled). No problems to over 1000 fps. so far. Carnauba Red lube used.

[Gunslinger]

Yes the bullets have age hardened for 4-5 weeks.

The range lead in our beam contains about 30% cast - our cast which means the range lead contains a fair amount of lino and WWs.

The gun is a Tanfoglio Limited Custom. Before I started casting I bought some boolits from my now fellow caster. They were made from 3-1 ww-lino, sized to .357 and with a lube consisting of vaseline, bees wax and parafin - equal amounts. They were the most accurate bullets I've ever had through my gun.. and ZERO leading.

It's not that I love VV powder... it is just so much easier to come by than american powders, and it is easy to work with.

I think I covered all the basics pretty well. From what I've read here and in the lyman book... everything seems to be in order. I just can't wrap me head around the fact that every load I developed leads my barrel...

[mdi]

Tough one! I would change one thing at a time to determine the problem area. I have used a similar lube as your friend's in my handguns with no leading. I also size all my boolits .002" over bore size for accuracy and no leading, maybe your gun will like .003" overbore, as long as the rounds chamber. Lastly I would change the alloy because I've used everything from range recovery (lots of 22 lr and very soft) to straight linotype and with proper sized boolits I get no leading, although in your gun it may make a difference.

[Larry Gibson]

The problem is the alloy. The bullets your friend gave you were much harder. They were 3/1 lino/WW and the alloy you're casting is probably 70% lead with maybe some antimony thrown in. I shoot a lot of similar range lead and find it is pretty soft. The BHN of your freinds bullets was probably 18+ and the BHN of your range alloy is probably 8-9 BHN. I also find that adding 2% tin to range lead helps the lead and antimony blend into a better alloy. I regularly cast this alloy into pistol/revolver bullets (including the Lee 356-120-TC for use in my 9mm's) and shoot it to 1200 fps with zero leading. Suggest you add 2% tin and try it.

I haven't used RCBS Green(pistol) lube in many years but do not recall any particular problems with it. I use mostly Javelina or any of the commercial NRA 50/50 lubes including the RCBS "Rifle" lube on all cast bullets from 200 to 2500 fps. I'd also suggest a change in lube to a NRA 50/50 type.

Larry Gibson

[243winxb]

My guess is you need a harder bullet. 24 BHN is needed for 34,000 PSI You could heat treat the bullets in an oven/Water drop. Plus you also need at least 2% tin minimum in your alloy. Hope i did the math right. I don't have the Lee chart in front of me that comes with the hardness tester.

[243winxb]

I bought some boolits from my now fellow caster. Was it a tumble lube type bullet? All the lube grooves on the Lee may give a weak bullet base, easy for the high pressure to get past the bases first groove compared to a conventional type bullet base. In other words, the bearing surface does not support the base of a TL like on a normal cast bullet

[runfiverun]

3-1 ww to lino is 3+3+3+12 ='s 21 antimony divided by 4 ='s just over 5% antimony
your mix is 4 parts of whatever plus 1 part ww's plus 1 part lino
so you got 3 + 12 + 1/3rd at 6 so 2 so 17 divided by lets say 20 lbs ='s about 1 % antimony.
try water dropping your alloy.

[mroliver77]

He is adding WW AND lino to his range scrap. It still sounds like it could be too soft. I have lots of soft alloy compared to antimonial alloy so I mix to use the least amount of antimony possible within reason. This requires water dropping or heat treating my boolits most times. I agree with Larry that tin can make a big difference in shootability of alloys.
Stay with it and keep us updated on your progress.
Jay

[mroliver77]

runfiverun,
I tried that and my head hurt. I am in rototiller mode today not thiunking mode. :) I thought it would come to more antimony than that.
Jay

[NSP64]

With a softer alloy you are probably getting loading swagging. That is where you load the boolit and the case sizes the boolit down. Small boolit running fast down the barrel will lead good.

[anachronism]

Pull a bullet from one of your loaded rounds & measure it. Chances are, the bullet got swaged down under bore dimension when you seated it, or (most likely) when you taper-crimped it. Leading starting at the chamber suggests a sizing problem.

[243winxb]

you are probably getting loading swagging. The taper crimp die can be a problem also if over done, or if a Lee that tapers and rolls in the same die, they can be out of specification, or a Lee FCD.

[runfiverun]

sorry oliver: i have done it that way for so long it takes me longer to type it then to just think the numbers.
they seem to come out fine on the hardness tester too. it's like looking at a bucket of ww's in a shop and knowing just how much useable lead you're gonna get from it.

[fredj338]

Yes the bullets have age hardened for 4-5 weeks.

The range lead in our beam contains about 30% cast - our cast which means the range lead contains a fair amount of lino and WWs.

The gun is a Tanfoglio Limited Custom. Before I started casting I bought some boolits from my now fellow caster. They were made from 3-1 ww-lino, sized to .357 and with a lube consisting of vaseline, bees wax and parafin - equal amounts. They were the most accurate bullets I've ever had through my gun.. and ZERO leading.

It's not that I love VV powder... it is just so much easier to come by than american powders, and it is easy to work with.
.
I'm betting your alloy is just too soft. You are guessing that your range scrap has 30% cast & then you have no idea what those are. I treat range scrap as almost pure lead. You'll need to get 50% lino into it & then you can water drop if you need to. If you are short on lino, go 50% scrap, 25% ww & 25% lino.

[Gunslinger]

Thanks for all the great answers [smilie=s:. Can't remember who wrote what, but I remember the most....

There is tin in the mix about 3%. The bullet I got from my friend was cast by the same mold these are - normal lube groove.

I do remember some lead shavings while reloading. I'll try belling the cases a tad more , ease up on the crimping and seat the boolit a little higher for less pressure....

I did fear it being the alloy. It's just the consensus is that boolit size is often the culprit when it comes to leading... so I figured it was okay. The starting load by the book at 3.8gr took me by surprise when they turned into silver in my barrel.

I'll try everything to get them to work, cause the darn thing is I cast 7000 boolits (3 different kind) from this alloy [smilie=b:

Luckily they will probably do fine as light .38 special loads!

[mroliver77]

If they are not lubed you can still heat treat them. It is not that big of a deal. I sure would try.
J

[Gunslinger]

Yes but I just don't think using my kitchen oven for that would be such a great ideea... and I don't have en old throw-away oven lying around...

[mroliver77]

It will not hurt your oven. The pan you use should not be used for food again but there are no fumes or such to contaminate your oven.
Jay

[mroliver77]

It will not hurt your oven. The pan you use should not be used for food again but there are no fumes or such to contaminate your oven.
Jay

[leadman]

Try heat treating the alloy you currently have in the oven. Remove any lube on the boolits.
I set my oven to 400' and when it reachs that put the boolits in a container I made out of 1/4" square screen and leave them for about an hour. I then have a 5 gallon bucket handy and remove the boolits from the oven and immediately drop the container in the bucket.
You will be surprised how hard even a marginal alloy can become.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yup, add 2% tin and water drop your alloy , I bet this will stop your leading problem, if you are sizing .357 for the .356 grove. IMHO. Good Luck

[truckmsl]

Pull a bullet from one of your loaded rounds & measure it. Chances are, the bullet got swaged down under bore dimension when you seated it, or (most likely) when you taper-crimped it. Leading starting at the chamber suggests a sizing problem.

Definitely do this. You may only think you know the final diameter of your boolits until you do as suggested.