38, Bullseye and Swaged HBWC.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A year or so I was having a hard time of it and didn't have my reloading press set up. I rang the guy who reloads for the target pistol club and asked him to reload a couple hundred 38s to fire out of my Rossi for a cowboy match.

I said I would supply the 160 RNFP Commercial cast and polymer coated bullets and I would pay him the normal rate. I figured that he'd have to fiddle about with the seating die (I was going to send mine along so his fiddling would have been minimised and the saved bullets would offset the inconvienence, I also said I would drop the brass, etc into him the next day). He obviously wasn't listening and turned up the next morning with 200 reloads, 38HBWC and 2.4 Gns Bullseye. He seemed oblivious to everything I had said earlier.

I put them aside and used them for Bullseye, firing the last 50 out of my S&W Model 64 today.

They seemed to be a hot load and recoiled heavily (for a 38Bullseye load). I saved the last one and put it in my fob pocket.

When I got home I disassembled the load and weighed the charge, 2.1Gns.

I always thought that 2.8-2.9 Gns was the load and I have fired many thousands of these, but the ones loaded by the club guy were decidedly healthy. Maybe it was the softness of the swaged bullets getting good obturation.

Any ideas

[elk hunter]

Four Fingers,

If the HBWC's were seated flush with the case mouth the pressure would be greater than with the same weight bullet seated out. I'm not sure that I could tell the difference when shooting them. I loaded and shot thousands of the 148 grain HBWC's with 2.5 grains of bullseye with never a problem.

[HeavyMetal]

How sure are you your reloading guy is using Bullseye?

I'd have some concerns if I made a request, such as you did, and got the results you did!

In this case I think I'd go over and try to find out exactly which powder he was putting in those case's.

2.5 to 2.9 grains of Bullseye should not have any perceptable difference in"Feelable" recoil as long as "payload" weight is reasonably close.

Could these HBWC's weighed 200 grains?

[2shot]

I have shot 2.0 grains of Bullseye with Reminton 148 gr. HBWC out of my S&W Model 14 in 50 ft gallery center fire matches. With this load the recoil is LESS that firing my S&W Model 41 w/ CCI standard velocity 22 longrifle. Seeing as how the 41 is heavier than the 14 you would think that the opposite would be true but it's not, at least with that load of 2.0 of BE. And in shooting NRA Bullseye Matches where you fire rimfire back to back with centerfire it's easy to make the recoil comparison. I have also sho 2.7 , 3.0 and 3.2 grains of BE under the 148 grain Remington HBWC in NRA Bullseye Matches and never had a hard recoil from any of those loads. I would think that HeavyMetal is on the right track as far as maybe the powder isn't Bullseye or it's a heavier HBWC than 148 gr. Obviously something ain't right here.

2shot

[Wayne Dobbs]

It either wasn't loaded with Bullseye or the loads in question were loaded with a lot more than the 2.4 grain charge you stated. Given the fact that the guy didn't listen in the first place, I would be suspicious that he fouled up the loads that he did do for you.

[MtGun44]

2.1 of BE is a VERY light load. I would guess you had more powder in most of them,
or it is something much more powerful than BE, which I would have zero idea what it
might be. I use Titegroup but it works out almost identically to BE for me.

Bill

[beagle]

Amen on the light load. That's not hardly enough to snap granny's garter in a .38. Think I was loading 2.8-2.9 for a friend in his M52 Smith and it functioned all right and was accurate. I wonder just what powder he was using if he weighed out 2.1 grains...unless some adherred to the walls of the case when he pulled the bullet and left some of the lube in there???

Heck 2.5 grains was what I used for hunting rabbits and squirrels in my .38 when I was in high school and destitute./beagle


2.1 of BE is a VERY light load. I would guess you had more powder in most of them,
or it is something much more powerful than BE, which I would have zero idea what it
might be. I use Titegroup but it works out almost identically to BE for me.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

The guy is a long term bullseye shooter and I think the fact that anyone shoots anything else proably didn't compute. The loads were very consistent in recoil in both my Model 14 and Model 64. I fired some Winchester 158Gn LRN factory loads as well to get rid of them and they recoiled more, but not by much. I think given the consitency throughout the 200 rounds (they were very accurate as well) the charge I weighed would have been indicitative of the others in the lot. It may have been AS30 (Clays I think you call it ov er there).

[cajun shooter]

The standard PPC load is 2.7 Bullseye behind the Speer 148 HBWC. That is a light load. I load for a friend in CAS until he has all his equipment with 3.2 grs of Clays behind 160 RNFP. It is also a regular load and not a barn burner. Something is amiss here Watson!!

[jdgabbard]

You know, I've run into something similar to this.

I loaded up some Lee 158 SWCs with 4.0g of Unique once, and the loads were extremely mild in my Model 65, and mild enough in my SP101. The boolits were cast of straight WW, and the primer was CCI small pistol.

About a month later I loaded up the same boolits, only of WW +0.5% Tin, over 4.2g of Unique with the same lot of CCI small pistol primers, and the result were vastly different. In the Model 65, the loads were moderate. In the SP101 they were VERY brisk, in fact somewhat stouter then the .38 spl +P loads with J-Bullets. In fact, I wondered if for some reason these were not a little higher in pressure then the loads I use for carry.

Now while 0.2g is not much of a difference, and that load is not close to maximum for that boolit and powder combo, I wondered if the difference alloy combined with this was enough to result in the big difference in felt recoil.

Now for the kicker, that load proved to be the most accurate load with that boolit for my Model 65, resulting in a 6 shot group of .8 inch. However, it is reserved for that gun alone. I regularly shoot magnum loads in that gun, and in snub magnums. However, that load in my SP101 (which is the .38spl model) hurts the hand. Which is something I don't experience in Magnum loads often. Its funny how one load can act one way in one gun, and the same load acts completely different in another.

[9.3X62AL]

The swaged HBWCs available commercially all have loading data caveats about exceeding 800 FPS due to possibility of leaving a skirt stuck in the bore. They are wonderfully accurate, but I never ran them much past 750 FPS, usually with 2.7 grains of Bullseye or 2.8-3.0 grains of WW-231. It has been 20 years or so since I messed with them very much, though.

I'm prepared to believe that a warmer load could REALLY seal the case mouth and throat with that skirt, and extract every bit of power possible from whatever powder charge was used. I've had "anomalous" recoil or muzzle bark on loads from time to time--safe loads, just unexpected subjective results. I don't recall that occurring with HBWCs, but it has been a while--and my memory has moments or clarity with long epochs of cloudiness, let's just say.

[pjh421]

This is exactly why I will not shoot other people's reloads. I don't mean to be rude; I'm sure everyone here is more than competent. I just keep noticing these anecdotes over the years from acquaintances, here, other places, etc. concerning reloaded ammo that is supposed to be one thing and winds up being something else. If you didn't load it yourself, you just don't really know what's in it.

Paul

[jdgabbard]

If you didn't load it yourself, you just don't really know what's in it.

Paul

Exactly.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Norma;;y my rule, but after my late wife took ill, I didn't have the time or opportunity to load for awhile. Shot off a lot of factory stuff and a few hundred reloads from the club armourer and the 200 from this guy. He loads in excess of 1000 a week for various memebers, no other probs with his stuff reported by other members. I'm back on track with the reloading, but the casting is a biy slower getting going.

[MtGun44]

I load 3.0 Clays (which is apparently AS30) under 158 gr SWC and it shoots very nicely
in most of my .38 Spls. I'd call it near normal .38 Spl load, from memory. Maybe
2.1 of Clays would be an OK load, I think it would still be pretty light, but maybe along the
same power as the old 2.7 or 2.8 of BE.

OK - I went to Hodgdon's site and they show min load for .38 Spl with 148 HPWC as 2.3 Clays
with a vel of 784 fps.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks MtGun44, that's interesting. Scrabbling through my ammo cabinet the other night and I found 600 odd Federal Screaming Eagles or whatever the el cheapo red box ammo is. I found that this stuff was pretty good through my Rossi 92 (the rifle in the Avitar), even sfter knocking the points back a bit on the grinder (small flatnose). They will keep the 64 out of mischielf for a while.

I have an old Ideal 38 HBWC mould, I must try the AS30 with that boolit. I bought a swag of AS30 real cheap, it is good in shotgun, but I haven't used it in pistols yet.

[MtGun44]

Four Fingers,

You will find that Clays (which apparently is your AS30, I am not at all certain of this,
so PLEASE verify the data) is incredibly clean burning in pistols. I have literally seen
new brass look shiny inside after firing. As I said, it is not a great powder for max
loads in anything very hot since it builds pressure really fast. If you read the manuals
it will peak pressure in several calibers way before reaching normal velocity for the
caliber, so in some calibers is best for moderate or light loads. At that, it seems to
excell in my experience. I managed to win a 8lb jug in our club's end of year raffle,
so I am set for quite a while, and had to go out and search up uses for it. I knew
nothing of it before the windfall.

Bill