Primers Hard or Easy to ignite? Is there a List?

[JesterGrin_1]

Today I found with my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 the WOLF Large Rifle Primers are harder to ignite than my FED 210's. The norm would be two strikes of the hammer to set off the WOLF brand.

So I thought I would ask if there is some kind of list that will show the hardest primer to the easiest to Ignite?

And yes I do have a light hammer spring lol. :bigsmyl2:

[c3d4b2]

Others have experienced this problem. They reported that you need to make sure you are fully seating the primers in the primer pocket. If the primers are not fully seated, the first firing pin will seat the promer and the second will then ignite the primer

[Johnch]

And yes I do have a light hammer spring lol. :bigsmyl2:

I also had problems with Wolf primers in a pistol that had a light hammer spring

I replaced the spring and never had another problem

But I agree , if not fully seated , first hit may just be finishing seating the primer


John

[JesterGrin_1]

They are seated as far as my RCBS Hand Primer will place them. And since about 95% of the rounds had to be hit twice by the hammer I think it is just the light hammer spring and not how deep the primer is seated. As I do use the same RCBS hand primer for my 45-70 rounds with the FED 210 Primer with O problems to ignite.

And since it is a MARLIN lol and easy to work on. I will place a washer or two on the end of the hammer spring to bring the pressure back up a little at a time till I have 0 Problems.

And I know all this will sound odd but it is the norm for me lol. That I am loading a new BOOLIT the Ranch Dog 460-425Gr and even purchased brand new STARLINE 45-70 brass just for that BOOLIT as well as the WOLF primers.

I just thought hmmm maybe somewhere someplace there would be a list of the make of a primer and how hard they are to ignite next to others. You know maybe a list from the Hardest to the softest.

[c3d4b2]

I did some digging and have not found the post I remembered. I believe the post was by Bob Jones (the original importer).

Here is a reference I found

Russian primers are the newest thing to hit the market, and by all indications they work as well or better than the best domestic primers (so long as the rather hard Russian cups are firmly seated to proper depth).

http://www.6mmbr.com/308win.html
Reference is in the primer section.

I do not know if this is applicable to your situation or not......

The Wolf small rifle primers that come with a Magnum designation are the same intensity as the regular primers. They just have a thicker cup that is intended for service rifles with floating firing pins. I have seen references to the large rifle magnum being of similar construction, however I have not used them and have no experience if this is true or not.

[c3d4b2]

I do not know if this will help, but thought I would add it.


I found the Post from Bob Jones on the long range rifle site (You may have to join to view the post)

http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=11285&hl=russian&st=15


During the KVB years, I sold millions of the Russian (Murom) primers. There were a few shooters that had difficulties with them not firing. Once everybody seated them in the bottom of the primer cup and not just flush with the base, all was well in the world.

The Lapua brass seemed to have a deeper primer cup and was probably the worst offender of the not firing primers.

This I mention as the Wolf Primers made by Murom may have the same characteristics and be sensitive to seating depth.

The measurements made on the KVB primers was not scientific but done with a 0.0001" micrometer. The depth was thought to be 0.0018 to 0.0022" shallower than the Fed, Rem primers of the day.

The outside diameter.... I thought could have almost been oval. The measurements were from 0.0002 to 0.0005 larger that the US Primers. Thus making the KVB Primer very popular among the shooters with well used brass and larger primer cups.

..bjonessights.. snipersmilie.gif--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[X]


I also found this in the same post topic

That's true of the original Murom "Russian" KVB-7 primers I have, as well as the Wolf-branded LR primers I bought in 2008. If the PP primers have anvils at or below the cup front edge, I can see why they'd behave differently - I seat (all) primers to the point those anvils are just slightly compressed into the cups....

Packing for a three-day match weekend tonight; I'll try to take some close-up pics of the primers I have on hand for comparison but might not get to posting them here until Monday night.

[JesterGrin_1]

Thank You C3D4B2CPO Beep Beep lol. Good info there and it is correct in one thing I found to be true is that the WOLF primers were harder to seat than my Fed primers of which I feel the reason is they are a bit larger than the US Brand of primers. But I am not exactly sure of this since the Brass I used was Brand New Starline and I have not used any other type of primer in them. But if I use my Rem 45-70 cases the Fed 210 goes in much smoother and with greater ease.

I am in no great hurry on the 45-70 as I may not load more for load testing until next week. Right now I am trying to work up a good load for my Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag for I hope some HOG hunting this weekend. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay here is what I just found nothing lol. No really the Fed 210 Primer is .128 deep and the Dia is .210 Where as the WOLF is .128 deep and the Dia is .210 to .211 a little oval. And the Starline 45-70 once fired and cleaned primer pocket is .135 Deep and when the Wolf primer is seated into the Starline brass I have .004 below flush of the case. So that would or should mean I have .002 to .003 gap before the bottom of the primer will meet the bottom of the case. Or you could say I have .002 to .003 of free play. But this is just one case that I picked up to check.

Sorry I did not check the Fed primer since they are right at the same size. So this should apply to both primers.


So with this info known I feel that in the end the WOLF primer is just either thicker or just takes more to ignite than other primers of this size. Whewwwwwwwwwww :)

And I know this is way too much info about a simple primer lol.

[6pt-sika]

Here's what I have gone by for the last 20 or so years .

For large rifles I use CCI200's .

For mag large rifles I use Federal 215's .

For BPCR I use Federal 215's also .

For small rifle I use CCI or WIN .

For small pistol or large pistol or mags of either I stick with CCI and Federal .

When I shot a fair amount from the bench with heavy bolt bench guns I used the CCI200 for the LR's and the REM 7 1/2 for the SR's .


This has always worked well for me !

Granted I pick up others on occasion if I can get them at a real good price . But that stuff is used when I shoot silhouette or practice so the accuracy potential is not as crucial .

[Jon K]

It is a combination of primer size, and primer pocket size diference, and I believe the culprit is the light mainspring in your gun.

I notice the Wolf large rifle primer is harder to seat in the Starline brass than in R-P brass. Starline primer pocket is .0005-.001 smaller than R-P primer pocket. Wolf primer is .001 larger than Federal primer. I use the Wolf primer in my Win 94, with no problems. This gun has a light hammer fall, and has problems igniting CCI, Remington and Magtech primers. My Marlins also have no ignition problems, but none have light mainsprings.

BTW.......new mainspring @Numrich $9.00.

Good Luck,

Jon

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive found that the wolf primes ive used vary alot from lot to lot in hardness and in power. They will make your gun go bang and in these days of primers being hard to find id use them again in a heartbeat if i could find some but there not nearly as consistant as good old american primers.

[Char-Gar]

To each his own, but I consider any firearm that won't light off all makes of primers to be broken and in need of fixing. I don't want a firearm that works sometimes with some primers.

Oh yes... I use Remington primers for rifle loads both small and large. I use Winchester primers for handgun loads both small and large. I have been doing this for 30 years with no gripes what-so-ever. Before that I used CCI primers exclusively for another 20 years and again no gripes.

[JesterGrin_1]

Charger this is why one should take a gun out and shoot it if you make any changes to ammo or even a lot of primers. To make sure it works and if there is a problem correct it.

6PT-SIKA I only have a choice between FED 210's and WOLF LR primers lol. Well I do have some FED 215's but they are not needed with H-322. And I will say that RD460-425 THUMPS a bit lol. So far I have found that 45.OGr of H-322 but I did better with the RD460-350Gr. But this could be due to the WOLF primer as well. I would get 1" groups with the 350Gr and a little less than 2" groups with the 425Gr at 100 yards. Do not worry I am going to do some more testing. :)

Jon_K I have found that you do not need to purchase a new spring lol. Well okay if you cut it in half there could be a problem lol. But I have found that if a spring is just a bit light you can add a simple washer to one end and or both ends depending on what you need.

Thanks For the info Guys.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Federals are the most popular primer in the Australian Target scene, especially in the pistol disciplines as they are the softest and are set off easily by the light triggers everyone seems obsessed by. I used them exclusively when they were in the small packets (mainly because everyone else was) but they fell out of favour with me when they went to the silly big packet. Just about near impossible to get 100 out of 100 in the primer flipper, some always end up on the floor.

I like Winchester because they can be used for normal or magnum usage, I like Remington because they come in the little packets and I loved the old CCI because they were an incredibly tiny packet and I could fit heaps of them in my ammo tins that I store primers in.

The target rifle crowd favour the Federal Benchrest primer, but I can't imagine it makes that much difference to other well made primers.

Had no experience with the Wolf, but it's my bet that the metal is a tad harder, like most things Eastern Bloc. Hey Comrade! Whats the prob???? They work fine in our machine guns!

Four Fingers.

[JesterGrin_1]

Four Fingers I feel you are right. The WOLF primers are just a bit harder than other brands. But then again this should have been a given knowing that Russia makes everything like tanks lol. They have to by the simple fact of where they live.

I think in the morning I am going to try some of my Fed 210's and see how they do. I did run across something interesting. And that is I can not full length resize my Starline 45-70 brass. I think they are just a wee bit thicker than say my Remington 45-70 Brass. If I try and full length resize my Starline 45-70 brass I will get small dimples in it. And yes I have tried every kind of case lube I could beg borrow or steal lol. As since reloading has been a self teaching endever lol. And I am sooooooooooooooooo darn glad to have found this site.And a great deal of good people in it. :):):):)

[Jon K]

JG 1,

Can't size the Starline..............Anneal the brass.

Jon

[JesterGrin_1]

Jon_K I purchased the Starline Brass in 45-70 for heavy loads with H-322 and the Ranch Dog 460-425Gr BOOLIT. As I could be wrong but I thought to Anneal brass was just for Black Powder ?

My Die was set for full length resize but since it did not work all that well I backed the die off 5 turns. Works well now but as of yet to shoot the loaded rounds to see how it turns out. Right now my load is the RD460-425Gr with 45.0Gr of H-322 powder/Starline Brass and now a FED 210 Primer. I am going to try those over the wolf just to see how it works out. :) You know how testing goes lol. But after 50 rounds of those things yesterday my shoulder is just a tad touchy lol. And that is with the Limb Saver on there lol. :)


So I am going to go light for a bit and do some testing with my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag with the RD.432-265Gr WW case and so far the load I am working with is 22.5Gr of W-296 and the CCI LPP. Not the Mag primer. For some odd reason as 44Man said the Mag primer will open the groups up. The group I got today was right at 2 1/2 In at 100 yards. But gosh I do hope to improve that. :)

On a plus side with these loadings and Alox I used to have some specs of leading. But I made my own lube from a bunch of stuff and have fired hmmm about 70 rounds through the rifle and the barrel is shiney and smooth. Nothing in there looks great. I am flabergasted lol. And has a nice lube star on the end of the barrel. :) And I am new at this lube and casting stuff lol. And I was informed I did everything wrong lol. But it has worked out well lol.

[cajun shooter]

JG1, First let me say that annealing is not just for BP. I'm sure you have seen the effects of the annealing on military brass. I use Starline cases for about everything and have found that they are thicker and harder than the other brands. I would try to anneal a few of them cases for comparison. That Marlin is not at the right weight to do alot of testing big loads. When doing alot of bench testing I always use a sand bag for the shoulder. You can do a lot of testing using this method. When putting together loads years ago I found the CCI Bench Rest primers would tighten up my groups. Don't know if that would hold true today but you might want to play if you can find some in todays market. Later David