Paper Patching for the 22 Hornet

[303Guy]

Does anyone PP for the Hornet?

I have some left over 224 cast RCBS boolits that I have just tried to patch. I did no sizing before or after and I used rather thick tracing paper - because of its strength and the way it stretches when wet and shrinks when it dries. The final boolit was a tad tight to seat. So much so I had to use the press. The resultant cartridge was difficult to chamber due to the now expanded neck (unsized). It was loaded with a light load so I fired it!:Fire: Pressure was pretty normal for the hornet - lower than my usual load but high for the charge used.

Here it is.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-011F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-012F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-013F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-015F.jpg

This boolit was somewhat oversize right to the ogive.

I've no idea how it would shoot on the range! Looking at the boolit rear section, I would say probably not well. It did not enter the bore perfectly true (or got bent during entry). On the 'dark' side, the rifling is visible right to the tail edge. Unless the rebate wasn't completely round - which is likely.

[leftiye]

Well guys, he's gone and done it now! No more excuses about them there .22s being too small to patch. I suspect that it would be a real good idea to size your finished product some to make it fit your leade/freebore.

[303Guy]

Well, I was surprized that it entered the throat. The nose section measured .222 which is fine but the bands measured .233! After firing the rear band mesures .221. It is a .223 bore. I shall have to load up a few more and try then on the range. I will need to size them first, just to get them to seat! This could be fun but I recall casting those midget boolits with great horror!:mrgreen: Of course, if I pursue this one, the mould will not have al those grooves and steps. It will be a smooth sided, tapered boolit which will hopefully cast well and drop out the mold easily. Well, it will drop out because it will have an ejector pin in the nose!:roll: docone31's design![smilie=1:

[softpoint]

Wow! Patching .22 boolits!:shock: I'm pretty new to PP. Having good success with my 45/70's. I can hardly imagine wrapping a couple hundred of them little boogers!:Fire:

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It is nice to be enthusiastic, or to say "been there, done that", but I can hardly think of anything less rewarding in the casting and shooting of boolits than patching 22 bullets.

BvT

[303Guy]

I can hardly think of anything less rewarding in the casting and shooting of boolits than patching 22 bullets.
:mrgreen::mrgreen: I hear you!

Actually, it is dead easy! I tried it sort as a challange to myself. Then I found an easy way. It's casting those little boogers that's not so rewarding!

But, I have this beautiful little rifle, so ........ [smilie=1:

If it does pan out then I will consider swaging or rolling.

[DLCTEX]

A little alloy will make a pile of boolits. 10 # pot lasts forever.

[6.5 mike]

303 guy,that's just about the wildest thing Iv'e seen. You've jumped on the paper patch thing like ugly on a ape. Is your next try going to be a 17? I gotta see that!!!
Really, nice job. I was following your other wraps while on the boat, really good info.
I just tried loading the 185's I'd wrapped for the sav, didn't work, when seated they
opened the case neck up to much to chamber. Tried your crossed strip idea, hope it works, won't know until I get off the boat next time.
Keep wraping, I'm learning watching your pic's. Gives me something to look forward
to while I'm floating around at work.

[rhead]

I had the best results with the thinnest paper I could find. I guess that sooner or later the ratio between the paper thickness and boolit diameter will bite you, or it may have been the depth of my rifling. I was finally able to barely beat factory accuracy with a full case of Lil' Gun and a 55 grain Bator Boolit. Hang in there its good therapy.

[303Guy]

Tee Hee! Believe it or not, I have come up with a way that would work on the 17! Might not shoot straight though.:mrgreen:
It involves rolling the dry patch onto a mandrel, glueing the end with water soluble paper glue, drying that then soaking the tube in diluted paper glue until it swell enough to slip the casting into place and leave to dry. Done! The paper needs to be strong enough when wet. That's what I am working on now - my fingers are too clumsy for those little midgets.:roll:

The advantage of prerolling the paper into a sleave is that with the right sized mandrel and right sized patch, it is a breaze to align the edges perfectly. Plus the mandrel has a handle for our big hands. It's also easy to place the casting in the right place. But, the proof will be in the shooting!:Fire:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-016F.jpg

[303Guy]

rhead , what paper did you end up using? I'm using 0.05mm (.002") tracing paper because of its wet strength. It is too thick really but at this point I don't have any better options. This stuff I'm using is unlikely to come off the boolit at the muzzle. For starters, the lube groove is too deep for a clean cut.

[rhead]

I used some that comes between sheets of .003 mylar film that we use in the lab. I think it is called manifold paper and this source mikes out at .015". The 22 hornet loads are the only one that I use this paper on. I use the tracing paper on every thing else. A drafting supply house might have some .015 tracing paper or maybe even something thinner. It is something to try. I hope it works for you.

[303Guy]

Thanks rhead.

(I'm trying to get my head around American units of measure).:razz:
I measured some of the paper I have at hand. Cig paper measures .035mm (.0014"). Tissue paper is just a shade thicker but is softer when wet. The tracing paper I am trying is 0.075mm (.003"). Not 0.05mm as I said earlier - vernier error. Printer paper is 0.1mm (.004"). Do you mean .0015" (.04mm) tracing paper? That would work for me.

[softpoint]

Heh heh, I haven't cast any .22 bullets yet, although I might. I have a freind that does , and has had pretty good results. I prolly won't be patchin' 'em though.
And I ain't casting or patching .17's unless my survival depends on it! I have a .17 Fireball rifle, and them 20 grain Hornady's I load are almost too small to even handle at the loading press! I can see me with a microscope tryin' to install gaschecks! LOL:shock::mrgreen:

[6.5 mike]

Had to toss the .17 cal thing out just to see if 303 guy would bite. Didn't think about a mandrel, good idea.
Loaded some .17's for a fellow once, spent more time chasing them around on the floor then getting them in a case.
Iv'e found tracing paper seems to work best for me also. Wraps tighter,shrinks better,
& tough enough I don't tear it as much. Crushed the end off left thumb, rebulit looks like a toe, but useable. 7m/m is about as small as Iv'e tried so far. Have enough a hard enough time with 22 bullets when loading.

[pdawg_shooter]

Dont think putting the paper on with glue will work too good. If the paper doesn't come off at the muzzle you will have NO accuracy.

[303Guy]

:drinks: Yeah. I didn't even want to cast for the 303 'cause it's so small! And yeah, I can't hold those little 224 boogers either. But the sleave mandrel has a handle on it. The problem is picking up the wet sleaves to fit. At least they only fall onto the bench and don't roll away.:mrgreen:

But, for all the difficulties, when those little patched boolits are dry and robust enough to handle..... mmmmm. That's is rewarding!:drinks:

If I could just get them to shoot straight ...... :roll:

[303Guy]

Dont think putting the paper on with glue will work too good. If the paper doesn't come off at the muzzle you will have NO accuracy. True. The glue I am trying is ordinary school paper glue which dries brittle and has no adhesion to lead. This I have tested. Also, the glue that holds the sleave together gets disolved and diluted to equal the glue solution. When dry, there is no sign of glue, so it is all being absorbed into the paper. However, the paper is so damn strong that it might not cut in the rifling! Also, the tail of the boolits are sub-bore diameter (g/c rebate) and so is the forward section of the nose, so again, will it cut? Well, this trial was about getting the patch on. Now to get it to come off!:roll:

[rhead]

303GUY Thanks for catching my mistake. I guess my brain was only getting a 10% bloodflow at 4AM. Yes the paper is .0015". the decimal is wrong on the others also. An excellent illustration for anyone ever tempted to take any load directly from the internet and use it without confirming the safety from other sources. Mistakes will happen and sooner or later one will not get caught. Thanks again for watching out for me.
Have you tried making a mini loading block to hold your sleeves while you are wetting them and inserting the lead? Something like a Lee wad guide would be nice too but I don't see an easy way to make one unless something already in production can be adapted.

[303Guy]

Youre welcome!:drinks:


Have you tried making a mini loading block to hold your sleeves while you are wetting them and inserting the lead?Not yet. Thanks for the idea!

What I have done so far is to place a finger over one open end and insert the boolit into the other and press slowly. The trapped air opens the sleave and allows it so slide over nice and easy. It must be slow because the inner wrap needs a little time to slide open against the outer wrap. The trapped air also supports the sleave, preventing collapse. It's great!:-D So a sleave wetting support 'device' would make all that happen even easier!:Fire:

[303Guy]

Well, I tried the 'mini loading' block idea (just a test simulating one) and yes, we have a winner! This is going to work! And then, just because I cannot leave well enough alone, I had to try sleave patching a lubed boolit. Here it is.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-023G.jpg

I should mention that I strategically placed the joint out of sight! :mrgreen: (It had opened a little - some paper size corrections needed!)

Compare it to an un-lubed one
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-011F.jpg
Oops! The sleave is in the wrong position! (It happens if one is not careful).

[303Guy]

After sizing, the joint mis-alignment is a little less obvious - until zoomed in on a pic!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-025F.jpg

The lube one can see is under the patch. (Obviously).

[303Guy]

Well, taking in all the advice and suggestions, I got to the point of actually loading up a full-house hornet load with a PP'ed boolit. I didn't take a pic of the boolit or the loaded cartridge but here's the captured boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-042F.jpg

There was only one little piece of patch recovered. The rest is probably still in the 'can'. I was surprized by the penetration in damp rags. (I have found that damp rags kinda simulate flesh). So it seems that at higher loadings, the tracing paper works better!

[303Guy]

I can't quite make out whether or not the boolit base upset to fill the bore with the full-house load. The boolit broke up in the wet rags but it looks like the lube groove collapsed in the barrel. Compare the two boolits - one fast and one slow.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-049F.jpg

I am about to start loading a test batch and have halted over base obturation. I suppose there is only one way to find out but it's just that there will be more than one factor that could cause inaccuracy.

[windrider919]

hey 303guy, I don't know about the 22 cal PP bullets but I found that even with PP but without gas check I got better accuracy with a wad under the bullet. Thats with folded over PP bases, not the twisted tail base.

One thing about what you are doing bothers me though. I am wondering if your bullets are TOO oversize for accuracy. as I have written here on the forum multiple times I am shooting a .462 dia PP bullet in a .458 barrel but the harder lead core is .454. The paper will compress an amazing degree and the lead core will either swage down or the bullet bump up as needed. I have found from recovered bullets that I am swaging down to .452. And this is with a max charge for that bullet weight and the primers are showing medium flattening, not high pressure. But you are (yes / no?) taking a full barrel diameter bullet and wrapping it and then shooting it. Thats a lot of swaging in the firing! Of course, one of the old BP shooters who had been shooting PP for years told me that if a PP would chamber it would fire because PP has less resistance / friction in the barrel. He also said that it would not be accurate in that case. But again that was just his theory.

[longbow]

From what I read here, you are patching a groove diameter boolit? If so it is likely very much oversize.

For smokeless loads the rule of thumb is for the boolit to be at or slightly over bore diameter then patch to groove diameter or a a thou or two over.

The BP boys tend to shoot boolits enough undersize that they can patch to bore diameter or just over then let the BP bump up the boolit to fill the grooves.

Even with thin tracing paper of 0.001" you would want a boolit of about 0.220"/0.221" before patching.

My 0.308 doesn't seem to mind an oversize PP boolit but my .303 and .44 are more picky and seem to have read the rule of thumb. In fact my Marlin .44 mag likes a boolit of 0.421" patched to 0.432". I would have thought with microgroove I would be using a near bore size boolit then very thin patch but that didn't work that way.

This may be due to throat and leade as well. Some are more PP friendly,

So back to your issues. If you are not getting accuracy, try sizing the boolit down a few thou then paper patch back up to groove diameter.

I guess another point too. Many size after patching so that may be another option if the patched boolit will fit into the sizing die. If too much oversize with thick paper, try as thin as you can wrap with. I shoot as patched so cast the diameter I need (push out mould).

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks. Yes, the first boolit I fired through the bore was grossly oversize. I am now sizing the patched boolits to just a shade over groove diam and with the tracing paper patches, that seems to work OK. I tried my old style seating and it seemed to work (in so far as the boolit had even rifling impressions and the patch came of at the muzzle). For me the trick was to get the nose section to enter the throat and to that end I start the patch just over the the first drive band. This is the how I will load my first trial run.

I just so happened to have a push through sizer die I made for making 22LR case jackets.:razz:

Oh yes, because of the tiny nature of the boolit and the sleave I have been using straight cut patches. the tracing paper dries so hard that I can shave off the joint overlap to make a virtually perfect joint.


My 0.308 doesn't seem to mind an oversize PP boolit but my .303 and .44 are more picky Interesting! I had sort of assumed the 303 Brit would be the more forgiving one but I do know my two-groove is going to be the challange. Justy as soon as I can get some smaller diam castings I will try those. (Most of my mold trials were aimed at getting a prime casting as large as possible to fit throat and un-sized neck. I can size the shank down to 8.0mm (grove is 7.95mm - .313) but it's the nose diam that is my problem.

[longbow]

My Lee Enfields are both 5 groove so may behave entirely differently than the 2 groove but I have found that a 0.301" boolit patched to groove diameter or a little over did not work well but when I went to 0.304" boolit and used a thinner patch the gun was much happier.

0.304" boolit patched to 0.315" works well in mine. Much more oversize and accuracy falls apart and with the smaller boolit and thicker patch accuracy falls apart ~ at least with the components, paper and load I used.

Oddly I can shoot the 0.301" boolit patched to 0.314" in my .308 and it doesn't care, they work just fine.

Again, I do not size after patching so that may play a part here too.

One of my .303's is 0.303" bore and 0.314" groove, the other is 0.305" bore and 0.314" groove.

Also, if you haven't seen it this is a good site and particulary the article by David Southall on Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

He also comments on the 2 groove with cast boolits (not paper patched) and using filler. I have also taken to using filler for most reduced cast boolit loads and found it to work well. If you do try it, head the warning of increased pressure. You have to develop filler loads like any other and work up with a powder charge with filler. It is a controversial subject but I like filler.

Anyway, I have deviated from the .22 paper patched loads.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks for the link longbow.

Interesting thing he says about oily bores and chambers. I have found quite the opposite. I lube all my loaded ammo and as far as possible the bullets and boolits. Never had vertical stringing with a Lee Enfield! I wonder what is different about our respective loading techniques and/or rifles?


Oily bores and chambers will need to be cleaned and de-greased. The design of the Lee Enfield rifle and the tapered .303 British cartridge exacerbate the problem of bolt thrust when fed greasy cartridges. Dry, oil-free chamber and ammo is required for best accuracy otherwise your best reloads will string out vertically on the target. Bullet lube and sizing die lubricant, along with greasy fingerprints are all culprits!

[303Guy]

I have found that a 0.301" boolit patched to groove diameter or a little over did not work well but when I went to 0.304" boolit and used a thinner patch ...Been thinking on this. Would that be because the rifling can't cut the paper if the boolit is too small? Too big I can understand too - that would result in boolit deformation which would likely be uneven. So one needs a happy medium! Or a clever boolit design.;)

I can see a possible reason why sizing after patching could improve accuracy - the sizing would ensure the patch is separated from the boolit. I tried it and the patch comes free quite easily. Not sure how that would work with a bore rider design. Harder alloy might have the same effect by improving the cutting of the patch by the rifling. Thinner paper too. Mmmmm..... lots of things to think about!

[303Guy]

I have found a complete tracing paper patch in my wet rag boolit catcher! All curled up and blackened but in one piece. I don't know which boolit it was wrapped on but clearly something is wrong. Low velocity not giving enough lateral pressure to cut the paper? Too tough a paper? Too soft a boolit?

This patch stayed on the boolit until quite deep into the we rags. Have I invented a 'Full Paper Patched' boolit?:roll: Will an intact patch that stays on cause accuracy problems? (Assuming there is no corner or edge flapping in the wind).

I will now concentrate on writing pad paper.

[longbow]

Can't help you on the patch staying with the boolit except maybe the glued edge is causing grief.

I tried glue when I first paper patched but did not have very good success so went to plain old water and it worked well.

Something else I have read is that the open edge should face the direction of rotation so when the boolit leaves the muzzle that edge lifts and helps separate the patch from the boolit.

I have also read that twist direction doesn't matter, but twist direction made sense to me so I always patch so the open edge is in the direction of twist. Having said all that, I have as yet to find an "unwound" patch. They turn to confetti. Sometimes big confetti and I have found some very large pieces where rifling is very clear but still pieces.

That wasn't a bunch of help was it? Just rambling again.

Longbow

[303Guy]

That wasn't a bunch of help was it?On the contrary!:drinks:

Direction of paper wrap and direction of joint is entirely arbitrary so why not wrap it in a direction that would assist in un-wrapping? Thanks for the tip.

I am compromising the gluing of the edges - I am only gluing the trailing corner. that bit gets cut off when the twist or fold is created!

[windrider919]

I have gotten everything I need to make a couple of moulds for a 22 slug to PP. I am going to make it .218 RN with smooth sides n flat base on the push thru mould. And for the split mould { a real adventure in machining!! } I am going to try to make a tapered bullet, .212 at the nose and .218 at the base. I don't have a cherry, I am re-profiling a twist drill for the split mould. I have modified old moulds from a smaller bullet cal to 45 and 35 bullets but it is harder the smaller the diameter.

The 221 Fireball is a 1MOA cartridge and my CZ527 has great accuracy with jackated bullets 40 to 50 grains. It has a 12:1 twist so bullets longer than .600 are not supposed to stabilize. The 50 gr Hornady V-Max still does and it is about .700 though. I do not know what weight I will get but I plan to make the moulds drop .575 / .580 in length.

Now I am really pushing the envelope!

[303Guy]

I love it!:drinks:

I wish you the greatest success! Please keep posting your progress.

A 55gr Hornady bullet is .75" long. How long is a 60gr Hornady? Well, both those bullets shoot real well in my 1 in 16 twist hornet. The secret is in the very low muzzle blast. But a 1 in 12 twist will surely stabilize a pretty darn heavy cast boolit - they tend to have more mass nearer the circumference, making them just that much more stable.

:Fire::Fire::Fire: