paper patch mold ideas

[TREERAT]

if you have a home made smooth side paper patch mold, could you please post a picture? or a detailed description? I am going to make one for my .358, and would like different ideas of how to do it.

I appreciate any help! THANKS!

[longbow]

I have been making these moulds for a long time. They are simple to make and shoot well.

The simplest is a bored piece of round bar with a sliding nose form but I have also made them with an ejector pin for the nose and the cavity formed with a D reamer.

Best is to use a lathe which will make a very concentric boolit but I think even a careful set up in a drill press could work.

I have used smooth boolits naked, over a grease cookie, knurled and lubed, paper patched. Naked leads to leading if a filler isn't used but no problems otherwise. They work very well for paper patching and if the mould is lapped after boring the boolits almost fall out.

This photo (0072) is of an old mould I bored out to hold 3/4" round bar which is the actual mould. All the bits are part of the 3/4" round bar which simply drops into the "holder" with sprue plate.

The insert mould is .30 cal slightly undersize for knurling for my .303. The nose form is pushed to near the top of the mould.

Photo 0073 shows the internal bits with a .44 cal. boolit on the left and .30 cal. on the right

Longbow

[TREERAT]

I bought a small drill press to do this, and got a piece of 1 1/4" square steel.

What is a D reamer?
I can drill a hole, but what is the way to shape the nose pin?

[303Guy]

Mine is a little different in principle in that it is a nose pour. The pouring funnel produces a hollow point and cuts the sprew.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-888F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-889F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-879F.jpg

The hollow point with sprew stub in the middle (filled with lube).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-880F.jpg

It is supposed to have an ejector pin press mounted next to the pot but I havn't gotten that far yet.

[TREERAT]

303guy, are you pouring, into the gas check? very interesting! never would have thought of that!
although I can't quite follow how your funnel is a sprue cutter, do you just bend it over to break off the sprue, or mabye twist to tear away. mabye if I seen it with the funnel out I could understand.

[longbow]

Second lump over from the right in the photo of "bits" is the D reamer.

Essentially, you turn the shape you want in tool steel then cut it in half and heat treat it. Better is to heat treat then grind in half but that takes a jig and careful grinding so you don't lose heat treatment.

You are looking at the cutting "face" in the photo. It is a "0" rake cutting tool. It can be turned either way to drill/ream the cavity. I turn mine in the lathe then either mill, or if small diameter, file to the halfway point then heat treat.

They do tend to warp slightly doing it this way so cut a little large (in my experience about 0.003" over D reamer diameter) so you have to take that into account. If you are careful you should be able to make a reasonable D reamer by filing a piece of round bar in your drill press. It will be difficult to get it true by filing though. Yoiu will have to file to size and check with a micrometer to ensure you have the right diameter.

For starters, you want a boolit that is about bore diameter so slug your bore to determine that. You should be able to buy a drill and reamer that is close.

So let's say your groove diameter is 0.358" and you have 0.005" deep rifling. You want a cavity about 0.348". There is an "S" drill size that is exactly 0.348" but a drill will almost always make an oversize hole so maybe drill 11/32" then ream with an "S" reamer. That will make your cavity.

The nose shape and ejector pin will be difficult to make without a lathe. You might just leave the drill bit nose shape to start with or maybe try grinding the shape you want on the tip of the drill bit. You still need an ejector pin so will have to drill right through with about 13/64's bit to allow a 3/16's ejector pin. A simple pin can be made by just mushrooming the tip of the 3/16" rod over so it sits in the bottom of the cavity. That will make a small flat on the nose of your boolit.

Difficult to explain in a short post but you have to be working to thousandth's of an inch and the cavity has to be true, round and smooth to get any sort of accuracy out of the boolit. I bore or ream then lap to final size. You might get away with careful drilling and lapping. If the cavity is not smooth though the boolits will stick.

Also, the base of your boolit has to be perpendicular to the body again within very small tolerances.

Not sure if this is helping or not. With the right tools is is an easy job but accuracy is very important both for size and to ensure the boolit flies well. If the base is out by a couple of thou or the nose is off center by a couple of thou you will not likely get very good groups.

Longbow

[303Guy]

or mabye twist to tear awayYou're on to it!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-636F.jpg

This mold can make some nice boolits.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg

The downside is that the mold and funnel have to be hot! The gas check must be at near lead melting point or the lead does not shape properly but at those temperatures, a curious thing happens, the boolit base section gets stronger than the forward section. That's because the forward section is heavier so as to freeze the metal at the base first so that no shrinkage cavities form. And it works.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-010F.jpg

[303Guy]

I made my reamer the hard way - I shaped a twist drill!:roll:
But I too, lapped the bore to size. Mine come out easily because they are tapered but the gas check has some resistance.
I must say that I like longbow's mold. I was trying to get away from the 'feathers' around the base of the boolit from a base pour. That could still be done with longbow's design. I have thought of a mold with a split near the base that would form the seating section of the boolit and would taper very slightly forward to the joint and have a rounded trailing edge. The pour hole can still be in the base with it's sprue cutter and the nose plug would still be there. By the way, there is no reason not to shape the nose plug to form a hollow point.

I cannot do it right now as I am unemployed, meaning I have no access to a lathe! (Got made redundant!)

[longbow]

I think I mentioned in another post that I have made these moulds in both base pour and nose pour.

I suspect other than the sprue cutter, the nose pour is much like 303guy's mould. I just make up an insert for the nose and use either a flat ejector pin for flat base or conical/ogival for hollow base (shotgun slugs mostly) and have a nose pour mould.

I first came up with the idea about 40 years ago and thought I was pretty smart. Hah! Ideal was making them for paper patch boolits over 100 years ago. There is a picture in my Lyman Cast Boolit book. I didn't feel so smart after that but I did keep on making them.

Also, there is a section in joeb33050's book "Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert" that mentions this style of mould and shows the basic design. It can be had here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36337

The whole book is a good read too and best of all free to download.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Than ks for the link. I know how feel! I got smart once and invented a rifle suppressor unlike any other on the market at the time - Hah! I didn't know but at that time the Finns were marketing this thing and it was an old design then already! Aah well. At least I know I was on the right track.

Shotgun slug molds .... mmmmm....!

I am also thinking along the lines of a tapered body, straight seating section, Louverin style boolit for paper patching using a nose pour split mold. I think a flat meplat nose would be quite fine for CB's so that would simplify the sprue cutter and make the mold pretty standard other than the odd shape cavity. My reasoning here is the requirements of a two-groove bore. I would want the grooves to be quite shallow, no deeper than bore diam, so only the bands would enlarge toward the base. There would have to be a step down at the base to prevent bullet base deformation. My plan it make (or get someone to make) a split block mold with tight fitting hinge pieces and then to set up in a lathe to accurately machine the cavity. This one won't be too simple to make!

[longbow]

theperfessor did a very good write up on mould making here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=38573&highlight=theperfessor

and I have a write up on lathe boring moulds I could send you. I can't recall but think it is in Word or text format. It has some good set up hints to get the mould blocks centered well in a 4 jawed chuck. You can't be out by more than a thou or so or the boolits will stick in one side.

I made a base pour 2 diameter boolit for the .303 modeled after the 314299 except grooveless. Shoots pretty well and no leading if I use COW filler. I usually dip lube or tumble lube as well so the boolits do have some lube on them.

So far I have found that my .303 likes a 0.304"+ bullet patched to groove diameter but the mould I made was 0.301" so I decided to knurl then patch. Worked very well. The boolits come out right at 0.304" and shoot well.

I like the base pour design so I can change nose forms to try out different shapes. Mostly I like the simple to make stuff being a pretty simple guy. It is fun to tinker.

Longbow

[longbow]

Hah! Look at that! Scroll down to post #19 in theperfessor's write up and a fellow has posted a picture of the Ideal mould I mentioned.

Longbow

[303Guy]

It is fun to tinker.It sure is!:drinks:

Thanks for the Ideal Mould link.


So far I have found that my .303 likes a 0.304"+ bullet patched to groove diameter but the mould I made was 0.301" so I decided to knurl then patch. Worked very well. The boolits come out right at 0.304" and shoot well.Now that's what I am aiming for! (Originally, I was aiming for a cast boolit that only just fitted into the throat). Perhaps it's time we asked TREERAT what he is aiming for?[smilie=1:

[TREERAT]

the bad news first, my pawn shop drill press chuck wobbles and will not run true, oh well it was only $45.00

and ordered the wrong sliding drill press vise from grizzley, to tall, but I got a good one, so I will have it when I can get a larger and quality drill press

so I decided to ream out an old 30 carbine mold. my bore is .350 and lands .359 so I am trying to ream out till I can drop a .351 bullet and patch up and size to .360.

so far I didn't make the cavity long enough to suit me, it weights 165g and I want at least 180g.
right now I am at .331 diameter, when I get the profile right and the weight up I will lap and polish to drop a .351

[TREERAT]

you know what they say, measure twice cut once. well I got heavy handed, in a hurry, and ruined the mold blocks I was opening up. everything on hold for the moment.

[303Guy]

That's why God gave us Beer!:drinks::mrgreen:

Knowing I would botch my first attempt, I went straight to using off-cuts and solid push out type molds. It took several attemps to get where I thought I wanted to be!:roll: But don't give up. You'll find a way!:drinks:

I've been thinking (a dangerous thing to do but ...) and I have come up with the idea of using the 'hollow point' pin as a locating key for a split mold. The nose and pin would have to shaped so that the boolit can just roll off when the mold is opened.

[camerl2009]

You're on to it!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-636F.jpg

This mold can make some nice boolits.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg

The downside is that the mold and funnel have to be hot! The gas check must be at near lead melting point or the lead does not shape properly but at those temperatures, a curious thing happens, the boolit base section gets stronger than the forward section. That's because the forward section is heavier so as to freeze the metal at the base first so that no shrinkage cavities form. And it works.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-010F.jpg

how did you make it and what is it made out of

[RMulhern]

Me thinks Red River Rick....is way ahead of you guys on mould making!!

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8285/ppellip.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/ppellip.jpg/):kidding::smile:

[Longwood]

Second lump over from the right in the photo of "bits" is the D reamer.

Essentially, you turn the shape you want in tool steel then cut it in half and heat treat it. Better is to heat treat then grind in half but that takes a jig and careful grinding so you don't lose heat treatment.

You are looking at the cutting "face" in the photo. It is a "0" rake cutting tool. It can be turned either way to drill/ream the cavity. I turn mine in the lathe then either mill, or if small diameter, file to the halfway point then heat treat.

They do tend to warp slightly doing it this way so cut a little large (in my experience about 0.003" over D reamer diameter) so you have to take that into account. If you are careful you should be able to make a reasonable D reamer by filing a piece of round bar in your drill press. It will be difficult to get it true by filing though. Yoiu will have to file to size and check with a micrometer to ensure you have the right diameter.

For starters, you want a boolit that is about bore diameter so slug your bore to determine that. You should be able to buy a drill and reamer that is close.

So let's say your groove diameter is 0.358" and you have 0.005" deep rifling. You want a cavity about 0.348". There is an "S" drill size that is exactly 0.348" but a drill will almost always make an oversize hole so maybe drill 11/32" then ream with an "S" reamer. That will make your cavity.

The nose shape and ejector pin will be difficult to make without a lathe. You might just leave the drill bit nose shape to start with or maybe try grinding the shape you want on the tip of the drill bit. You still need an ejector pin so will have to drill right through with about 13/64's bit to allow a 3/16's ejector pin. A simple pin can be made by just mushrooming the tip of the 3/16" rod over so it sits in the bottom of the cavity. That will make a small flat on the nose of your boolit.

Difficult to explain in a short post but you have to be working to thousandth's of an inch and the cavity has to be true, round and smooth to get any sort of accuracy out of the boolit. I bore or ream then lap to final size. You might get away with careful drilling and lapping. If the cavity is not smooth though the boolits will stick.

Also, the base of your boolit has to be perpendicular to the body again within very small tolerances.

Not sure if this is helping or not. With the right tools is is an easy job but accuracy is very important both for size and to ensure the boolit flies well. If the base is out by a couple of thou or the nose is off center by a couple of thou you will not likely get very good groups.

Longbow
I drill a shallow (sometimes stepped) hole in my nose punches then with the lathe running, carefully use a Dremel to make it the shape of the tip I want. Be EXTREMELY CAREFUL in the very tip as the stone will start jumping around in the hole and destroy your work before you can stop it. I use the tiniest stones I can find and do the very center first and leave the outer edge for last because the stone won't be so likely to grab and jump around while grinding that part.

[zdogk9]

I think I'm following this OK, one question I have is. What sort of shrinkage can I expect from cavity diameter to finished bullet diameter? Darn it to heck, I thought I had it bad just with my shootingreloadingcastingboatbuilding obsession, not to mention the hunting and fishing, and now this is starting to grab hold of my mind.
Bob

[MBTcustom]

Hmmm, kind of an old thread but since I do have some molds I have made,
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0517.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0524.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0521.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0479.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0480.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0378.jpg

[RMulhern]

Contact Red River Rick! He knows where you can get a mould you'll be REALLY proud of!!

[firefly1957]

TREERAT are you shooting a Winchester 35 S.L. or .3521 S.L. ?

[turbo1889]

Hmmm, kind of an old thread but since I do have some molds I have made, . . . .

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0524.jpg

. . . .

The cutting tool pictured here. What did you make it out of? A re-ground drill bit, milling bit, reamer, etc . . . ?

I’ve got some smooth sided, nose pore, adjustable, swappable base pin molds I plan on having made some time in the future. Not for paper patch but rather for wad-slugs that go inside the shot-cup of a plastic shotgun wad. Could call it plastic patched I suppose; 0.680” diameter for 12ga. and 0.576” diameter for 20ga.

Have been contemplating cutting methodology for a while wondering if a simple reground drill bit, end milling bit, or spiral reamer would do the job with just a simple plunge cut on a milling machine from the bottom of the blocks while they were clamped shut and clamped down to the bed. No need for any CNC lathe turned cavity with fragile little cutting tools or trying to use the old fashioned cherry cutting process with closing the blocks around a spinning cherry cutter.

[longbow]

Turbo:

I have cut moulds using a simple D bit.

Just take a piece of high carbon steel round bar, turn to the shape you want then mill in half to the center line, heat treat and go at it.

They cut pretty much on size but I usually make them a couple thou undersize then lap the cavity to finish and bring it to the size I want.

Here are some examples from machining sites:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5251.0
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/51032200/Machining-The-Clapper-Pin-and-Hole-0827---Machining-The-Clapper
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1334.0

It is a bit hard to tell from the photo but Goodsteel's looks a little fancier, but a simple D bit will work and can be made with nothing but a lathe, file and micrometer or vernier. If you have a mill it helps. I have made moulds of steel, bronze and brass using D bits.

It is best to rough out a hole to near size and use the D bit to finish as you would with a reamer but I have also used them to "drill" the entire cavity.

Longbow

PS: for small cavities, head bolts or other bolts of grade 8 work to make D bits and old axles can be used to make larger D bits it you don't have ready sources of high carbon steel but most machine shops should some round bar that is suitable.

[MBTcustom]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0524.jpg

The cutting tool pictured here. What did you make it out of? A re-ground drill bit, milling bit, reamer, etc . . . ?
It is made out of soft 416 SS it dont take much to ream aluminum. I just turned the bore riding diameter on the lathe and then shaped the nose with a file until she looked sexy enough to be painted on a b52 bomber. Then I used a 1/4" end-mill in a Bridgeport to cut one flute almost to the center-line. Then I put it back in the lathe and filed the relief on the cutting edge. I put it back in the milling machine and used it to ream the cavities with plenty of cutting fluid.
A couple of hints: The reamer will cut oversize but the boolit will cast .002 inches under the cold measured cavity diameters. Therefore, I had realy good luck just making the reamer the size that I wanted the boolit to be. When I ream the cavities, they will come out about .003 inches over the reamer size, but then, when I cast the boolits, they will come out .002 under what the cavities measured, which gives you .001 inch for sizing.
Again these molds are aluminum Cast iron, steel, or brass will surely give different results, but the rule of thumb for aluminum is, the cavities need to be .002 inch oversize.
I hope this helps.