Titegroup or Clays

[quickshot]

I have a problem. I have some 158gr lswc for .38 and some 230gr lrn for the .45 but I can't decide on a powder. I am looking for a low charge wt./clean burning powder and can't make up my mind between Titegroup and Clays. So whadda yall think. I am interested in yall's loads, opinions, comments, snickers, flames,suggestions, etc. So lets have it Titegroup or Clays and WHY?


Quickshot

[felix]

Quickshot, you have to define purpose. Cheap vs clean, high vs low density, hot vs cold burn, high vs low power, etc. ... felix

[quickshot]

ok purpose is
1) clean!!
2) low charge weight
3) pistol shooting is 90% indoors so temp not really that varied
4) what ever will make a double charge easier to spot (rember i am still a newbie)
5) Least leading
6) meters well through an autodisk PM

hope this helps


Quickshot

[swheeler]

QS: can't say about titegroup but Clays is CLEAN burning, I've used it a little in 38 spl with good accuracy, no lead and clean, and a lot in 12 ga 1 1/8 oz loads. In the 12 it burns so clean you'd think 700x was damp lignite by comparison! Kinda like burning red oak compared to lodgepole in your stove.

[rbstern]

Clays is my favorite 38 special powder. Extremely clean. Definitely economical. I also use HP38, but my S&W revolver gets dirty much more quickly with HP38. Red Dot works well for me also, but again, dirtier than Clays.

My regular load for Clays, whether shooting light or heavy boolits, is 3.4 grains. Under a 105 grain SWC, this is a fairly mild, accurate plinking round. Under a 158 grain boolit, it's got a bit of knockdown oomph.

I found with charges lighter than 3.4, it's position sensitive in the 38 special case. It also meters a bit better with a larger cavity in the powder measure.

[j4570]

With a low charge weight, it's going to be hard to spot a double charge.

I use Universal Clays (not Clays) in 45 ACP and 38 Special. 200 gr SWC's for the 45 and just about anything in the 38 Special (I don't load near max).

I have been trying to consolidate powder down to a few "core" powders for a while. Universal Clays replaced Unique because it was cleaner burning. Supposedly, the new Unique burns cleaner but I had had already made the switch and am not switching back for now.

I realize there is a temptation to be economical, but considering if you are charging an average of 7gr per round (not likely with Universal Clays for those two rounds, especially in 38 Special), that's 1000 rounds for $20(ie, cost of 1 pound), or 2 cents per round for the powder. Not likely a deal killer.

I use up powder in my 38 Special Plinking loads. I've been trying to kill a can of Dupont 700X for a while now.

The more a case fills, the easier a double charge is to spot, so that's going to be converse to your economy requirement. My point is, when pistol shooting, I don't think economy is an issue as far as powder is concerned, it's the least costly usually when loading rounds like you mentioned (44 mag, and others are an exception).


JW

[slughammer]

For your application I would go with regular Clays. I've seen 100fps ES in 45 ACP with Universal Clays. I think Universal would be better suited to 30,000 psi.

Clays is great for ignition also, much less position sensative than bullseye.

[Denver]

I've used Clays in 44 Spl, 44 Mag ,and 45 Colt for CAS loads with good results. Also tried Titegroup in these with some success, but didn't like how it sooted up the cases. Much dirtier than Clays. Clays is also an excellent powder for 12 guage target loads. Very clean.

[trooperdan]

Whatinthehell were they thinking when they named two powders so similarly! Clays and Universal Clay's irritates me everyt time I think about it!

[Lloyd Smale]

I use alot of pr200 which is surplus aa2 and it works great. Other then that ive had my best luck with bullseye in both calibers.

[j4570]

slughammer,

Clays may be better suited for this purpose, I don't know. I simply bought Universal Clays as a replacement for Unique years ago which worked out well as I didn't like how dirty Unique was. I never got good results from WW231 for 45 or Bullseye (though Bullseye was better).

I guess my main point was it's going to be hard finding an economical powder (ie powder with low charge weights) that you will readily see a double charge.

I mean, you double charge a 44 mag case with 2 charges of 20 grains of WW296 and it's everywhere spilled. That's obvious. Double charge a 38 case with 2 charges of 3-4 grains, may not be so obvious.

These are for illustrative purposes only and don't reflect any actuall load data.

[threett1]

Not to highjack this thread but, I've always used a lot of Unique, and I'm quite disappointed with how dirty it still is. I shoot 38, 357, 41mag, 45auto and 45Colt. Would the Clays do good for light to mid range loads for all these?

[swheeler]

threett1; pull your head out of your ass!

[slughammer]

I guess my main point was it's going to be hard finding an economical powder (ie powder with low charge weights) that you will readily see a double charge.


I agree, the choice of a powder to avoid a double charge is a good choice. For low pressure rounds like 38 slp and 45 acp, there is a trade off. It would be nice to have the best of both worlds.

For single stage pistol reloading, I recommend charging all the cases and then shining a flashlight into them all. Back and fourth, up and down. Any vagrancies can be found that way.

[Beau Cassidy]

.38/.158 Grain LSWC- 3.5 grains. Clean and accurate. Use it as my "go to" target load.

.45/230 Grain- Can't accurately answer that one but clays does great with the 185 gr and 200 grain bullets anywhere from 2.9 grains/200 gr. bullet (11 lb. recoil spring) to 4.2 with the 185 grainer. Shouldn't be any different with the 230 Gr.

Clays is the only thing I shoot in my .45's with lead. Come to think of it, it is about the only powder I use with target lead loads in .38, .44, and .45. I haven't tried it in 9mm yet and only shoot condoms in the .40.

Beau

[Blacktail 8541]

Neither Clays or Tight Group will be easy to spot a double charge, Tight group will most likely produce the best accuracy with Clays being just a little cleaner burning.The two are so close as to being hard to justify one over the other in target loads. If you want to shoot a little stouter loads in the future go with Clays as it can give a little velocity edge.They will both handle the light to moderatly heavy bullets in target loads. If you are going to try to narrow your powders down to just a couple then the only choice in my opinion is to go to Universal Clays as it can be used in almost any case up to mid power loads very saisfactory performance.

[eveready]

Quickshot,
You might give some thought to trying Trailboss if you are only going to shoot lead. It is very bulky and takes up a lot of space in the case. It was formulated especially for cowboy action shooting and light loads but I heard of one IPSC shooter using it for a major load in 45acp.
Eveready

[threett1]

swheeler; I'll try to do that. Have a great day.

[yodar]

Hey Eveready!

Tell me 'bout trailboss in .45 ACP

I'M CURIOUS IF IT WOULD WORK
That stuff is strange ppowder. looks like Cheerios!

Back to the main thread: Re: CLAYS The 1911 list goes apesh*t over Clays and I agree for 1911 200 gr SWC indor shooten.

I rarely need to clean the gun. A pound lasts forever at 3.9 gr/load


UNIVERSAL is an excellent powder but appears less suited for my applictation and I use it for 9mm ONLY. It too is an excellent clean powder

[eveready]

Yodar,
I haven't tried trailboss in the 45acp myself. Just read on another forum about an IPSC shooter using it for a major load, over 165 power factor. I did play around with it in my 610 S&W revolver, it sure does smell funny when you light it off.

[big uns]

I have used a lot of Clays in 38 special,45 Schofield and 45LC . I really like the stuff.I shoot Cowboy Action and use light loads behind lead bullets. It has sightly less recoil than titegroup.