Is this something to worry about?

[WildmanJack]

Well here I am, trying to pick your brains again. I have a 500 Gr. Saeco two cavity mold that consistantly drops boolets that vary from 509 to 513 Gr. I using them in my .45-70 Sharps, on the other hand I have a double cavityLee 425 Gr. mold that drops boolets within a grain or two of each other. I'm using an alloy that is just about 20-1. I'm stumped by the difference in the weight of the boolets falling from the Saeco mold and keep reading that In eed to seperate all my boolets by weight for consistancey at the range. So should I worry about the small difference in weight or not??

Jack

[wiljen]

Depends on your purpose - I'm sure that variation is still minute of beer can at 100 yards so if that is your only goal, no worries. On the other hand if you are shooting at 1000 - you need all the help you can get so I'd go the extra step and sort.

[WildmanJack]

Wiljen,
Thanks for the quick respon se.1000 yds is my final goal, but the nearest 1000 yd range is about an hour away so I can't just go hopping in the car and diving there as often as i would like.
I will start sorting all my boolets from now on and try to keep the long range ones within a few 10's of a grain..
Jack

[jdgabbard]

That is only 0.8% variance in weight, not to mention that the heavy weight boolit. I wouldn't even sweat it. I'm sure you wont be able to tell the difference between the two weights. I keep my boolits as long as they fall within a couple of grains...and that is at 190g...I cant tell the difference. So I think you're good.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Agreed , I shoot a lot of heavy weight boolits in 45/70 and I like to check the boolits just to be sure my alloy is what I think it is. I don't worry about a couple of grains with these heavy boolits. I only check a few with each new batch of alloy. I'm way to lazy to weigh every boolit looking for minute variation in weight. If you are shooting National Match , I might , but I doubt it.

I can't see any difference in impact at the target , shoot em up and be happy , smell the smoke.

[WildmanJack]

Thanks guys, that make me feel a lot better. I'm just gonna load'em and shoot'em as they sit... Sure appreciater the input...

:drinks::drinks:
Jack

[montana_charlie]

Wildman,
When you are shooting for fun, or to increase your trigger time, 4 grains difference probably won't matter at 100/200 yards on paper...or 300/400 yards on gongs.

If you are in the 'load development' process, then everything should be as perfect as you can make it...for a better indication of what is helping and what isn't.

When you get out to 1000 yards, there are other things that may have more effect than bullet weight differences. But, I would segregate bullets by variations of no more that .2 grains...because that is the best resolution my little digital scale is capable of.

It would be helpful if you could discover why that one mould is so inconsistent when you use it. Does it throw visually 'perfect' bullets, or bullets that just look 'good enough'?
CM

[WildmanJack]

Charlie,
That's one of my questions... This Saeco mold throws beautiful boolets, I can't figure out why the weight is so different. If I was getting fins or somethign like that I could understand it, but nope they're pretty , pretty boolets... Infact, here's a closeup picture of three.. Three boolets, three different weights!!!
Go figure..
Presently I'm working up a load for the 500 Gr. boolet, so I gues I better keep em seperate
Jack

[leftiye]

Sounds like maybe your Saeco doesn't close uniformly (not all the way sometimes). Try gripping the handles more tightly. Tiring, I know, but run a test. There are gizmos to clamp the blocks closed.

Check the mating surfaces for debris, and flatness, and check the pins to see if they close all the way easily, or bind maybe.

Cast hotter! This will also help uniformity of weight.

What alloy? Do you need more tin to improve fillout? 1 to 2% is plenty.

[montana_charlie]

Jack,
I hope that 'critical comment' doesn't make you mad.

Your picture can be magnified quite a bit if one keeps clicking on it. Under that enlargement, a number of 'imperfections' appear.
To start, the corners of the driving bands (most of them) don't seem very sharp. Then, there are little dents and divots scattered around...maybe even something that could be a wrinkle in the middle driving band on the center bullet.

The bases don't seem to be real uniform between the three samples, with a 'wavy' edge on the right-hand bullet...and the length of the gas check area seems longer on the center bullet than the one on the left.

Yes, some of these 'criticisms' might be incorrect. Lighting and contrast can make a viewer get a wrong impression of what he is seeing. But when you see a halfway well-taken picture of a 'perfect' bullet, you know immediately that it is perfect.
An example would be the fifty caliber honey in the middle of this picture from FPMIII.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/e76ca99b.jpg

If you have to stop to wonder if this or that is a flaw...it is almost never a 'perfect' one.

I might load and shoot bullets like yours if I was testing a lube to see if it leaves soft fouling, or to let the neighbor bang away at a gong. But they don't appear to be the kind for those days when weighed bullets are on the menu.

I'd recommend more heat or more tin...or maybe both.

CM

[WildmanJack]

CM,
No sweat.. I'm glad u took the time to check the picture out closely, I was hopeing you would. Ok, so I'll throw these back in the pot, addd more tin and get the melt hotter. Man I sure would like to throw a boolet like the one in the middle!! I see what you mean about the imperfections in the finished product. As compared with the one you showed it's pretty trashy, That sure is a beauty.. Thanks for the help, and the suggestions...
:drinks:
Jack

[leftiye]

If'n you get a shiny boolit, you're casting a little cool. IMHO Lots of people do cast endeavoring for shiny, and perfectly filled out and it can be done, I just don't think you can rely on it. Are your pins binding?

[WildmanJack]

No, pins aren't binding, I honestly think it's that D#^%@*(% Lee Mold. Sometimes it pulls off just a wee little bit of lead from one side of the base. then it won't for 20 or 30 rounds, then it'll pull it off again. I'm gonna scrap the 500 Gr. mold and get a Hoch or something in that lin. I'm tired of re-melting my boolets cause they aren't like they should be. Man I sure wish I had an H&G 500 Gr. for my .45-70...
Jack

[leadman]

I was having problems with weight variance with a Lee 6 cavity 200gr. SWC mould. On close inspection the front driving band was not quite filled out.
I kept the same alloy but turned the heat up on the Lee pot almost all the way. Solved the problem.

[WildmanJack]

Tried that today....Cranked the heat up to almost 900 today!! Still got crappy boolets. Gonna order a Hoch..[smilie=b:
Jack

[Wayne Smith]

I'm told it is very hard to cast good big boolits from a bottom pour pot. You might order a Lyman or RCBS Ladle along with the mold and give it a try.

If you want to compete at 1000 you are climbing a steep learning curve. It may end with a collection of certified metal and custom molds cut to fit your barrel.

[cajun shooter]

WMJ, MC is correct in all that he told you. If you follow that advise you will see a big difference. And as Wayne said you are also in that area where you put down the bottom pour and pick up the ladle. Oh and by the way, Order a Hoch and put the Lee in that big pile that I know has to be. I've not heard of anyone that is a good BPCR shooter use Lee molds. They are for the learning curve only.

[Phil]

Hi Wayne,

I started out with a ladle and dipper when I was a kid, back in the fifties. Then, someone gave me a little Lyman bottom pour furnace. I haven't looked back since. I have used the same RCBS Pro-Melt since probably the late seventies I'd guess. My casting buddy is still using that little Lyman job to this day with no problems except a bad thermostat and I got it used back in the late fifties, early sixties. I have NO problems getting very consistent excellent quality bullets from a bottom pour. You have to find the right flow rate for the mold and alloy you're using first of all. Then, I pour using the contact, or pressure, method. I put the sprue plate against the spout, open the valve and count to five or whatever. You can hear, or feel, the mold fill and the air bleed out. Next, while still holding the valve open, lower the sprue plate from the spout about a quarter inch or so and let the lead flow until you have a puddle about the size of a nickle, maybe a quarter. That's all there is to it. No black magic, incantations, secrets, anything. There are people who say that's just too slow, takes too long to make a boolit. Well, do you want quantity or quality? The two are not always compatible.

Jack,

I have several Hoch molds, including a couple that Dick made for me before he sold the business to Dave. Dave did a good job on the last mold he made for me, but it's been a long time. I assume the quality is still the same. You can't go wrong with a nose pour bullet. They are so much easier to get to shoot well than a base pour mold. I have some really good base pour molds but it just seems to me that its way easier to get a good grouping load with a nose pour mold. That said, it won't make a tournament winner out of a rusty Brown Bess. You have to have a good rifle to begin with. In my old 8.15 I could get five shot groups in .3 moa all day long breech seated. You won't regret getting a good nose pour mold. Take care of it and it will outlast your grandchildren. With the Hoch molds, when you find the right temperature and the right flow rate, you can pour thousands of bright shiny boolits that all weigh within a tenth +/- of norm very easily.

In general, in most of these threads about getting good quality boolits out of any mold, I find little discussion about FLOW RATE with bottom pour furnaces. That is the real key. You are contact pouring with a ladle and that works beautifully most of the time, especially with boolits under 35 caliber (I've never used a ladle with a boolit over 35 caliber and have no experience there) so why not do it that way with a bottom pour furnace? I still think I get better results with the bottom pour than I did with the ladle for the simple reason that I can control head pressure better for a given boolit. I still have a few 457125 (I forgot the Lyman number, the 500 grain Govt boolit), I'll dig them out some time and weigh them. Very consistent.

Now, everything I've just written concerns getting tournament quality boolits for rifles. Pistol boolits, they're a different kettle of fish altogether. (:>)

Cheers all,

Phil

[runfiverun]

i think wayne got it right.
with the larger stuff over 400 grs a ladle seems to be the way to go.
and from looking at the pictures he is right on the verge of seeing "oxide inclusions".
if i were shooting at 1,000 i would look at a set of locking mold handles from cabin tree to keep the mold at a consistent closure.
there are a lot of other things i would do also but that is where i would start.

[montana_charlie]

That fifty caliber bullet in the link I posted weighs over 700 grains...and it was cast using a dipper.
CM

[leftiye]

I'm with Phil. Bottom pour only. Cast anything, good boolit. He's right about flow rate. I never even thought about such a thang as problems casting large boolits until I read about it here.

I can't even stand to think about trying to cast with all of that dross floating on top of my ladle! Maybe with one of those ladles with the tube to the bottom of the cup, and a hole to sink into the melt to fill the ladle.

If you can't get your mold hot enough by raising the temperature of the melt, try incorporating a mold heater into your casting technique. A hotplate can be used. Works really well and even better with two or more moulds.

[Down South]

Jack,
I hope that 'critical comment' doesn't make you mad.

Your picture can be magnified quite a bit if one keeps clicking on it. Under that enlargement, a number of 'imperfections' appear.
To start, the corners of the driving bands (most of them) don't seem very sharp. Then, there are little dents and divots scattered around...maybe even something that could be a wrinkle in the middle driving band on the center bullet.

The bases don't seem to be real uniform between the three samples, with a 'wavy' edge on the right-hand bullet...and the length of the gas check area seems longer on the center bullet than the one on the left.

Yes, some of these 'criticisms' might be incorrect. Lighting and contrast can make a viewer get a wrong impression of what he is seeing. But when you see a halfway well-taken picture of a 'perfect' bullet, you know immediately that it is perfect.
An example would be the fifty caliber honey in the middle of this picture from FPMIII.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/e76ca99b.jpg

If you have to stop to wonder if this or that is a flaw...it is almost never a 'perfect' one.

I might load and shoot bullets like yours if I was testing a lube to see if it leaves soft fouling, or to let the neighbor bang away at a gong. But they don't appear to be the kind for those days when weighed bullets are on the menu.

I'd recommend more heat or more tin...or maybe both.

CM

I completely agree with Charlie and noticed the same things about the boolits when I viewed the close up before reading Charlie’s post.
I think you either need more heat or tin or both for better fill out. I think the weight variance will be much less then.

[runfiverun]

tin doesn't seem to be the answer for the larger boolits either.
some have reported more problems by the addition of tin.
iirc charlie and i [and others]had this same conversation some time ago and the ladle for anything over 400 or so is the way to go.

[WildmanJack]

Hey guys,
Been away for the weekend and just got bacck home. I remember reading a thread about ladle pouring larger boolets, and have done that since reading the thread. I tried the bottom pour a few times and the boolets came out really ugly. lots of oxidation intrusion, badly rounded edges. So I only bottom pour for my .45 ACP rounds and 38 rounds. Everything else gets the ladle, slower but much better boolets.
I called Hoch mold and ordered a new mold on Thursday, spoke with dave and gave him my barrel measurements. So he said it would take a couple of weeks to get a mold, so I'll just wait.. Sure hopes that solves my problem.
I do wonder why I get the oxidation inclusions though, I flux and stir with a wooden stick, then skim off the dross, maybe I'll try the cat litter trick and see if that helps..
Thanks for all the input guys, I sure appreciate it..
Oh yeah, meant to tell you, I made a contact a an indoor range, lady says she has about 28,000 lb. of rabge lead that she wants to get rid of. She can't afford to pay someone to pick it up. Now How the hell do I get 28,000 lbs of lead home?? Then do I really want to pay that much in Propane to melt it down and clean it? Then again, would I live long enough to melt that muchc lead down??? Oh yeah... The best part, IT"S FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:drinks:
Jack