Swaging problems and mistakes

[ETG]

I made my first 25 or so bullets out of 22rf jackets without too many problems (after trashing about 30 learning how to adjust the dies). Loaded them up and they shot well. So tonight I made about 150 and it looks like about 1 out of 10 folded over at the tip instead of drawing to a point. All cases were annealed and prepped the same. The shape of the bullet looks ok but you can see the fold. Can you use these for plinking? How do I stop the folding? My oven only goes up to 550 so I put it on self clean for an hour - they were definitely annealed. I'm making 55gr bullets using Blackmon dies and his press.

I also made the mistake of swaging the bullets backwards twice. It made a cool looking round nose FMJ with an open base Anybody ever make or shoot any like this?
Thanks.

[shooterg]

I've only done a few thousand, but it seems to me that all .22 brass ain't exactly the same. Are the visible folds mostly one headstamp ? Maybe that brand neeeded a little more heat ?
I admit to being anal enough to segregate the cases by headstamp before annealing. For me, looks like Rem brass cleans up the best initially, Win SuperX weigh slightly less than Federal, CCI has a LOT of residue/etc. Love to have a small heat treatment furnace for really consistent annealing, but mostly do the propane torch thing in batches. Surprisingly little difference at 100 with the wrinkled "seconds", I use 'em for offhand practice. I do believe you are now addicted - ain't this fun ?

[ETG]

Fun and frustrating. The folds were across brands (Win, Rem, and Fed). When I annealed the cases almost turned silver - when cooled they have a brownish tint that is almost impossible to get off. I found out that once I turned the over on self clean and heated the cases for an hour the door stayed locked for about two hours after I turned it off :-( I had cleaned the cases after derimming before I annealed. Also, is it normal for the tip to not be perfectly square but one side is slightly taller than the other - don't think I'm explaining this very well..

[shooterg]

I tried the oven once, but couldn't get it open until AFTER my wife got home - she doesn't think I should be cooking brass anymore ! So I'm propane torch only until I find/get access to a heat treatment source. Some of the folks here have "automatic" annealers for centerfire necks - maybe someone will cobble one together for RF !
I get less culls now than when I started - still some tips do seem to be a little "wop-sided" - I throw them in the "seconds" container. I may try the meplat uniformer on 'em at some point and see if there is any more accuracy potential there, although at 100/200 yards I'd think consistent weight is more important.

[454PB]

I've found I can minimize the nose folds by slowing down at the last few ten thousandths of the nose forming stroke. With my dies (Corbin), you can actually feel the nose deform and fold over. By slowing way down at the very end of the stroke, it reduces the problem.

I too segregated the ones with deformed nose, but learned that they group just as well as the "perfect" ones.

[ETG]

I did that towards the end - I was going as fast as I could then tried slowing down and it did reduce the number that folded over but did not eliminate it

[JohnM]

I've found Lapua brass is best and haven't had any problems with folds. SK is also made by Lapua....

Some other brands split while swaging the rim off


John

[MIBULLETS]

I have used Remington, Eley, CCI, wolf, winchester, and federal cases. I prefer using them in the order I listed them. Federal cases are the worst I have used. They stick to the punch a lot and have a lot of priming residue.

I normally anneal my cases in my electric self cleaning oven. I think it must be around 600 F for temperature for 30 minutes. I rarely have a nose fold over anymore. I am using a Corbin 6S point form die. If yours is a 7S or more it could cause more folded jackets. Like 454PB, I can feel it when it happens.

As far as the backward bullets go, you can actually make a FMJ bullet like that. First form the nose (don't try to get a real sharp point though, the lead will squirt through the jacket), then turn the bullet around and just push it in far enough to start rounding the base, then put it back in the way it was the first time to finish folding the jacket edges over the base. It works OK not great, but you have to have the lead level in the jacket just right for it to work, don't try to hit a certain bullet weight.

Dan

[BT Sniper]

Hey guys, I have not made .223 bullets from 22lr but some day I will. I have annealed alot of brass though and got my fair share of that "brownish" tint brass you guys talk about. I have been able to remove it by leaving the brass cases in the vibrating tumbler overnight and sometimes longer. I have mixed in every posible brass cleaning or polishing/rubbing compond in with my wallnut media and have got the cases back to the shiny orginal brass color.

For some fun you could pickel those brown tinted brass and they will get a copper plating that will have a true copper color almost pinkish in color. If you do pickel the brass and don't like the slight copper plating again the tumbler will remove it if you leave the brass in there long enough.

Good luck and good shooting,

BT

[ETG]

I was thinking of tumbling them in aluminum oxide - 70 grit. Or will this remove too much material?

[Hickory]

I have been making .224 cal bullets from 22 rf cases since the mid 70's.
After a lot of trial and error, I have come up with this method for dealing with the nose of the boolit "fold over",

Uniform anneling is the key. I've made myself a fixture for holding the 22 jackets and turning with an electric drill in front of the flame of a propane torch. The fixture is a brass rod (do not use aluminum) 1/2" in diameter, 3'' long with a hole drilled in the end and the other end reduced to 3/8 ". The hole in mine is .275 deep X .225 +or- diameter.

Another key to annealing is to not over do it. Over heating the jacket will burn the zink out of the brass. This is a long and tedious process but I get good results.
You will want to do small batchs until you figure out how much heat is needed to anneal the mouth of the jacket. For myself when the jacket -just- changes from the golden brass color to a slight brown color seems to be all you need.

[MIBULLETS]

I would not use anything too abrasive. It may find it's way into your dies and scratch them.

I use the larger sized walnut shell for tumbling my 22 case jackets. It seems to work a bit quicker than the fine stuff. You can also use it for the finished bullets. The fine stuff will find it's way into the open tip of your bullets.

[ETG]

I was only planning on tumbling the finished bullets.

[bohica2xo]

Do not tumble bullets in 70 grit Abrasive!

We lap hardened steel by rolling a brass lap in some aluminum oxide grit before putting it in the bore. The abrasive pounded into your bullets would work the same way...

I have made a few dies in my career, and derimmed a few pounds of 22 rimfire jackets. While my dies will de-rim an as fired case, I always anneal before the derimming.

I do a full anneal, in my drawing oven - it is usually idling around 800f anyway. The rule of thumb is to bring copper alloys to 50% of the Kelvin melting point of the alloy for an hour. Higher temps require less time. I prefer to use 65%, and about 20 minutes. A dull red with a propane torch will also work - hold it red for 3 to 5 seconds.

It is difficult to replicate the results of a partial anneal, because you have no idea where you started from - and a self clean oven is not a precision heat source.

The reason for annealing as a first step is to get all of the brass to the same place. A full anneal does this. Then when you cold work the case by drawing it down, they are a uniform hardness.

I never have any trouble making bullets this way, and it takes a lot less effort to de-rim the brass. Even a 22WMR goes through the die with little effort.

B.

[BT Sniper]

B,

Your awesome man. I am sure you have forgoten more then I know about this hobby. Thanks for your imput. I need to find me one of those hot oven to bake some brass in. I'm not really involved with this thread at the moment but I know at some point in the near future I will be reading over it all again.

On a side note I cut down another 1k of 30-06 brass. Worked great and made very good jackets for the 44. Hope to get the AMP out for some shooting soon.

Have a good weekend guys,

BT Sniper