Home made die, an unusable success

[BT Sniper]

Hey guys got back to the friends shop yesterday and sat down in front of the lathe for the second time. I salvaged a piece of scrap 1" steel rod to practice with and after a quick lesson on cutting threads on a piece of alunimum he turned me loose.

I spent an hour or so drawining up plans in autocad for a .458 swage die. Basicly copied the CH design in function. Everything looked correct so away I went.

I found a rotery file that matched the diminsions of a 458 bullet profile and was actually .460 so a quick touch brought it down to about .456 or so. After boreing out the hole and boring the profile with the rotary file everthing looked good. Dimentions was just under size allowing for a final polish to size of .458. Well I got a little happy with the polish and managed to overshoot to .464.

Lessons learned. I did make a pretty nice bullet with it and was very impressed with the overall outcome of the die. I will perfect it soon as a little closer attention to final dia should solve my problems. Maybe I will fix this die up for .500 bullets. Anybody making .500 bullets in a 7/8th dia die?

Well I must say it was alot of fun and how amazing it is to be able to make your own tools and bullets. I have said before that I thought a degree of magic was involved with making dies and bullets. Now I am fealing a bit like a magician:mrgreen:. Still don't have it all figured out and making riffle bullets is my main goal here. Don't have the know how yet to put some dies together. I'm keeping at it though.

Good shooting,

BT

P.S. Pic is of my die with ch .429 die in background and oversized 240 grain .458 bullet.

[phil218b]

That looks great! The only thing I see can be wrong is that you will get the tool illness and need a lathe at home with a milling machine to help keep the cost down on projectiles, it is a serious virus that leads to bigger shop and cash flow restriction, but the end result is " I can make this bullet for next to nothing", which is justification for a good hobby. Good job keep it up.
Phil

[badgeredd]

BT,

It looks like you are getting the hang of this machining thing. Might I suggest that the next time, you use 2 rotary files. One for initial roughing and one for finishing. And you have seen the wisdom of leaving a bit extra for polish.

I was wondering if you know what steel type you used. And if you used a cutting fluid. And if you cleaned chips often.
]
The machining thing DOES give one great satisfaction when it comes out right. MAGICAL for sure!

Nice job on your first try.

EDD

[oldtoolsniper]

I have to find someone to teach me! That is awesome.

[Danth]

BT - Could you explain "a quick touch"? I'm not sure how you brought down the diameter of the file. Great looking bullet. I've got to give it a try. Thanks, Danth

[willyboy]

I could probably use those in my .45-70.

[BT Sniper]

I think the challenge is finding a machine to practice on, I'm lucky as my friend has the lathe and mill. In turn I will make all the bullets we could posssibly need.

EDD, I did not think about 2 rotary files but it makes sence.I did use alot of motor oil for cutting fluid and cleaned out the chips often. The problem I had was not getting all the chips out of the hole bored in the steel. The idea was to first see if I could bore the chamber and profile of the bullet nose befor attempting hours of work on anything else. So all the chips built up in frount of the nose shape in the little excess space from the pilot hole I drilled first.

Next time I will cut the die to length and bore out the top of the die first. Maybe this will allow the chips to move foward rather then bunch up. I'll also do a better job of keeping the file teeth clean.

I don't know the type of steel. It was scrap I found and friend thought it looked like "cold rolled" typical steel. I don't know though. It worked for practice.

So I'll need some more study time but how does one polish out a couple thou from the inside of the bore to get a perfect sized and round chamber? I will try some solid brass of proper size to polish with next. All I did with these dies is use some Flitz on a wood dowl chucked in the lathe. Got it nice and smooth but either my technique or the flitz polish took alittle to much.

Thanks guys I'll keep my progress updated. To bad the machine is a half hour drive away. Can't get out as much as I would like, daddy day care seems to be a full time job with alot of overtime.

BT

[badgeredd]

I think the challenge is finding a machine to practice on, I'm lucky as my friend has the lathe and mill. In turn I will make all the bullets we could posssibly need. Protect the relationship:-D:-D, a friend with machines is a friend indeed!!!!

EDD, I did not think about 2 rotary files but it makes sence.I did use alot of motor oil for cutting fluid and cleaned out the chips often. OK...I suggest that you get some machining lube...Tap Magic...Cool Tool or just some stinky black cuttin/threading oil. Motor oil has a tendancy to lube the surface of your cut and cause gouges when it starts cutting again. Also if if is sliding over the surface and then cutting, I could well be "work hardening" the surface slightly.The problem I had was not getting all the chips out of the hole bored in the steel. LIKELY the problem! An acid brush will help if you don't have some compressed air to blow the chips out with.The idea was to first see if I could bore the chamber and profile of the bullet nose befor attempting hours of work on anything else. Well now you know...cool huh? So all the chips built up in frount of the nose shape in the little excess space from the pilot hole I drilled first.

Next time I will cut the die to length and bore out the top of the die first. Maybe this will allow the chips to move foward rather then bunch up. I'll also do a better job of keeping the file teeth clean. EXCELLENT idea.

I don't know the type of steel. It was scrap I found and friend thought it looked like "cold rolled" typical steel. Cold rolled steel, though easy to machine, can be a PITA to get a good finish on/in. It tends to tear and gouge with fine cuts.I don't know though. It worked for practice. CRS is great for practice...and again it is free machining so you can get the hang of the process.

So I'll need some more study time but how does one polish out a couple thou from the inside of the bore to get a perfect sized and round chamber? One was is to use a light oil with wet/dry paper in a wooden stick. Another is to find a Cratex stick. An still another is to use a fine lapping compound on a piece of wooden stick, OR a piece of brass. Oh yeah, keep your RPMS a bit slower while polishing too. I will try some solid brass of proper size to polish with next. All I did with these dies is use some Flitz on a wood dowl chucked in the lathe. BTW..I'd guess without seeing it, that the tearing I was talking about is why you went big quickly. Danged CRS!!!!Got it nice and smooth but either my technique or the flitz polish took alittle to much. Flitz is VERY fine grit so I'd still go with the tearing of the finished surface. Another thing I just thought of, perhaps you were running the machine a bit fast. Slow is almost always better when machining for finish.

Thanks guys I'll keep my progress updated. To bad the machine is a half hour drive away. Can't get out as much as I would like, daddy day care seems to be a full time job with alot of overtime.

BT

Keep at it and practice as much as you can. You'll be amazed at how quickly the basics become entrenced. Then you'll be amazed at all of the little things you learn as you go that make this "MAGIC" seem a lot less like "WIZARDRY".
Edd

[BT Sniper]

Danth,

The rotary file was allready so close at .460 that I just chucked it in a drill press and lightly touched it as it was turning with a dremmel tool. As I measure it now the largest dia I can find on the high sides of the teeth is .458. I intended to touch this rotary file up to final size a bit smaller in the lathe but I allready had the bored out die in the lathe and didn't want to loose my zero. I suppose if there is a high or low side to this rotary file that I have made it would still cut a full .460 as it could just be out of round even though the largest measured dia is .458. Again I'll mount this in the lathe and square it up to a slightly smaller dia.

A quick question to those that know, how much larger will a hole be if the cutting tool used is .xxx? Example a reamer measured at .458 I'm sure can't be expected to bore a perfect .458 hole, it will turn out slightly larger correct? So maybe start with my reamer/rotary file at .455 or so?

Yes bullets for a 45-70 is my goal here. All ready have the cores swaged at 340 grains just waiting to seat in a 65 grain 45ACP jacket with rim milled off.

[BT Sniper]

Edd,

Many thanks to your advise. All you guys on this site are a world of great information and motivate me to take on these projects. I know others will follow.

I am very much interested in "WIZARDRY":mrgreen:

I'll incorperate your wisdom into my next attempt. The final polish ideas was fairly close to what I used with a wooden dowl and flitz. I probably had the RPMs to fast then, what is the reason for slow RPMs when polishing? Is this just to allow less material to be removed or does it effect the quality of the finish?

What grade steel will be best for final die? I feel that if I was able to get the finish on this scrap piece it would have worked out just fine to make a few thousand bullets from. I am trying to keep cost down and a swage die (minus insides) from CH is only $50 so a high grade expensive piece of steel might not be cost effective. For the .458 that is not offered it is obviously a big savings.

"CRS" I got a good laugh from this as I thought it was a symptom of old age.

Thanks Guys I'm still up for more advise from anyone else that would care to chime in. I'll do my homework and try to find what info I can but this first hand help is always appreciated.

When this .458 die works out I plan to follow up with all the popular pistol calibers. Some day I hope to make a die for a .338 riffle bullet and the .223 from 22lr set of dies.

BT

[phil218b]

Check your pm
Phil

[gjemba]

Where did you get the copper jackets?

Gary

[BT Sniper]

About 100 jackets came with .458 die that friend bought from shooters shack. It seems these dies make bullets a bit large as the 458 comes out at .460 and the 451 at .453. They are for half jacket bullets and the reason I'm making new dies.

After thinking about my succesful mishap with the oversized .458 die I made I think my next die will be an attempt at .357 so If I screw it up I have severial more calibers to bore it out to.

Another question for the knowledgable. Is a bullet for a 357 mag .357 or .358?

[Houndog]

I'll tell you a little trick I learned from Ferris Pendell (co-inventer of the PPC) about polshing a die. Use a piece of leather soaked with a paste made of cutting oil and lapping compound. The leather will readily conform to the inside of the die and give you a mirror finish while maintaining your die demensions. It's a SLOW process, but you can "sneak up" on your finished demensions without overshooting what you want.

BTW: I like a steel called Air die for making swaging or reloading dies. It hardens easily, holds demensions VERY well during heat treatment and doesn't scale up nearly as bad as some of the other tool steels during the hardening process. Be sure you finish your die to final demensione AFTER heat treatment! Leave at least .0005-.0006 for your final finish!

[felix]

I am no machinist, but I would tend to think you can hone the die as slowly as required with a soft lead slug that was formed by melting the lead into the die. The slug should be no softer than required to shrink enough to apply some grit/polish/whatever. ... felix

[BT Sniper]

Houndog,

I've heard Air die mentioned before and will check into it. I had along the same thoughts as the leather in a wet piece of wood and it expanding to fit the inside of the die. I'll try the wet leather trick.

Thanks guys. I'll be attempting a .357 die soon I hope.

[teddyblu]

I believe that air die is the same as what is called air hardening steel can be found at enco,msc,and other mail order places. I use 01 drill rod for my dies and have no problems.
heat treats at just above red heat 1550-1600 f warpage is not a problem with a die 1 1/2 inches long

01 drill rod can be obtained at a place called FASTENAL and are located in most larger cities.

larrys

[BT Sniper]

Larrys,

I have a Fastenal just up the street. You'll have to help me out here. I don't know what 01 drill rod is but I would guess maybe 1" dia? About how much is it is you remember and how long of piece can I get. I'll check myself of course but can't get out of the house till weekend.

Felix,

I have used that technique with boolit molds. I suppose it is worth a try. I don't know if it will work or not. Thanks for the ideas.

[felix]

Make sure the die is hot first! 350F sounds like a minimum for good lead fillout. Might need some tin in that lead too for that temp. Well worth the games, not only to get the job done, but to tell the board which method seemed to work best. Flitz or Simichrome is what I use to expand seating dies using loaded rounds. ... felix

[Adam10mm]

I don't know what 01 drill rod is but I would guess maybe 1" dia? About how much is it is you remember and how long of piece can I get.
O1 drill rod is alloyed steel O1 tool steel and is commonly used for taps, reamers, drill bits, etc. It makes good shellholders and punches too. It's about $18 per foot online.

[blaser.306]

Just a question while everyone is on the subject , I was going to take a stab at making some dies (starting with the simple one first) core swage . And I was going to use hydraulic push rod stock for the body of the die . My thought process being that if you were to make the o/d 1 1/2 " in diameter you may be able to get away with a little less critical heat treating . I have already tried to drill the shaft and it appears to machine quite nicely . anybody have any thoughts or input on the matter?

[Red River Rick]

O1 drill rod is alloyed steel O1 tool steel and is commonly used for taps, reamers, drill bits, etc.

OH! Perhaps in the uncivilized world, or China.

O1 is not used for making taps, reamers, etc. It would be the poorest choice of material to use. All most all high grade taps, reamers, etc are made from High Speed Steel, and not O1.

Any of the "Air-Cooled" tool steels, D2, A2 would be far better suited for these needs, as well as for making swaging tooling. Some of the "Oil-Quenching" steels will work just as well. The disadvantage is the fact that they have to quenched in oil as oppossed to to just "Cooling" in still air, which is more stable.

RRR

[Adam10mm]

I never said it was recommended to use for those applications, just that it is commonly used. There is a difference.

[NoZombies]

Just to Clarify to everyone, O in O1 steel does indeed come from the fact that it's an oil quenching steel, like W1 is a water quenching steel, and A1 is an air hardening steel.

There are a lot of steels that use these mediums as quenchants, and don't have the designations of Ox Wx or Ax, but the ones that do, are really easy to identify.

I personally have a stock of S7 that I use for punches and such (the S stands for shock resistant) it's an air hardening steel as well, and would probably do great for dies.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks for all the help here guys. I'm learning in leaps and bounds at the moment. Had no idea as to the terms used to identify the different steel. now I got O W A and S figured out with all the recamended uses. So what does the numerical value (O1,A1,S7,etc.) stand for?

I am reworking my .458 design to allow for a bit more room for error and allow more to polish or lap to final dia. May get a chance this weekend for another attempt.

So again on the $$$ issue regarding these different grades of steel. I am not going into production of making bullets here and many of the pistol caliber bullet dies are avialble from CH reasonable but what grade steel should I buy and from where to make these swage dies for producing say 5-10 thousand bullets max per caliber with the idea of saving $. On the high end what grade would give a life time of use yet still allow ease of machining? Two different questions there. I can see if the $ is not that much different I would obviously like to be rewarded for my time with a die that is going to produce quality bullets and last a long time.

Thanks guys. I'm going to keep at it.

BT

[NoZombies]

Numeric values are even more obscure than the rest of the nomenclature, It's generally better to just research each type than to try and figure out what the name means... Way too many alloys for me to keep track of, I found half a dozen that do 90% of what I need, then when something comes up beyond the capabilities of my "goto" steels, I have to hit up google too!

If I was in your place, I'd probably find some a2 from an online supplier, it'll take a better polish (in my experience anyways) than d2 will, though d2 is "semi stainless" with about 12% chromium. Either one gets plenty hard for these purposes. Grain structure comes into play here, and is a bit beyond the scope of the thread...

Realistically, in the small quantities you'll need to make a few dies, even a steel that's 50% more expensive, but will give you a better end result, should be well worth it, but do your research on what's available, and how to work with it.

A few things to consider: Be sure that you get "fully annealed" steel for machining ease, look up the heat treat procedures for the steel you choose, and choose something based on what you have available to you, and how well you can accomplish the HT.

When you're machining an air hardening steel, it can work harden very easily if you don't have really good cooling, and then you're trying to cut something as hard as an HSS Cutting tool. So, think as close to flooding the piece as possible.

Do all of your heat treat (including a temper cycle if necessary) before the final polish, but try to have it darned close before the HT, otherwise you'll hate yourself when you're trying to polish through scale on a hardened piece of steel.

You can PM me specific questions if you want.

[NoZombies]

By The way, "Airdie" is one of the major companies trade names for D2 steel.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have to find someone to teach me! That is awesome.

Ditto!

[turbo1889]

Since this thread seems to have attracted several individuals with metallurgical knowledge I'd like to ask a question that is some what inline with the topic under discussion in the OP of this thread:

How does grade #5 & #8 bolt material fair in this discussion. In other words take a 1" grade #8 bolt and use the straight unthreaded portion as the raw material to cut one self a 7/8x14 reloading die to fit a standard press. How well will that steel hold up compared to buying rod stock in some of the previously mentioned grades? Same question for the grade 5 bolts. We are talking reloading dies, push through sizing dies, and pure lead only swage dies here.

[Storydude]

My 7/8X14 cut down bolt made a dandy de-rimming die...

I"m sure the Drill rod is a much better steel, bu doe low-pressure applications I feel the bolts work just fine....you may have to heat treat them though for longevity.

[Jim_Fleming]

I can't say for sure, since I've only worked with metal, as in machining it, but the metallurgists would know for sure... But... From what I've learned those G5 & G8 bolts probably won't be hard enough. G5 for sure isn't hard enough, but I can't say definitively about G8. but I don't think so.

This is in reference for making swaging dies. Now for the other tools turbo has asked about, it's worth a try, for sure. I don't think the die would burst or anything dramatic, I'd guess they'll just wear out, and start making your bullets oversized, etc.

De-rimming, base guard dies, etc, I think they'd work quite nicely. Full length resizing, I wouldn't trust to hold size for any great length of time. At first sure, they'll work nicely, but over the long haul, I don't think they'd hold up...

But who knows, I could be all wet...?:drinks:

Take Care,

Jim



Since this thread seems to have attracted several individuals with metallurgical knowledge I'd like to ask a question that is some what inline with the topic under discussion in the OP of this thread:

How does grade #5 & #8 bolt material fair in this discussion. In other words take a 1" grade #8 bolt and use the straight unthreaded portion as the raw material to cut one self a 7/8x14 reloading die to fit a standard press. How well will that steel hold up compared to buying rod stock in some of the previously mentioned grades? Same question for the grade 5 bolts. We are talking reloading dies, push through sizing dies, and pure lead only swage dies here.

[NoZombies]

Well, the problem with using grade 8 bolts (wouldn't even bother with grade 5's) is that they aren't made of a specific material, but rather, are made to maintain a specific shear strength threshold. Meaning, they might be great material, but they might just make the cutoff, either way though, they won't be hard enough to maintain accurate dimensions for any critical application where pressure or friction will be applied. (or at least, they aren't likely to!)

For the kinds of volumes we're talking about, it really would probably be better to just order a small quantity of known material, order it annealed so you can machine it easily, then perform a reasonable heat treat (or even pay for professional HT)

For one thing, machining the annealed material will be easier than trying to machine a hardened bolt, and the $2 you'd save by using the bolt will be more than made up for in tool life!

[badgeredd]

I have a few special purpose dies made from Grade 8 bolts. First, Grade 8 bolts are tough! But they aren't really hard, guessing I'd say they are in the low 40s for a Rockwell...perhaps even the high 30s on the C scale. If one uses lube they seem to work well for a push-thru dies for limited sizing.
I'd guess that grade 5 aren't tough enough to last very long, but that is a guess.

BT,
I suggest that if you do use O1 for a die, you draw it back some before you use it. To draw the hardness down some and temper the steel you can heat the piece again (that has been polished) with a propane torch until the piece JUST starts to change color to a "straw" color. Be careful when doing this because to much heat can take you to far too fast. A straw color on the polished metal is what you are after.

S7 is trade named Chisel-air by one maker. it is great for chisels and punches and should be double drawn to stabilize the grain structure and make it less prone to cracking in sharp corners. An excellent steel that is very dimensionally stable in the hardening process.

I would likely use a steel that is used a lot in plastic injection mold making if I were going for a hardened die. The steel is H13 (air hardening type) which retains its hardness in multiple cycles of heat and cold. It is a "hot work" steel with fairly high chromium content. Again it should be tempered.

Edd