Lead in an ACP? what about Ported Barrels?

[oleycow]

OK guys here are my questions

I have a friend who casts lead .45 boolits, He is offereing me some but here is what I question and or don't know

#1 I reload for my Dad's ACP i have only ever used Jacketed lead, Is moulded lead safe for an ACP? (Kimber Ultra Compact)?

#2 I Reload for my 454 raging bull (ported barrel) again only Jacketed rounds so far, is lead safe in a ported Barrel? Heard recently that lead is Bad in ported Barrels

#3 now that I am reloading for both the 454 and ACP is there a Boolit out there that could work for both? So that I could buy in bulk and save $ I realize that the casull would have to be lightened for a boolit to work in both. I also understand that my casull needs to have the crimping groove. Maybe the better question is can you shoot a casull boolit out of an ACP? with the crimping groove?

I am very new to the ACP

Oleycow

[DLCTEX]

There are so many variables possible that it is impossible to give a definitive answer. The 45 ACP uses a 451 or 452 bullet, but the individual gun may accept a 454 bullet and function ok. With a lead bullet, there is little danger of over pressure using a bullet a few thousandths oversize.The crimp groove may permit seating to a length that will function in both guns, but it depends on the bullet selected. You did not specify a weight, but the ACP will need nothing larger than about 230 gr. A 255 gr and larger can be used, but it requires stronger springs andrecoil buffers and still is hard on locking lugs.
The 454 really calls for 255 gr. bullets of a harder alloy and using gas checks unless you are going for a plinking load, then you can use the lighter bullets with reduced velocities and no gas checks. The disadvantage you have by not casting your own is not having the ability to customize the alloy to your needs, but having to accept what your supplier produces. Some custom casters, like Bullshop, ( find him at the bottom of this page)will cast what you need, within reason. The 454 may need to be measured to find what diameter the chamber and barrel will accept. It is necessary to get a good fit in it to provide accuracy without leading. As to the porting, there should be no problem when using a proper sized , lubed, and alloy bullet. I use hardened Wheel weight bullets in a ported Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70, and others here use them in many other guns without a problem. I'm sure others will advise on the question and help you more specifically. DALE

[20nickels]

If they both like .452 boolits you could use anything that the 1911 likes to eat (230gr. RNL's?) in your 454. Velocity is the catch. You will have to keep your 454 loads to a minimum.

[practical_man]

Dale gives good advice. I load a lot of 45 ACP ammo and a little 45 colt (which is closely related to your 454).

In the 45ACP I mostly use .452 diameter cast bullets of varying weights and styles. I never use heavier than 230 grain. It works great.

In 45 Colt I use 250 grain .454 diameter cast. Nothing heavier or lighter, though you could. Seems like you'd want a pretty hard alloy and a gas check for the 454.

I've had no problem with lead bullets from a ported pistol. You have to clean out the ports now and then, but it's not much trouble. It's no more trouble than the rest of the cleaning chore. Don't worry too much about it.

As Dale pointed out, bullet fit is the most important thing. Slug your barrels, and for the Taurus also slug the cylinder. Get bullets that fit. Cheaper bullets that don't properly fit are false economy.

Many places will let you combine different bullet styles to meet quantity breaks or save shipping.

You're on your way to a great adventure. Read a lot, ask questions, and enjoy the ride.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day All
I had lead shave out of the ports on my 44mag and cut my cobbers face next to me. So be careful, I've stopped using it where there's a chance of hitting someone with shavings. Imagine if I'd hit his eye???????
Juddy

[SciFiJim]

#1 I reload for my Dad's ACP i have only ever used Jacketed lead, Is moulded lead safe for an ACP? (Kimber Ultra Compact)?

I shoot cast with my Kimber UCII without a problem. I use the Lee 452-200-RF tumble lubed with LLA and seated to the crimp groove. No lead issues at all. My pet load for it is 4.5 gr of bullseye. Easy recoil and the most accurate load for my pistol.

[oleycow]

Any recomendations on a purchased non-jacketed lead bullet?

Brand?
I would think 230 gr.

[SciFiJim]

Missouri Bullet Company (http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php) has good deals.

[Freightman]

I have a 45 colt 2.25" Taurus five shot with ports and have put literally 1000's of lead through it with no lead in barrel or ports.

[windrider919]

I had a 454 Cas and also shoot 45ACP. I tried to economize with just one bullet but just could not because of the difference in bore size. Face it, they are both 45s but each requires a bullet to fit the bore and if not it is inaccurate. Each also has a bullet weight range that suits it and with these two cartridges they just barely overlap. The heaviest 45ACP is about the lightest in the Cas. And it probably will not shot well there. My Cas most definably preferred the heaver slugs if it was to shoot accurately. As per only store bought, a Lee mould is less than $20.00 and will cast thousands of bullets. The price of a single box of 500 lead factory bullets (which are swaged of soft lead and usually lead the barrel unless fired in light loads) will buy several moulds. Just compare prices and see.

As per porting a simi-auto. I had a Springfield Arms 45 ported. It really did do what was claimed in taming recoil and muzzle rise. BUT, it spit lead shavings out that would tear though cardboard held 2 feet over the gun. and the noise was much louder, bringing complaints from my adjoining shooters along the line. We shoot under a metal awning that covers the firing line and the sound, instead of going downrange (so to speak) was going up and reflecting off the metal cover and blasting the other shooters. Not so noticeable in the open but severe under cover. The ports stayed pretty much clear but because the slide moves over the ports before they have stopped venting gas it left lots of crud inside the slide. I tested by not cleaning and by 400 rounds I started having jams. And 500 round a day was what I was shooting in practice then. My final answer; in a defense weapon, go for it, it works. But for a target weapon it might not be such a good idea. My ported 45 was banned by request at my range by the way. Note; I lost between 50 and 80 FPS velocity in the ported barrel too.

[454PB]

I have a Taurus RB in .454 Casull. The ports are not a problem. They are useless in my opinion, but not a problem. Boolit lube will tend to build up in the ports, but is fairly easy to remove.

As to a boolit that can be used in both the .454 and .45 ACP, it can be done. I size both to .452", and my Taurus will not accept anything larger, the throats are too tight.

Years ago I used the Lyman 255 grain 454190 sized to .452" in my .45 auto and my .45 Colt revolvers. It should work fine for your application, although both situations would be a compromise.

[geargnasher]

OK guys here are my questions

I have a friend who casts lead .45 boolits, He is offereing me some but here is what I question and or don't know

#1 I reload for my Dad's ACP i have only ever used Jacketed lead, Is moulded lead safe for an ACP? (Kimber Ultra Compact)?

#2 I Reload for my 454 raging bull (ported barrel) again only Jacketed rounds so far, is lead safe in a ported Barrel? Heard recently that lead is Bad in ported Barrels

#3 now that I am reloading for both the 454 and ACP is there a Boolit out there that could work for both? So that I could buy in bulk and save $ I realize that the casull would have to be lightened for a boolit to work in both. I also understand that my casull needs to have the crimping groove. Maybe the better question is can you shoot a casull boolit out of an ACP? with the crimping groove?

I am very new to the ACP

Oleycow

#1 Countless thousands of us cast and shoot for the old .45 ACPwith excellent results. Leading is not a life-ending problem, especially in an auto where you can dump the barrel out and have it squeaky-clean with a Chore-Boy pad in about 10 seconds. See my thread question ".45 ACP leading badly, please help!" as I had a stubborn leading problem whose fix was different from any other leading problem I had in other guns, but a common fix. Thanks again to those here who helped.

#2 Don't know for sure, as worst I could see maybe a little lube fouling or possibly some lead dust/gas depositing in the ports, but I seriously doubt it would be more than a slight cleaning problem.

#3 I dont' know what you call a "Casull boolit" but you really can't shoot a 300 grain flat-nose boolit out of a Kimber 1911. For one, the ogive may cause feeding problems, and oal may not be achievable with the bulk of a powder slow enough to push that much mass out of the gun without dangerous pressures. For what 2,000 boolits would cost you you could buy a cheap Lee pot and a couple of Lee moulds and some Lyman #2 and cast exactly what you want. If you are buying your boolits, you may experience leading due to lubes being too hard and boolits being too hard, especially for the ACP. To answer your question, the Casull and ACP usually have the same bore diameter at .451", but their boolit requirements are somewhat different. With 1911 style pistols, as with all autoloading pistols, boolit shape is critical to reliable feeding. With the Casull, one usually wants a heavier boolit and, as you said, a crimp groove of some sort so one can actually use decent power loads while both retaining the unfired boolits and achieving an effective crimp (crimping not in a groove= stretched brass, loss of mouth tension). Although it is possible to use one boolit for both, it may be a compromise. If you are just plinking, you may try some sort of Keith-style semi-wadcutter in the 200-240 grain range, they feed very well in the Kimbers (also help prevent premature slide-lock engagement due to shape clearing the catch better than rn or ball) and also work well in the revolvers because you can roll-crimp right over the boolit shoulder. That would be my choice if I could have only one boolit.

I cast and load several different boolits for my Kimber .45s and for my .45 Colt revolver, the only one I use in both is a hollow-point specifically designed for feeding in the ACP, and although it drops at 203 grains with my alloy (light for the Colt), is my preferred varminting boolit for my revolver.

Keep in mind that my advice is all worth exactly what you paid for it, but I hope it helps!

Gear

[mtnman31]

You won't know about the porting until you try it. I have seen other's guns that are ported and spit lead all over. My ported .357 doesn't have any problems shooting lead. Each gun is a mystery unto itself, waiting for you to solve it.

[randyrat]

#3 You may get by with a 230 gr plain base in 45acp and 454 but using 45 colt brass if everything thing is measured right.
I would try to use the 45 colt brass because of the capacity problem using that light of bullet in a 454 case (too much empty space). The 230 gr plain base no gas check would have to be a real plinker in the 454.

[windrider919]

as a follow-up on my previous post with something I left out: The reason I "used to own a .454 Cas" was because the barrel was really .457, not what it should have been. The cylinder throats, however miked .455. Obviously accuracy suffered so bad I sent that pistol down the road. That is why I had to try two different bullet diameters. Sorry I did not make that clear. Obviously, someone at the factory made a major FU and I 'Couldn't get no satisfaction' with them so I sold it. I did tell the buyer but he wanted it anyway [not a reloader].

[fredj338]

I have shot lead bullets in ported guns w/o issue, but as noted, all guns are diff. As to sharing bullets between the 45acp & 454, only if you want light plinkrs in the 454. Even in 45colt, except for CAS, I rarely drop below 250gr & that is in an efficient LSWC form. The 1911 wants RNL or LTC for best feeding, usually w/o a crimp groove. The 454 wants a crimp groove for best results & heavier bullets are really where it's at. I would get a RCBS 270grSWC mold for the 454 & what ever 200gr-230gr bullet the 1911 prefers. If you want to go cheap, the Lee 6cav 228grLRN is a good design in 45acp & the 300grFPGC in the 454, but then you have to deal w/ seating GC.

[geargnasher]

Oleycow, notice the trend: Virtually all responses involve home cast boolits (big surprise here!).

IMO, the only way you are going to achieve economy, satisfaction and being kind to your guns is to cast, size, and lube your own boolits.

Gear

[oleycow]

I began picking up on that, Infact I have already begun gathering the supplies. Thanks for all of the help guys. I'm sure I will have more questions once I start the casting.

Oleycow

[wallenba]

I shoot a hard alloy lead 230 grain Lee RN in my 1911, no problems. The 45ACP is usually a low velocity load anyway 800-1000 FPS. A hard alloy bullet loaded moderately and lubed well should not lead much at all. I use Lee liquid Alox that my bullet was designed for and get NO leading. I prefer cast bullets over jacketed when I can. Jacketed bullets will shorten the life of your barrel compared to the cast bullets. Just make sure if you tumble lube to get it off the nose and ogive or you will get feed problems in the ramp, and since the 45 ACP spaces on the case mouth, trouble chambering. Sounds like a lot to keep in mind, but it will become just common sense the more you do it.

[inuhbad]

Oleycow,

In a PORTED BARREL - I don't know - I don't own one myself, and don't like parroting 'what I've heard' unless I've seen it for myself.

Glad to see you're starting to gather some of the supplies - I'm sure once you look over 'the numbers' you'll find this to be quite a cost-saving hobby. Sorry this post is long, but I hope it might help you justify some things related to cast bullets.

For the M1911 handguns, they LOVE cast 230 grain Lead Round Nose (LRN) bullets!

It has the same curve/profile of 230 grain Full Metal Jacket Ball ammunition that the 1911 was designed to shoot. They feed 100% reliably, and I've never had a single jam with my 1911 shooting 230 grain LRN bullets (wish I could say that about some commercial jacketed hollow points).

I have bought cast bullets from many different companies since 2003 (when I started loading my own ammo), and I'd recommend buying your cast lead bullets from these two companies:

Kead Bullets (http://www.keadbullets.com) - they cast their bullets out of a 2% Tin, 8% Antimony, and 90% Lead alloy. They shoot great in 45 ACP, and I don't have leading issues.

Missouri Bullet Company (http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php) - Also recommended by SciFiJim, the Missouri Bullet company also casts lead bullets with a very nice alloy. I've never had leading problems from their 45 ACP bullets either.

I just go with whoever is running the better deal at the time...

My suggestion is this --> Buy a box of 500 bullets, 230 Grain Lead Round Nose. Check the Speer Reloading Manual or other manuals for the proper powder charges used for 230 grain Cast Lead Round Nose bullets. Load up the 500 rounds, and see if your gun likes them!

If you DO find they shoot pretty good, it might be worth getting into casting your own bullets. At present prices, the above linked commercially cast bullets will run about $0.066 per bullet. By casting my own bullets, they're costing me $0.014 to$0.016 per bullet!!!

That's roughly $66 + shipping for 1000 bullets, or $16 (no shipping) for bullets of the same quality.

When it comes around to 'justifying the cost' figure I've got about $350 in reloading equipment, and $350 in Casting equipment... A total of about $700 to make most of my own ammo. I shoot around 2000 rounds per year in 45 ACP.

Factory loaded 45 ACP ammo: $960 for 2000rds (the best price I can find lately - but it's not in stock)
Handloaded 45 ACP with FMJ ball: $440 for 2000rds
Handloaded 45 ACP with Commercial 230gn LRN: $310 for 2000rds
Handloaded 45 ACP with MY 230gn LRN: $192 for 2000rds

Now if you calculate the cost savings...
Shooting JACKETED handloaded ammo saves $515 per year over Factory ammo.
Shooting Commercial Cast Lead ammo saves $650 per year over Factory ammo.
Shooting Self-Cast Lead ammo saves $768 per year over Factory ammo.

So, loading my own ammo with my own cast bullets pays for my entire reloading setup nearly every 11 months!!!

That's just with ONE CALIBER. I also load & cast for .38/.357, among others.

Why pay more when you don't have to?

It'll take me casting 6000 boolits before I pay off my casting equipment costs - but that's nothing. Given the calibers I shoot most, that'll be paid off by cost savings in about 16 months time.

Also, one thing you'll want to do is search around for a good lead source!

I have two good lead sources:
1.) Tire Shop - they'll let me take all the wheel weights I want for free... Typically stop in there every 2 months or so... They let me dig thru their buckets, and I take the ones I want - leave the ones I don't. It's very convenient, and they like it becuase they have to PAY like $0.30 per pound that they take to the recycling center!
2.) Non-Ferrous Materials Recycling Center... This is the place that MOST tire repair shops, construction contractors, and other people take their scrap lead, copper, steel, aluminum, etc... I can dig through crate after crate of different scrap material that I want to buy. They typically separate wheel weights (alloyed lead), and nearly pure lead (lead pipe, sheeting, etc.) in different crates. They charge me $0.50 per pound for lead...

A $100 bill can buy me 200 pounds of lead (or lead alloy if I want good wheel weights), and on the way home I can swing by the tire repair shop to pick up another ~40 pounds of wheel weights for free!!! That's an average of 240 pounds of lead for $100, and I can get that much every couple months. That comes to about $0.41 per pound as my average alloy cost. 7000 grains per pound, that's $0.0000595 per 'Bullet Grain'. Figure 230 grains in a 45 ACP LRN bullet, that's $0.014 (rounded) per bullet, which comes out to about 7300 bullets in 45 ACP.

That'll last me quite a while... It's best to get as much lead & alloy as possible, smelt it down to ingots, and then you can cast/size the bullets on more of an 'as-needed' basis at your own convenience.

Hope this helps and hope it didn't burn your eyes to read so much!

Sorry, I'm just a newbie caster that's ecstatic about how much money he's been saving these past ~6-9 months or so!!! :drinks:

[SciFiJim]

inuhbad,
That is a great break down of costs and why I started casting my own. As I did so, I found that the hobby of casting is just as enjoyable as a trip to the range and both hobbies are complimentary. There is a great deal of satisfaction to be had by starting with scrap lead (I like wheel weights) and ending with a tight grouping at the range. I am not much of a do-it-yourselfer, but in this I really DO enjoy doing it myself.

Oleycow, If you want to try Missouri Bullet Co. you can get a 5% discount. The code for the discount is "HighRoad5".

[oleycow]

That's a great break down. I went looking for lead but haven't had any success yet. I did find one tire shop that would sell some to me for about $0.80 per pound seems a little high but even at that price I could still be casting my own for between 3-4 cents per bullet. Which would still make me happy. Thanks

Oleycow