358156 w/o gas checks?

[FISH4BUGS]

I have cast up a ton of Lyman 358156,'s and would like to shoot some of them without gas checks in moderate to full 38 loads. The mix is 5lbs ww to 1lb linotype. Magma blue lube. Will be sized on Star sizer.
Rather than go out and find an plain base H&G 51, I would ilke to try shooting them w/o GC's. Anyone do that before with good results?....or at least no bad results?
Many thanks.
Donald in NH

[Wally]

They should work well for you, however many have issues with the lube that fills the gas check recess. I have solved this by making an epoxy ring that reamins on the "I" rod in the sizer die. These bullets work well with most of my guns.

[Mak Rov]

Donald, I never had much luck shooting the 358156 boolit without the gas check. The accuracy just was not as good as when there was a gas check. Every gun is different though, so YMMV. Ken

[FISH4BUGS]

The 358156's I want to shoot are going to go through a 3" Model 36 S&W and a 640 357 snubbie. Target is not my intention. It is blasting practice ammo. I am more concerned about leading without the gas check. Probably not driven to much over 750-800 fps or so. If I use them in light 357's (1000 fps) I'll use the gas check.
Just wondering if it is worth the effort. I hate burning up Gator's gas checks in light 38 loads.

[Larry Gibson]

Load up 20-50 over 3.5 gr Bullseye and try them.

Larry Gibson

[Poygan]

In my younger days (and minimal note taking) I used it without the checks and don't recall any significant problems. Your mix should be more than sufficiently hard for a .38 load but I'm not familiar with that lube. Personally, I'd use Unique or Universal.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Actually for 750 - 800 fps your alloy may be a little too hard (maybe). Make sure you size them large enough to fill the bore (.001 - .002 over actual slugged bore dia.) Undersized boolits of a hard alloy can lead just as bad as soft boolits pushed to fast. This can be made worse with a bevel base or, in your case, a GC shank without a GC. If you size them large enough you should be ok though.
You might want to think about a 6 cavity Lee mold for a plain base boolit. The 358-158-RF is a favorite of many here. You probably want to stay around this weight for fixed sighted guns as that what the sights on almost all fixed sighted .38/.357's are set for. Don't know what experience you have with Lee molds, but the 6 cavity molds are MUCH better quality than the 2 cavity molds, and once you get the hang of getting started with them you can make a big pile of boolits FAST.
I haven't had much luck shooting the 358156 at low - medium velocity, even with the GC on. Well they shot OK at 1000 fps, but in my experience it likes to go FAST. I have shot it in full strength .357 loads, .357 Herrett loads going 1700 fps and .35 Rem. loads going over 2000 fps. Excellent accuracy and no leading when sized to bore dia. +.001 and lubed with Lars BAC. For 800 - 1100 fps loads the Lee boolit shoots just as well, doesn't need a GC and I can cast them much faster with the 6 cavity mold.
If you want to stay with a steel mold, the Lyman 358477 (150 gr. SWC) is another plain base boolit that shoots VERY well. I sold my 4 cavity mold a few years ago, but might get a new one to replace because it is such an accurate boolit at 800 - 1000 fps. RCBS make a boolit that is very close to this one as well.

[FISH4BUGS]

Help me out here. That is counter inutitive. A jacketed bullet is about as hard as it gets. How can a lead bullet be TOO HARD? What is the physics behind that? I understand the logic with sizing over by 1-2 thousandths. But an alloy that is too hard?
Please explain.
...and thanks for the good info.

[Bret4207]

Cast and jacketed are like apples and cheese. You eat both but that's where the similarity ends. In certain circumstances, particularly with slightly undersized boolits, an alloy that's too hard (for this application) won't obturate and finish filling the bore. It's only too hard in the sense that it won't obturate with a light load.

[cabezaverde]

Help me out here. That is counter inutitive. A jacketed bullet is about as hard as it gets. How can a lead bullet be TOO HARD? What is the physics behind that? I understand the logic with sizing over by 1-2 thousandths. But an alloy that is too hard?
Please explain.
...and thanks for the good info.

I too am interested in learning more about this. Might help me solve a leading problem I am currently having.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Probably the number one thing that turns people off cast boolits is this: They go out and buy some commercial HARD cast bullets for a high pressure pistol round (9mm, .357 mag. etc.) that are sized too small (.355 for 9mm, .357 for .357 mag., etc), that have bevel bases and hard lube. They load them up and get a lot of leading. Bret is correct, the boolit is to hard to obturate to fill the bore, allowing hot gas to"jet" around the sides of the boolit. Hot gases escaping act like a blowtorch on the sides of the bullet and cut/melt lead and deposit microscopic molten beads of lead on the barrel. This made worse by the bevel base which helps the gases get around the base of the boolit.
This doesn't happen as much with jacketed because the copper jacket is MANY times harder than even linotype alloy and copper melts at a MUCH higher temp. than lead.

[Old Ironsights]

Because this is sort of the same question from a slightly different angle,

Assuming the 358156 is being used for general plinking, running up to maybe 1500 out of a carbine...

Would it make sense to, assuming a 3/1 alloy and if you have 2 moulds, have one mold releived of the GC shank to make it a PB, or would that be a waste of a good mould?

[felix]

Yes, a waste because the 358477 boolit is an excellent checkless boolit on its own merits. ... felix

[Old Ironsights]

But is it ballisticaly equivelent to a PB 358156? The objective is to have a boolit that acts the same for plinking/fast casting as a primary loading...

[Bret4207]

I think some guys here have "de horned" the '156 and had good results. It might be worth a search.+