Consistent 45-70 Squibs

[Chas.]

Went to the range a little while ago and experienced consistent squibs. Reloads were about 6 mo. old. Here's the components:

Starline brass
31gr H4198 powder
405 gr. cast bullet lubed with Felix lube
CCI 200 primer

First 2 were squibs. Primer went off, powder didn't. Had to knock the bullet out of the barrel.
Third went click.......bang. Delayed ignition.
Fourth was a squib.

The fourth was the last I attempted. In all squib cases, I poured the powder out of the barrel before knocking out the bullet. It looked more like unburnt cigarette tobacco than powder.

It has not been subjected to moisture. Any ideas? Could Felix lube contaminate the powder?

[oneokie]

What position were the loaded rounds stored? Boolit up? Boolit down? Horizontal? What was the ambient temperature where the rounds were stored?

Others will weigh in, I am sure.

[Jim]

I wonder if the lube got in the powder by way of the base of the boolit.

[Chas.]

I wonder if the lube got in the powder by way of the base of the boolit.

That's what I was wondering. They were stored with the bullets up, but in a cool dry place - finished basement.

[oneokie]

Pull the boolits our of some of the unfired rounds and pour the powder out and see if any sticks to the inside of the case. Will tell you if the lube migrated. Most people recommend storing with the boolit down.

[jsizemore]

I would load some "fresh" rounds with the same components and see what happens.

If I could pull the bullets, I would check the condition of each of the components. Stick just a primed case in your gun and pull the trigger. Weigh out a new charge of powder and light it and an equal charge from a pulled down case and see if they burn with the same intensity and duration. See if the pulled bullet still have it's lube. Is the lube coating the inside of the case?

If all that's ok, it could be the gun.

[DLCTEX]

Sounds like lube contaminated the powder to me.

[Chas.]

In all cases, the primer lit off enough to drive the bullet into the barrel.

[725]

Just a guess, but powder compromised by lube.

[Gunlaker]

Went to the range a little while ago and experienced consistent squibs. Reloads were about 6 mo. old. Here's the components:

Starline brass
31gr H4198 powder
405 gr. cast bullet lubed with Felix lube
CCI 200 primer

First 2 were squibs. Primer went off, powder didn't. Had to knock the bullet out of the barrel.
Third went click.......bang. Delayed ignition.
Fourth was a squib.

The fourth was the last I attempted. In all squib cases, I poured the powder out of the barrel before knocking out the bullet. It looked more like unburnt cigarette tobacco than powder.

It has not been subjected to moisture. Any ideas? Could Felix lube contaminate the powder?

Maybe a slightly high primer?

The first set of loads I ever made (.45-70 Marlin, H4198, CCI 200 primers) did exactly that. Bullets stuck about an inch or two into the bore, burned yellow kernels.

I had all sorts of theories so I took them apart, found nothing wrong except maybe that I hadn't seated the primers all the way. I reseated them, put the loads back together and they all worked perfectly.

Chris.

[The Double D]

I had the same problem with NfB loads in the 577/450 Martini using IMR 4198. The loads was less than 50% of case capacity. Also occured with RL15 and 5744.

http://www.fototime.com/CCA7B1642974BE0/standard.jpg

The solution for me was filler. NOTE I said filler, not wad! I compressed as much kapok as I could get in the case on top of the powder leaving no air space and the problem went away.

[44man]

The problem is not enough powder. Dacron filler might help but I would leave that powder and go to 4759. A little Dacron even helps with it.
I had a problem with 4198 in my BFR 45-70. It was shooting OK and then I would get a pressure excursion with a stuck case and velocity would jump to 1800 fps. After two of these I pulled the loads.
4198 is too slow for a download.

[nicholst55]

What kind of rifle? Hogdgon lists 31.0 grains of 4198 as max for a 405 grain cast boolit in a Trap Door Springfield at 1459 FPS and 17,100 CUP.

[chevyiron420]

i had the same problem with 4198 in my rolling block. the charge isnt filling the case enough. :castmine:

[Chas.]

The rifle was a H&R Buffalo Classic, but I think the problem would have occured had I been using my Marlin 1895 Cowboy or my BFR.

[axman]

Try crimping the bullets. I had a similar problem a few years back with AAC 2495. Called Accurate and the fellow said light bullet pull could make it happen. I went to crimping bullets and using a magnum primer. This made the diff.. Accurate says in their 2nd manual that a firm crimp should be applied to all 45-70 loads.

When I was having problems the first ed. manual didn't have the crimping part in it.

[dale2242]

I use 30 gr 4198 behind a 385 gr HP without any filler or crimp. My lube is 50/50 and I have NEVER had any problem with this load in my 1884 Trapdoor. Fires every time. The loaded ammo has sat for years in a not so ideal place,---dale

[Chas.]

Yep, bullets were roll crimped since I shoot these in a Marlin lever and a BFR revolver also.


I use 30 gr 4198 behind a 385 gr HP without any filler or crimp. My lube is 50/50 and I have NEVER had any problem with this load in my 1884 Trapdoor. Fires every time. The loaded ammo has sat for years in a not so ideal place,---dale

Help me out here. What exactly is 50/50 lube? If it works that way for you, I'm gonna try it.

[44man]

Many variables with 4198! Some use soft boolits for hunting and can't get case tension and crimp will not correct it enough. Some do not crimp with single shots either. Some use the Lyman "M" expander so boolits seat easy. Fine with black powder but not with 4198 or any slow powder. Primers are a worry, will you get good ignition or light the whole charge at once? There are hundreds of things to look at.
Nothing wrong with 4198 and it is a good powder for the 45-70 if you do what is needed. A filler of Dacron would most likely fix it without a lot of fuss.
My concern in the revolver is the long boolit jump to the forcing cone and even though I was using loads good for the Marlin, was I getting signs of SEE? I had no failures to fire but several shots had very high pressure signs. My boolits are not heavy enough to use slower powders even though I use very tight case tension and a decent crimp.
After switching to 4759 all problems went away and I found a LP magnum primer is most accurate. I tried with and without Dacron but loads with filler are more accurate.
But then I have to step back with something confusing concerning slow powder. I worked loads for my friends original trapdoor with a .460", 500 gr Rapine boolit and 3031 powder (I don't remember the load.) but it was perfect and shot dead center at 50 yards with good groups. I tried my 317 gr boolits with 3031 and they shot one hole groups without a problem but hit too low for the fixed sights.
The reason he needed help was that the gunsmith up town loaded 405 gr boolits for him with 4198. Recoil would smash the cheek bone and they hit over 12" high at 50. After a bunch of these I looked at my 500 gr boolits sideways for a while. But 3031 cured the hard recoil against the face and brought POI to center. He killed a bunch of deer with the gun.
Why did my light boolit work so good? Why was 3031 so accurate? The big 500 gr boolit was super good cast at 20 to 1.
I have no idea what goes on with some powders. The only thing to do is work with stuff and if there is a problem do something else fast before any damage is done.
I really hate to make suggestions other then what I know has worked and is the reason some find me a little hard headed! [smilie=s:
My concern is to never offer anything that might be dangerous, it scares me.

[mooman76]

Did you try tearing down a live one to see if it offered any clues?

[willyboy]

Try sixty grains of 2f Goex. Yer welcome...seriously though,if BP is hard to get in your area,there's still Triple Seven.

[76 WARLOCK]

I had a similar problem, it turned out to becorn cob cleaning media left in the case.
Since I have been very careful about checking.

[Sprue]

All that I shoot is my cast 340 gr WW boolits lubed w/Felix over 15gr of Unique. They are stored boolit down for long periods sometimes. I've never experience any FTF or squib loads. I use NO fillers. What kind of Case Lube to you use?

[Larry Gibson]

Did you try tearing down a live one to see if it offered any clues?

Chas.

Have you?

Larry Gibson

[Chas.]

Had to leave town today for a funeral. I'll tear some down tonight.

[Chas.]

Well, I opened up a few of the loads. After comparing the powder to new H4198 out of a different supply, I really couldn't tell the difference. But I was under incandescent lighting. Tomorrow, I'll look at it under daylight and maybe take some pics, and burn some off and burn off some of the new powder to compare.

[Chas.]

Ok, here's the known good H4198 on the left and the questionable powder on the right. Even though it appears a little different, in real life it looks the same.
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/405grCast/004.jpg

Heres the same powder samples after burning. Good on the left, questionable on the right. To me, the burn appeared the same and the residues appeared the same.
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/405grCast/007.jpg

I agree with the hypothesis that the lube must have "sweated" and contaminated the powder. I plan to unload all the questionable loads, discard the powder, reload using polyfil filler and store bullet down. However, I won't be using H4198. I can't find any.

[trk]

I had a problem with some .375 H&H's I'd loaded. Loaded the next batch with a hotter primer - problem solved.

The graphite on the powder tends to require a certaing amount of briscence from the primer to get the fire going.

[Jim]

The graphite on the powder tends to require a certaing amount of briscence from the primer to get the fire going.

Roger that! I use a lot of IMR 7383 which is a very impeded powder and I ALWAYS light it off with a large magnum rifle primer. Sometimes, depending on the caliber/bullet combination, I use a grain of Bullseye to "kick" it.