Whats the law on Contenders and Enocores

[jh45gun]

As far as switching barrels and stocks. If it is a pistol origionally can you make it into a rifle?Or Not or is it if a rifle you just cannot make it into a pistol or is this just rumor? Or is it a law that you cannot do it legally?

[Old Ironsights]

I have the BATFE "decision paper" somewhere, but it is essentially this:

If the Frame is 4473 registered/taxed as a Pistol, you can do whatever you want to it so long as you don't make it into an AOW (short barreled shotgun).

If it is 4473'd as a Rifle you are at risk of Jackboot if you "convert" it to a pistol, Short Barreled Rifle or AOW and it is discovered or someone tips the feds off.

The question arises at the point of when/why the BATFE decides to check which designation the Frame SN was registered by the MFG. An easy way to have it checked is to have some LEO see you with a TC in an SBR configuration.

99 times out of 100 there is no reason to check a TC Pistol to see if it was taxed as a pistol, but you could be the 1% who ends up in hot water...

[jh45gun]

OK thanks so If I have a pistol and want to make a rifle out of it I can and back to a pistol again and be legal as long as I do not make a short rifle or shotgun. Thanks.

[scb]

OI if you can post that "decision paper" perhaps it could be "stickied" in the appropriate place.

[Rockydog]

Perhaps a Supreme Court of the United States Decision might answer the question?

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

[jh45gun]

Thanks for Posting Rockydog

[marlinman93]

The above mentioned decision is correct, but not as it applies to a T/C. A number of years ago Thompson took BATF to court over this very thing and won a case against them. T/C's have always been sold as a frame, and whatever barrel and stock you wanted.
The T/C is legal with pistol or rifle barrels, (or even shotgun barrels) as long as the pistol length (under 16") has the pistol grip stock on it at the same time, and vice versa. If you put the rifle length barrels on your frame, then you're required to have a rifle buttstock in place to meet minimum overall length. It's up to the individual to be sure he doesn't mix the wrong stock or grip with the improper length barrel.
One exception to this ruling is if you have your T/C reclassified as a "Class 3 weapon". Then anything goes, and you can pay the stamp fee and use whatever barrel and stocks you like.

[Bret4207]

Also check your State laws as they may affect this.

[kirb]

I must be mixed up, but I have bought barrels from custom barrel makers at lengths 16 1/4 and over as pistols barrels and have shot in matches with other like gun. I thought the rifle barrels had to be over 16" but a pistol barrel could be any length. Like the shot guns with pistol grips with the 18 1/2" barrels.

Kirb

[JW6108]

I must be mixed up, but I have bought barrels from custom barrel makers at lengths 16 1/4 and over as pistols barrels and have shot in matches with other like gun. I thought the rifle barrels had to be over 16" but a pistol barrel could be any length. Like the shot guns with pistol grips with the 18 1/2" barrels.

Kirb

Overall length for rifles and shotguns must be 26" or more (with 16"+ barrel on a rifle, 18"+ on a shotgun), but yes, a handgun can have any barrel length.

Not much logic to the law, but what else is new?

[TREERAT]

JW6108 - statment above is correct, period! that is the law.

BUT one thing almost every one misses, yes you can convert a handgun into a long gun but once you convert it is not leagle to change back to a handgun without the tax paid and permission from atf and local law enforcement. this is FACT, like it or not this is the way it is!!!

example- buy Encore handgun and your form 4473 says so, you can convert to longgun ONCE!
but not back to a handgun, even though it was purchased as one.

supreme court law on this did not allow you to change back and forth at will, only to be made into a long gun once. FACT!!!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I thought that notwithstanding curios and relics, it was illegal to mount a stock on a handgun, such as used on Lugers and Mausers.
Morgan

[JSH]

This kind of topic does nothing but flare tempers. I have seen it happen before. Like talking politics and religion. He said she said.
Well with all the lawyers who want to intepret the laws for us, bend and twist them to suit them selves.
My thinking on the whole subject. If you get into the rifle pistol thing on a real legal issue. Chances are you have more to worry about than just that. Read, you screwed up to raise the question to begin with.
jeff

[marlinman93]

Call your local BATF office. I guarantee you they'll tell you that you can switch back and forth on a TC without getting into trouble, as long as the configuration assembled is legal configuration.
I've talked to them after having this same discussion with a few friends. I'm no fan of BATF, but they are very helpful answering this question.

[jhrosier]

I've been following this conversation for nearly 30 years and would have to agree with marlinman.

If owning a TC receiver with the 'wrong' parts, either as a rifle or hangun would put the owner in legal jepardy, TC would not make a receiver that could be used either way.

I own several Contenders and recall that TC put a warning in the owners manual that the gun should never be assembled with a shoulder stock and handgun barrel at the same time.

I also recall a decision many years ago that removed the owner of a TC handgun concurrently with a rifle barrel and rifle shoulder stock from any legal liability regarding "constuctive possession" of a SBR. I recall this only because I had a Contender pistol at the time and was interested in a carbine conversion but concerned about the legal status of same. After the decision was published, I purchased the carbine barrel and buttstock without undue concern.

If I felt the need to confirm the legality of switching barrels and stocks on a Contender or Encore, I would get in touch with TC for an answer.

Jack

[TREERAT]

THREE different atf agents, THREE different answers. TC is no real help either, many people have talked to them and got different answers.

IF you are not doing something else criminal, I doubt they will bother with you, but they would surely use it as an add on charge if they got you for something else.

you will just have to read and comprehend the law to the best of your ability and take your chances! thats why we have lawyers.

keep in mind the only opinion that matters is the judge who hears the case.

[yarro]

So if you TC was sold as a pistol, frame, or a combo pistol/rifle.

1) If your TC has the pistol grips installed then the barrel length is irrelevant.

2) If your TC has the rifle stock attached then the barrel length must be 16" or more and overall length be over 26.5" or more if it is not a shotgun barrel. If it is a shotgun barrel then the barrel length changes to 18" or greater, overall length remains 26.5" or more.

At no time during the conversion process to or from #2 can the rifle stock be installed at the same time as a barrel that violates minimum barrel or overall length for rifle/shotgun.

-yarro

[shotman]

If the barrel is rifled It dont matter You can take a 870 rem shotgun remove the mag tube and cut it to 6in IF THE BARREL IS RIFLED. that is why the Judge is legal. Its a shotgun with a rifled barrel. You can take a 1911 45 and put the shoulder stock on it its a hand gun with a shoulder stock. The 460 S&W is legal as a sawed off shotgun. It will shoot a cut off 410shell as good as a 410shotgun

[TREERAT]

(If the barrel is rifled It dont matter You can take a 870 rem shotgun remove the mag tube and cut it to 6in IF THE BARREL IS RIFLED. that is why the Judge is legal. Its a shotgun with a rifled barrel. You can take a 1911 45 and put the shoulder stock on it its a hand gun with a shoulder stock. The 460 S&W is legal as a sawed off shotgun. It will shot a cut off 410shell as good as a 410shotgun)

SORRY, but you are so compleatly wrong with this statment! that will get you put away. are you trying to make a funny? if not please re read the law!

[crazy mark]

(If the barrel is rifled It dont matter You can take a 870 rem shotgun remove the mag tube and cut it to 6in IF THE BARREL IS RIFLED. that is why the Judge is legal. Its a shotgun with a rifled barrel. You can take a 1911 45 and put the shoulder stock on it its a hand gun with a shoulder stock. The 460 S&W is legal as a sawed off shotgun. It will shot a cut off 410shell as good as a 410shotgun)

SORRY, but you are so compleatly wrong with this statment! that will get you put away. are you trying to make a funny? if not please re read the law!

TreeRat,
Are you by chance an attorney, Judge or BATF agent. I have checked with BATF and the state I live in on T/C's and as long as the frame is used properly it doesn't matter. A legal rifle is a legal rifle as is a pistol. I'm not going to argue the other points but if , like what was stated above on T/C's, it wasn't legal to swap them around they would be marked differently. T/C would be in court constantly fighting to keep their product on the market. That issue was taken care of years ago. Just like the Judge, if it wasn't legal they wouldn't be selling them. The other comments I'm not qualified to say what was said is OK. Personally I wouldn't cut down a rifles shot gun barrel to less than 18.25" and not be attaching butt stocks to pistols with short barrels. Mark

[TREERAT]

I guess I will sneak back to the corner and hide, it seems I have touched a nerve, I just do not want anyone to get in trouble for a law that is so stupid in the first place.

NO I am NOT a attorney, judge or atf. just keep in mind all the differing opinions about this, and different reading and comprehension levels of people. that the only opinion that will matter in the end will be the judge who has to decide the case.

I know when a argument CAN NOT be won, so I will say no more about this issue.

I just hope I did not offend anyone, that was not my intention!

[Old Ironsights]

As stated there are as many different answers to this as there are field agents.

I went around and around with this a while back (2006) with both Mr Hollbrook & the ATF.

The interpretation I gave is essentially what the US vs TC ruling said in way too many words. However, even after that ruling, I got this message from the Ohio Techinal Branch office:


This is in response to your email dated October 16, 2006, to the Columbus Field Division regarding Thompson Center Encore and/or Contender pistols. Adding a shoulder stock to an Encore or Contender pistol with a sub 16” barrel would not make that firearm a non-compliant firearm under the National Firearms Act (NFA) as long as the over all length of the firearm was at least 26”. Be aware, however, that if you do add a shoulder stock to a Thompson Center Encore or Contender and then want to remove that stock, you would then be making a “weapon made from a rifle” which would be a non-compliant NFA weapon unless you filed and received an approved ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm. Note that the tax to make an NFA weapon is $200.

If you have any questions regarding this email, please contact me at Margaret.Specht@atf.gov.

Margaret D. Specht

Industry Operations Investigator

Which corresponds to what Treerat said. However, I contacted Mr Hollbrook on this and this was his response:


Fri 11/3/2006 10:02 AM

Dear ,

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. The fallacy of ATF’s argument is that the term “rifle” is not defined to include just the receiver, and thus the use of just the receiver for use on a pistol does not constitute making a weapon from a “rifle.” As you probably know, we litigated this all the way to the Supreme Court and prevailed against ATF.

I will contact ATF once again to try and clear this up.

Stephen P. Halbrook

Another Fed agent told me this:


I don't think this is one of their wiz kids responding to you. If you add a different barrel over 16" you are compliant. If you remove the stock it is a take-down rifle. I often take two screws out of my 1886 to remove the stock for travel. I am not making a weapon out of a rifle, it is still a rifle? Go figure.

So, again, it really comes back to whether or not your reciever is a 4473 "Pistol" or "Rifle".

Note that Legacy Sports is selling a "Hogleg" (http://legacysports.com/products/puma/puma_bhunterm87shot.html) with a 12" barrel and OAL of 24". It is taxed and sold as a Pistol, not an SBR. Put a full stock on it and it is still a "Pistol"... just like an Uzi with a collapsing stock is considered a Pistol.

A TC action sold as a Pistol can be legally configured just about any way (other than with a short shot barrel), as the change it not considered a "making" - except by a few poorly informed Agents.

A TC action sold as a Rifle configured as an SBR or Pistol legally constitutes a "making" and needs the Tax Stamp... assuming someone checks you on it.

Having all of the parts necessary to make a pistol or SBR in the trunk of your car along with a "Rifle" action does not constitute a "making" (an issue directly adderssed by SCOTUS).

And I'm still looking for the Ruling/Clarification I got in hard copy...

[crazy mark]

I guess I will sneak back to the corner and hide, it seems I have touched a nerve, I just do not want anyone to get in trouble for a law that is so stupid in the first place.

NO I am NOT a attorney, judge or atf. just keep in mind all the differing opinions about this, and different reading and comprehension levels of people. that the only opinion that will matter in the end will be the judge who has to decide the case.

I know when a argument CAN NOT be won, so I will say no more about this issue.

I just hope I did not offend anyone, that was not my intention!

No offense as this has been an issue that won't seem to die. Just did my own homework on this because of all the different stories I have heard and the Internet is a wonderful place for "urban myths" to be spread. Mark