proof of .303 accuracy claims

[Bloodman14]

Hey, all, sometime back, I started a small ruckus when i asked about bore dia. vs. groove dia. I made a claim of cast boolit accuracy in my Enfields, that was apparently viewed with some skepticism. I promised some pics, and here they are; the yellow sticker translates thus; 2.8 cc's of H4831 with a c309-200-r boolit. The 3 shot group measures 9/16"!
Pics of the MK1 will be coming soon!


Lead Forever!:castmine:

[Bob S]

I have no doubt that an Enfield will group well with bullets that fit, but three shots isn't a "group": at best, it's an accident. Five shots is marginal. Ten shots begins to become statistically significant. Fifty yards won't tell you much about a load, either ... unless all you ever intend to shoot is 50 yards.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[docone31]

Paper patch those puppies, and watch your group get smaller yet!
I found the same accuracy with mine in full military dress.
Definately do it at at least 100yds.
It sounds like you are on to something there.

[Larry Gibson]

Gunnerd

Your off to a good start and that is a fine looking sporterized SMLE. The comments are correct though. Shoot at 100 yards and provide, at a bare minimum, a 5 shot group. Even then a good 5 shot group can be the result of random selection. To demonstrate consistent accuracy a 10 shot group is minimum with 2 such groups being fairly conclusive. Some advise 5 shot groups with 3 or 5 such groups to show consistent accuracy and I've no problems with that either. If your rifle cosistenty shoots twice that good at 100 yards on average with 5 shot groups then you've got a real fine rfle and load.

Larry Gibson

[725]

Hey gunnerd, Looks good to me. You should be happy. I would. Drive on!

[dromia]

Whats the distance it was shot at?

[Bloodman14]

dromia, it was approx. 65 yds., the practical limit of my backyard. I'll have to move to a proper range to do a full 100 yd. test, where I will do 2 10 shot groups as suggested.

Lead Forever!

[Larry Gibson]

Gunnerd

Good shoow, looking forward to the results.

Larry Gibson

[sheepdog]

Gunnerd, I can see why people were skeptical, the Enflield was not know for its accuracy but more for its high volume of fire and durability. Remember these were shot for 50 years before non-corrosive cartridges and changed hands from many countries in many wars. Most all of the ones in the US are so worn on the bore they measure .315 to .320 range.

I suggest you do a search for "The Load", using 13 grains for red dot. 300 meter sights should be nearly dead on at 100 yards. Try that with a three 15 shot groups and let us know, might be able to see what can be done.

[docone31]

Boy, do I agree with that one.
However, a free floated barrel, with proper fitting boolitt does change things.
My Enfield in full dress heats up the barrel immediately! As soon as the heat starts up, the barrel wanders in a large way.
I three point bedded my forestock, and use paper patches. That changed things dramatically. I still get the barrel hot, but my POI remains the same.
With that wide open barrel, bore size is the issue. With the optimum size, the Enfields are amazingly accurate.

[JeffinNZ]

LE's don't like floating barrels. I have 4 and all are pressure pointed.

[Bloodman14]

I have been considering a full bedding job. Being unemployed since December, money is sure tight. Lost two good jobs due to the economy; I am a steel worker/welder by trade.

Lead Forever!

[dromia]

That combination looks promising. :-D

[Bigjohn]

Gunnerd, don't be disheartened, the sign of a good load is your ability to reproduce those groups each time you shoot the rifle/load combination. I test all new loads at 50 metres to see what they may offer and adjust sights for the longer ranges.

I know what it is all about, as I shot a group using the "Load" (reddot), Berdan primed cases and homecast RCBS 308-165-SIL boolits. At 50 metres, this load shot a five round, one hole group which was under 3/4" diam. I was using an OMARK Mod. 44B Target Rifle with 'CENTRAL' click adjustable peep sights off a shakey bench over sandbags.

To this day, I have never been able to reproduce a like sized group using the same batch of components. NEVER! What was it about that first group other than it being memorable, that made it so? Who knows! ABout twenty years of trying have gone past since that day.

And like Robert Bruce, we keep on trying.

John

[303Guy]

I with you all the way, Gunnerd.:drinks:

I have been playing around with cast bullet for my MkI* MLE. It is fitted with a new No4 barrel (which means it has a tight chamber). I had this idea of using heavy bullets and slow powder. This is what I did.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-357F_edited.jpg
I made torpedoes!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-606F_edited.jpg
Surface lubed 220 grain bullets on top of 35.5gr AR2208/Varget.

The result. (I know, I know - it's not a group but it is promising! The other four shots landed in a similar group but on a dirty and used target. When I saw how they were shooting, I decided to put the last three on a new target).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-351F_edited.jpg

[Echo]

Well, statistically speaking, 3 shots IS a group - one just doesn't have as much faith in the reproducability of that load as in the same sized group of 5 shots, and so on...

"The Old Stat Prof", AKA

[Bloodman14]

Hey, 303guy, what mold did you use to make your 'torpedoes'? I have been thinking about heavies myself, but heard that the heavier the boolit for caliber (read 'longer'), the faster the twist has to be. How long a boolit can you use in the standard1-10" twist?

Lead Forever!

[35 Whelen]

Gunnerd hang in there. A 9/16" group at 65 yds. equates to roughly .84" at 100 yds. and that's purty darn good. Judging from the looks of your rifle, it's a hunting rifle and 3-shot groups from this type rifle is OK in my book. I feel that if, for example, my 35 Whelen will consistently group 3 consecutive shots into 1 to 1 1/4" groups at 100 yds., then it groups OK and I can count on it to put at least 3 consecutive shots where they need to go under hunting conditions. The deer and elk that have fallen to said rifle had no idea whether I fired 3, 5, 10 or 50 shot groups. IMHO, firing 10 or even 5 shot groups from a big game rifle is a waste of primers, powder and bullets and is only good for impressing friends.
That being said, I feel it's likewise a total waste of time to fire anything but 10 shot groups from my High Power rifle because during competition I fire 10 shot strings. I tested a couple of loads in my K-31 this evening and fired 10-shot groups with each.
So, I think the number of shots fired for a group size should be based on the use of the particular rifle.
Regards,
35W

[303Guy]

Gunnerd , They are 30mm long (1.18inch). I have several trial moulds I made. These are nose pour and use a seated g/c as the base plug. They are big - sized to fit my rifle's chamber snugly. I made a new one for paper patching and have succeded in patching and loading three of those. They are also torpedoes. Being round nose and big, without lube grooves, they are relatively short for their weight so stability in a 1 in 10 twist is pretty good. The heaviest bullets I have made and shot are 243gr. There was no sign of bullet wobble at all with these - perfectly round holes in the paper. The ones in the pic are 220gr and this to me is the optimum weight for the chamber and case.

Here is what's left of one after hitting wet and or damp cloth.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-644F.jpg

What would that be, 25% weight retention?:Fire:
One day I will try them on real live critters.

Oh, that bullet was shot through a two-groove barrel. You can see one of the 'grooves'. I found it interesting that they do not strip even with so little to spin them. But then, they start up real close to the rifling.

[303Guy]

Just to support Gunnerd here, Lee Enfields really do make fine sporting rifles! Maybe not one holers, but 1.5 MOA minimum!

Here's mine. (One of them)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-244F_edited-2.jpg

That stock is my creation. Someone else cut the butt socket (and rough cut the butt).

The barrel is floated and the action is fully bedded, including the knox form.

And if properly done, the scope mount base is a rugged as can be.

This scope base is keyed into the charger bridge and is made from an alloy bicycle crank arm. (It helps to have access to a milling machine).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-814F.jpg

That's my carry cord you can see (I've posted this pic before). See, No4's even come with a ready made carry cord attachment point!