Case neck tension

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
As it has been found that case neck tension (CNT)is an important factor in revolver CB group size, it might be a good to have a sticky of good brass to get the desired "firm" case neck tension.

So to start out I have found:
38 spl- old mil./police surplus brass has thickest case walls & most (best) CNT
Next best is WW, Super-X, Winchester, ww/super family of brass
357 mag. Best for high CNT is
1st WW brass family
2nd followed closely by HSM brass,
3rd is S&W brass.
IF YOU KNOW OF OTHERS LIKE THE ABOVE PLEASE LIST.
44MAG. Will have to do a survey of my brass but offhand I think it will be the WW brass family having the best (firmest) CNT.

IF YOU KNOW OF OTHERS PLEASE LIST.
THANKS,
BOOM BOOM

[Buckshot]

..............Case neck tension IS very important for competitive ammunition. However besides the make of brass is how it's treated during reloading, and how it is maintained. Previous to the advent of the RCBS Cowboy series of dies, manufacturers all assumed you were reloading jacketed bullets so they sized cases smaller then those of us followers of the silver stream would have liked to see. Our recourse was the Lyman M die so as to make the casemouth a bit more cast friendly. And at times even the M die expander had to be modified or replaced.

..............Buckshot

[jhrosier]

Some interesting stuff here, posts #6 through #9:

http://www.rugerforum.net./showthread.php?t=14001

Jack

[Milton]

Great article on the Ruger Forum ! I have just run into such a problem while loading .32 H&R.My revolver was shooting large patterns even though it had been reworked and should be shooting tight groups.It is amazing what you will look over in loading and the one thing I had assumed was OK was the flaring tool,bad mistake! I checked the diameter of the tool and it was a little larger than 0.312 inches so neck tension was low to non-exsistant.I re-cut the tool to 0.310 and now I am getting tight groups !!

[felix]

Cases with small volume, and especially length, will require considerably more neck tension because the primer has considerably more force knocking the boolit out before the powder has a chance to do its thing. It is too bad primers cannot be purchased with a heat and force ratings on the package. If that was the situation, there would be no need for large and small primers, magnum and standard. BR primers would be rated as production lots that were tested to be the most consistent in heat AND force, and priced accordingly. ... felix

[44man]

HI,
As it has been found that case neck tension (CNT)is an important factor in revolver CB group size, it might be a good to have a sticky of good brass to get the desired "firm" case neck tension.

So to start out I have found:
38 spl- old mil./police surplus brass has thickest case walls & most (best) CNT
Next best is WW, Super-X, Winchester, ww/super family of brass
357 mag. Best for high CNT is
1st WW brass family
2nd followed closely by HSM brass,
3rd is S&W brass.
IF YOU KNOW OF OTHERS LIKE THE ABOVE PLEASE LIST.
44MAG. Will have to do a survey of my brass but offhand I think it will be the WW brass family having the best (firmest) CNT.

IF YOU KNOW OF OTHERS PLEASE LIST.
THANKS,
BOOM BOOM
WW brass has always been the thinnest, Hornady seems too soft until fired a lot. I have had good luck with Remington and Federal when we could buy it. Right now I would say Starline is the best.
The very worst for accuracy is new, virgin cases of any kind. Tension actually evens out after the brass is shot a few times.
Felix is right on the money and case tension is so very important.
The only way I have found to get it is with boolits the right size and hard enough to resist sizing when seating. Over size expanders for soft boolits just ruin accuracy. Lyman has never had it correct with the soft boolit stuff and even some of their neck sizing dies are way too large so an expander is not even working. This is all old school, soft lead, obturate to fit with no expectations that a revolver is worth a darn stuff.
To duplicate the accuracy of jacketed, you must load like jacketed and that means harder boolits held tight in the brass. I want to look at a loaded round and see ripples from the boolit base and the grease grooves on the brass.
The dies you use are important. If they are made for soft lead, you are wasting your time.
There is accuracy at any range, there is the cowboy crowd and there are the guys happy at 7 yards. They do not mix! Some get away with poor accuracy because it just doesn't matter. Some are tickled pink with 3" patterns at 7 to 25 yards.
A revolver is a special animal to load for. You need to keep the cage door shut until the powder is doing what it needs to do. I have tamed that animal and nobody can dispute the way mine shoot but I am not done looking for the one hole group at 100 yards with a cast boolit out of a revolver. But vision is hurting the quest.
I have posted for years and I am so happy to see a few repeat my ideas more and more. I want all of you to make your revolvers shoot but you have to get away from the old practices and equipment.
Anyway Boom Boom, I do not agree on WW brass, never having the super accuracy from it.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thanks for the input, even if our views don't always match, I always pay close attention to what the MASTERS say.
Often I change my opinion when I read what 44man, Felix, Buckshot, & Dep. Al's comments.
As always enlighting & food for thought.
Read the Ruger forum posts, informitive, I felt.
Had always thought new unfired brass was best to do acc. tests with.
I believe I read it in a gun mag. once, Perhaps another myth has bit the dust, at least in my mind.

[44man]

Here is a new brass test done with my .44. I lost count of the different group positions even though I checked and sorted brass with each shot. There were at least 6 POI changes. I could feel the changes in seating pressure as I loaded them.
Remington brass.
50 shots at 50 yards.

[BOOM BOOM]

WOW,
PRETTY DRAMATIC.
And form r-p brass which you listed as one of your favorite types.

[44man]

Tension seems to even out quite a bit after brass is shot. I even have .44 brass I am still using that I know has over 40 reloads through them.
The only brass I have had split are once fired ones too. I lost several .475 cases with the first shot but the rest have many, many loads now without a problem.
If I was going to buy new brass today, I would buy Starline. They seem more even.
As strange as it may seem, I never keep track of what cases are shot so many times either. They all get dumped in the tumbler! I don't get anal over it, I just don't like new brass for accuracy.
Maybe I could get that one hole group by sorting some cases that shoot in the same hole. Like BR shooters that shoot the same cases for a whole match. Too lazy though. [smilie=f:
By the way, I shot that test trying to settle a post here about it. I put a scope on the gun instead of the red dot and shot the best I could. Try it the next time you get new brass, you need to break them in anyway.
I do have a system to measure seating pressure but rarely use it, the Hornady dies cut down the variation enough so my lazyness:bigsmyl2: takes over again.

[BOOM BOOM]

hi,
The myth/rule that I had always followed ,up to this point, may have come from rifle acc. projects.
Other thoughts:
1.It would seem odd that rifle brass like 220 swift, 06, & 7mm mag. brass would follow different rules.
2. It may also have been connected to j-bullets.
3. New brass should have more consistent case dimentions, unless all brass was only once fired in the same chamber (one gun,if rifle).

[44man]

hi,
The myth/rule that I had always followed ,up to this point, may have come from rifle acc. projects.
Other thoughts:
1.It would seem odd that rifle brass like 220 swift, 06, & 7mm mag. brass would follow different rules.
2. It may also have been connected to j-bullets.
3. New brass should have more consistent case dimentions, unless all brass was only once fired in the same chamber (one gun,if rifle).
True, rifles are different. It takes a book to go over everything with those.
It seems straight wall brass shot with lower pressures, even the 45-70 and such last a long time.
Revolvers however, depend on even case tension and the slower the powder, the more you need.
Shooting softer boolits with fast powders is just a balancing act between sizing when seating and maintaining a grip. Still, the more even it is the better.
Years ago when I had bad accuracy problems when starting to shoot IHMSA I noticed the different feel when seating jacketed bullets. I worked out a way to measure them and sort them into groups. I even had BR dies made because the RCBS dies didn't work. That helped a lot but are a pain to load with.
Anyway, I could take the loads with looser fitting bullets and shoot a 1/2" group. The tightest also shot a 1/2" group but it was 10" away from the first one. By mixing all the loads, the best group I could hope for is 10" at 50 meters with the in between tension loads filling in the center area. At least I now knew why I could shoot a super group one time and spray bullets the next, I lucked into brass that was more even for the good group.
I have to say that I do not know how long brass will last when shot with high pressures like the .454 and .460. I have been helping a friend with a .454 and it seems to be OK.
I can say it was very easy to get jacketed revolver bullets to shoot and it took me some time to get cast to shoot as good or better sometimes. The only improvement I can get now is to sort brass by POI.

[Edubya]

If we are using a softer bullet, i.e., BHN10-12 (WW), wouldn't it be easier to make the bullets a smidgen larger than the cylinder throat and just crimp enough to hold the bullet in place? The cylinder would consistently provide the resistance to allow for the 'bump up'.
This of course with the proviso of a properly sized, and a strong enough, cylinder. this would, in effect, mean that the cylinder throat does the final sizing.

Thank all of you for these stimulating subjects.

[44man]

If we are using a softer bullet, i.e., BHN10-12 (WW), wouldn't it be easier to make the bullets a smidgen larger than the cylinder throat and just crimp enough to hold the bullet in place? The cylinder would consistently provide the resistance to allow for the 'bump up'.
This of course with the proviso of a properly sized, and a strong enough, cylinder. this would, in effect, mean that the cylinder throat does the final sizing.

Thank all of you for these stimulating subjects.
I do not want bump up and never believed in it although there is always something happen to a boolit. But what you suggest doesn't prevent the brass from sizing the boolit too much anyway. Then you have to worry about cylinder and forcing cone leading.
The boolit can skid too much instead of taking the rifling, the land and groove marks on the base band MUST stay the same size as bore dimensions.
Then picture what soft lead does when it hits the forcing cone. Lead can even squirt out of the gap and lead the outside of the gun. You no longer have the boolit you started with and the bore is making it's own. You might as well start with a fishing weight.
Revolvers are very easy, unlike a rifle, but you can't stray far from what it needs. :drinks:

[Edubya]

I respect your thoughts and words and perhaps I'm not explaining what I mean so I will defer to a much more professional shooter and writer, Norm Johnson:
Tip - I fit most of my revolver bullets so that they will be a push fit into the throats and then load the cartridges so that bullets reach way out into the throats for good initial guidance; that is, with the bullet and bore axes perfectly collinear.

For those who load their rounds so that the bullets crimp at the crimp groove, rather than having them extend way out into the throat, oversize bullets, even those that are larger in diameter than the throats, can provide a definite advantage. There will be virtually no gas cutting, no matter what the bullet alloy.

Where a really long blunt bullet is loaded way out into the cylinder, the diameter determination is a little more crucial. I shoot mostly heavy (long) blunt bullets in revolvers because they allow me to load really long, to within 0.1" of the front of the cylinder face. This is important to me because, given a snug fit, the bullet holds its axis in nearly perfect co-linearity with that of the bore for an ideal launch situation. The chambers themselves are usually pretty sloppy so that conventional ammo will not lay coaxially in the chamber. Not good!
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm

[felix]

Perfect alignment is what it is about, and making sure the projectile stays thataway from passing the breach COMPLETELY through the muzzle is the cat's meow. ... felix

[44man]

I respect your thoughts and words and perhaps I'm not explaining what I mean so I will defer to a much more professional shooter and writer, Norm Johnson:
Tip - I fit most of my revolver bullets so that they will be a push fit into the throats and then load the cartridges so that bullets reach way out into the throats for good initial guidance; that is, with the bullet and bore axes perfectly collinear.

For those who load their rounds so that the bullets crimp at the crimp groove, rather than having them extend way out into the throat, oversize bullets, even those that are larger in diameter than the throats, can provide a definite advantage. There will be virtually no gas cutting, no matter what the bullet alloy.

Where a really long blunt bullet is loaded way out into the cylinder, the diameter determination is a little more crucial. I shoot mostly heavy (long) blunt bullets in revolvers because they allow me to load really long, to within 0.1" of the front of the cylinder face. This is important to me because, given a snug fit, the bullet holds its axis in nearly perfect co-linearity with that of the bore for an ideal launch situation. The chambers themselves are usually pretty sloppy so that conventional ammo will not lay coaxially in the chamber. Not good!
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm
Fit to the throat ideas are good but not that critical. A boolit that enters the throat for guidance is also not critical. Most of my boolits do not enter the throats and I shoot, for instance, 430 to 432 boolits in my SBH without a change in accuracy. The throats are .4324 with a .430 bore. I have gone to .434 with molds I made and there is no difference between them and a .430 boolit.
How the boolit engages the forcing cone and how well it holds it's shape means much more.
If a gun will not group with jacketed bullets, it will never shoot cast but if you have a good gun, cast will shoot as well or better.
There a a billion ideas floating around from EXPERTS that are quoted over and over and I have always said that you should not sweat the small stuff.
I do NOT consider myself an expert nor do I claim to know all the answers but for some reason I get the smallest groups consistantly from revolvers that anyone has ever shot. Not a single person here or at any other site has posted groups like my friends and I get at any distance and none of us shoot at less then 50 yards. Average 1" groups at 100 yards with many under 1" are common for us. The reason is that I showed them how to load ammo or I load it for them. There is too much hoopla going around that means little. A revolver built right only needs a few rules that I posted a thousand times, it does not need 20 years of changes to shoot. You do not need a special barrel or $4000 in custom work. Bioman is shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yards with an out of box Ruger Hunter and all I did was a trigger job.
I just don't know how to get you fellas to relax, do the simple things I outlined and go shoot? I want to see some of you improve on what I say and show what you get.
So Edubya, show groups.
We must advance and stop going over old fashioned ideas that hold us back.
When someone says you need two coats of LLA or you need to fill only one grease groove or you need an "M" expander or you need soft to obturate, I just shake my head and wonder what he is talking about! [smilie=1: Why does something so easy get so complicated? :confused:
The worst thing a revolver shooter does is to ignore the twist rate, the boolit needed and the velocity it has to be shot at. I just love the guy that wants to shoot a 320 gr boolit out of his .44 with 7 gr of Unique because it kicks too much at the right load! Then someone says you need 10 gr!!! :roll::roll: Darn it, SHOW ME.
When a cheap Ruger can do this at 200 yards with a cast boolit from a home made mold and a 330 gr boolit, I sure want some of you to show something better. I might still be stupid and need more information.

[44man]

I know, I need new pictures but I have not had time to shoot some. I need to cast and load too. Short of powder and primers.
All I want to see are all the ideas and procedures with results and group pictures posted, get away from the keyboard groups. I will post ALL of mine and have done so many times.
Every single one of you should show the rest of us what you talk about works.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have tried over sized bullets.
One point no one has mentioned is that the crimp step inside of the seating die (Lyman in my case) just sizes down the nose section of the bullet as it is seated.
Sometimes to the point of pulling out the bullet as you lower the presses ram. This defeats some of the hoped for guidance benefit, as well as being VERY FRUSTRATING.
This does not affect the drive bands thank goodness.
But I suspect the case itself sizes the drive bands some. As the case is stilled bulged out where the seated bullet is, I am still hoping for some benefit.
Yes, the bore has been slugged & measured. The cylinder troughs have been made uniform in size.
I am getting 2" 12 shot groups at 25yds. off the bench so far. BLAGH!
My current quest for acc. is w/ a Ruger Redhawk SS in 357 W/ the Seaco 180gr. gc. and any & all input would be MUCH APPRECIATED & HAPPLIY TRIED.

[44man]

HI,
I have tried over sized bullets.
One point no one has mentioned is that the crimp step inside of the seating die (Lyman in my case) just sizes down the nose section of the bullet as it is seated.
Sometimes to the point of pulling out the bullet as you lower the presses ram. This defeats some of the hoped for guidance benefit, as well as being VERY FRUSTRATING.
This does not affect the drive bands thank goodness.
But I suspect the case itself sizes the drive bands some. As the case is stilled bulged out where the seated bullet is, I am still hoping for some benefit.
Yes, the bore has been slugged & measured. The cylinder troughs have been made uniform in size.
I am getting 2" 12 shot groups at 25yds. off the bench so far. BLAGH!
My current quest for acc. is w/ a Ruger Redhawk SS in 357 W/ the Seaco 180gr. gc. and any & all input would be MUCH APPRECIATED & HAPPLIY TRIED.
The dies you use will make or break accuracy before you even start and you can work with the wrong dies for years with no improvement. I love Hornady dies and read where some hate them, but my most consistent accuracy is from them. The very worst .44 accuracy was with my old RCBS dies. I don't trust many other dies but maybe Redding dies for pistol are good. I only have them for rifles so I can't say without experience.
When I buy a new revolver I buy Hornady dies only.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I guess I will have to save up & buy a set of Hornady dies for the 357 & the 44 mag Redhawks . Currently using Lyman for the 357 & Rcbs for the 44.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Frank]

I guess I will have to save up & buy a set of Hornady dies for the 357 & the 44 mag Redhawks . Currently using Lyman for the 357 & Rcbs for the 44.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

Before you buy dies, size and expand your cases and let us know what you come up with. You may have good dies already. [smilie=p: :twisted:

[fecmech]

I have 2 size dies for the .357, a Lyman and CH both carbide dies. The Lyman sizes cases .003 smaller than the CH does. I also have a couple thousand each of Winchester wadcutter brass( all the same lot ) and a couple thousand WCC74 Winchester military brass. The military brass is thicker than the commercial. I have a Model 94 Winchester rifle that likes the H&G 158 RN over Unique powder. Out of the wadcutter cases using the Lyman sizer it shoots pretty good,using miltary cases with the Lyman sizer not so good. Shot some yesterday but did not save the target as the group was about 3"@ 50 yds. After reading this thread I decided to try both sizers and cases using the same load. As I said I already knew that the Lyman sizer and Mil cases did not work so I did not bother with that. All groups were 10 shots at 50 yds with a peep sight on a Model 94 .357.
#1.The standard ,commercial brass and Lyman sizer.
#2 CH sizer(.003" larger) and commercial brass
#3 CH sizer and Military brass. The clear winner

[Frank]

What kind of bh and case tension are you running in those military case loads?

[fecmech]

The bullets are ACWW with BAC 2400 lube. As far as neck tension I have no way to measure it. I'm pretty sure that the military cases with the CH (larger) size die have more than the commercial cases with the Lyman( smaller die). I load on a CH Auto Champ progressive press so I'm sizing, seating, expanding and taper crimping all at the same time so there is no way to feel it. I think maybe the reason the accuracy went south with military cases and Lyman sizer is that the ACWW bullets got sized down during the seating process.

[44man]

A very graphic way to show how important case tension is for accuracy.
Fecmech has done a great job.
Too many ignore dies and brass. I have stressed many times to "think brass" for accuracy. There are so many variables with the brass you use and the dies also that either you get good groups or nothing at all.
I don't know any way to predict what brass needs what dies or what dies work for what brass.
I can only say to never change brass and look for the dies that work with what you have. The other way is to find brass that works with the dies you have.
A wonderful addition to knowledge we need from Fecmech!

[Frank]

I agree. Great work and pic.

I loaded .45 Colt today. I measured case tension as follows. The Lee die sizes the brass to .468 neck OD. The boolit is .451+ (neck wall thickness.0112*2) =
.4724". .4724-.468= .0054". Now I also have .453 boolits. That would make it .0074" neck tension. Is that too much? I'll find out when I shoot it. I've got a Hornady sizer that I can use that sizes only .470". So with the wider boolits maybe I need to use that. I water drop also.

[MtGun44]

With soft boolits, you can wind up with the case sizing the boolit. We have recently run
across a few folks with leading problems that eventually turned out to be undersized
boolits, even though the diam from the sizer die was fine. It was NOT fine after seating.

Bill

[44man]

I would not get carried away with too much tension. I feel the Hornady expander is perfect as is.
What counts even more after proper tension is to have all brass exert the same pull on the boolits. THAT is the hard part.

[Frank]

I feel the Hornady expander is perfect as is.


That's all I use, the Hornady expander. The RCBS sucks because it expands the whole neck. The Hornady just does the mouth.

[Frank]

With soft boolits, you can wind up with the case sizing the boolit. We have recently run
across a few folks with leading problems that eventually turned out to be undersized
boolits, even though the diam from the sizer die was fine. It was NOT fine after seating.



That's a good point. I'll pull a boolit and see if it sized. If it did, I'll pull'em all and do it over. :brokenima

[Char-Gar]

Jim Taylor sizes his cases, bells the case mouth, and seats the bullets without using any kind of expander. He loads look like a snake that swallowed a pig, but shoot like a house-a-fire

[44man]

Jim Taylor sizes his cases, bells the case mouth, and seats the bullets without using any kind of expander. He loads look like a snake that swallowed a pig, but shoot like a house-a-fire
That is why I like the Hornady expander. It does not enter the case very far and what does, does not expand too much. Much of the boolit is going into unexpanded brass. I can see the boolit base and grease grooves on the brass. But it gives a nice straight start to seating.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI
With my "Beagled" 357 mold all my cases appear bulged. I have pulled some bullets, and they are clearly smaller so are being sized by the case & the crimping operation. At least W/ my Lyman dies.

I wonder, as the case is bulged perhaps the crimp is not needed?

I like the snake /swallowed pig analogy.

[44man]

HI
With my "Beagled" 357 mold all my cases appear bulged. I have pulled some bullets, and they are clearly smaller so are being sized by the case & the crimping operation. At least W/ my Lyman dies.

I wonder, as the case is bulged perhaps the crimp is not needed?

I like the snake /swallowed pig analogy.
Harden the boolit so it is not sized. Crimp is needed to hold boolits under recoil even with good case tension. That is it's only purpose.
If the seating die is also sizing the brass and boolit, you need a different die.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
My 180gr. bullet are ww + hard lead shot quenched in my snow slush water method. So should be hard enough I'd think.

[Frank]

The subject is about 'Case Neck Tension', the biggest point of all is avoided. What is the correct AMOUNT of neck tension for a cast bullet. All other discussions about neck tension are related, but what we need to tell a reloader who has a bullet in his hand, who knows the bh of his bullet and he's trying to make a load with a given set of dies that are, like I said before in this thread, they may be good already. No need to go run to Hornady dies if your RCBS or Lyman dies are in working order. I've got a small collection of "must haves" that others recommended that are gathering dust. We need to get down to the basics. Benchrest shooters understand this. Why is it so different here?

What is the desired neck tension? .005", 007", .004" for a WW bullet that is water dropped? I needed to know last week with .45 Colt. I got no answer. This week, it's 45-70. So here we go. :veryconfu

Just like my last post on 6/3/09, I'll try this again guys.

I'll use the same basic wording as that post, just subsitute the numbers.
Frank writes and I quote:

I loaded ..45-70 today. I measured case tension as follows. The Lyman neck sizer sizes the brass to .472 neck OD. The boolit is .4585 + (neck wall thickness.0105*2) =
.4795". .4795"-..472= .0073" tension. Use the RCBS expander and it brings the neck back up to .474. That would give me a neck tension of .0053". Now both of the above tensions vary with production brass, + or -.0005 (thickness variance) so looking at making tensions at .004-.005", or .007-.008". What is the desirable amount of neck tension? Cast boolit reloaders should give me an answer. So with a water dropped bullet, what do I want for 45-70? I don't want a manufacturer's name. I want a number. How do I get the number I am looking for? Or another way to put it would be if somebody thinks they're die is "great", would you please size a piece of 45-70 brass and tell me what the neck OD is? [smilie=s:

[44man]

Frank, you do way too much work! :mrgreen:
I worked years and years with the problem and it is not super critical just how much you have as long as it is enough for a good powder burn. I also discovered by extensive testing that crimp alone does nothing but hold a boolit under recoil so I don't over crimp. If you can see signs of the boolit on the brass and the brass is not sizing the boolit, it is OK.
I sorted looser fitting boolits from the tighter ones with a measuring device I made for the press. I would have 10 or more piles on the bench, each pile with a different seating pressure.
When I shot the loose ones, I would get 1/2" groups at 50 yards. (Still enough tension for the powder to work.) Shooting the tight ones still gave me 1/2" groups. The problem was that there was a 10" difference in the point of impact.
I had special BR .44 collar dies made and measuring devices to try and sort brass before loading. I had all sizes of collars for the dies but it was frustrating to say the least. Accuracy did improve though.
The BR dies are a huge pain to use and slows things down a lot.
I started to look for better dies and tried a lot of them. I bought the Hornady dies at last and found dimensions were where I wanted them. I was able to give up all the measuring and make loading easy again. Yes, if I got fussy, I could tighten groups, but out of box revolvers shooting around 1" at 100 yards is just enough for me.
During the testing I found Ruger's do very well but the top revolvers by far are the BFR's. I never matched a single group with the Freedoms because I feel the cylinders lock up too tight. Tight can make you feel good but boolits do not like it.
All of my work included boolit shapes, boolit hardness, every crimp there is, all kinds of revolvers, lubes, primers, all brass and new against fired brass.
I found new brass varies so much it is not worth working loads with until fired a few times. You can sort brass by POI and tighten groups.
Yes BR practices work with revolvers but you need to add brass tension evenness and positive ignition without too much primer pressure.
Am I shooting the smallest revolver groups at all ranges ever shot? I have no idea. But if I miss a pop can at 200 yards from sandbags, I only blame myself and my eyesight at my age.
No one here knows the years and amount of work I put in or why I dispute a lot of ideas still held.
I did the same with archery, made the first lighted bowsights and figured out how to tune a bow for broadheads for perfect flight.
I did the same with muzzle loaders to shoot one hole groups at 50 yards and hit targets at 200 meters with a round ball. How to make a musket with a Minie' ball hit small targets at 200 meters or shoot out of sight with accuracy as far as you can see.
I am not bragging, I just worked my butt off. Not a second of every day has gone by without thinking or working to solve problems. Accuracy was always my passion even if thrown by hand.
Put away all of those measuring devices and looking for thousandths of an inch things. Forget measuring brass or how much they are sized or expanded. Most is way too hard and you gain nothing. Learn to relax and just do the basic things that a revolver needs.
I just grab a pile of the right hardness boolits of the right size and lube. Use the right dies and load normal. Match velocity, boolit weight to twist with the right load and go shoot.
Do not make more out of it then there is.

[BABore]

Foty-Fo Man's case neck tension gauge as he describes. After the boolit is started into the case, use the little spring steel rod to seat it. Sort them by groups based on where the witness washer is positioned. Yes it works.

[Frank]

44man writes:
Frank, you do way too much work!


You're right. Spending too much time on this board. Now THAT''S work. :-?

Why do benchrest shooters buy dies with sleeves so they can start off with a given correct tension? You both know this is right, and who knows if you already do it or don't do it, use a die and know how much it is squeezing the brass. Well, smart guys, if you don't, then you would have messed up big time with the last Hornady dies I bought. New Dimension dies were way off, too loose on tension. I knew it after sizing the first case, because I measure. Hornady was so embarrassed, they just sent me a new die over the phone, no fuss. It's not much work, it only takes a few seconds. BR shooters do it all the time. Why don't you guys lighten up? :)
This is basic stuff. Wanting to know an initial neck dimension is no big question. But it's a primary one. Again, maybe you already know this, but you don't want to share, or you just want to play around. :evil: That's OK with me too. I've always learned to do my own thing works best anyhow. :mrgreen:
Good luck!

[44man]

Foty-Fo Man's case neck tension gauge as he describes. After the boolit is started into the case, use the little spring steel rod to seat it. Sort them by groups based on where the witness washer is positioned. Yes it works.
Hey, that is BEAUTIFUL, much more sophisticated then mine! Now you are forcing me to do more work to make another. Have to see if I have any metal left.
The belt fell off my mower clutch pulley and I was backing up. The belt went under the deck with the blades still turning and got cut in half---$64 down the drain. I made a clamp with a rod to stick between the belt so if it comes off again, the rod will catch it. Another piece of metal gone so I have to look for more.
Anyway, here it is, to help guys with mower problems.

[44man]

44man writes:

You're right. Spending too much time on this board. Now THAT''S work. :-?

Why do benchrest shooters buy dies with sleeves so they can start off with a given correct tension? You both know this is right, and who knows if you already do it or don't do it, use a die and know how much it is squeezing the brass. Well, smart guys, if you don't, then you would have messed up big time with the last Hornady dies I bought. New Dimension dies were way off, too loose on tension. I knew it after sizing the first case, because I measure. Hornady was so embarrassed, they just sent me a new die over the phone, no fuss. It's not much work, it only takes a few seconds. BR shooters do it all the time. Why don't you guys lighten up? :)
This is basic stuff. Wanting to know an initial neck dimension is no big question. But it's a primary one. Again, maybe you already know this, but you don't want to share, or you just want to play around. :evil: That's OK with me too. I've always learned to do my own thing works best anyhow. :mrgreen:
Good luck!
Frank, try the method Babore and I use to sort. Feel is better then measurements and this method transfers feel to a readable figure without the worry of how much. Notice there are no pound or ounce marks, just reference lines.
Loads on the light side shoot as good as those on the tight side, just don't mix them all together.
I can not tell you what case dimensions are for any of my guns or how much they are sized or expanded. I have no idea how many thousandths case tension I have.
I discovered the problem long ago when loading jacketed bullets for IHMSA. As I seated bullets I was feeling a difference in pressure needed to put a bullet in the case.
If I was smart I would make a strain gage with a digital readout to sort loads, but forget that, I am not that smart, only practical. As usual, I took the easy way out. Just doing that won me a pile of IHMSA trophys.
Babore is a wonder at making things, puts me to shame and it is a tribute that he likes my ideas. Thank you Bruce! :Fire:
There are no magic figures, only enough and only even. Brass itself is our challange because no two pieces are exactly the same.
Frank, let me explain collar dies for BR. They give perfect seating without pulling an expander through a neck. That means minimum sizing only. The very worst thing to do with bottle neck rifle brass is to over size and drag an expander through the neck. That ruins bullet runout because shoulders are bent. Case tension itself is not too important as far as how much. Rifles are different then revolvers.
I used to send size dies and fired cases to Redding so they could lap my dies for minimum sizing. I have to wonder if I was not instramental in the development of the collar dies because of my complaints and instructions???
Anyway, I shot many 1/4" groups with a model 70, 220 Swift at 350 yards back in my varmint hunting days. I head shot chucks to over 600 yards. My .300 Weatherby would never shoot over 1/2" groups with any load. The reason was the way I did my brass and the dies I had fixed.
Yes, I did rifles too with the accuracy nut thing. Also single shot pistols.
Here are some 100 and 200 yard targets shot with a few of my pistols. I was working loads and notice the one 5 shot group at 100 from the MOA. It is 3/8". I sure wish I could still see like I did then.

[45 2.1]

Babore is a wonder at making things, puts me to shame and it is a tribute that he likes my ideas. Thank you Bruce!

That he certainly is, a first class mechanic in the old sense of it's usage.

[Frank]

44man, I like your method for bullet seating. That's great. When I get more time I'll work on rigging up a similar device.

OK, now by the way. Earlier in this thread you said the following.


I would not get carried away with too much tension. I feel the Hornady expander is perfect as is.
What counts even more after proper tension is to have all brass exert the same pull on the boolits. THAT is the hard part.

So can we back up a little? How do you evaluate what the proper tension is? I'm not bullet seating. I'm at the sizing and expanding stage. I don't always have grease grooves to look at. The tumble lube bullet's shallow grooves don't show up. So without seeing the grooves, how do you determine the proper tension? Proper tension is what I'm asking about. You know that. So what's the answer?

[44man]

44man, I like your method for bullet seating. That's great. When I get more time I'll work on rigging up a similar device.

OK, now by the way. Earlier in this thread you said the following.



So can we back up a little? How do you evaluate what the proper tension is? I'm not bullet seating. I'm at the sizing and expanding stage. I don't always have grease grooves to look at. The tumble lube bullet's shallow grooves don't show up. So without seeing the grooves, how do you determine the proper tension? Proper tension is what I'm asking about. You know that. So what's the answer?
I know it is hard to understand and I apologize if it gets confusing. A difference in case tension is not a whole lot to worry about as long as the powder works with what you have. So if all of your boolits are held evenly without some too loose and others too tight and the powder lights before the boolit is forced out by the primer, accuracy will be good. For the powder, you need some decent tension and the dies will be the only control you have. There is no need to get carried away trying to make tension super tight.
The only way to know is to make sure the boolit is not sized when seating and if the gun shoots good groups.
By expanding less and using a hard enough boolit to resist seating damage, things tend to even out but there are no measurements of the brass itself that will tell what works. Brass structure is the problem.
Just depend on the dies and see what the gun does. Then you can make the seating pressure tool to sort loads for better results.
Most size dies are OK. Expanders vary all over the place depending on the maker. These are what to work with finding the best combination. But the Hornady dies work for me as is.

[Frank]

But the Hornady dies work for me as is.
Does your Hornady expander just "bell" the case?

[44man]

The Hornady expander does expand a short section and when you have just enough bell to set a boolit in, the expanded section lets the boolit get a straight start. Then the base enters an unexpanded section that is very tight.
Unlike the long expanders with other dies that open brass past the base of a boolit and reduce tension, the Hornady still leaves most the same size the size die made the brass.
I feel this is why the dies work so good. Just remember that soft boolits will get squeezed down good when entering that section.

[Frank]

The Hornady expander does expand a short section and when you have just enough bell to set a boolit in, the expanded section lets the boolit get a straight start. Then the base enters an unexpanded section that is very tight.
Unlike the long expanders with other dies that open brass past the base of a boolit and reduce tension, the Hornady still leaves most the same size the size die made the brass.
I feel this is why the dies work so good. Just remember that soft boolits will get squeezed down good when entering that section.

The RCBS expander I have is adjustable. You can go as deep as the button will go, or go less deep. It gives the proper case tension also. The Hornady expander is fixed. Maybe your gas check opens up the rest.

[44man]

The RCBS expander I have is adjustable. You can go as deep as the button will go, or go less deep. It gives the proper case tension also. The Hornady expander is fixed. Maybe your gas check opens up the rest.
The RCBS expander will go too deep when you run it in far enough to flare the mouth. The best thing to do is to cut the thing off so it only goes in about 3/16". My worst loads were with RCBS. Lyman still has a habit of making expanders that do not work for revolvers. Guys use the "M" die for soft lead. Fine for a rifle but it destroys case tension needed in a revolver.
Some time ago a gun writer found the problem with the .45 Colt using RCBS dies. The company listened to HIM and changed the expander, but only for the .45. It is still too long. Strange it took the writer so long to find the problem and stranger still that die makers still look at revolver boolits as dead soft boolits shot with fast powder. What a horrible combination! :veryconfu
It is so bad I can't believe it. I bought a neck size die for my 45-70 BFR and it sizes so little, boolits fall through the necks without expanding at all.
Is it any wonder that factory loaded jacketed bullets shoot so good?
Let's face it, cast boolits must get close to jacketed in order to shoot. You can't dump in a putty ball and get accuracy.

[Frank]

The best thing to do is to cut the thing off so it only goes in about 3/16".
I can adjust the RCBS die. If I need a bell, I can use the .45 Colt expander. The number you gave me above filled in the last blank to at least duplicate what you are doing with the tools I have.

[ddeaton]

Ok guys, I have read this post and the link post on the Ruger forum over and over till I think I got it. [smilie=b:
But, I have a question, and might bring this off topic. I am learning from all the knowledge on here and shooting with Dale53, so here goes.
How much different is it for the fast pistol powders like Bullseye in a 45ACP and bullseye shooting? I am loading on a Dillon 650 and the powder die expander is pretty small. A local gunsmith gave me a couple powder dies with a tad larger ID and I gave it a try on some inert rounds for some tests. He says these were made for the bullseye shooters loading lead on the Dillon's. I taper crimp separate as the last step and these test rounds sure went together nice. The expander length is short, and with the taper crimp these sure look like they will work. I did the vise test, without any measuring devices and in a hurry, and it took quite a bit to squeeze the boolit into the case. I am going to load up some live stuff and see how they shoot. Mind you, these are light HG68 3.7 grs Bullseye loads. What do you all think?
I am not just trying this without reason, the Dillon is designed to load jacketed and in the production mode. I have all my measurements at the house and can post later. I dont remember exactly and dont want to spout off and be wrong.

[44man]

I think you will be OK. The auto does not need as much tension. As long as feeding or recoil with a magazine full does not move boolits.
You don't want to size boolits seating either. You still want a good fit to the barrel.
The revolver is the hardest to get accurate and where you need to pay attention. There is no need to go through all the gyrations for an auto. But some stuff can still be put into practice to see if accuracy improves. Don't be afraid to experiment with boolit hardness and lubes, etc.

[jack19512]

The dies you use will make or break accuracy before you even start and you can work with the wrong dies for years with no improvement.







This could be my problem when it comes to my Ruger 44 mag. :( So far I have only used the Lee dies.

[ddeaton]

This could be my problem when it comes to my Ruger 44 mag. :( So far I have only used the Lee dies.

Tell me about it, this thread has me double checking everything now.

[fecmech]

I don't think case tension in the .45 auto would be that big of a deal as long as mentioned before the is no movement of the bullet in the mag or up the feed ramp. If you are loading bullseye loads with the bullet shoulder slightly out of the case into the lead as is the normal practice I would guess bullet release would be fairly even. In my .45 wad gun (which is about a 2.5" 50 yd gun) even mixed brass does not seem to hurt accuracy very much at 50 yds unlike my K38 which will not shoot under 3" at all( more like 3.5-4") with mixed brass.

[Frank]

I have an RCBS 44 mag F/L and expander. I bought the Hornady expander on this board's suggestion. :drinks: The Hornady expander expands .001" more than the RCBS. :groner: A set of calipers tell's the best truth.

If I had a Lee 44 mag die set, I would measure a sized case. What do you get? Same with the expander. Measure an expanded case, top and bottom. Don't buy dies before you do this.

[44man]

I have an RCBS 44 mag F/L and expander. I bought the Hornady expander on this board's suggestion. :drinks: The Hornady expander expands .001" more than the RCBS. :groner: A set of calipers tell's the best truth.

If I had a Lee 44 mag die set, I would measure a sized case. What do you get? Same with the expander. Measure an expanded case, top and bottom. Don't buy dies before you do this.
Not to worry. I just measured a case expanded with the Hornady and with a small hole gage it is .429" just below the bell. But down near the base of a boolit it is .425". Using a caliper that is the worst to measure with, I get .430" at the mouth.
Fellas that use dead soft lead can readily see what the brass will do to the boolit. A nice .432" boolit will probably be sized to .427" or .429" and maybe tapered to be smaller at the base.
It is the EVENNESS from case to case you need along with just enough tension. You have to stop trying for as much as you can get. The Hornady will do exactly what is needed. Just load and shoot.
The Hornady expander only goes 3/16" into the brass and as I explained, the rest of the boolit goes into as sized brass, it is very tight.
Brass is NOT ROUND at the mouth and very hard to measure, Calipers are the worst for ID's unless they have a knife edge but they will not round out the case mouth so you will get two different measurements.
You must stop measuring and shoot groups. The brass will not tell you a single thing until the boolit comes out of the barrel.
I have suggested Hornady dies because of the years of work and that they match my special BR dies without all the work. But you need the whole set because they also size the right amount and have an inline seat die that rivals a BR seat die. Using an RCBS size die and seat die takes important things away from your loading.
Accuracy is just too simple to get so involved. A revolver is different then a single shot or auto or a rifle. Stick to the basic problems each has. There is no magic, no measurements that everyone can use but there are ground rules each type of gun needs.
Put down the calipers! I have only measured things for you Frank, I never cared what I had, only a small group every time around is what counts. Most of my loading is by feel. My micrometer is for measuring boolits. Overall length is also something to throw in the bucket, if it fits the gun without sticking out the front of the cylinder, there is no reason it will not shoot good.
I want to make things easy for you, not hard. :drinks:

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
I am convinced that the Hornady Custom dies will help so dies for the 357 mag will be my next purchase.
I will also try a different lube as soon as I run out of my home made beeswax/axil grease/cabara wax mix which will be soon. Wife HATES THE STINK when I melt it to pour into my Lyman lube sizer. Any suggestions?
If the Hornady dies make a diff. w/ the 357, I will buy a set for the 44.

[jack19512]

If the Hornady dies make a diff. w/ the 357, I will buy a set for the 44.








When I get my SBH 44 mag back from Ruger if I still can't get it to shoot this will be my next move also. It's been gone almost 5 weeks now. :cry:

[44man]

Hi,
I am convinced that the Hornady Custom dies will help so dies for the 357 mag will be my next purchase.
I will also try a different lube as soon as I run out of my home made beeswax/axil grease/cabara wax mix which will be soon. Wife HATES THE STINK when I melt it to pour into my Lyman lube sizer. Any suggestions?
If the Hornady dies make a diff. w/ the 357, I will buy a set for the 44.
If you make your own, only Felix lube works for me. If you buy, go to Lar's site for the best. I love his Carnauba Red, almost as good as Felix, no group size difference between them to worry about.
You would be hard pressed to find any better lubes anywhere.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Went to all the nearby gun stores looking for a set of Hornady custom dies in 357.
the cupboard was bare, found a set for the 44 mag. so I bought them. Will try them out .
Found the 357 R-P brass Feels looser/easier to bell than WW brass.
Also found that Federal brass feels in between R-P & WW brass in case tension.
HAve you found the same?

[felix]

Yes, it's been that way for most lots of 357 from the beginning. Relation is not so in other calibers, such as 44 maggie. ... felix

[44man]

HI,
Went to all the nearby gun stores looking for a set of Hornady custom dies in 357.
the cupboard was bare, found a set for the 44 mag. so I bought them. Will try them out .
Found the 357 R-P brass Feels looser/easier to bell than WW brass.
Also found that Federal brass feels in between R-P & WW brass in case tension.
HAve you found the same?
I still have Federal brass for my .44 and use a lot of Rem brass. I feel Starline and Fed are close.
I quit using WW brass long ago because of so many dimensional differences. I found all kinds of variations in rim thickness. Many of their calibers have very thin necks too.
I can't say for the .357 but with that small of a case, I would not be mixing them.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I found out several yrs. ago from a comment here on this site that mixing brass of different manufacture could/would double group size for pistols.
Before that I had kept rifle brass segregated by manufacture, but not pistol brass.
It was simple to just set up small buckets & just segregate the brass in manufacture groups as I sized after shooting. Took awhile but was shooting the brass anyway.
Unfortunately I will never be able to segregate by lot as most of my brass is scrounged range brass.
My focus is both the 357 & the 44mags.So I appreciate your comment on both.

[Frank]

Buy a new lot of brass. It's easy and works best. You open up the package, they all fall in the tray. Run them thru the carbide die, expand, prime and shoot. Forget the range brass. Too much labor to pick it up. Empty yours in a coffee can after you shoot. Don't let it fall on the ground. Again, more labor. You can shoot them all "first in, first out", don't let more get shot and reloaded more than another, then they will be like two different batches, tension wise. Shoot them all the same amount. Same brass, same tension, best accuracy, least labor, most efficency. Work smart. Take fewer shots, make each shot count. Everything is deliberate. No unnecessary motion. :redneck:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
As a school teacher with limited funds I scrounge. When I was younger I did buy about 2,500 357 brass, but now have about 5000 357 brass. The result of consistent scrounging of range brass. Don't figure I need to buy more.
Have about 3,500 44 brass, probably bought 3/4 of that and scrounged the rest.
No different than recycling range lead, or scrounging tire wts.
It allows me to shoot much more than I could afford to .
Scrounging has gotten harder since just before the last election.

[Frank]

You should have one good lot for testing. 100 Starline 44 mag cases are $18.99. I would rather have 50 cases of the same lot, than 5,000 mixed brass. Save money by shooting for groups, less quantity but more quality.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I just shot some PMC 357 brass.
Sized & deprimed as usual, after tumbling .
Started to bell & re prime.
Case neck tension seems to be very close to WW brass (tight) so I would guess it is thicker brass.

Now the weird part I could not seat the CCI primers for 6 strait cases.
So I took a drill bit & camphored the primer pockets . Then With a lot of effort I was able to seat the primers, but they all just fell out after wards. They appeared to be swaged down.
This was a hot load 13grs. WC820 pushing a 180gr bullet. But not too hot for the Redhawk & have 300+ PMC brass I have done this with before with no problem.
Also a way too hot load will enlarge primer pockets.
What the heck is happening ???
Primer pocket shrinkage???

[44man]

That is strange. Check and see if the primer punch is aligned with the pocket.
How does a hand tool work?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
It was the same problem for all the brass I shot that day 85 cases in all.
I have loaded these cases before with no problems.

[44man]

HI,
It was the same problem for all the brass I shot that day 85 cases in all.
I have loaded these cases before with no problems.
I still think something is wrong with your priming tool, shell holder, etc.
Clean everything up. Maybe some ejected primers caught in the ram.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
cleaned the shellholder & all 85 cases primed ok.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Can not remember for sure, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Super Vel was made by Norma.
Anyway shot about 85 of those 2 types of brass, noticed they are definitely longer than all my other brass, so may have to invest in a collet & pilot for my Forster case trimmer so that I can trim my 357 brass---OOOH BOY THAT WILL BE A LOT OF WORK! ARUGGG!
But not till I can get the Hornady Dies for the 357.

Both the Norma & Super Vel brass seem to feel about the same as Federal cases in case tension. Has anyone found any different?

[44man]

HI,
Can not remember for sure, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Super Vel was made by Norma.
Anyway shot about 85 of those 2 types of brass, noticed they are definitely longer than all my other brass, so may have to invest in a collet & pilot for my Forster case trimmer so that I can trim my 357 brass---OOOH BOY THAT WILL BE A LOT OF WORK! ARUGGG!
But not till I can get the Hornady Dies for the 357.

Both the Norma & Super Vel brass seem to feel about the same as Federal cases in case tension. Has anyone found any different?
Rig your trimmer for a variable speed drill and make sure you lube the shaft.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well been shooting up some old 357 loads again.
R-P family is still the least in case neck tension.
CDC brass which I believe is Magtech is almost as light in case neck tension- but this impression may be the result of their brass being shorter.
At least I have been told that their brass is shorter than average.
Has any of you guys checked this ??????????
S&W & BROWNING feel almost the same to me, very close to Federal in case neck tension.
I actually wonder if this brass was produced for S&W & BROWNING by another manufacturer maybe Federal.
Does anyone of you guys know if they made their own loads??????/
HSM & AP are higher in case neck tension than Federal, HSM is real close to the WW family of brass in case neck tension.
I wounder who makes the HSM & AP brass???????

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
THE 357 BRASS SAGA CONTINUES...
S&W is tighter than HSM ,
So in the high case neck tension group it goes from most to least WW, S&W,BROWNING, HSM.PMC,& AP.

I think that SPEER,CCI, DMW, SPEER-DMW all feel the same, I think they are all 1 co. now even thought they were not when some of this brass was made. On the lighter end near R-P.

DENVER is near FRONTIER . FEDERAL,NORMA/SUPER VEL,& STARLINE in the middle as to case tension . With CBC being just a tad lighter than Federal.
IF YOU DISAGREE LET ME KNOW PLEASE.

[44man]

HI,
THE 357 BRASS SAGA CONTINUES...
S&W is tighter than HSM ,
So in the high case neck tension group it goes from most to least WW, S&W,BROWNING, HSM.PMC,& AP.

I think that SPEER,CCI, DMW, SPEER-DMW all feel the same, I think they are all 1 co. now even thought they were not when some of this brass was made. On the lighter end near R-P.

DENVER is near FRONTIER . FEDERAL,NORMA/SUPER VEL,& STARLINE in the middle as to case tension . With CBC being just a tad lighter than Federal.
IF YOU DISAGREE LET ME KNOW PLEASE.
Sounds OK to me. Just load by brand for each batch. When you change shooting to another brass you might have a difference in POI is all. Might be an inch or three but what would be good to do is use a different boolit in each brand. Most need a sight change anyway! :drinks:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I do not see how the crank handle can be removed to put power to the trim bit end??????????
This would be a smart thing to do with the about 5,000 -357 brass I have to trim.
It looks like I need to do this if I want to 1" groups at 50yds even.:roll:

[44man]

HI,
I do not see how the crank handle can be removed to put power to the trim bit end??????????
This would be a smart thing to do with the about 5,000 -357 brass I have to trim.
It looks like I need to do this if I want to 1" groups at 50yds even.:roll:
I don't know what trimmer you have but my RCBS just has a screw holding the handle on. I replace the screw with a long one with the head cut off and chuck it in the drill.
Forster has a power adapter that does the same thing but is larger in diameter to fit the drill better.
Most handles unscrew somehow. I would not try it with a Redding, they turn the case and I think the handle is permanent.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Went up on squaw peak & shot 50 7MM/06 & 60 357.
OK I would like to know who makes .I. ( dot I dot) & *I* ( star I star) brass ???
Is it an early headstamp for Magtech???
It is in the light case neck group almost the same as R-P.
Also shot some S&B brass Also in the light case neck tension group.
Who makes S&B brass???

[mod70]

What is winchester wadcutter brass?
John Roberts

[fecmech]

That would be the Winchester brass with the double canelure about halfway down the side of the case.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Continuing my search for so Hornady custom dies in 357. No luck yet locally.
Shot off some ZERO & G.F.L. brass . They seem to fit in the middle case neck tension group.
Have noticed that S&W as well as HSM brass seem to vary in case length & neck tension a bit. But are definitely in the High case neck tension group.

[Lloyd Smale]

Kind of funny its not mentioned more but all the fooling around with powders primres bullets ect in trying to find the best load for a gun and just switch dies can make as big of a difference as any of these. Im sure its tension that does this. Im not that much of a precision loader that im going to measure neck tension or even sort brass for most handguns but i do try to find a favorite set of dies for each caliber. After loosing everything it the fire one of my biggest losses was my favorite die pile. Im starting over in that reguard now. Some guys feel its to expensive to buy two or three sets of die in each caliber to experiment with but bottom line is they cost no more then a box of bullets these days and you can allways sell the ones you dont use or donate them to an auction here.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
IFIRC one should avoid canelured brass (at least in brass for accuracy testing) as it does not stretch evenly after firing, so 1 side may get longer than the other.
If I am wrong in this belief I hope some one on the board will please correct me.

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
Well finished shooting up some of my old odds & ends scroungrd range brass.
Here are my results:
Midway brass seems to be in the lite case neck tension group
AP in the medium group.
G&B varies a lot in length & case neck tension from lite to medium to heavy.
BHA brass seems in the lite case neck tension group.
S&B brass seems in the lite group.
Star brass seems to be in the light group, but not as consistent as R-P brass.

If you disagree please post your findings.
I have a few more rounds to shoot up, but Don't know if I have any different headstamps.
If any of the board members have other makes of brass I would like to know their findings on case neck tension, so please post it here.

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
This is the end of the different brass types I have. Have to shoot up some old loads in R-P brass then my next project will be to trim them all BLAH!

HERE IS THE LATEST RESULTS:
ELD brass seems to be in the high Case neck tension group.
GFL brass seems to be light CNT group.
SPCUM brass is in the light CNT group
MRP brass is in the light CNT group.
NEVINS brass is in the light CNT group.

I don't even know who makes these kinds of brass.
If there are others out there , please post your findings, in case I find some.

[gunsbrad]

44 man,

I have followed this thread and others for a long time. I do not doubt what you claim is true. I want to refer specifically to 1/2 to 1" groups at 50 yds. You have posted the groups many times for all to see, and I applaud you.

My question is this. You typically use some sort of optical sight to achieve this(I think). What is your opinion on the capability of quality iron sights alone.

Thanks

Brad Hurt

[44man]

44 man,

I have followed this thread and others for a long time. I do not doubt what you claim is true. I want to refer specifically to 1/2 to 1" groups at 50 yds. You have posted the groups many times for all to see, and I applaud you.

My question is this. You typically use some sort of optical sight to achieve this(I think). What is your opinion on the capability of quality iron sights alone.

Thanks

Brad Hurt
I used to do it with open sights too and can still pull it off from Creedmore with my glasses on because the position gets the sights farther from my eyes.
I do not use a scope, I use a red dot because I hunt with them. The dot is hard to use for groups because it covers a lot of target. On top of that I need new glasses because the dot is no long round for me. I would shoot smaller groups with a good scope.
The only thing I can truely say is my revolvers are shooting beyond my vision capabilities so I have no idea what they can really do.
Open sights are just fine if you can see.
I am almost 72 and have so many floaters now that when I hunt I see things move everywhere! [smilie=b:

[500MAGdaddy]

I'm still really new to this casting and loading buisness, but, when I load for my 500 It did seem like a good thing to be able to feel the grooves of the boolit through the brass...guess I'm getting plenty of tension in my cases and the proof for me was the first range test. A Lyman 5010680 375gr SWC over 18.5 gr of LongShot produced consistant 1 inch groups at 50yds with open sights from the bench. Not bad for a 4" wheelgun.

[Char-Gar]

Boy..what a thread! Talking majoring on the minor! Here is what I know on the subject at hand.

1. The importance of neck tension varies from cartridge to cartridge, powder to powder and bullet to bullet. This variance runs from almost not important, to some importance to significant importance.

2. To get a good crimp and good tension, you need cases to be of uniform length. They will all stretch in an uneven manner and cases with cannalures will stretch the most. I use a file trim die when I seek target quality loads.

3. Cases from the same make and lots will produce better accuracy, but the notion of mixed cases doubling the groups is mostly BS. The increase of group size with mixed cases again ranges from slight to signicant depending on...... etc. etc.

You can avoid most of this angst by.

1. buy and old fashion non-carbide die and size your cases. You can lube a large quanity of cases by putting case lube on your hands and kneeding the batch of cases. Ammo should be wipped clean before shooting regardless of how it is loaded...right?

2. Don't use a neck expander at all.

3. bell the case mouth and seat your bullets to a uniform depth and apply a uniform crimp.

Now your ammo will look like the snake that swallowed the pig and you can see all of the lube grooves. Don't let that throw you.

You won't damage any jacketed bullet or cast bullet from any reasonable decent alloy.

The above will render any difference in case thickness or die tolerances of no consequence.

If you are shooting soft swaged bullet or hollow based bullet you have a different kettle of fish. They can be damaged. In that case you will need to use you expanding plug.

With everything else being correct, you can kill any critter and win any match with ammo assembled as per above. If that is not good enough, then just enjoy your quest for nirvana. I would want to deny you that pleasure.

Live long and happy! Shoot more and enjoy it to the fullest with no angst over the little stuff.

[felix]

Yep, the faster the powder speed (ignition) for the load, the less importance can be given to the neck length, but the STATIC compression on the projectile always remains most important and must be consistent for all rounds (before the primers are hit). ... felix

[ole 5 hole group]

I'm still really new to this casting and loading buisness, but, when I load for my 500 It did seem like a good thing to be able to feel the grooves of the boolit through the brass...guess I'm getting plenty of tension in my cases and the proof for me was the first range test. A Lyman 5010680 375gr SWC over 18.5 gr of LongShot produced consistant 1 inch groups at 50yds with open sights from the bench. Not bad for a 4" wheelgun.

That is just amazing shooting - I've competed in pistol competition for many years and never have seen anyone shoot a 100X10 at 50 yards with a 22, 38 or 45. Doing it with a 50 caliber is just amazing. At 25 yards I can do 2” with my S&W500with my best reloads but then again I can shoot a 4 inch or larger ten shot group just as easy at 25 yards.

[Char-Gar]

'That is just amazing shooting - I've competed in pistol competition for many years and never have seen anyone shoot a 100X10 at 50 yards with a 22, 38 or 45. Doing it with a 50 caliber is just amazing. At 25 yards I can do 2” with my S&W500with my best reloads but then again I can shoot a 4 inch or larger ten shot group just as easy at 25 yards. "

A hearty AMEN to that "Ol 5 hole". I have over 50 years extensive shooting and reloading handguns of all types, including a number of years of high level Bullseye shooting.

I have never seen anybody and any pistol that could shoot the kind of consistant 50 yard groups mentioned by the poster. An occasional "fluke" group, yea! But consistant and on demand..never seen that. Before I read that I would have taken an oath that kind of grouping was beyond the mechanical accuracy of 99.99999% of sixguns. You always have to leave room for the magic "Excaliber" sixgun when it shows up. He must have the real mojo!

[44man]

'That is just amazing shooting - I've competed in pistol competition for many years and never have seen anyone shoot a 100X10 at 50 yards with a 22, 38 or 45. Doing it with a 50 caliber is just amazing. At 25 yards I can do 2” with my S&W500with my best reloads but then again I can shoot a 4 inch or larger ten shot group just as easy at 25 yards. "

A hearty AMEN to that "Ol 5 hole". I have over 50 years extensive shooting and reloading handguns of all types, including a number of years of high level Bullseye shooting.

I have never seen anybody and any pistol that could shoot the kind of consistant 50 yard groups mentioned by the poster. An occasional "fluke" group, yea! But consistant and on demand..never seen that. Before I read that I would have taken an oath that kind of grouping was beyond the mechanical accuracy of 99.99999% of sixguns. You always have to leave room for the magic "Excaliber" sixgun when it shows up. He must have the real mojo!
Not so at all. Any quality made revolver, Ruger, S&W, BFR and a few Freedoms will far outstrip what the nut behind the grip can do.
Loading procedures are the key.
There is just nothing wrong with a good revolver.
S&W is making some fantastic revolvers that might still have a few problems but they are not in the accuracy department.
True, they will never match a single shot pistol or a good rifle and we should not expect them to but consistent 1", 3/4" and even 1/2" groups at 50 yards is fully in the realm of a revolver.
If you can't do it it is either your shooting or loading, not the guns fault.
Watch Bob Munden break a balloon at 200 yards with a 2" snubby and tell me he magically steered the boolit. He can hand 99.99999 percent of us his revolver and most can't do it at 25 yards.
A gun can be a bad shooter for a lot of reasons and the shooter will never get anywhere, yet put the most accurate gun in the hands of a poor shooter and he will not hit a thing either.
Take control of your gun, don't let fear take control of you. Most of you flinch from sandbags! [smilie=1:

[Char-Gar]

Well there you have it! The problem is solved! Me and every other pistol shooter I have know for a half century are just piss poor shooters, afraid of our guns and afflicted with flinchitis. Shame none of us noticed this years ago, so we could have done it right. I will get right on it, now that I know the problem.













" Don't piss down my back and tell me it is raining" ...Old Texas Saying

[BOOM BOOM]

HI
LETS STICK TO THE TOPIC GUYS.
I have tried to give some good info here.
I have also appreciated the advice given.
I have bought 1 new set of 44 dies and am looking for a set in 357. because of that advice.
I am now going to trim pistol brass, I had thought it was not that important in revolver brass, but have been convinced it is well worth the trouble. because of that advice.
I now have sorted my pistol brass as to manufactures headstamp, were as before ( about 2 yrs. ago) I did not realize that it made that much difference in pistols.
I have asked several questions in earlier posts that have not been answered, so if anyone knows the answers please post them.
I am grateful to all those who have posted loading helpful hints, I do hope you will continue to do so.
It has been mentioned that case neck tension in the 357 brass is not the same as in the 44mag brass.
So the next step for me is to find out the relative case neck tension groups in 44 mag. brass.
I have focused on the 357 & 44 as these are the 2 cal. I have, and they are very popular cal. on the board.
1 thing I have found is that case length & case neck tension varies some in all the groups of brass I have tested. So the groupings I have posted is the average.

I wonder which make of brass is the worst in consistency????????
Also once again I ask is it true that Magtec brass is shorter than other brass?????
If it is than it may be best to trim all my brass to the Magtec length for consistency???
I do not have much 38 spl. but have posted what I found.
Some one else who has a lot of 38 spl. should post that.
Also 45 LC would be a good case to do a posting on. I wish I had one.

[felix]

BB, let's see if I can sum up what is important. 1. Seat boolits by feel only, placing loaded round into the correct "feel" pile. 2. Using each pile independently, crimp by feel, and thus separating the piles even further. This has nothing to do with case length or brand, provided such length does not exceed the gun's chambered neck. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix... You are yanking our chain..right?

[felix]

Charles, not really. The big question is how can we accomplish this without taking each round seriously, like using progressive machines. I might do the crimping operation by feel, but I don't go further than that. Two piles: one for long range, one for short range. Bench guns, or equivalent, get the royal treatment, like neck turning, etc. ... felix

[44man]

[quote=Chargar;631665]Well there you have it! The problem is solved! Me and every other pistol shooter I have know for a half century are just piss poor shooters, afraid of our guns and afflicted with flinchitis. Shame none of us noticed this years ago, so we could have done it right. I will get right on it, now that I know the problem.
Well you talk a good story but you never show what you do so where would I class you as a shooter?
Even you have to admit most revolver shooters can't get the best out of their guns.
Since I did not mention you, or anyone else for that matter, why did you take it personally?
It seems to me there are a heck of a lot of good shooters here but there are as many that have trouble. I don't know who they are so why did you jump on me when you know I am right. You sound guilty!
The easy way is to show everybody if you think I am starting a class war, which I am not, I could care less what class you are in.
There are always a few that do not agree with anything I say, I accept that and don't care. What I don't understand is why those few do not prove I am wrong.
You admitted shortcomings when you jumped on 500---I believe him and will tell him right off, nice shooting!

[44man]

Boom Boom, back to the subject. I don't know if I showed you this before. I did a test with new, unfired, .44 brass to see differences in boolit pull and grain structure. I also sorted according to where the shots grouped. Notice there are six or more different group positions.
There are 50 shots on the target.
A fella told me he used new virgin brass for every IHMSA shoot. I said brass should be shot some to equalize tension more.
Unlike a rifle, the revolver does not do well with new brass.

[Char-Gar]

44 Posting pictures of targets means nothing and proves nothing. We don't know who shot the target, when the target was shot or at what range. I have read some outlanding stuff on these gun boards and have seen some outlandish targets as well.

A fellow has to apply what he knows from his own experience to this stuff posted on the internet and filter it through his BS detector. Lots of stuff don't make it through the filter and set of the BS detector. Words, pics. make no difference.

I don't think a "show and tell" means much and am not interested in seeing whose thingie is longer. Things are what they are and each person can come to his own judgment and opinion on whatever is the issue at hand.

[Char-Gar]

Felix.. No doubt there is a different feel to various rounds as they are crimped and I am certain this must be some indicator of something to do with the brass. But honeslty, I have always thought that was to subjective to have much value as a reloading tool. I am going to have to rethink that one.

[felix]

Whatever gives most consistent ignition (first couple of milliseconds or so) is what you want to do for the best results. We have to keep in mind that 44man's pistols are his rifles, and his results with them makes that apparent to me. ... felix

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have been a member of this board for some time, before the move to this site.
I have been reloading since the late 1960's, casting since the 70's.
This site & it's members are the most knowledgeable I've found.
I am not a beginner, and am a fair shot.
I AM LISTENING. Most every time I have time to read the threads on this board I can learn something, or get something to think about.
Please don't turn this tread into a personal argument.

I think by" feel" you can detect 3 groups of 357 brass by case tension. Using the most common brass make as group examples :
A high tension group like Winchester brass which seems to size my cast bullets all by itself.
Winchester Brass was my favorite as I always got the best groups with it in my rifles with jacked bullets. 7MM/06, 7MM MAG, 220SWIFT. Now I have learned it may NOT be the best in my pistols. And I had always tried to do my pistol accuracy load testing with with Winchester brass as I had such good luck with it in my rifles. :roll:
A middle tension group like Federal.
A light tension group Like Remington.

So which 357brass do you feel is the most consistent?????
Also it would be nice if someone could answer my other question PLEASE.
Now this test/research has been done with 5,000 357 cases. So it should be a good statical sample.

Has anyone tested 44 mag brass????

[44man]

HI,
I have been a member of this board for some time, before the move to this site.
I have been reloading since the late 1960's, casting since the 70's.
This site & it's members are the most knowledgeable I've found.
I am not a beginner, and am a fair shot.
I AM LISTENING. Most every time I have time to read the threads on this board I can learn something, or get something to think about.
Please don't turn this tread into a personal argument.

I think by" feel" you can detect 3 groups of 357 brass by case tension. Using the most common brass make as group examples :
A high tension group like Winchester brass which seems to size my cast bullets all by itself.
Winchester Brass was my favorite as I always got the best groups with it in my rifles with jacked bullets. 7MM/06, 7MM MAG, 220SWIFT. Now I have learned it may NOT be the best in my pistols. And I had always tried to do my pistol accuracy load testing with with Winchester brass as I had such good luck with it in my rifles. :roll:
A middle tension group like Federal.
A light tension group Like Remington.

So which 357brass do you feel is the most consistent?????
Also it would be nice if someone could answer my other question PLEASE.
Now this test/research has been done with 5,000 357 cases. So it should be a good statical sample.

Has anyone tested 44 mag brass????
You are still putting too much into it and have to learn to relax more. The difference between brass of all makes is small and as long as you don't mix brands for group shooting all is well. I tried to show that even good brass, when new, can have a problem. It applies to ALL brands and there is nothing you can do about it. You are wasting time and resources searching for a brand that is better.
Just pick one and don't worry. I shoot all brands of .44 brass and all do the same thing, I just keep them separate.
Notice how Charger hates me? [smilie=1: He does no extensive testing and can't show anything to help you. I guess me showing what new brass does is silly to him, yet he can't refute it.
I will say that the load is the 265 gr RD with 22 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer and will hold consistent 3/4" groups at 50 yards. The brass is Remington and was shot at 50 yards. As the brass work hardens the groups will tighten but a few cases might need sorted out. Now the 1/4" group I shot with this load was shot with Rem brass that was shot over 40 times. I have never, ever lost a .44 case by splitting. I use Midway, Rem, Fed, Starline without a hitch. I don't like WW in some calibers.
Don't expect much "show and tell" from now on, I will just lie and say I get 1/4" revolver groups at 200 yards, much easier from the keyboard and I will save lead! :mrgreen::mrgreen:
I have to leave it to the "expert" to answer your questions.
Listen to Felix, he says stuff in a round about way at times but he has always been correct.
And don't worry about how crimping feels, not important, it is only boolit seating feel that is. Crimp does zero for accuracy, it only holds the boolit under recoil. I will not get into years of crimp testing because I will just get bashed again. :drinks:
I rarely load just to shoot, I load to learn and can get more out of 20 shots then most do with 100,000. Oh good, the gun went off and there is no lead in the bore, better yet, it hit the paper somewhere at 10 yards so it is good to go! Gun rag education at it's finest!
Boom Boom, there are some super guys and shooters here but others resist change so hard it baffles me. Just loosen up, shoot more and get what you can out of it by evaluating what is going on.

[Char-Gar]

Felix... I agree fully that consistant ignition is a key to good sixgun accuracy. The question I have is which of the "feel" piles of ammo will give the most consistant ignition. I can see that segregating them into groups based on crimp feel would give a group of rounds with better chance of consistant ignition. The question is, which of the feel piles is the better pile and why? Be gentle with me, I am in learning mode here.

As to 44 and his rifles, we will have to agree to think and let think.

[Char-Gar]

"Notice how Charger hates me?"..44 man.

No 44, I most certainly don't hate you. I don't even dislike you. I don't know you well enough to have any feelings about your one way or another. You might be somebody I would cherish as a friend. You might be somebody I would seek to avoid.

The fact that I don't buy into some of the stuff you post, means no more than that. I don't buy into some of the stuff you post. No more and no less.

I can honestly say that I don't hate anybody. If I were to hate anybody that would be a deep spiritual problem for me.

If I have chosen my words poorly and you have just cause to think I have something personal again't you, then I most sincerly apoligize for the poor choice of words as they do not represent my feelings.

[44man]

"Notice how Charger hates me?"..44 man.

No 44, I most certainly don't hate you. I don't even dislike you. I don't know you well enough to have any feelings about your one way or another. You might be somebody I would cherish as a friend. You might be somebody I would seek to avoid.

The fact that I don't buy into some of the stuff you post, means no more than that. I don't buy into some of the stuff you post. No more and no less.

I can honestly say that I don't hate anybody. If I were to hate anybody that would be a deep spiritual problem for me.

If I have chosen my words poorly and you have just cause to think I have something personal again't you, then I most sincerly apoligize for the poor choice of words as they do not represent my feelings.
Accepted, but of course you knew I didn't really feel that way about you either. I was pulling your chain and it worked. You show yourself to be a fine person and I would be happy to be a friend.
All I ask is to try things before being against it.
Much, much work and thought has gone into my revolvers and it really is factual that they shoot that good.

[Char-Gar]

44, thank you for your gracious reply. It is appreciated.

Rightly or wrongly, I am at a place in my life where I don't feel the need to prove myself to be correct or or prove others to be incorrect.

I am content to state my experience and the conclusions I draw from that experience, and let others do the same.

I will willing to let others place what value they wish on what I have to say. It truly isn't important to me what value that is.

I am not running for the office of "Sixgun Yoda" or anything else. I am just an old guy who has been where he has been and done what he has done. I know what I know and don't know what I don't know. Others can figure out which is which.

Take care and keep em in the X-Ring.

[Char-Gar]

boom-boom.. Sorry to have steped on your thread. My response to you, is you were going the long way around. IMHO you are making things far more complex that necessary.

By removing the expanding plug, you will more than adequate tension on all rounds regardless of die or case make. Make certain the cases have uniform length, seperate the round by case make and you are good to go.

This matter of further seperating the rounds by "feel" is something I have not considered. I can see how going to this extra step will further increase the uniformity of tension for consistant ignition.

Right now I don't see the need to do the "feel" step unless somebody is just doing so for the sake of resarch into pure accuracy. I am not into pistol bench rest shooting concerned with the ultimate one hole group.

Ammo assembled as I have stated will win any match, kill any critter and group better than any shooter can hold with the pistol in his hands and not resting on some bench rest gizmo. That is the limit of my concern.

I guess where a fellow wanst to go will to a great extent determine how he gets there. I could be wrong, but I think you are the type of guy who enjoys the research with the researching being the goal itself.

However, there are lots and lots of folks who read these threads who are not into the joy of research, but reload for another purpose. i.e. to win a match or kill a critter. My response is really directed to those folks. If it does not scratch where you itch, then just disregard the post. I misread your initial goal and that is my fault.

[44man]

boom-boom.. Sorry to have steped on your thread. My response to you, is you were going the long way around. IMHO you are making things far more complex that necessary.

By removing the expanding plug, you will more than adequate tension on all rounds regardless of die or case make. Make certain the cases have uniform length, seperate the round by case make and you are good to go.

This matter of further seperating the rounds by "feel" is something I have not considered. I can see how going to this extra step will further increase the uniformity of tension for consistant ignition.

Right now I don't see the need to do the "feel" step unless somebody is just doing so for the sake of resarch into pure accuracy. I am not into pistol bench rest shooting concerned with the ultimate one hole group.

Ammo assembled as I have stated will win any match, kill any critter and group better than any shooter can hold with the pistol in his hands and not resting on some bench rest gizmo. That is the limit of my concern.

I guess where a fellow wanst to go will to a great extent determine how he gets there. I could be wrong, but I think you are the type of guy who enjoys the research with the researching being the goal itself.

However, there are lots and lots of folks who read these threads who are not into the joy of research, but reload for another purpose. i.e. to win a match or kill a critter. My response is really directed to those folks. If it does not scratch where you itch, then just disregard the post. I misread your initial goal and that is my fault.
Thank you for saying he gets too carried away. It is true, it is easier then all of those little things that can drive a guy nuts. Only a few basics to work with and then find what works the best for you.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Some one said" only accurate rifles are interesting",
Lefteye I believe said "only accurate pistols are interesting."
That"s where I am at.
I started out shooting just to hear the bang. Reloading so I could make more bangs(BOOMS).
I have only twice been able to get groups w/ cast that I considered noteworthy.
Seeing the posted groups by 44 man & some others has so changed my viewpoint that I am no longer content with what I was doing or the results I was getting.
Hell 44 man"s last posted target on this tread is better than I get, & if I understood right he posted it as a example of how bad a group can get if you use new brass. If I could get a 2" group at 100yds with a pistol I would be ecstatic! I can"t even do it consistently with cast in a rifle with a scope.
I believe it was a comment he made on another tread that opened my eyes that case neck tension was important in revolver accuracy.
When he said it ,just as a passing comment, my eyes opened wide as I had not even considered it before. The same goes with his comments on reloading dies.
So I had better change what I am doing.
This tread is part of the process of my figuring out how to do that.
I am pretty sure the crappy results are not the fault of my firearms.

[jandbn]

BB,

If you did not read 44Man's thread on case tension, here is the link:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=15296&highlight=tension.

I remember also seeing a pic of how 44Man managed to "measure" case tension into groups, but can's seem to locate the link. Maybe some one else can provide a link. The whole premise was to take one specific load combo and group that load by case tension only. Case, primer, powder charge, and boolit were all the same. The only variable is to the load was case tension.

[44man]

Here is the seating tension measuring tool again. I just start the boolit with the press handle and finish seating with the piano wire rod. The rubber washer will be moved to marks on the short rod because the spring rod bends and the washer needs to be reset each time.
Babore made a much more sophisticated one but he is a better craftsman then I am. I just use a hose clamp to hold the bottom of the rod to the handle. My handle is so close to the press links I have no room for an aluminum block unless I screw it right to the handle. I am going to make one for my RCBS press and play with the Lyman though.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I finnally found a set of hornady custom dies in 357 mag, bought them immediately:D.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Just had a chance to read 44 MAM'S CASE NECK TENSIONTHREAD.

WOW, I WISH I HAD READ THAT 40 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!
GREAT THREAD. THANK YOU 44MAN.
I especally liked the input by Bass Ackward, CBrick, Lar45, Felix, & Buckshot.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I finally have an answer for you. BEST CASE NECK TENSION IS BETWEEN 50 & 55 LBS. And if it is less than 45lbs you get poor results.
I finally got a chance to read the ruger forum link completely & got this from IOWEGAN he also has a nifty tool pictured (that I wish I had) to gauge when there is enough CNT.
Hope this helps.

ONCE AGAIN I WANT TO THANK VERY MUCH ALL WHO POSTED ON THIS THREAD FOR THERE HELP.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well here are my results with the brass I own.
IF ANYONE HAS OTHER BRANDS OF BRASS PLEASE POST YOUR FINDINGS!

HIGH CASE NECK TENSION=G.F.L.
FRONTIER.

MEDIUM CASE NECK TENSION = NORMA ( VARIES)
BHA (VARIES)
TOP BRASS (VARIES)
STAR
S&W
HSM
LE
ELD
SPEER (VARIES)
CBC
R-P
PMC

LOW CASE TENSION= IMPAC-3D
BROWNING ( VARYIES)

VERY LOW CNT= SUPERVEL

HOPE SOME ONE HAS WW BRASS???????????
ALSO HOPE SOME ONE HAS 44 SPECIAL BRASS THEY CAN LIST.

[44man]

HI,
Well here are my results with the brass I own.
IF ANYONE HAS OTHER BRANDS OF BRASS PLEASE POST YOUR FINDINGS!

HIGH CASE NECK TENSION=G.F.L.
FRONTIER.

MEDIUM CASE NECK TENSION = NORMA ( VARIES)
BHA (VARIES)
TOP BRASS (VARIES)
STAR
S&W
HSM
LE
ELD
SPEER (VARIES)
CBC
R-P
PMC

LOW CASE TENSION= IMPAC-3D
BROWNING ( VARYIES)

VERY LOW CNT= SUPERVEL

HOPE SOME ONE HAS WW BRASS???????????
ALSO HOPE SOME ONE HAS 44 SPECIAL BRASS THEY CAN LIST.
I ran out of picture room so had to delete a bunch.
However there is a little more to case tension some may miss. It is not entirely how tight brass is although a decent tension aids powder burn with 296, etc.
What really counts is that tension is as even from case to case as you can get.
I found extreme accuracy with brass a little looser as well as tighter but the affect on burn between them would move the POI.
This is what causes large groups, all different holds to the boolit, powder igniting different.
I found it easier to make the boolits harder so they are not sized when seating and make the tension tighter.
As you soften boolits, you need to alter the tension. Using a faster powder reduces the affect so a lighter tension on a soft boolit is not as drastic, however I still find the faster the powder, harder boolits group tighter.
You move from powder burn problems to boolit damage problems from high initial pressures.
The revolver really is a different case and what you do needs offset by something else until you reach a point that nothing helps so you need to rethink things.
I have never been able to read in pounds what tension really is or how many pounds it takes to seat a boolit but it sure does not feel like a lot, all I want is EVEN!