9mm Bore Leading Problem

[03lover]

I have a Dan Wesson Pointman 9. It had a few issues and Dan Wesson took care of them for me.

The answer to this leading problem is do what you have to do to keep the velocities low enough to prevent the leading.

In working up loads for this very tightly fitted pistol, I had to burn a lot of ammo before the slide loosened up enough to work with anything less than full charge loads. That meant light target loads with cast bullets still couldn't function the gun properly without loading heavy and that was causing a lot of leading. Also pushing pressures to the limit.

To shorten this story as much as possible, I now have close to (3000) rounds through the pistol, about half and half cast and jacketed bullets. I am able to use a eleven pound recoil spring now and the failures to go into battery have gone away.

I have really struggled with the 121gr. conical cast SWC bullet. Using Unique and Winchester 231 powders. I still have to load up enough to get good function of the pistol that velocities are high enough to cause leading. My 128gr. cast round nose works a bit better.

I have been able to keep leading down to what I consider minor, just a trace after fifty rounds, by using slower powders and still have good function of the pistol. I have used AA5 that is a little slower than my Unique and 231, and AA7. The AA7 is working out best for me. Accuracy is good at the lower powder charges that still cycle the gun.

Then I read a thread on one of the forums about others that were having similar problems and their solution to the problem was to use heavier bullets. The heavier bullet works well to provide loads that have the energy to cycle the gun well and at the same time produce the lower velocities required to prevent leading. My next cast bullet weight after the 128gr. RN is 150grains. I wish I had something in between, but I am going to try the 150gr. RN that is fairly blunt and does provide enough room for the powder when the bullet is properly seated.

I just want a cast bullet load that is accurate, doesn't lead the bore, cycles the gun well and is inexpensive to shoot.

I will post the results of my testing within the week.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?
What sizing diameter?
What lube?
What is the load/velocity with unique that reliably functions the action with the 121 conical?

Larry Gibson

[ChuckS1]

Can you get a reduced power recoil spring?

[zxcvbob]

I'm still using up the 135 grain cast bullets that I bought 3 years ago. I load them *hot* with +P loads of Bullseye and get no leading at all. When I use them all up (still have at least 500 left) I'm going to try my own 120 grain boolits, cast from wheel weights, water dropped to harden them, and again heavy loads of Bullseye. Give them a hard kick in the butt to upset them [pun intended] so they seal the bore to prevent gas cutting.

Red Dot is good for target loads. It has a very fast pressure curve (I've used it before with 125 grain cast bullets, but haven't used it with the 135's)

[badgeredd]

03lover said, "The answer to this leading problem is do what you have to do to keep the velocities low enough to prevent the leading."

03lover,

I have to ask why you believe that the velocity is your problem that is causing leading?

Are your boolits "hardcast" commercially? If not, what alloy and what is its hardness? Do they fit your barrel (bore plus .001/.002")? What lube are you using? What velocity are you shooting at?

I was getting leading in a 45 ACP at 700 fps. Then I joined this forum and found that the boolits DID fit the bore...NOT! They were bore sized with nothing extra and they were way too hard to upset upon firing. I cast my own, as per recommendations from fellow members and I no longer get leading AND I am shooting them at a higher speed.

Let us know ALL of the info and I am sure someone can get you going the right direction. Good luck.

Edd

[shotman]

I thought DW used the same barrel that Glock used {a better idea LOL} it dont work with lead

[HeavyMetal]

Did someone at Dan Wesson tell you you were leading because you were loading them to fast?

This is a common misconception promoted by those who do not load or do not load for pistol.

I believe these questions have been asked but I will ask again: are you casting the boolit's or are they store bought cast?

MIke them for diameter. Minimum is .356 and .357 may work better. It sounds like you have 355 cast commercial and are not shooting them hard enough to fill the bore and this can and will create some leading!

Until you post additional info were just guessing at the answers.

[03lover]

I will try to answer all of your questions.

I will start by saying the bore of my Dan Wesson slugs very close to .3552" and it isn't anything like a Glock. The bore is glass smooth as a good button rifled bore shoud be after close to 3000 rounds.

Dan Wesson hand fits their slides to the frame, so they typically start out snug. They send these PM 9 pistols out with a 10lb. recoil spring. Keith at Dan Wesson has been working with me on this one. As the slide loosened up some Keith recommended I go to a 11lb. recoil spring because I was getting failures to go into battery with the lighter spring. Keith also indicated these PM 9's when really broke in usually work best with a 12lb. recoil spring. A reduced weight recoil spring will not bring the slide back into battery.

As for the bullets I am using, I cast my own and use wheel weights with 2% tin. I have tried both air cooled and water dropped. I have tried sizing from .356" to .3575" in .0005" increments. The chamber is a bit on the tight side and the .3575" diameter bullets are slightly too tight and I have too many failures to go into battery. The .357" diameter is the largest that will chamber well.

When I get the heavier leading, it doesn't matter which bullet alloy or diameter I use, .356" to .357". Also when I get the heavy leading it is always with the light weight bullets that have to be pushed hard enough to cycle the gun. Also, with these loads, the tight chamber and snug bore, the loads with 231 and Unique that will cycle the gun are causing pressure signs with the Remington #1-1/2 primers. Cratering and sometimes the primer indent is pushed back into the firing pin hole and shaved off during ejection. This is a sign of excess pressure and some pressure tests supports that conclusion.

I have worked up loads using slower powders and using the same combination of bullets and the worst leading bullet, the 121grain cast semi wad cutter on top of 7.7 grains of AA7 doesn't lead. Nor does the 128 grain round nose Lyman I cast with the same powder charge.

Knowing the nature of my PM 9, I don't think using a faster powder to give the bullet a boot in the butt is going to cycle the gun without pressures becoming way excessive.

No one at Dan Wesson told me I had too high of velocities. I was told to be careful and anything more than slight cratering of the primers which does happen with some factory loads, is a good indication the pressures are getting too high.

I haven't chronographed any of these loads yet. I feel the velocities are high enough to cause the leading when I see pressure signs telling me I had better back off. When the primers start piercing and the base of the new brass starts to show expension of .002" up to .004", the headstamp letters start to get thin and some of the Remington brass starts to swell the extractor bevel to a point that I can no longer get the shell casing into the shell holder, I do have pressure way in excess of safe and velocity and pressure do go together. For now I can only go by the load tables.

zxcvbob, good to hear from you. I have a star BM in 9mm and I can run anything and everything through it without any of these problems. It never shows any pressure signs even with loads that pierce primers in the PM 9. But, it is not target shooter either.

I have no leading problem using the casting methods I use for all my pistol bullets in any of the other calibers I work with. You name it I probably have it, including 38 special, and 357 magnums using the same bullets I am using in the PM 9. This Dan Wesson PM 9 is a strange animal. It doesn't act like any other similar gun.

As I stated in my original thread, I read on one of the forums another shooter had the same problem and he found his loads that leaded were in the 1150fps and higher range. He used heavier bullets to help cycle the pistol and reduced powder charges to get the velocities down into the 800fps to 950fps range and the leading problem went away.

I have to try it. I do like the gun when I am shooting the loads that don't lead and they are accurate enough for me. one inch and less ten shot groups at fifty feet is OK for an old duffer like me and s semi auto pistol that didn't cost $3000.00 or more.

I am in the process of working up loads with the 150 grain RN bullets. I started ow with three powders to find the lowest powder charge with each powder that will cycle the gun, then I will work up. It will be a few days and I will post the results.

[MtGun44]

Tight match chambers can cause far higher pressures than standard loose chambers,
esp with a tiny cartridge like 9mm Para. Your gun is telling you that the 'normal loads'
are not acceptable in your gun. The kinds of indicators you are getting are the gun
screaming to you to stop shooting way overpressure loads.

Another factor is that your gun is a rare 9mm with a .355 groove diam. All of mine are
.357 or more, and I suspect that the reloading data is worked up for std (loose) chambers
and .357 groove diams.

What lube are you using? I get zero leading in several 9mms (Hi Pwr, Sig P6, Ber 92) with
Lee 122 over 6.8 Sp8 (rarely available Nobel powder) which is a normal full power load. I use
.357 or .358 diam boolits, WW aircooled, LBT Blue or .357 Max's red lube, or 50/50 Alox/BW
all work fine.

Bill

[shotman]

You say your working up loads and not crongraphing. Thats not to safe. If you are getting head damage you are loading to hot. Driving a bare base at 1100 with a fast burning powder can cause a melting effect on little bit of lead from the round before so it will snow ball

[HeavyMetal]

You also say you've hit a load of AA#7 that doesn't lead with either the 121 or the 128 grain boolit.

Both the load's you've posted should be in the 1100 FPS range and should be good to go.

Perhaps I am not getting what you are trying to acomplish?

[03lover]

MtGun44,

I appreciate your response. You are right about the tight chamber and bore raising pressures. I realized that early on when working up loads in this gun. I am using Thompson Lube, Bear lube Heat most of the time. It works fine in all of my guns, pistols and rifles. I am considering having this chamber opened up a little to relieve the problem.

shotman,

I have been at this for over 40 years and have learned much and admit there is more to learn. As for working up loads without the use of a chronograph being dangerous, that isn't necessarily true. Countless numbers of reloaders worked up loads long before chronographs were available and we used all the other pressure signs to warn us of problems.

Most of us understand the pressure signs and most of us understand pressure and velocity go hand in hand until you reach the point of no return where pressure builds up far faster than velocity. That is when the pressure signs are far beyond bad looking primers.

I am well aware that driving a plain base bullet faster than 1100fps can cause leading. That is why I am looking to the slower powders to see if I can find a load that has a longer pressure curve to cycle the gun and keep velocities down.

I need to make this very clear. The heavily cratered primers and any brass that showed unusual expansion during the testing of loads, therefore loads that are telling me they are way too hot, come on very suddenly in this gun. It doesn't matter how many I may have loaded up for testing, I stop right there, one is too many. I take the rest back to the loading bench and tear them down.

Also, the reason I prefer to use the Remington number 1-1/2 primers is they have the thinnest or softest cup of all the primers I use and therefore the slight indication of cratering that matches the Remington factory ammo is good guide to a safe maximum load.

HeavyMetal, Yes the 7.7grain loads with AA7 are working out well, they also show no pressure signs or leading. That is why I continue to work with the slower powders to see if others will work.

What I am trying to accomplish is developing cast bullet loads that are accurate and don't lead, in a gun that for the reasons stated, tends to resist that goal. This gun developes higher pressure faster than most and higher pressure means higher velocity that causes leading. Lesser prowder charges with fast or mid-range burn rates will not cycle the gun.

To All, Before anyone comes back and confronts me with the truth, I will admit I may be working very hard to compensate for a problem that is in the gun and not the loads. I like a challenge and don't give up easily. I am well aware this is true. It is my nature to try my darnest to come up with the answer to what is the real cause of the problem and can I get around it. If not I will fix the gun. I can come up with workable loads and have one now, but I am still considering having the chamber opened up a little.

Thanks again for all of you suggestion and questions.

[zxcvbob]

This gun developes higher pressure faster than most and higher pressure means higher velocity that causes leading. Lesser prowder charges with fast or mid-range burn rates will not cycle the gun.You need to try WSF powder then. It burns just like Herco but is a ball powder instead of largish flakes. I think you might be nearby; I can give you a little WSF to test if you want to give it a go.

WSF = Herco (sort of)
AA#7 = Blue Dot (sort of)

[HeavyMetal]

I'll second the choice of WSF.

I have had succsess with Bluedot as well using the Lee 124 RNL 2r mold.

However I think the slow powder theory your working with has a flaw in it.

Here the fly in the ointment, velocity. If the gun needs 30,000 psi to function your going to need a load that generates 30,000 psi to make it work!

While slower powders my change the location of the "peak" high point in pressure you still need to hit it for proper function. This means you will still be getting the same basic velocity with the same basic boolit weight.

Now lets say you move up to 150 grain boolits. You will use less powder, to be sure, because you are now moving more mass you will hit peak pressure sooner. This will also change where the load pressure point peaks but it will not change the amount of pressure you need to function the gun you have!

Will the boolits be going slower? yes! Will they stop leading? Maybe! In the end all you may succeed in doing is moving the point the load starts to lead up or down the barrel.

Your original post say the bore is .3552 and very smooth.

I have not seen the type of lube your using posted. What I will suggest you may have already tried, Size your boolits to .355! If your using alox switch to something like Lars Carnuba red. Because you need to have a load that must be in the 30,000 PSI range to function the gun I will also suggest your alloy have a BHN number between 20 & 23. This is a boolit alloy that will work in the 30,000 psi pressure range if lubed right.

I'm getting my pressure figures from your 7.7 grain AA7 load. My Lee manual shows this to my about 30,000 PSI.

Loads using WSF, Herco, and Bluedot will also be in this pressure range and use less powder to get there. Roughly about 2 .0 grains less.

I'm interested in how this goes please keep us posted.

[MtGun44]

Glad to read the clarification on the overpressure loads! It sounded like you might
have been kinda of complacent about some pretty serious pressure signs. I can
see that you are not - I was just a bit worried about your safety. Not everyone is as
careful, some are amazingly accepting of serious pressure signs.

I have had really excellent results in 9mm Para with Unique, a fairly slow powder in
several 9mms, surprised your PTman doesn't like it. My Ptman 7 (.45 ACP) has a
very tight chamber, required me to seat my std load 200 SWC about .010 deeper to
avoid jamming the boolit into the nearly non-existent throat. Have you looked for
the possibility that you are jamming these boolits into the throat and raising pressures?
Look for any rifling marks on the boolit shoulder after chambering. Of course, seating
deeper increases pressures, esp in tiny cases like the 9mm Para.

No reason in the world that a plain base boolit with a good lube in a good smooth bbl
should start leading at 1100 fps. I shoot LOTS of .357, 9mm and .44 Mag loads well over
1100 with essentially no leading from AC WW or softer loads. I am not familiar with either
lube, are they versions of 50-50 Alox-beeswax NRA formula lube? If not, I would suggest that
you try some of this, at least one or two groups worth in case it is the lube. Some of
my .357 loads are up in the 1500 fps range with Keith style boolits, which do have generous
lube grooves, no leading with 50-50 NRA formula lube.

Opening up the chamber will likely cost you some accy.

The 121 conical boolit you are talking about - is this the Lyman or the Lee? I have had
excellent results with the Lee 122 conical in several 9mms - but with bigger bores and I use
LBT blue and our own .357 Maximum's red lube, plus a whole lot of them have been run
through my Star with 50-50 Alox-beeswax NRA formula.

Good luck and stay safe.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

My question--have you checked for bullet release clearance in your fired cases? Your comment about loaded cartridges being balky at feeding due to tight chamber tolerances prompted a memory for me.

I've said this here about a zillion times--the 9mm should be treated more like a rifle than a pistol when loaded with cast bullets, and here is another possible example of why I say that. Some years back, a buddy of mine had a tightly-toleranced Springfield Armory 1911A1 in 9mm. That critter could SHOOT, too!

Similar to your sitch with the DW/PM, fatter bullets (.357"-.358") would balk during feeding when W-W brass was used. This was free at the time, being range pick-up as once-fired casings after Department training/quals.

Like your pistol, his SA had .355" grooves and throat about .3555" IIRC. Jacketed bullets ran fine, factory or reloaded using W-W brass. Western Nevada .356" cast bullets gave over-pressure indications prematurely during load workups in W-W brass, and there was some bore leading starting to form after 50 rounds or so. The bullets fit fine, and were hard as could be (about 17-18 BHn), so fit wasn't the cause of leading........gotta be pressure, then.

I started playing around with some of my buddy's fired cases and a few of his bullets. The bullets would not slip-fit into the fired case mouths. I had about 20-25 of my 9mm cast loads left over, these all put up in R-P cases with Lee TC 125 castings running about 1200 FPS. My buddy cleaned his pistol's barrel, then gave the R-P reloads a try. They fed flawlessly, did not lead the bore a bit, and shot VERY accurately. When he finished firing that string, we checked the fired R-P casings, and the WN bullets were a slip fit into the case mouths. R-P cases have thinner case mouth thickness than W-W, and this allowed bullet release without causing pressure excursions due to incomplete bullet release. Just like a rifle--if there isn't .0015"-.002" of clearance at the case neck, some inordinate pressures could result, and inordinate pressures can cause those inordinate pressure impulses to blow right past the sidewall of a bullet and plate the bore ahead of the bullet, which gleefully irons the gasified lead onto the barrel surface for you.

9mm shooting with cast bullets is much like skydiving from a perfectly functioning aircraft--both are unnatural acts.

I generally use harder alloys (92/6/2) and Javelina Alox lube with my 9mm pistols (2 SIGs and 1 Ruger). All require .357" bullets to match their wide-for-caliber groove diameters, which is normal. Although all 3 pistols have "service-sloppy" chamber dimensions, I use R-P 9mm cases to assure sufficient bullet release.

[03lover]

9.3X62AL

I sure am glad you brought this point up. It had crossed my mind that I may not be getting a full release of the bullet because the case mouth may not be able to open up enough in the tight chamber. Actually more than once and then it was forgotten again. I have been focasing so hard on the other issues. This very well could be a key factor in the pressure problem.

I mentioned to someone off line that for my cast bullets I have to use the FC brass because it has the thinnest case walls. I just checked some of those fired rounds and the .3565" diameter bullets start hard and I can't get them past just starting by hand. Fired Remington factory 115 gr. FMJ ammo will allow insertion of a .355" diameter bullet.

I am wondering if this is the nature of a match grade chamber. I now intend to start by getting the front and rear of the chamber gaged, then contact Dan Wesson and see if it meets with their specifications. I am sure if the chamber is not to spec DW will correct it. If it is within specifications, then I am faced with the decision of having the chamber opened up a little and that scares me because accuracy could suffer if too much. How much is enough?

I just got back from firing 130 rounds of the 150 grain RN Cast with a diameter of .3568" using three different powders. Primers looked good throughout the test and there were a few groups worth trying again. Leading was minor. Not enough to mess up the group size.

I TRIED THE SLIP FIT TEST WITH BULLETS OF THE SAME SIZE AND BATCH AND THEY WOULD SLIP IN. LITTLE OR NO ROOM TO SPARE BUT EASILY INSERTED AND REMOVED. NOW WHAT???

I am going to try the same loads that grouped well using a .356" diameter bullet.

[9.3X62AL]

03--

I don't have a 9mm pistol with sufficient accuracy to REALLY gauge fine points, so all the gymnastics of load refinement beyond reliability, safety, or factory load duplication are lost effort in my case. All three of my pistols will safely digest cast boolits of .357" loaded into W-W brass and leave sufficient bullet release. If your component combination is allowing release, I wouldn't take tools to the chamber just yet.

One other point to consider.......what size is the expander spud of your loading die's set? Many of these run .352"-.353", predicated on use with jacketed .355" bullets. If you are loading relatively soft cast bullets as you said initially (WW + 2% tin), the seating of soft bullets into cases prepared with expander spuds .0035"-.004" smaller than bullet diameter is just asking for bullet diameter reduction--which will set up the scenario for bore leading by creating undersized bullets for you, unintentionally. Again--like a rifle cartridge--I use an expander spud of .355" with my .357" 9mm boolits. Also, I intensely dislike taper crimp dies for cast bullets--fortunately, my 9mm and 45 ACP die sets are old enough to have roll crimp seater die configuration. A taper crimp can reduce cast bullet diameter very capably and easily.

[ciPeterF]

This tread certainly has a lot of great info!! 9.2x62AL's post got me thinking.. when I first started shooting Lyman 120gr, I had great accuracy.. 1.5" @ 25yd, but then lately I have leading issues, and accuracy isn't the same.. Checked my notes, and sometime last year I tighted the crimp "just cause".. nothin bad was happening, but I tightened it. Bootlits won't go into fired brass at all, so I bet I'm shaving them on the way "out".. I'll loosen it up and see what happens..

[03lover]

9.3X62AL,

You do bring up some good points. I covered the cast bullet seating issue last year with both my 9mm PM 9 and Rock Island 38 Super. I even looked at 45 ACP.

It all started with my 9mm Star. I was pulling down some test loads that performed very badly and found the bullet diameter had be reduced .0025" at the base and .0003" at the case neck where the crimp line was. This worried me enough to sit at the loading bench the next evening for nearly five hours sorting out every brand of brass I had for both calibers and then sorting out all the types of bullets I intended to use for both cast and jacketed.

I started with the 9mm and tried all four of my sizing dies. Lyman 9mm Carbide, RCBS carbide, RCBS steel and Lee carbide. Every one of the dies would size to a different diameter. Then I noticed some brass sized harder than others. Was it because it was once fired in other guns or the nature of the brass. I had predominately FC, Win and R-P 9mm. I sized one of each brand in the RCBS carbide die and without using an expander, seated a 115 grain FMJ bullet in each and measure the outside diameter of the three1/8" below the case neck. This allowed me to establish which of the three brands I had the thickest or thinnest case walls since I knew the bullet couldn't be changed in size.

The FC brass at the largest spot was .3755" in diameter. The WIN brass measured .0012" larger at .3767" and the R-P brass was the thickest measuring .3797", .0042"larger in diameter or .0021" thicker than the FC.

Using the same die set-up with the three brands of brass would mean the R-P would be the tightest on the bullet and the FC the least tight.

This excercise then went to checking all of my expanders for the 9mm and 38 Super.

I have to try and shorten this story up or I will be writing a book and this forum is not the place for that.

I played with every possible combination of sizing die, brand of brass and size of expander as well as crimping dies. When I didn't have the expander diameter that was right I pulled spare expander plugs out and turned them down to what I needed.

I ended up spending many days at this task but I did end up a several pages of case preparation data I could use to come up with a ready to load shell case in either cartridge for any bullet type or diameter, any brand of brass and be sure in the case of cast, the bullet wouldn't be reduced in size by the brass, would pass my heavy thumb test (I take the loaded round, place the bullet nose against the edge of my loading bench and using my other hand on top of my thumb, press as hard as my thumb will allow, ouch). The bullet had better not move deeper into the case or the same thing can happen during the loading cycle in an auto loader.

Yeh, I have a heck of a bunch of dies, expanders, etc. etc. . The gun shows are a good source of cheap used die sets. Oh well, what else is a retired gun nut going to do.

By the way, I do use a taper crimp die on my 9mm, 38 Super and 45 ACP's, but only to remove the bell and never more than .001 reduction at the case mouth. I find of a number of different brands of taper crimp dies, there is a lot of difference. Lee seems to be quite abrupt and Lyman has a nice long taper and so do most of the RCBS taper crimp dies. The fact is you don't increase bullet retention with more crimp from a taper crimp die. The brass springs back more than the lead bullets and it makes them looser as well as smaller in diameter. Bullet retention is regulated by the sizing die, the size of the expander and bullet diameter used as well as the brand of brass used.

Roll crimp dies can be used for 9mm & 45 ACP but only with a lot a careful attention. Too much crimp can mess up the headspace of the cartridge and too little may not remove enough of the bell. Roll crimp use is usually intended for pistol cartridges not used in auto loaders. Magnums like the 357 and 44 require a fairly heavy roll crimp for full charge loads the prevent the bullets in a cylinder from moving forward under heavy recoil.

Good night all.

[9.3X62AL]

Roll crimp seater dies for 9mm and 45 ACP are ONLY used to turn the case mouth straight, and NO MORE. We're saying the same thing, I do believe.

The W-W brass lots I was using were sourced from factory loads using the 147 grain W-W "sub-sonic" load that FBI convinced USA LEO organizations were such wonderful ammunition. Their case mouths were uniformly thicker than both R-P component brass lots and mixed F-C brass I've scrounged up over time. The W-W cases also have the TIGHTEST DAMN primer pockets of any 9mm brass I've encountered, so I gave it away a few years ago and went solely R-P.

[ChuckS1]

If you have an accurate cast bullet load you like, consider a lighter weight recoil spring. Your pistol will cycle and you won't get the leading.

[03lover]

ChuckS1,

The lighter spring has been mentioned. The pistol came with a ten pound spring, but it caused too many failures to go into battery. When the gun loosened up enough that it would work with a 11 pound spring, Dan Wesson suggested I go the 11lb. one.

It is too bad the slide has to go in both directions under different conditions and load.

I have several things I need to do or try yet. One is to try out a couple of different bullet lubes, just to rule in or out the possibility the lube I am using isn't as good as others. I prefer not to talk to the manufacturers of bullet lube. They all condem the others and theirs is the best. I did speak to Verl Smith at LBT today about a bullet mold and the subject of bullet lube came up. I got an ear full of why his bullet lube out performs all others. The others are simply candle wax or stove top junk.

[Sprue]

You say your working up loads and not crongraphing. Thats not to safe. If you are getting head damage you are loading to hot. Driving a bare base at 1100 with a fast burning powder can cause a melting effect on little bit of lead from the round before so it will snow ball

Quote of the week ?

[03lover]

Sprue,

You raised a point of concern that had been raised before.

Please read my response dated 5-17-09, time 09:59 AM. It explains what reloaders did to avoid unsafe pressures for countless years before chronographs were available to the average reloader. It is what I work to before I get to where I really need to know what the velocities are.

Using only a chronograph without looking for pressure signs can lead to unsafe loads also. Velocity and pressure go hand in hand until the point is reached where the pressure will rise very quickly and velocity increase is much less. This is a bad place to be.

I explained to one person off forum, that the rare occasional high pressure fired rounds were just that, rare and probably due to a bullet being deep seated during the autoloading cycle of the gun. Shooting of that load stopped right there until I could determine the cause.

I have fired hundreds of rounds of 9mm, 38 Super and 357 Magnum doing pressure testing. I have used the same batch of primers throughout the testing and have a extensive record of primer appearence along with the pressure levels of each. I can easily read a primer and know exactely when I have reached the same pressure level of the same bullet load of Factory ammo. I know that has to be safe. Also, I can use the base expansion method, measure the brass right at the top of the extractor bevel with a blade micrometer before fireing and again after firing. When expansion of .001 shows up you are a safe maximum load for that brass. Most factory loads will go from close to zero expansion to between .002" to a high of .003". New brass has to be used for this testing.

Some will argue you can't use the base expansion method with autoloading pistol ammo. I am sorry, but they are wrong or simply don't have the right equipment to make those measurements. You do have to be careful not to pick up the bulge of an unsupported ramped barrel.

[HeavyMetal]

After reading this thread for awhile I think the best suggestion made so far concerns the possiblity that case necks are to thick for the chamber you have.

Poor "release" could be the problem. Have you consider switching to Nickeled case's? I have found nickeled case's to be a bit thinner than brass at the case mouth.

A thinner case and .355 diameter cast boolits might get you where you want to be.

[03lover]

I have checked out the bullet release and that is not the problem.

I recently fired fifty rounds each of three loads that had shown promise in the area of accuracy but still did lead to a minor degree when sized at .3565". The bullets used were a 121 grain conical SWC cast, a 128 grain RN cast and a 150 grain RN cast and sized to ,356" diameter.

In the previous tests the three had been sized to .357" and leaded badly.

This most recent test with these bullets sized at .356" provided the same accuracy and no leading at all after the (150) rounds had been fired. In my case leading occurs when the cast bullets are sized larger than .356".

Even after over (3000) rounds the slide to frame fit is just a bit too tight and does retard slide speed in both directions. I guess it is time to do do a little lapping to free it up. Shooting it in is consuming too darn much ammo.

[robertbank]

I load thousands of 9MM cast lead bullets each year for thre CZ's, STI Trojan and a Tnafoglio. All my loads for for IDPA/IPSC. Since paper targets don't shoot back and die just as easily with loads that meet the Power Factor for both sports 125 ( My loads go to 130) here is my take on your problem.

First, I would go with 124/125 gr bullets. If your barrel has a 1 in 10 twist you may find it to be a tad more accurate than with heavier or lighter bullets.

Secondly there is no reason for you to be chasing high end veloicities. Likely won't improve accuracy, less likely to lead up your gun and paper targets can't tell the difference. I doubt many animals, including man would notice much difference either.

I found powders faster than Win 231 did not perform as well as powders from Win 231 to Unique.

4,1 gr of Win 231 under 124 gr cast bullet sized to either .356 or .357 should do quite well in your gun. Out of my 5" Trojan velocities run around 1090 fps over my Chrony. 4.2 gr of Unique will get you to the same velocity. I have been using Felix Lube and Jakes Blue Lube. Both work well with no leading.

As others have mentioned all you want to do is remove the belling on your case. The bullet is held in the case by tension. Do not roll crimp. Must crimping dies I have seen for the 9MM are taper crimp dies so that should not be an issue.

Of all my 9MM guns my CZ Shadow, when new, and my M&P showed early signs of leading. The Shadow doesn't lead anymore while the M&P still does somewhat. I have come to believe the CZ barrels are much better made than anyting S&W is capable of producing (Five of us of M&P's and they all lead to varying degrees.) My STI Trojan has never leaded nor did any of my FN Hi-Powers.

To remove the lead you are getting go with Chor Boy copper cleaning pad strands wrapped around an old wire brush. A couple of quick swipes with the brush and your lead will be removed.

PM me your email address and I can send you my Spreadsheet containing my 9MM loads shot over my F1 Chrony.

Take Care

Bob

[03lover]

robertbank,

I appreciate your many suggestions. Unfortunately, as threads get longer, many of us miss reading points that have already been made.

I have indicated my Dan Wesson is very tightly fitted and even after over 3000 rounds is still tight enough to cause the slide to be slightly sluggish. That limints me on the choice of recoil springs, mainsprings and loads that will cycle the gun without getting into too high of pressures or velocities. The faster powders like 231 and Unique give me fits. When I load for lower to mid-range velocities, the gun won't cycle properly and when I go up with the powder charges the pressures become too high.

I have been forced to go to slow powders in an attempt to keep both the pressures and velocities down yet cycle the gun with a longer pressure curve. The only loads I have workings for me using cast bullets now, are 121 and 128 grain cast at .356" diameter using 7.7 grains of AA 7, which barely cycles the gun and the 150 grain RN cast at .356" diameter on top of 7.1 grains of WC 820. I fired fifty rounds of each for a total of (150) rounds of cast without any leading and accuracy was good. I am quite sure I am still teasing the upper end of velocities that are on the verge of leading, but for now they work.

All of my adjucting of loads for this gun are so it will cycle properly with the hope that it will become broke in and I will be able to load more like everyone else. That hasn't happened yet. I have decided to go after the overly tight slide to frame fit with a very low abrasive material like JB bore cleaner to see if I can relieve just a little of the sluggish slide action. I will know by the ejection pattern when I get the action I should have out of this pistol.

[robertbank]

Man I have a very tight 1911 but the slide sure isn't sluggish. Before I took any abraisives to the gun I would have a 'smith look it over. There might be something else in play that you havedn't noticed, or are aware of. You said you are running a 10# recoil spring which is certainly light enough and right on for lighter loads for your gun. That gun should cycle easily with light loads in the 9MM. There is a difference between a tightly fitted 1911 and one that is poorly fitted causing binding.

If a load of 5 gr of Unique won't cycle your gun then I suggest there really is something wrong other than it just being tight. That load out of my 5" Tanfoglio and STI Trojan is pooping along at 1100 fps.

To slow a powder loaded in that small case could spike pressures well beyond where you want to be.

Take Care

Bob

[Edubya]

robertbank,

I appreciate your many suggestions. Unfortunately, as threads get longer, many of us miss reading points that have already been made.


03lover, I don't have a thing in the world to offer, in as much of resolving your solution, but I do want to tell you; "Thank you", for not losing it with any of the posters and thank you for airing your research so clearly for all of us to learn and develop our own knowledge from. You have expressed yourself very well and have brought out some extraordinary dialog with a few of the more knowledgeable members of this board.

[918v]

I'd like to share my experience:

1. In the 9mm, case expansion is a reliable indicator of pressure being that it has a tapered case. The higher the pressure, the more the case expands. Most factory loads expand to .391" in my guns. Factory +P+ loads expand to .394". I keep my handloads to .391" using FC brass.

2. 9mm Eurogun chambers have huge throats. My Sigs and Berettas had .360" throats and needed .359" Lasercast bullets to work without leading. I never had an issue of the case not having enough room to expand, but my experience has been limited to Euroguns. I have also noticed that fired cases have a slight curvature to the case mouth, therefore the above mentioned slip-fit test is not productive. A better test is to cast the chamber with cerrosafe. If you don't wanna do that, measure your loaded round vs the fired case. You'll find most chambers will have plenty of room.

My best load ended up being a .358" 125gr Lasercast TC measuring .359" with 231 and FC primers. I loaded 3.8 to 4.2 grains. No leading at all. No pressure signs. Similar groups throughout the charge weight range. All groups were under 1" at 15 yards from a benchrest.

[robertbank]

I don't think your case expansion is much of a pressure test frankly. Best advice is to stay within published load limits and you don't have to worry about pressure signs.

Your loads are well within published load data and are fine.

My favourite load for IDPA/IPSC is 4.1 gr of Win 231 under my Saeco cast 124 gr lead truncated cone bullets. Very accurate and very consistent velocities in all my 9MM guns with no leading in any of them.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

03lover

MtGun44 stated; "No reason in the world that a plain base boolit with a good lube in a good smooth bbl should start leading at 1100 fps. I shoot LOTS of .357, 9mm and .44 Mag loads well over 1100 with essentially no leading from AC WW or softer loads. I am not familiar with either lube, are they versions of 50-50 Alox-beeswax NRA formula lube? If not, I would suggest that you try some of this, at least one or two groups worth in case it is the lube."

From reading all you have done it seems you are missing a basic essential step when it comes to leading; the lube. I too have been loading 9mms for 40+ years and have shot who knows how many such 120-125 gr PB cast bullets out of 9mm's. With a proper lube there should be no leading with the faster powder loads suggested with your cast bullet. I suggest a simple switch to a different lube (I'll suggest Javelina because it always works) and at least eliminate that possibility before you look at doing more esoteric things.

Larry Gibson

[918v]

I don't think your case expansion is much of a pressure test frankly. Best advice is to stay within published load limits and you don't have to worry about pressure signs.

Why not? My case expansion maximum mimicks published data, and often maxes out at lower charge weights depending on the gun. I have even went as far as disassembling factory ammo and reworking the loads just to see whether cases expand consistently at other powder charge weights, and they do.

[robertbank]

Well for one thing case thickness varies from one manufacturer to another. Brass hardens over time with use for another. Lastly, the 9MM is a high pressure round to start with and a case can only expand to the size of the chamber, no more, and it has to everytime to seal off the chamber to allow for pressure to build to allow the bullet to go forward. The case then contracts slightly after the bullet has left the barrel.

Your loads are well under maximum so I am not sure why you are concerned at this point about pressure. Unless you are using very old European guns it has been my experience their modern barrels are all .355. I would expect a bullet sized .357 should be more than enough to seal the bore and not cause leading. Seems to work in the 3 CZ's, 1 Tanfoglio, 1 S&W M&P and 1 STI Trojan I own.

Just out of curiousity where are you getting your case expansion data from? Not sure I have ever seen such data.
Take Care


Bob

[918v]

Well for one thing case thickness varies from one manufacturer to another.

That's why I compare apples to apples, not Winchester to Federal.

Brass hardens over time with use for another.

That's why I use once fired brass. The same powder charge I pulled out of a factory round expands a once-fired case to the same degree as a virgin case.

Lastly, the 9MM is a high pressure round to start with and a case can only expand to the size of the chamber, no more, and it has to everytime to seal off the chamber to allow for pressure to build to allow the bullet to go forward. The case then contracts slightly after the bullet has left the barrel.

The chamber is tapered just as the case. By virtue of geometry, the higher the pressure, the more the case expands.

Your loads are well under maximum so I am not sure why you are concerned at this point about pressure.

I am concerned about pressure because not all my loads are under maximum.

Unless you are using very old European guns it has been my experience their modern barrels are all .355. I would expect a bullet sized .357 should be more than enough to seal the bore and not cause leading. Seems to work in the 3 CZ's, 1 Tanfoglio, 1 S&W M&P and 1 STI Trojan I own.

Do you own a Beretta?

Just out of curiousity where are you getting your case expansion data from? Not sure I have ever seen such data.




I measure the cases myself.

[robertbank]

The case expands to the maximum width of the chamber. It can't expand more than that and it must expand to to seal the chamber off so I fail to see how you can determine pressure since all your cases are expanding to seal the chamber . Some may not contract the same as others but they do contract slighltly or you wouldn't be able to extract the case.

You are obviously convinced of your methods and I don't intend to debate the issue with you. Your loads are well within manual recomendations so you are not near maximum loadings.

No I don't own a Beretta....for a reason. ,

Wait a minute you said "My case expansion maximum mimicks published data". I asked you where you were getting the published data and you reply "I measure the cases myself". OK so what data are you comparing your measurements to? You said, "My case expansion maximum mimicks published data". Well?

Take Care

Bob

[JustSomeGuy]

I'll second the choice of WSF.

I have had succsess with Bluedot as well using the Lee 124 RNL 2r mold.

However I think the slow powder theory your working with has a flaw in it.

Here the fly in the ointment, velocity. If the gun needs 30,000 psi to function your going to need a load that generates 30,000 psi to make it work!

While slower powders my change the location of the "peak" high point in pressure you still need to hit it for proper function. This means you will still be getting the same basic velocity with the same basic boolit weight.

Now lets say you move up to 150 grain boolits. You will use less powder, to be sure, because you are now moving more mass you will hit peak pressure sooner. This will also change where the load pressure point peaks but it will not change the amount of pressure you need to function the gun you have!

Will the boolits be going slower? yes! Will they stop leading? Maybe! In the end all you may succeed in doing is moving the point the load starts to lead up or down the barrel.

Your original post say the bore is .3552 and very smooth.

I have not seen the type of lube your using posted. What I will suggest you may have already tried, Size your boolits to .355! If your using alox switch to something like Lars Carnuba red. Because you need to have a load that must be in the 30,000 PSI range to function the gun I will also suggest your alloy have a BHN number between 20 & 23. This is a boolit alloy that will work in the 30,000 psi pressure range if lubed right.

I'm getting my pressure figures from your 7.7 grain AA7 load. My Lee manual shows this to my about 30,000 PSI.

Loads using WSF, Herco, and Bluedot will also be in this pressure range and use less powder to get there. Roughly about 2 .0 grains less.

I'm interested in how this goes please keep us posted.

I must agree with HeavyMetal... The Brinell hardness of the bullet is the key to adjusting your loads for no leading. It is not the velocity but the pressure that destroys the bullet's ability to stay together after "upsetting" and continue as a competent mass. Your loads, sizing and lube aside, should not exceed more than 90% of the ability of the bullet to retain its shape rather than becoming a moving puddle in your barrel. There are rifle shooters pushing lead bullets to over 2600fps without leading, but they have a Brinell hardness of about 31 or so and can withstand pressures of about 42,000 psi. Wheel weights by themselves have a Brinell Hardness of about 10, Linotype about 22, while pure lead is about 6 or so. Heat Treated bullets (though the exact methods of heat treating a bullet are varied) may be as hard as the previously mentioned 31.

You can apply a simple formula to see if your bullets are hard enough using the pressures necessary to function your pistol. First determine what the hardness of your bullets are. If you don't have a tester you can estimate based on the formula you use vs some known hardness found in some of the bullet casting handbooks. Multiply that hardness by 1422 (a constant) to determine the pressure the bullet will withstand without deteriorating in the barrel. Thus, for say, Linotype metal of about 22 X 1422 we get a figure of 31,284 for the "yield strength" of that metal under pressure. Now to be safe, because a bullet will not retain its shape if it reaches that "yield pressure" you must not exceed 90% of that pressure or about 28,155 for Linotype metal.

The other thing is that your barrel had a place where the rifling starts and this should be about 10-20 thousandths of an inch (sometimes more... I don't remember what it is for a 9mm pistol but you could ask your buddy at DW) from where the ogive of the bullet is... that is, the bullet should not touch the rifling when it is in the chamber of the gun before firing. If it does or this "lead" (pronounced "leed" not led... English can be soooo confusing!) is not sufficient, then pressures will soar and you will again have a puddle in your gun or shrapnel in your hand. Thus the OAL of the loaded cartridge is also important and should not be overlooked. I add this because others who may not have your experience may read this thread and overlook this specification. I'm sure that you have taken this into account as you seem an experienced reloader already.

Whatever you decide to do, from applying a chamber reamer to adjusting your bullets to a different size it will take some mechanical work to solve your problem it seems. As to resizing the bullets as cast, remember that changing their diameter more than usual can also reduce their hardness and put you back into a cycle of "chasing the dragon" to get the lead out!

[9.3X62AL]

JSG et al--

The longer I play around with cast boolits, the less convinced I am that many hard and fast rules can be universally applied to their use. I think the best we can do when confronted by a problem like that presented by the original poster is have several routes to success ready at hand, and try them one at time--or even in concert--until the desired result is obtained.

The 9mm Luger, the 40 S&W, and the 10mm are not "beginner calibers" for cast boolit shooters, or really for reloaders in general. They operate at rifle-like pressures, can be VERY sensitive to variations in bullet seating depth, and in the case of the 9mm there is considerable variation in chamber specs, component tolerances, and groove diameters. In short, the 9mm can really cause headaches for cast boolit hobbyists.

[MtGun44]

Al is really right on not being beginner calibers. I do not load for 10 or 40, but there is
no doubt in my mind that the 40 is running right on the edge. Having a boolit push in to
a 9mm has some real potential for adventure, too. The huge range of dimensions on Euro9s
is amazing. Not easy for the beginner to get a handle on, not the best cal to start with.

I recommend .45 ACP (taper crimp!) and .38 Spl to guys starting out that want to avoid
drama and headaches.

I have communicated with 03lover quite a bit via PM and he is doing a lot of the right stuff,
and is not unsafe, as I had initially worried. I think he is pretty correct in what he is doing,
but if I had his gun I would get some 400 grit grease based silicon carbide polishing compound
and work up a bit more slack in the slide to frame fit. I also forget the lube he is using, and
while that may be a key issue, it is interesting to note that he has had some significant
success with his latest loads.

That said, I am glad that my std 9mm cast load works great in my Beretta 92, Sig P6, Browning
HP and Astra 600 without any leading or problems. Lucky for me. I am impressed with
03lover's patience with both the reloading project, and a few of us out here that have
replied.

Bill

[robertbank]

After reading this thread for awhile I think the best suggestion made so far concerns the possiblity that case necks are to thick for the chamber you have.

Poor "release" could be the problem. Have you consider switching to Nickeled case's? I have found nickeled case's to be a bit thinner than brass at the case mouth.

A thinner case and .355 diameter cast boolits might get you where you want to be.

Just a point. I tried .355 bullets in my 9MM guns and found I had bullets tumbling on me at 1100 fps +/-. AT .357 that all stopped. Yet to encounter leading using my Saeco 124 gr truncated cone bullets cast from WW and water dropped.

Take Care

Bob

[MtGun44]

In my and many friends experience, .355 rarely works in any Euro9. .357 or sometimes even
larger is much more often successful. The rub comes with a tight chamber, which is fortunately
fairly rare on Euro9s.

Bill